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Revelation
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Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:56 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... lu-460819/ says:

The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch says that, while Airbus recommends using the cup-holder, the size of cups used by the carrier on the route made lifting them from the holder difficult.

"This incompatibility generally discouraged use of the cup holder, despite the policy," it states, adding that the crew naturally tended to place cups on the fold-out table in front of them – making them "vulnerable" to being knocked over.

The coffee on the A330 captain's table was spilled, with a small amount falling on the left-hand audio control panel, which immediately malfunctioned and subsequently failed. Some 20min later the first officer's corresponding control panel also became hot and failed – although the precise reason for this was not clear.

VHF radio transmissions and public-address announcements were affected by the malfunctions and the captain chose to divert to Shannon, with the precautionary use of cockpit oxygen masks owing to electrical smoke emanating from the panel.

The end result was a diversion to Shannon.

The airline now provides lids for coffee served in the cockpit and "seeks" to find more appropriately sized cups.
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aumaverick
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:15 pm

Pilot ratings - $80,000
Airbus A330 - $265,000,000
Starbucks Venti Pumpkin Spice Late - $5.25
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:17 pm

Fate is the Hunter, for movie buffs.
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Amiga500
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:18 pm

Would it not be beyond the wit of Airbus to incorporate a flexible size cup holder that can be racheted to suit the actual cup size?

Indeed, given the risk of spillage of hot liquid in the cockpit at an inopportune time* - its surprising that pilots are allowed to have them merely resting on the table in the cockpit anyway.


*i.e. all over the pilots lap when ATC request course/elevation change for avoidance and the other pilot is out of the cockpit on a pee break.
 
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Polot
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:19 pm

For the people who don’t want to read the article, it was Condor.
 
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zeke
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:19 pm

NZ had a significant fire on a 737 due to coffee being spilt on the centre console.

This has always been a possibility for MH370 also for me
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Amiga500
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:23 pm

and they should be drinking tea anyway.

Uncouth shower :shakes head:
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:34 pm

aumaverick wrote:
Pilot ratings - $80,000
Airbus A330 - $265,000,000
Starbucks Venti Pumpkin Spice Late - $5.25
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless

My vote in the court of public opinion goes to convict Condor for using cheap ass tiny coffee cups that one must pry out of the cup holder, and for not providing lids.

Amiga500 wrote:
Would it not be beyond the wit of Airbus to incorporate a flexible size cup holder that can be racheted to suit the actual cup size?

Indeed, given the risk of spillage of hot liquid in the cockpit at an inopportune time* - its surprising that pilots are allowed to have them merely resting on the table in the cockpit anyway.

*i.e. all over the pilots lap when ATC request course/elevation change for avoidance and the other pilot is out of the cockpit on a pee break.

If I had written this, I would be tagged for hating on Team A.

I presume Airbus did count on the cup holder being used, and did not count on the airline serving hot coffee in tiny cups with no lids.

They may have to issue cup holder inserts to adapt to the cups being used by the various airlines.
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Antarius
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:38 pm

Polot wrote:
For the people who don’t want to read the article, it was Condor.


You are a gentleman and a scholar.
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:44 pm

I hope the airline sees the banality of this incident, and that repercussions for the captain aren't too severe. Everyone can make a mistake like that. And when it happened, he did the right thing and diverted.

Yes, he shouldn't have put the cup on the tray table. But this is something that happens all the time. I've seen crews balance open cups of coffee on the radio stack on the center pedestal on Boeings as well.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:47 pm

aumaverick wrote:
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless


I've never seen a lid for hot drinks in any of the planes I ever flew.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
aumaverick wrote:
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless


I've never seen a lid for hot drinks in any of the planes I ever flew.

Every BoB airline in Europe I can think of has lids for the hot drinks they serve. Thomas Cook UK also has lids for hot drinks.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:56 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
aumaverick wrote:
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless


I've never seen a lid for hot drinks in any of the planes I ever flew.

Every BoB airline in Europe I can think of has lids for the hot drinks they serve. Thomas Cook UK also has lids for hot drinks.


Not any of the ones I flew for, and I do raid the pantries from time to time.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:05 pm

I wonder what that cabin announcement was like.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Not any of the ones I flew for, and I do raid the pantries from time to time.

Himm, I read this as "I do raid the panties from time to time"...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Amiga500
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
If I had written this, I would be tagged for hating on Team A.


... and rightly so. We don't want to encourage you yankees too much. ;)


Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:16 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
aumaverick wrote:
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless


I've never seen a lid for hot drinks in any of the planes I ever flew.

