BN747
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Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:26 pm

Footage not seen or found anywhere but here, Miami, Florida based National Airlines (1934–1980) received their first 747-135, registered as N77772, the 68th Boeing off the production line at Everett. Their 2nd aircraft was delivered on October 20th 1970. Their initial route for the jumbo was on the MIami - JFK run, the second ship made MIA - LAX possible. You can see the National 747 at LAX in the upcoming 747 series featuring nearly every 747 operator.

This particular video is definitely a collectors item for the dedicated 747 aficionado!

I was lucky to fly aboard 747 flights of every US carrier that flew the aircraft these two beauties along with any of my favorite carrier, Braniff! :hissyfit: ...but I got over it.

Hopefully, someone here got the chance to experience a Sun King flight and can share.

I myself was lucky enough to catch get a National DC-10 ride from IAH to MSY and I went out of my way to do so just to ride a National wide body.

Enjoy, the show and please share any National experiences you recall!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaB-Rrn7z_g



BN747
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crownvic
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:42 pm

I like the 3rd engine ferry at 56 seconds..
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:01 pm

The first 747s routinely had engine failures on taxi out. Often restarted and continued as normal.

Long story short, for better or worse we have become risk averse 50 years later.

That makes us safer, but also fuels a narrative that Boeing has problems.

Any new plane has teething problems.

New planes with technological leaps usually have several problems.

Boeing will be fine
 
wingsofman72
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:09 pm

Great old movie. Had the pleasure of flying on both NA 747's several times (MIA-JFK-MIA) and once MIA-LAX-MIA.

The LAX trip was really great as the flights were empty (as they were most of the time anyway), but on the way out we went upstairs to the lounge and were the only 2 for the whole flight. The F/A kept coming up and re-filling out Champagne glasses, but finally gave up and just gave us a bottle!!!

Also, had a kind of unique flight in '71 when they had a charity flight for $10 over MIA, about 25min up to Boca and back at something like 3,000'.

On a side note, NA used these for a short time MIA-LHR, and went out to MIA watch the first flight takeoff. I wish I had a movie camera then as it used about 10,000ft of 10,500 9L on takeoff!!
 
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spinotter
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:26 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The first 747s routinely had engine failures on taxi out. Often restarted and continued as normal.

Long story short, for better or worse we have become risk averse 50 years later.

That makes us safer, but also fuels a narrative that Boeing has problems.

Any new plane has teething problems.

New planes with technological leaps usually have several problems.

Boeing will be fine


If you are referring to the current MAX problems, I don't think it's a good comparison. Engine flame out is one thing, an alien presence forcing two crashes is a whole lot more serious.
 
BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:21 pm

wingsofman72 wrote:
Great old movie. Had the pleasure of flying on both NA 747's several times (MIA-JFK-MIA) and once MIA-LAX-MIA.

The LAX trip was really great as the flights were empty (as they were most of the time anyway), but on the way out we went upstairs to the lounge and were the only 2 for the whole flight. The F/A kept coming up and re-filling out Champagne glasses, but finally gave up and just gave us a bottle!!!

Also, had a kind of unique flight in '71 when they had a charity flight for $10 over MIA, about 25min up to Boca and back at something like 3,000'.

On a side note, NA used these for a short time MIA-LHR, and went out to MIA watch the first flight takeoff. I wish I had a movie camera then as it used about 10,000ft of 10,500 9L on takeoff!!


Exactly, the kind of 'National experience' I wanted to hear about!

I did the same with AA 747 trips and had nearly the same experience, but I wish I had gotten a ride on National!


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:54 am

I flew N77772 twice. It was initially named Patricia and then renamed Jacqueline.

1. My family flew it on NA 98, MIA-JFK in August 1972. We sat in the Atlantic Zone (known as Zone C, or C Zone at other airlines), second row, center section (all 4 seats). The Atlantic Zone was the first of 3 coach cabins. The flight was full and the stewardesses very young. My mom complained that the meal was awful but to my 8-year old palate, it was a gourmet feast.

