davidjohnson6
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Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:59 pm

Air Nostrum will cease the 6x weekly flight from Logrono (RJL) to Madrid (MAD)
Logrono will then no longer have scheduled passenger flights

Other airports in Spain that currently have schedule passenger flights but which look precariously close to being ghost airports include Badajoz (albeit PSO money guarantees the route), Burgos (3x weekly to Barcelona), Leon, Lleida and Salamanca
 
Cunard
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:53 pm

Regarding Salamanca, along with the seasonal flights to Palma by Iberia Regional (Air Nostrum) the airport also sees seasonal service to Las Palmas, Malaga and Palma by Air Europa.

It's always surprised me that Salamanca isn't been better served especially by the lack of low cost carriers. Salamanca is a popular tourist destination, it's old town is a UNESCO world heritage site with it's impressive Roman cathedral, it is also a world renowned University city. Salamanca is also the starting or finishing point for River Cruises on the River Duero, which has seen tremendous growth over last few years.

Outside of Spain it's a rather tedious journey trying getting to Salamanca, although the train from Madrid is fast at just over two hours I'm really surprised that the likes of Ryanair have never considered flying there.

Burgos is too close to Bilbao or Santander, Leon is close to Grenada or Malaga and Lleida is very seasonal with Air Nostrum operating to the three Balearic Islands of Ibiza, Mallorca and Minorca.

Badajoz has service to Barcelona and Madrid with seasonal service to Tenerife North by Air Nostrum, it has a long runway, a decent terminal and has no local competing airports so hopefully it will be fine.
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davidjohnson6
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:01 am

Cunard wrote:
Burgos is too close to Bilbao or Santander, Leon is close to Grenada or Malaga and Lleida is very seasonal


Leon airport is nowhere near Granada or Malaga. It is instead a long way to the north of Madrid, in between Oviedo and Valladolid
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:11 am

To become another airport for airport storage and scrapping? :stirthepot:

Cheers,
Michael
 
SCQ83
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:10 am

Source? I wonder if this has to do with Iberia. It seems that Air Nostrum is also not renovating their agreement with Vigo (where traffic is collapsing, -21% last month). Maybe Iberia needs more Air Nostrum planes so YW gets rid of those crazy subsidised routes which might not make a lot of money for them even with a healthy subsidy. With the high-speed train approaching to the north, it is a question of time that Iberia to Madrid is "airnostrumized" to LCG, VGO and OVD.

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Other airports in Spain that currently have schedule passenger flights but which look precariously close to being ghost airports include Badajoz (albeit PSO money guarantees the route), Burgos (3x weekly to Barcelona), Leon, Lleida and Salamanca


There are more ghost airports in Spain. At least:

- Albacete (although it is a military base, no commercial flights anymore; it used to have)
- Ciudad Real
- Córdoba (it used to have commercial flights)
- Huesca
- Vitoria is a ghost airport on and off. Now they subsidise again Ryanair so they have a few routes. Otherwise it is a ghost airport.

Cunard wrote:
Regarding Salamanca, along with the seasonal flights to Palma by Iberia Regional (Air Nostrum) the airport also sees seasonal service to Las Palmas, Malaga and Palma by Air Europa.

It's always surprised me that Salamanca isn't been better served especially by the lack of low cost carriers. Salamanca is a popular tourist destination, it's old town is a UNESCO world heritage site with it's impressive Roman cathedral, it is also a world renowned University city. Salamanca is also the starting or finishing point for River Cruises on the River Duero, which has seen tremendous growth over last few years.

Outside of Spain it's a rather tedious journey trying getting to Salamanca, although the train from Madrid is fast at just over two hours I'm really surprised that the likes of Ryanair have never considered flying there.


Salamanca is only 1h36' to Madrid by Alvia (not even AVE; with Alvia meaning it is far cheaper in Renfe's fees). 200 km. by car/bus. The additional problem with Salamanca, León or Burgos (or even larger cities like Zaragoza or Valladolid) is that they do not have any "hinterland" to speak of. There is literally nothing around those cities, so local demand is quite limited even if the city itself (like Zaragoza) is relatively big.

Cunard wrote:
Burgos is too close to Bilbao or Santander, Leon is close to Grenada or Malaga and Lleida is very seasonal with Air Nostrum operating to the three Balearic Islands of Ibiza, Mallorca and Minorca.