Every BoB airline in Europe I can think of has lids for the hot drinks they serve. Thomas Cook UK also has lids for hot drinks.


It really is an example of how varied different airlines are with their service and policies. The policy for the airline I fly for is that hot beverages for passengers do not require lids, but they are a MUST on any going into the flight deck, and must be on the drink prior to entry.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:17 pm

Polot wrote:
For the people who don’t want to read the article, it was Condor.


Condor doesnt have A330s, parent Thomas Cook has. And indeed, it was a TC aircraft on a wet lease.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:20 pm

zeke wrote:
NZ had a significant fire on a 737 due to coffee being spilt on the centre console.

This has always been a possibility for MH370 also for me

If I'm understanding your post correctly, you think that a possible spilled drink would cause a 777 to mysteriously turn 150 degrees, knock out any and all communications and ATC transponder capabilities, and probably continue to fly for 7-8 hours before flaming out?
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:20 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
If I had written this, I would be tagged for hating on Team A.


... and rightly so. We don't want to encourage you yankees too much. ;)


Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?

I love coffee. Dang my doctor for limiting me to 2 cups a day (I used to drink two 10 cup pots)! But I have an exceptional and always rotating collection of lidded mugs. People who cannot handle the deliciously hot beverage do not deserve it and should be denied the nectar of the gods.

Lightsaber
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DarthLobster
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm

We live in a society where Braille is required on drive up ATMs but no one’s figured out how to protect against hot coffee spills on commercial airplanes without bankrupting the airline or manufacturer.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:38 pm

That audio panel should have been sealed. I worked for a time on cockpit audio panels - not the A330 model but others - and the designs I was involved with took into account spilled beverages. Knobs had O-ring seals and such. But it's more of a probability thing than a sure thing, it appears.

It's definitely not an A vs B thing. The cockpit audio is a contracted item in almost every case. Talk to the supplier.
 
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zeke
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:43 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
If I'm understanding your post correctly, you think that a possible spilled drink would cause a 777 to mysteriously turn 150 degrees, knock out any and all communications and ATC transponder capabilities, and probably continue to fly for 7-8 hours before flaming out?


If you ever got to see the amount of electronics under the centre console you would understand.

In this example they lost radios and they had smoke in the cockpit. The NZ incident was as a result of a coffee spill some 4 hours earlier by a different crew on the previous flight, the sugar in the coffee dried however was electrically conductive enough to cause burning and multiple warnings, like dual hydraulic failure.

https://taic.org.nz/sites/default/files ... vFINAL.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:53 pm

I remember there was a 707 in Yemen or somewhere around there in the 90s I think, and during the climb something spilled onto the center panel (I think it was water) and that caused it to pitch up to a very steep angle and stall. They only recovered by some 3000ft I think. It's pretty stunning what a simple liquid can do to a plane

Edit: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19850815-0 Apparently 3 people died because of the upset. So a glass of water killed some people on a plane.
Last edited by OA940 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:54 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
I wonder what that cabin announcement was like.


*static* stupid *static* ass *static* coffee *static static static* Shannon
 
KFTG
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:10 pm

This happened to a UAL 747-400 a while back.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:37 pm

You'd think there would be a few drip shields/channels in the flight deck :faint:
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YYZYYT
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:39 pm

My Honda has a spring-loaded cup holder that allows any size cup, to a limit, to be held snugly. I guess they out-engineered Airbus.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:57 pm

VSMUT wrote:
aumaverick wrote:
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless


I've never seen a lid for hot drinks in any of the planes I ever flew.


And I've seen coffee cups with lids still spill coffee.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:04 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
You'd think there would be a few drip shields/channels in the flight deck :faint:


You won't believe it, but there are actually planes out there where the pilots don't even have a table for their hot and/or wet meals, forcing them to balance it precariously on their laps!


Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not any of the ones I flew for, and I do raid the pantries from time to time.

Himm, I read this as "I do raid the panties from time to time"...


:lol:

That only happens in the hotels!
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not any of the ones I flew for, and I do raid the pantries from time to time.

Himm, I read this as "I do raid the panties from time to time"...


Dang pilots. :lol:

I had to rub my eyes when I read that too.
 
kiowa
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:16 pm

VSMUT wrote:
aumaverick wrote:
Cost of diverting a commercial flight due to pilot incompetence for not using a lid - Priceless


I've never seen a lid for hot drinks in any of the planes I ever flew.