One of the stewardesses took me up to the First Class lounge and cockpit.

2. We flew again on the same aircraft in July 1975 from MIA to LAX on NA 43. My dad had flown on another flight straight from NY, and my mom, brother and I had stopped in MIA on NA’s “Triangle Fare.” “Patricia” had been renamed “Jacqueline” by then. We sat in the Pacific Zone which was E Zone or Zone E at other airlines. We sat in row 51 on the three seat side (the aircraft was 3-4-2 in Coach during its entire career with National).

I was still very young but I remember the interior, by then, seemed very worn and dirty. The double galley between doors 4 L and R had a garbage odor to it before we ever took off. I had gone up to ask for wings and the very nice stewardesses obliged me. We taxied out and returned to the gate with a mechanical. The flight ended up taking off 3 hours late. The stewardesses served drinks and “chip n’ dip” in individual disposable light blue plastic bowls. The chips were Pringles and the dip was onion. I thought it was great. My mom thought it was awful. I remember thinking how appropriate that N77772 was named “Jacqueline” when it incurred that mechanical because there was a Jacqueline in my class at school who was VERY temperamental.

NA used the gates at the bend in the F Concourse at MIA (they were refurbished between 1972 and 1975) and used the International Terminal (on the site of the current Terminal 2) at LAX...which was chaotic.

The two NA 747s were configured in a 58/304 configuration their entire time with NA. There were two zones of First Class, with two rows of F Class seats that swiveled to face each other in the second cabin. NA did not offer “dining table service” like AA (747 and DC-10) and TWA (L-1011) in conjunction with the swivel chairs, and did not purchase the table and extensions to fit between the rows.

The NA upper deck lounge was in a very common Boeing configuration, unlike TWA and AA who custom fitted their lounges.

There were three Coach cabins, all in 3-4-2, except at the very rear where the cabin tapered.

NA’s 747s were delivered just prior to the Fly Me campaign, and initially, had large 747 Sun King logos where the names of flight attendants would be affixed later.

NA worked their 747s hard, and at various times, they covered, for example, MIA-JFK, MIA-LHR, MIA-LAX, MIA-IAH-LAX, and MIA-TPA-IAH-MIA.

NA sold their two 747-135s to Northwest in 1976 after resuming service following a shutdown due to a several month strike by flight attendants. NA was shut down by a number of strikes and was nicknamed “Cobra Airlines,” because the employees would allegedly “strike at anything.” In reality, the existence of the Mutual Aid Pact served as a disincentive for airlines to negotiate and NA management took full advantage of thus dynamic.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:22 pm

National purchased their 2 747 for their Miami to London Heathrow route which was started with 2 leased DC-8's. They proved to be too big since they could only be filed in the summer season and had to be usd to JFK & LAX in the winter. National ordered Dc-10-30 which were a better match in capacity and a better fit into their fleet. National had about 15 Dc-10-10 & -30 for domestic and European routes, National was a pioneer of Miami to Europe flights.

I still find it hard to believe there were no Miami to Europe flights in the pre-jet era. It was National Visionary CEO LB Maytag who saw London and its potential, we know the rest of the story. LB Matag did well for his shareholders selling the airline to Pan AM and walking away with about $40 million in 1980, big $$ then. Today MIA has something like 26 European airlines including Turkish, SWISS, Alitalia, Austrian and TAP.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:45 pm

"National Airlines says/You're gonna have a great time!" I date myself. Pretty livery. Never flew them.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
superjeff
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:04 pm

