joeljack
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:38 pm

Re: United Growth in Denver

Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:39 pm

I’m familiar with OMA MCI and DSM for past 25 years. United isn’t even close to what it used to be in these markets to DEN and people currently drive because fares on a 50 or 70 seat plane are stupid expensive vs a mainline plane. MCI used to be 7x daily 757 and OMA was 4x daily DC-10, 1x daily 757 at their peaks. Now they vary from 0x daily mainline up to 3x daily mainline. I’m really hoping OMA gets back to all mainline. The A320 size plane is perfect for this route. The 737-900 is too big as they seem to go out with 20-40 empty seats most the time. United should price better for O/D fliers because this is was cheaper than dealing with connecting passengers. Recently, it was $530 round trip OMA-DEN and in same flights connecting in Denver to LAX is was only $350. It should be opposite, can make way more money filling the plane with O/D passengers. Btw, I drove to Denver....$530 is absurd for a 480 mile trip. My company won’t allow that much fare for a 500 mile trip. At $250 full price and $150 basic economy, they would fill those planes and make lots of money! $100 a person per leg at 150 seats is $15,000 + bag fees! Super profitable vs putting connecting passengers on the plane where on $40-$50 applies to that flight leg.
 
xjetflyer2001
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

Re: United Growth in Denver

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:42 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
Both Frontier and Southwest are also projecting adding flights in/out of DEN. Southwest has indicated they may want all of the new gates (16) that are being built on the C concourse. F9 has expressed interest in adding 3-5 additional gates on A concourse.

United has committed to the new gates for the B concourse which is nearly maxed out, if not already. If this proposed expansion is to happen they are gong the have to find gates on the A and C concourses. Those gates will be hard to find.

Frontier 14


It will be interesting, I've heard from some of the higher ups here at UA DEN that they eventually want to take over most of the A Concourse, I would assume, pushing F9 out, which in my mind, the plan is to send them to the C concourse expansion gates, I guess time will tell.


I don’t see how this could happen if WN takes the new all C gates (as they should).


Which is why I said this will be interesting
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

Re: United Growth in Denver

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:03 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:

It will be interesting, I've heard from some of the higher ups here at UA DEN that they eventually want to take over most of the A Concourse, I would assume, pushing F9 out, which in my mind, the plan is to send them to the C concourse expansion gates, I guess time will tell.


I don’t see how this could happen if WN takes the new all C gates (as they should).


Which is why I said this will be interesting


There is very little appetite in Denver to return the days of UA as a fortress hub. Their most effective protection against that has been the multiple concourses that are being built. Both UA and WN have said very loudly and publicly that they intend to grow DEN significantly. I don't see the city doing something at UA's behest that would have a significant impact on WN. I can see the city doing something that would negatively affect F9.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: United Growth in Denver

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:13 pm

airfrnt wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

I don’t see how this could happen if WN takes the new all C gates (as they should).


Which is why I said this will be interesting


There is very little appetite in Denver to return the days of UA as a fortress hub. Their most effective protection against that has been the multiple concourses that are being built. Both UA and WN have said very loudly and publicly that they intend to grow DEN significantly. I don't see the city doing something at UA's behest that would have a significant impact on WN. I can see the city doing something that would negatively affect F9.


I don't see the city doing anything negative towards F9 as they are the hometown airline, the city just paid for am economic study for F9 that showed how much they contributed by having their HQ here. With Delta flipping from the North side of A to the South, there will only be 3 new gate leases available, I think F9 will get those. That would mean in the end UA gets at least 11 new gates, possibly more if they take some of the current common use gates, WN gets up to 16, and F9 only gets 3. F9 still comes out the worst but they will not do anything to hurt them either.
 
N649DL
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United Growth in Denver

Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:54 am

chepos wrote:
grbauc wrote:
N649DL wrote:
It's funny that back when UA & CO merged, DEN was on the cutting board as a hub in favor of IAH. Then DEN gave UAL a huge tax break which led to stabilization of the hub and led to UA moving nearly all of it's Houston training to Denver several years later. IIRC, the first negotiations occurred in 2011-2012, the next for the training center consolidation occurred later in circa 2014-2015. This put the DEN hub back on the map an an expansion target. That and the downturn in the O&G industry in IAH also led them to turn down the hub a little bit as corporate contracts were running dry (recall the ill-fated Houston to Lagos routing, UALs only appearance then into Africa).

UAL should be careful with DEN as while it's a great East / West connecting hub, it's probably also relying heavily on the popularity of DEN being a local O&D hub. They have extreme price competition between F9 and WN as well, which doesn't allow UA to control above 50% of the airport (in retrospect, they're doing much better compared to the past.) As someone who lived there, DEN's popularity is fading and many are looking to leave based on COL and hyped up real estate prices.

Is this independent of UAL having a hub there? I'm not sure, but IMHO, UAL jumped on the DEN bandwagon just at the right time but if anything a bit too late based on the current trends. Assuming a dip in the economy hits, DEN will get hit hard because of it's over-speculated real estate prices, and then Kirby might change his tune a bit.

If UAL went full-on build up at DEN sooner instead of Smisek tampering with it in favor of IAH and then retraction and build up of DEN with Kirby, they'd probably be in an even better spot. UAL has a great hub in DEN no doubt, but UAL in the past was willing to sell it out quickly because IAH at the time functioned in the same fashion.

Bottom Line: Smisek and his "Know a Thing or Two" approach affected the Denver hub, while Kirby sees opportunity. That's great, but UAL had major opportunity during the merger period with CO and it was more or less squandered. Recall Smisek's dumbass remarks along the lines of "The only way DEN-NRT can happen is on a 787, no other aircraft will work." That's complete B.S. as I'm sure back then they could fly the route on an IPTE 777 and still be fine. Only now DEN-FRA is suddenly profitable? What gives with regards to the past?



Wasn’t Denver a fortress hub for United Airlines I remember in the late 90s South West water they would never go back there and any airline that seem to go to Denver will get smashed. Was it the fall of frontier and the weakness of UA that open the gate for others in DEN?


Up until the mid 90’s DEN was a dual hub, for UA and CO. Then Frontier version 2 came along (which has not failed as they are still around). WestPac also hubbed there before they ceased ops.

Southwest had to fly into DEN, it is a large market and by 2006 WN was already a large national carrier and could not avoid such a large market. WN was not afraid of UA, they had been turned off by the high usage fees at the new airport, which is why they left the DEN market right as Stapleton was closing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not at the current DIA. CO had terminal maps for migration to the hub in A but they were in bad financial shape at the time and gave it up in favor of focusing on CLE, IAH, EWR. The President's Club was always huge until the late 2000s but was broken up between the USO and AA lounges and eventually the DL SkyClub in 2016. So CO had plans in 1994 to take up A as a hub and then it was given up to Frontier, IMHO. The Club was the only indicator that they were planning for this but only operated out of a handful of gates near where AA flew out of. They wanted A with the connecting bridge for an advantage over using B or C for various reasons. The A bridge and the train are my favorite things about the airport in general.

UAL in the 1990s had a ton of mainline into DEN on a regular basis EG: 737 / 727 to most places in the southeast and Midwest plus a ton of 747 traffic between hubs. They were likely more dominant back then versus now.

Not much love for F9 on my end. The person in charge of Marketing was in my old building was a total train and called me a vicious name at a local bar in DEN when talking about airline statistics when Frontier was ranked the worst and Delta wasn't. Typical Denver with locals drinking and having issues dealing with the altitude and mouthing off. That was the norm when I lived there.

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