United provides lids with cups on all liquids going into the cockpit. I think they even are a different color for flight deck use.
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
If I had written this, I would be tagged for hating on Team A.


... and rightly so. We don't want to encourage you yankees too much. ;)


Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?

I love coffee. Dang my doctor for limiting me to 2 cups a day (I used to drink two 10 cup pots)! But I have an exceptional and always rotating collection of lidded mugs. People who cannot handle the deliciously hot beverage do not deserve it and should be denied the nectar of the gods.

Lightsaber


I fly an A330 and I have a love for coffee that is equal to my love for aviation. I bring my own specialty coffee beans, grinder and French press coffee pot on my trips. It takes me as much time to make a fresh coffee as it does going to the lavatory. The business class mug is porcelain and fits well in the holder. And once settled with à beautiful coffee in your hands, oceanic clearance received and into the setting sun life is good!

Enjoy!
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
My vote in the court of public opinion goes to convict Condor for using cheap ass tiny coffee cups that one must pry out of the cup holder, and for not providing lids.

I'll give you one out of three for accuracy.
Cheap - most probably
Tiny - where do you get that from?
Not providing lids - another where did you get that from?

You might be correct in both cases, but you could equally well be wrong. Others here who failed to read the original article may well trust your analysis. And this is how misinformation spreads.

A cheap coffee cup, with weak paper-thin (lol) walls, could well be a perfect fit when cold & dry, as tested on the production line.
But filled with hot beverage, gravity & heat might cause the lower section to swell out after the cup was placed in the holder, wedging it firmly in position.

The same might apply to an overly large cup, where the lower section is soft and pliable enough to enter the smaller cup holder, but somewhat less accommodating on it's subsequent withdrawal.

Should Condor/Thos Cook/Airbus have anticipated this scenario? Probably
Should pilots bring their own (superior) beverage containers with them? Yes, one marked "The Boss, and one marked "The Grease Monkey"
Has it happened before? Yes
Will it happen again? Definitely
Have I just spilled a drink on my keyboard? Oh 8&[[ocks, not again....
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:21 pm

KFTG wrote:
This happened to a UAL 747-400 a while back.
Don't remember the 747 but they did divert a 777 back in 2011.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... ht-divert/
Cockpit coffee spill causes U.S. flight to divert
TORONTO (AP) — A pilot’s spilled coffee accidentally triggered a hijacking alert and caused a United Airlines flight from Chicago to Frankfurt, Germany, to make an unscheduled stop in Canada.

A Transport Canada report said United Flight 940 was diverted to Toronto late Monday and landed safely at Pearson International Airport. The coffee spill caused distress signals to go out, including Code 7500, which means hijacking or unlawful interference.

The report said that Canada’s defense department was notified but that, with the help of United dispatch staff, the flight crew confirmed it to be a communication issue and not a hijacking.

The report on Transport Canada’s website said the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration reported that United’s corporate office had indicated that the pilot “had inadvertently squawked a 7500 code after spilling coffee on the aircraft’s radio equipment, which interfered with the communications equipment.”

“The flight crew had advised that they had communication problems and subsequently reported that they had some navigation problems as well, and from there the pilot in the command diverted the flight on to Toronto,” Maryse Durette, a Transport Canada spokeswoman, said Wednesday.

United spokesman Rahsaan Johnson said Tuesday that the pilot elected to divert the flight rather than cross the Atlantic Ocean while experiencing a communications problem. United did not immediately return a call Wednesday to comment on the reported coffee mishap.

The Boeing 777 was carrying 241 passengers and 14 crew members. Mr. Johnson said United flew them back to Chicago on another plane and put them up in hotel rooms overnight. They were scheduled to resume their flight to Germany on Tuesday.
 
n6238p
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:43 pm

Now I may not have the expertise of some of the professionals in this thread but sometimes, just sometimes the pilot sitting next to me asks for a cup of coffee but no lid. Sometimes they even take the lid off to put cream or sugar inside. I know, I know, front page news stuff but sometimes there’s no lid a drink sitting on a table. As a matter of fact at my company, I only get a lid if I ask for hot coffee or water.

We try not to carry liquids over the center console but sometimes, that’s just what happens. Let’s not read into this too deeply. Someone spilled coffee and it got on the stuff. The end. That’s the story. Goofus messes up. There’s no procedure in the world that’ll prevent that from happening 100%.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
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United787
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not any of the ones I flew for, and I do raid the pantries from time to time.