National was a great airline, with excellent inflight service, including in coach. I went to college in New Orleans and flew them often, usually MSY-LAX (often via IAH) and also to TPA and MIA. One of my first flights with them was actually on an L-188 Electra shortly before they phased them out. I remember flying the into the International Terminal at LAX (I think that was what is now Terminal 3, not Terminal 2 (that was the same terminal used by Pan Am),and I was actually from Honolulu, so it made for an easy connection (but Terminal 3 did not have jet bridges then, so you had to walk out and up the stairs to the planes). Thanks for a bit of history with this thread
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:30 pm

superjeff wrote:
National was a great airline, with excellent inflight service, including in coach. I went to college in New Orleans and flew them often, usually MSY-LAX (often via IAH) and also to TPA and MIA. One of my first flights with them was actually on an L-188 Electra shortly before they phased them out. I remember flying the into the International Terminal at LAX (I think that was what is now Terminal 3, not Terminal 2 (that was the same terminal used by Pan Am),and I was actually from Honolulu, so it made for an easy connection (but Terminal 3 did not have jet bridges then, so you had to walk out and up the stairs to the planes). Thanks for a bit of history with this thread


No. Terminal 3 was TWA.

Pan Am and National were at the International Terminal, along with all international airlines. The International Terminal also hosted TWA’s inbound Polar flights but all TWA departures were out of its own Terminal 3.

TWA had a major operation in the 60s and early 70s out of LAX, and utilized its terminal fully. At one time, TWA leased space to Bonanza, and in later years, to Eastern.

The old International Terminal was replaced by the present Terminal 2.

Terminal 3 did have jetbridges. In fact, TWA helped pioneer over-the-wing jetway boarding (a concept which did not catch on, and was only seen in a limited number of airports such as LAX (TWA T3 only); JFK (the IAB) and AMS. In the 1960s, TWA Terminal 3 did utilize some ground-level boarding but it did have jetways (the term TWA used for jetbridge).

As Terminal 2 was being rebuilt, the International Terminal was demolished and an inflatable structure was put up in its place during the process.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:30 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
I flew N77772 twice. It was initially named Patricia and then renamed Jacqueline.

1. My family flew it on NA 98, MIA-JFK in August 1972. We sat in the Atlantic Zone (known as Zone C, or C Zone at other airlines), second row, center section (all 4 seats). The Atlantic Zone was the first of 3 coach cabins. The flight was full and the stewardesses very young. My mom complained that the meal was awful but to my 8-year old palate, it was a gourmet feast.

One of the stewardesses took me up to the First Class lounge and cockpit.

2. We flew again on the same aircraft in July 1975 from MIA to LAX on NA 43. My dad had flown on another flight straight from NY, and my mom, brother and I had stopped in MIA on NA’s “Triangle Fare.” “Patricia” had been renamed “Jacqueline” by then. We sat in the Pacific Zone which was E Zone or Zone E at other airlines. We sat in row 51 on the three seat side (the aircraft was 3-4-2 in Coach during its entire career with National).

I was still very young but I remember the interior, by then, seemed very worn and dirty. The double galley between doors 4 L and R had a garbage odor to it before we ever took off. I had gone up to ask for wings and the very nice stewardesses obliged me. We taxied out and returned to the gate with a mechanical. The flight ended up taking off 3 hours late. The stewardesses served drinks and “chip n’ dip” in individual disposable light blue plastic bowls. The chips were Pringles and the dip was onion. I thought it was great. My mom thought it was awful. I remember thinking how appropriate that N77772 was named “Jacqueline” when it incurred that mechanical because there was a Jacqueline in my class at school who was VERY temperamental.

NA used the gates at the bend in the F Concourse at MIA (they were refurbished between 1972 and 1975) and used the International Terminal (on the site of the current Terminal 2) at LAX...which was chaotic.

The two NA 747s were configured in a 58/304 configuration their entire time with NA. There were two zones of First Class, with two rows of F Class seats that swiveled to face each other in the second cabin. NA did not offer “dining table service” like AA (747 and DC-10) and TWA (L-1011) in conjunction with the swivel chairs, and did not purchase the table and extensions to fit between the rows.

The NA upper deck lounge was in a very common Boeing configuration, unlike TWA and AA who custom fitted their lounges.

There were three Coach cabins, all in 3-4-2, except at the very rear where the cabin tapered.

NA’s 747s were delivered just prior to the Fly Me campaign, and initially, had large 747 Sun King logos where the names of flight attendants would be affixed later.