I reckon you mean Córdoba is close to Granada or Málaga (???). Also Burgos is close to MAD. Only 245 km.

Cunard wrote:
Badajoz has service to Barcelona and Madrid with seasonal service to Tenerife North by Air Nostrum, it has a long runway, a decent terminal and has no local competing airports so hopefully it will be fine.


BJZ is now PSO to Madrid and Barcelona so those routes will stay. Extremadura is the poorest region in Spain, and since the high-speed train Madrid-Badajoz-Lisbon has been put on hold for now as the Portuguese government will not build it, they got this as a kind of courtesy.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:37 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Air Nostrum will cease the 6x weekly flight from Logrono (RJL) to Madrid (MAD)
Logrono will then no longer have scheduled passenger flights

Other airports in Spain that currently have schedule passenger flights but which look precariously close to being ghost airports include Badajoz (albeit PSO money guarantees the route), Burgos (3x weekly to Barcelona), Leon, Lleida and Salamanca


Can you provide a source please?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:52 am

A good reminder that "infrastructure spending" has to make some sense even if you have free, unlimited money available.
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lesfalls
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:59 am

When do the flights exactly end?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
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albertocsc
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:09 am

Source:
https://nuevecuatrouno.com/2019/09/11/a ... s-charter/

It seems that the reason to end these flights is that La Rioja government ended subsidies to Air Nostrum. Government said they will explore other options before renovating it:
https://www.20minutos.es
/noticia/3760883/0/gobierno-asegura-que-estudiaran-otras-opciones-se-reuniran-con-otras-companias-antes-renovar-con-air-nostrum/
 
yuomi
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:20 am

Is this a common thing for regional governments to do in Spain?

I have a vague recollection of the Asturias local govt doing this last year with OVD, resulting in it losing both its LHR (IB) and LTN (EZ) routes pretty much overnight, despite them doing pretty good loads.

Its since got an (I think) x3 weekly LGW flight with (shudder) VY, but nothing like the service it had before...
 
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SQ22
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:36 am

albertocsc wrote:
Source:
https://nuevecuatrouno.com/2019/09/11/a ... s-charter/

It seems that the reason to end these flights is that La Rioja government ended subsidies to Air Nostrum. Government said they will explore other options before renovating it:
https://www.20minutos.es
/noticia/3760883/0/gobierno-asegura-que-estudiaran-otras-opciones-se-reuniran-con-otras-companias-antes-renovar-con-air-nostrum/


Thanks.
 
Andy33
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:41 am

yuomi wrote:
Is this a common thing for regional governments to do in Spain?

I have a vague recollection of the Asturias local govt doing this last year with OVD, resulting in it losing both its LHR (IB) and LTN (EZ) routes pretty much overnight, despite them doing pretty good loads.

Its since got an (I think) x3 weekly LGW flight with (shudder) VY, but nothing like the service it had before...


It is common for regional governments to provide "pump priming" finance, for a new route for a fixed period, after which routes are expected to stand on their own. In the past Ryanair has made lots of money this way. The alternative is a PSO grant, which again will be for a fixed term, after which it has to be put out to tender again, or dropped altogether
.
Loadings are no guide to whether the route is viable without external funding unless you know the actual revenue and costs too, and of course viable does mean that it is sufficiently profitable to justify keeping the plane on the route rather than finding somewhere else to send it, not that it just breaks even.
 
yuomi
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:53 am

Andy33 wrote:
yuomi wrote:
Is this a common thing for regional governments to do in Spain?

I have a vague recollection of the Asturias local govt doing this last year with OVD, resulting in it losing both its LHR (IB) and LTN (EZ) routes pretty much overnight, despite them doing pretty good loads.

Its since got an (I think) x3 weekly LGW flight with (shudder) VY, but nothing like the service it had before...


It is common for regional governments to provide "pump priming" finance, for a new route for a fixed period, after which routes are expected to stand on their own. In the past Ryanair has made lots of money this way. The alternative is a PSO grant, which again will be for a fixed term, after which it has to be put out to tender again, or dropped altogether
.
Loadings are no guide to whether the route is viable without external funding unless you know the actual revenue and costs too, and of course viable does mean that it is sufficiently profitable to justify keeping the plane on the route rather than finding somewhere else to send it, not that it just breaks even.