Himm, I read this as "I do raid the panties from time to time"...


OMG, so did I... LOL
 
N505fx
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:12 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
If I had written this, I would be tagged for hating on Team A.


... and rightly so. We don't want to encourage you yankees too much. ;)


Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?


Duh...its called the Dreamholder Max!
 
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:36 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Revelation wrote:
My vote in the court of public opinion goes to convict Condor for using cheap ass tiny coffee cups that one must pry out of the cup holder, and for not providing lids.

I'll give you one out of three for accuracy.
Cheap - most probably
Tiny - where do you get that from?
Not providing lids - another where did you get that from?

TFA says, without needing to open the article:

The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch says that, while Airbus recommends using the cup-holder, the size of cups used by the carrier on the route made lifting them from the holder difficult.

"This incompatibility generally discouraged use of the cup holder, despite the policy," it states, adding that the crew naturally tended to place cups on the fold-out table in front of them – making them "vulnerable" to being knocked over.

I think it's fair to presume the size issue is because the cups are smaller than the ones the original design targeted. It's certainly been my experience on many airlines that the size of the cups have not been increasing since the A330 entered service. And, all other things being constant, a smaller cup is a cheaper cup. In this case, tiny refers to the difficulty of prying them out of the cup holder.

The lid comment does come from reading the linked article.

So, I'm comfortable claiming a 3 for 3 sweep, only a true pedant would assert otherwise.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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AWACSooner
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:39 pm

zeke wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
If I'm understanding your post correctly, you think that a possible spilled drink would cause a 777 to mysteriously turn 150 degrees, knock out any and all communications and ATC transponder capabilities, and probably continue to fly for 7-8 hours before flaming out?


If you ever got to see the amount of electronics under the centre console you would understand.

In this example they lost radios and they had smoke in the cockpit. The NZ incident was as a result of a coffee spill some 4 hours earlier by a different crew on the previous flight, the sugar in the coffee dried however was electrically conductive enough to cause burning and multiple warnings, like dual hydraulic failure.

https://taic.org.nz/sites/default/files ... vFINAL.pdf

That still doesn't make sense.
If MH370 REALLY had that issue due to spillage, they could've turned the aircraft around and returned to KUL...even if squawk and radios were knocked out.
 
bennett123
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:43 pm

I note from the OP, that ‘the carrier subsequently changed its procedures’.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Revelation wrote:
My vote in the court of public opinion goes to convict Condor for using cheap ass tiny coffee cups that one must pry out of the cup holder, and for not providing lids.

I'll give you one out of three for accuracy.
Cheap - most probably
Tiny - where do you get that from?
Not providing lids - another where did you get that from?

TFA says, without needing to open the article:

The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch says that, while Airbus recommends using the cup-holder, the size of cups used by the carrier on the route made lifting them from the holder difficult.

"This incompatibility generally discouraged use of the cup holder, despite the policy," it states, adding that the crew naturally tended to place cups on the fold-out table in front of them – making them "vulnerable" to being knocked over.

I think it's fair to presume the size issue is because the cups are smaller than the ones the original design targeted. It's certainly been my experience on many airlines that the size of the cups have not been increasing since the A330 entered service. And, all other things being constant, a smaller cup is a cheaper cup. In this case, tiny refers to the difficulty of prying them out of the cup holder.

The lid comment does come from reading the linked article.

So, I'm comfortable claiming a 3 for 3 sweep, only a true pedant would assert otherwise.

Actually, no. If the cups were smaller than the holder was designed for, they'd be easy to lift them; if the cups are "fatter" than the holder was designed for, then it's harder to remove them.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Water resistance clearly need to be built into the system or more cup holders.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:56 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?


I was waiting for someone to mention this...

That case is often cited as an example of a frivolous decision, but it isn't. McDonalds was not liable because the plaintiff spilled the coffee, but rather because it intentionally keeps (kept?) its coffee significantly hotter than usual - far hotter than you or the average person would expect.

I've spilled coffee on myself (who hasn't?), and it's usually not a burn, just a mess to clean up. Because of the unexpected high temperature, the McDonald's coffee caused very significant burns (3rd degree burns over the plaintiffs legs and groin). In fact, there was also a long history of significant injuries as a result of McDonald's coffee temperature, which McDonads knew but ignored.