NA worked their 747s hard, and at various times, they covered, for example, MIA-JFK, MIA-LHR, MIA-LAX, MIA-IAH-LAX, and MIA-TPA-IAH-MIA.

NA sold their two 747-135s to Northwest in 1976 after resuming service following a shutdown due to a several month strike by flight attendants. NA was shut down by a number of strikes and was nicknamed “Cobra Airlines,” because the employees would allegedly “strike at anything.” In reality, the existence of the Mutual Aid Pact served as a disincentive for airlines to negotiate and NA management took full advantage of thus dynamic.


Wow! Just WOW!

A brilliant Trip Report from the Past!

That National Airlines experience is hard to top or even matched! Color me impressed and envious simultaneously!

So, in the (01:30) the 'interior' scene..it appears the view is just past the FC cabin and start of economy after the L1 door. Is so, is that the Atlantic zone?
I do have a clip of a NA 747 at a MIA gate and another of one at LAX arriving and taxiing to the Pan Am terminal, so I know there was little non-jetway boarding...but I'm sure because of limited space there had to be some ramp/airstair boarding. Did you ever encounter than on any of your trips?

Thanks so much for chiming in with insightful post!

millionsofmiles wrote:
superjeff wrote:
National was a great airline, with excellent inflight service, including in coach. I went to college in New Orleans and flew them often, usually MSY-LAX (often via IAH) and also to TPA and MIA. One of my first flights with them was actually on an L-188 Electra shortly before they phased them out. I remember flying the into the International Terminal at LAX (I think that was what is now Terminal 3, not Terminal 2 (that was the same terminal used by Pan Am),and I was actually from Honolulu, so it made for an easy connection (but Terminal 3 did not have jet bridges then, so you had to walk out and up the stairs to the planes). Thanks for a bit of history with this thread


No. Terminal 3 was TWA.

Pan Am and National were at the International Terminal, along with all international airlines. The International Terminal also hosted TWA’s inbound Polar flights but all TWA departures were out of its own Terminal 3.

TWA had a major operation in the 60s and early 70s out of LAX, and utilized its terminal fully. At one time, TWA leased space to Bonanza, and in later years, to Eastern.

The old International Terminal was replaced by the present Terminal 2.

Terminal 3 did have jetbridges. In fact, TWA helped pioneer over-the-wing jetway boarding (a concept which did not catch on, and was only seen in a limited number of airports such as LAX (TWA T3 only); JFK (the IAB) and AMS. In the 1960s, TWA Terminal 3 did utilize some ground-level boarding but it did have jetways (the term TWA used for jetbridge).

As Terminal 2 was being rebuilt, the International Terminal was demolished and an inflatable structure was put up in its place during the process.


Mr. Millions is right on the money...that is exactly how LAX's northside terminal complex was configured - again, I have clips of a Bonanza DC-9 and National aircraft at Pan Am's T2.
If I recall correctly, the only thing present on the property where today's International TBIT is located..was in the 70s til the early 1980s build of TBIT was nothing but a North/South taxiway (the only one) linking the Airport's South Terminal complex with the Northside. Cross taxiway AA (at the 06 end) did not exist.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
aaway
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:17 pm

BN747 wrote:
Mr. Millions is right on the money...that is exactly how LAX's northside terminal complex was configured - again, I have clips of a Bonanza DC-9 and National aircraft at Pan Am's T2.
If I recall correctly, the only thing present on the property where today's International TBIT is located..was in the 70s til the early 1980s build of TBIT was nothing but a North/South taxiway (the only one) linking the Airport's South Terminal complex with the Northside. Cross taxiway AA (at the 06 end) did not exist.

BN747


With the closure of Rwy 18/36 in the late 60s', a portion of north/south taxiway that paralleled 18/36 became ramp for the old commuter terminals. Those old facilities were nothing more than modular buildings. One housed Golden West. The other housed the other commuter carriers (i.e, Swift Aire, Sun Aire, etc.)