Interesting, thanks!
 
SCQ83
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:05 pm

yuomi wrote:
Is this a common thing for regional governments to do in Spain?

I have a vague recollection of the Asturias local govt doing this last year with OVD, resulting in it losing both its LHR (IB) and LTN (EZ) routes pretty much overnight, despite them doing pretty good loads.

Its since got an (I think) x3 weekly LGW flight with (shudder) VY, but nothing like the service it had before...


It is mostly provincial governments (Diputaciones) or city councils. In some cases (like Asturias, La Rioja or Cantabria; one-province regions), it is the regional government. The Government of Asturias subsidises Vueling to LGW. easyJet used to fly STN-OVD btw.

Air Nostrum is pretty much subsidised everywhere in Spain except island routes (and even in some cases like VGO those are subsidised), usually Bilbao and to Madrid on behalf of Iberia (but even in some cases like LCG the city council subsidises Iberia which outsources the route to Air Nostrum). In the case of Vigo they even had two different subsidies: one with the city council (expiring by 2020) and one with the provincial government (already expired). For instance VGO-VLC was subsidised by both the city and the province. Completely nuts, specially when you consider Ryanair is serving both OPO and SCQ which are 1-1h30' away by car.

Andy33 wrote:
It is common for regional governments to provide "pump priming" finance, for a new route for a fixed period, after which routes are expected to stand on their own. In the past Ryanair has made lots of money this way. The alternative is a PSO grant, which again will be for a fixed term, after which it has to be put out to tender again, or dropped altogether

Loadings are no guide to whether the route is viable without external funding unless you know the actual revenue and costs too, and of course viable does mean that it is sufficiently profitable to justify keeping the plane on the route rather than finding somewhere else to send it, not that it just breaks even.


It seems now there is a push towards PSOs. But some secondary cities and their majors need a reality check. There is no need for more mainland PSO routes in Spain that the three currently in operation: Badajoz-Madrid/Barcelona (already mentioned; bad train links) and Sevilla-Almería, which also happens to be the only intra-regional (inside Andalusia) mainland route in Spain. Train connections between Almeria and Sevilla are very bad so this is a way to provide a connection to the regional capital.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:53 pm

another ciudad real.... at least it has some wear and tear... unlike cr
learning never stops.
 
ScottB
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:33 pm

Cunard wrote:
Salamanca is also the starting or finishing point for River Cruises on the River Duero, which has seen tremendous growth over last few years.


The Duero/Douro river cruises don't actually start or end at Salamanca, although the city is a day trip from where most of the cruises turn around at/near Barca de Alva. The river isn't navigable much past where it becomes the Portugal-Spain border as the Saucelle Dam lacks a lock. Those river cruises generally start and end in Porto which has non-stop air service to five continents.

It is a beautiful city indeed, although as others have pointed out, it is surrounded by a whole lot of nothing but farm/ranchland.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
A good reminder that "infrastructure spending" has to make some sense even if you have free, unlimited money available.


Doing some research in Wikipedia it shows the current terminal was opened in 2003 and built at a cost of EUR 18M (which seems a low price, but I reckon it was only the terminal building that needed to be built). Previously it was only a military airport.

What I find crazier is that there was an attempt to launch "Rioja Airlines" to be based at the airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rioja_Airlines That was a thing before the 2008 crisis in Spain. Local/regional governments or entrepreneurs launching their own carriers in their small airports because, why not? Among others were launched:

 
vfw614
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:39 pm

Vitoria is a ghost airport on and off. Now they subsidise again Ryanair so they have a few routes. Otherwise it is a ghost airport.


Vitoria is not a ghost airport. It is quite busy as far as cargo is concerned.

I know, on a.net anything but passenger traffic does not matter.
 
eagles94
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:09 pm

Lleida gets winter seasonal traffic from Gatwick and Manchester in the form of a weekly Thomas Cook A321, guessing they’re ski flights
 
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albertocsc
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Re: Logrono (RJL) in Spain to become ghost airport

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:42 pm

eagles94 wrote:
Lleida gets winter seasonal traffic from Gatwick and Manchester in the form of a weekly Thomas Cook A321, guessing they’re ski flights


Last two years they also had winter seasonal STN service by Jet2 once per week, but this year it won't return.

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