And, by the way, liability was split between the plaintiff (for not being careful), and McDonald's (for creating an unusual and unexpected danger).
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:01 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
zeke wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
If I'm understanding your post correctly, you think that a possible spilled drink would cause a 777 to mysteriously turn 150 degrees, knock out any and all communications and ATC transponder capabilities, and probably continue to fly for 7-8 hours before flaming out?


If you ever got to see the amount of electronics under the centre console you would understand.

In this example they lost radios and they had smoke in the cockpit. The NZ incident was as a result of a coffee spill some 4 hours earlier by a different crew on the previous flight, the sugar in the coffee dried however was electrically conductive enough to cause burning and multiple warnings, like dual hydraulic failure.

https://taic.org.nz/sites/default/files ... vFINAL.pdf

That still doesn't make sense.
If MH370 REALLY had that issue due to spillage, they could've turned the aircraft around and returned to KUL...even if squawk and radios were knocked out.


And if they were overcome smoke/fumes from something smouldering?
 
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zeke
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:32 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
That still doesn't make sense.
If MH370 REALLY had that issue due to spillage, they could've turned the aircraft around and returned to KUL...even if squawk and radios were knocked out.


The problem with these sorts of electrical issues is what you have left and what warnings are presented may not be all that obvious.

For this crew there was a direct association between the spillage and the problem, with the NZ case the spillage occurred on the previous flight. The 737 is rather mechanical, whereas the 777 does many things automatically. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 777 sensors a dual hydraulic fail, the RAT deploys and APU starts automatically. At the same time the crew could be dealing with smoke in the cockpit unable to see.
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lightsaber
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:00 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?


I was waiting for someone to mention this...

That case is often cited as an example of a frivolous decision, but it isn't. McDonalds was not liable because the plaintiff spilled the coffee, but rather because it intentionally keeps (kept?) its coffee significantly hotter than usual - far hotter than you or the average person would expect.

I've spilled coffee on myself (who hasn't?), and it's usually not a burn, just a mess to clean up. Because of the unexpected high temperature, the McDonald's coffee caused very significant burns (3rd degree burns over the plaintiffs legs and groin). In fact, there was also a long history of significant injuries as a result of McDonald's coffee temperature, which McDonads knew but ignored.

And, by the way, liability was split between the plaintiff (for not being careful), and McDonald's (for creating an unusual and unexpected danger).

Gourmet coffee drinkers brew their coffee hotter.

Yes, there is risk, but those of us who love great coffee know the point of high pressure brewing, such as espresso, is to improve the flavor. While McDonald's doesn't do that, many of us associate a hotter coffee with a better experience.

Split liability just means the plaintiff received less.

My coffee I expect hot, hence good mugs to keep from burning anyone with a spill.

There is a fix, make the airlines buy special mugs for the cockpit. They'll be pricey.

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DocLightning
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:19 pm

From what I can see, the A330 cup holder is a slightly tapered tube sticking out of a vertical surface and it seems to be placed in an unergonomic place. By contrast, the 777 cup holder is a sophisticated design that can hold a regular paper coffee cup, a coffee cup with a handle, or a soda can all with good fit and ease, although it is awkwardly located pretty far aft on the side console. It would seem to me that Airbus definitely has some room for improvement in this department, since forbidding pilots from drinking any beverage while in the cockpit is not a reasonable solution.
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Antarius
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:24 pm

zeke wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
That still doesn't make sense.
If MH370 REALLY had that issue due to spillage, they could've turned the aircraft around and returned to KUL...even if squawk and radios were knocked out.


The problem with these sorts of electrical issues is what you have left and what warnings are presented may not be all that obvious.

For this crew there was a direct association between the spillage and the problem, with the NZ case the spillage occurred on the previous flight. The 737 is rather mechanical, whereas the 777 does many things automatically. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 777 sensors a dual hydraulic fail, the RAT deploys and APU starts automatically. At the same time the crew could be dealing with smoke in the cockpit unable to see.


And this happened exactly after the goodbye and handover and then resulted in a spectacular set of radar avoidance maneuvers straddling a border.

Vegas wouldnt even take those odds.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
firemansparky
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Re: Coffee Spill Forced A330 Diversion

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:53 pm

N505fx wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
If I had written this, I would be tagged for hating on Team A.


... and rightly so. We don't want to encourage you yankees too much. ;)


Dunno if Boeing have a good cupholder or not either - if so they probably have a buzzword acronym for it - if not - have they learned nothing from that stupid judge awarding compo to that stupid clown that spilled the McDonalds coffee over themselves in the car somewhere in the States?


Duh...its called the Dreamholder Max!


Ouch!

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