Okay, back to topic at hand....
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:27 pm

aaway wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Mr. Millions is right on the money...that is exactly how LAX's northside terminal complex was configured - again, I have clips of a Bonanza DC-9 and National aircraft at Pan Am's T2.
If I recall correctly, the only thing present on the property where today's International TBIT is located..was in the 70s til the early 1980s build of TBIT was nothing but a North/South taxiway (the only one) linking the Airport's South Terminal complex with the Northside. Cross taxiway AA (at the 06 end) did not exist.

BN747


With the closure of Rwy 18/36 in the late 60s', a portion of north/south taxiway that paralleled 18/36 became ramp for the old commuter terminals. Those old facilities were nothing more than modular buildings. One housed Golden West. The other housed the other commuter carriers (i.e, Swift Aire, Sun Aire, etc.)

Okay, back to topic at hand....


But the old blue American maintenance (now gone) was just south of that on the western side near the remaining (soon to be demolished) superbay hangar, right?

BN747
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BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:45 pm

aaway wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Mr. Millions is right on the money...that is exactly how LAX's northside terminal complex was configured - again, I have clips of a Bonanza DC-9 and National aircraft at Pan Am's T2.
If I recall correctly, the only thing present on the property where today's International TBIT is located..was in the 70s til the early 1980s build of TBIT was nothing but a North/South taxiway (the only one) linking the Airport's South Terminal complex with the Northside. Cross taxiway AA (at the 06 end) did not exist.

BN747


With the closure of Rwy 18/36 in the late 60s', a portion of north/south taxiway that paralleled 18/36 became ramp for the old commuter terminals. Those old facilities were nothing more than modular buildings. One housed Golden West. The other housed the other commuter carriers (i.e, Swift Aire, Sun Aire, etc.)

Okay, back to topic at hand....


Wait...do you mean a ramp/tarmac area on the eastern side of ex-18/36 (my stated location above describes the western side of 16/36) - where TBIT is currently sits? I barely recall standing at a fence at that spot where World Way curves left towards the TBIT entry. I would barely notice any commuter activity because I was focused only on 747s, 707s * DC-8 jets to taxi to Northside or those headed for a the 25s.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

BN747
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aaway
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:11 pm

BN747 wrote:
aaway wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Mr. Millions is right on the money...that is exactly how LAX's northside terminal complex was configured - again, I have clips of a Bonanza DC-9 and National aircraft at Pan Am's T2.
If I recall correctly, the only thing present on the property where today's International TBIT is located..was in the 70s til the early 1980s build of TBIT was nothing but a North/South taxiway (the only one) linking the Airport's South Terminal complex with the Northside. Cross taxiway AA (at the 06 end) did not exist.

BN747


With the closure of Rwy 18/36 in the late 60s', a portion of north/south taxiway that paralleled 18/36 became ramp for the old commuter terminals. Those old facilities were nothing more than modular buildings. One housed Golden West. The other housed the other commuter carriers (i.e, Swift Aire, Sun Aire, etc.)

Okay, back to topic at hand....


Wait...do you mean a ramp/tarmac area on the eastern side of ex-18/36 (my stated location above describes the western side of 16/36) - where TBIT is currently sits? I barely recall standing at a fence at that spot where World Way curves left towards the TBIT entry. I would barely notice any commuter activity because I was focused only on 747s, 707s * DC-8 jets to taxi to Northside or those headed for a the 25s.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

BN747


I'm going to correct myself first :) - Rwy 16/34 (dang it!) But yes....east side of 16/34. Here's a link:

https://imgur.com/gallery/UFnB9Ra

Click the 1972 photo, then expand it. You'll see the commuter terminals sitting above the World Way curve. You can barely make out a Golden West Twin Otter at the northern most of the two buildings.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:55 pm

aaway wrote:
BN747 wrote:
aaway wrote:

With the closure of Rwy 18/36 in the late 60s', a portion of north/south taxiway that paralleled 18/36 became ramp for the old commuter terminals. Those old facilities were nothing more than modular buildings. One housed Golden West. The other housed the other commuter carriers (i.e, Swift Aire, Sun Aire, etc.)

Okay, back to topic at hand....


Wait...do you mean a ramp/tarmac area on the eastern side of ex-18/36 (my stated location above describes the western side of 16/36) - where TBIT is currently sits? I barely recall standing at a fence at that spot where World Way curves left towards the TBIT entry. I would barely notice any commuter activity because I was focused only on 747s, 707s * DC-8 jets to taxi to Northside or those headed for a the 25s.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

BN747


I'm going to correct myself first :) - Rwy 16/34 (dang it!) But yes....east side of 16/34. Here's a link:

https://imgur.com/gallery/UFnB9Ra

Click the 1972 photo, then expand it. You'll see the commuter terminals sitting above the World Way curve. You can barely make out a Golden West Twin Otter at the northern most of the two buildings.


Excellent! Thanks for that, in the 1963 photo, you can see the 'straight thru' taxiway strip and in 1972 there is a wrap around that tiny area that you are talking about....I kinda sense that pad was there back then but was uncertain what exactly it was (nor because no big jets hung around that area) nor did I care.

Nice tidbit of info!

BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:34 pm

The two 747s spent their whole lives together, going to Northwest Orient as a couple and got scrapped side-by-side in North Carolina around the year 2000.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
HAWAIIAN932
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:48 pm

Anybody remember this jingle ? "We're National the sunshine airline, watch us shine, watch us shine." I used to stare out the window of my 7th grade glass and watch all the planes lining up to land at LAX. Always got exited when I'd see the National 747 from Miami, the Eastern 747 from Atlanta and the Delta 747 from Atlanta as well. The Air Canada Super DC-8's from Toronto. I think that one of the reason I'm still obsessed with aviation to this day. I used to stand on a chair with a pair of binoculars is hand looking out of my second floor bedroom window in the afternoon and evenings watching the planes lining up again. SAS DC-8's from Copenhagen via Seattle. The BOAC VC-10's were my favorite because they were so rare. I think BOAC and East African Airways were the only two airlines using them. The RAF used them as well. Air New Zealand DC-8's used to fly directly over my house at a low altitude along with the Aeronaves de Mexico DC-9's. So many great memories.
 
Tokushima
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:57 pm

[quote="HAWAIIAN932"]"We're National the sunshine airline, watch us shine, watch us shine."

Here's a video I made using that jingle (I had bought a record of it at an Airliners show):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7xyQXWC9Dk
 
BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:59 pm

HAWAIIAN932 wrote:
Anybody remember this jingle ? "We're National the sunshine airline, watch us shine, watch us shine." I used to stare out the window of my 7th grade glass and watch all the planes lining up to land at LAX. Always got exited when I'd see the National 747 from Miami, the Eastern 747 from Atlanta and the Delta 747 from Atlanta as well. The Air Canada Super DC-8's from Toronto. I think that one of the reason I'm still obsessed with aviation to this day. I used to stand on a chair with a pair of binoculars is hand looking out of my second floor bedroom window in the afternoon and evenings watching the planes lining up again. SAS DC-8's from Copenhagen via Seattle. The BOAC VC-10's were my favorite because they were so rare. I think BOAC and East African Airways were the only two airlines using them. The RAF used them as well. Air New Zealand DC-8's used to fly directly over my house at a low altitude along with the Aeronaves de Mexico DC-9's. So many great memories.


Many of us grew up in similar fashion.

However, I'm not so sure Eastern deployed their leased (from Pan Am) 747s on ATL-LAX, but they certainly did MIA-LAX & MIA-JFK. But I could be mistaken.
I've searched intensely for Eastern 747 footage in Atlanta = nothing. But all that searching yielded Delta's 1st 747 arriving at ATL for delivery.

Another bit of info re:VC-10 carriers, I recently scored a MEA Middle East Arlines VC-10 at Beirut. I think Ghana Airways had one too.

BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:06 pm

BN747 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
I flew N77772 twice. It was initially named Patricia and then renamed Jacqueline.

1. My family flew it on NA 98, MIA-JFK in August 1972. We sat in the Atlantic Zone (known as Zone C, or C Zone at other airlines), second row, center section (all 4 seats). The Atlantic Zone was the first of 3 coach cabins. The flight was full and the stewardesses very young. My mom complained that the meal was awful but to my 8-year old palate, it was a gourmet feast.

One of the stewardesses took me up to the First Class lounge and cockpit.

2. We flew again on the same aircraft in July 1975 from MIA to LAX on NA 43. My dad had flown on another flight straight from NY, and my mom, brother and I had stopped in MIA on NA’s “Triangle Fare.” “Patricia” had been renamed “Jacqueline” by then. We sat in the Pacific Zone which was E Zone or Zone E at other airlines. We sat in row 51 on the three seat side (the aircraft was 3-4-2 in Coach during its entire career with National).

I was still very young but I remember the interior, by then, seemed very worn and dirty. The double galley between doors 4 L and R had a garbage odor to it before we ever took off. I had gone up to ask for wings and the very nice stewardesses obliged me. We taxied out and returned to the gate with a mechanical. The flight ended up taking off 3 hours late. The stewardesses served drinks and “chip n’ dip” in individual disposable light blue plastic bowls. The chips were Pringles and the dip was onion. I thought it was great. My mom thought it was awful. I remember thinking how appropriate that N77772 was named “Jacqueline” when it incurred that mechanical because there was a Jacqueline in my class at school who was VERY temperamental.

NA used the gates at the bend in the F Concourse at MIA (they were refurbished between 1972 and 1975) and used the International Terminal (on the site of the current Terminal 2) at LAX...which was chaotic.

The two NA 747s were configured in a 58/304 configuration their entire time with NA. There were two zones of First Class, with two rows of F Class seats that swiveled to face each other in the second cabin. NA did not offer “dining table service” like AA (747 and DC-10) and TWA (L-1011) in conjunction with the swivel chairs, and did not purchase the table and extensions to fit between the rows.

The NA upper deck lounge was in a very common Boeing configuration, unlike TWA and AA who custom fitted their lounges.

There were three Coach cabins, all in 3-4-2, except at the very rear where the cabin tapered.

NA’s 747s were delivered just prior to the Fly Me campaign, and initially, had large 747 Sun King logos where the names of flight attendants would be affixed later.

NA worked their 747s hard, and at various times, they covered, for example, MIA-JFK, MIA-LHR, MIA-LAX, MIA-IAH-LAX, and MIA-TPA-IAH-MIA.

NA sold their two 747-135s to Northwest in 1976 after resuming service following a shutdown due to a several month strike by flight attendants. NA was shut down by a number of strikes and was nicknamed “Cobra Airlines,” because the employees would allegedly “strike at anything.” In reality, the existence of the Mutual Aid Pact served as a disincentive for airlines to negotiate and NA management took full advantage of thus dynamic.


Wow! Just WOW!

A brilliant Trip Report from the Past!

That National Airlines experience is hard to top or even matched! Color me impressed and envious simultaneously!

So, in the (01:30) the 'interior' scene..it appears the view is just past the FC cabin and start of economy after the L1 door. Is so, is that the Atlantic zone?
I do have a clip of a NA 747 at a MIA gate and another of one at LAX arriving and taxiing to the Pan Am terminal, so I know there was little non-jetway boarding...but I'm sure because of limited space there had to be some ramp/airstair boarding. Did you ever encounter than on any of your trips?

Thanks so much for chiming in with insightful post!

millionsofmiles wrote:
superjeff wrote:
National was a great airline, with excellent inflight service, including in coach. I went to college in New Orleans and flew them often, usually MSY-LAX (often via IAH) and also to TPA and MIA. One of my first flights with them was actually on an L-188 Electra shortly before they phased them out. I remember flying the into the International Terminal at LAX (I think that was what is now Terminal 3, not Terminal 2 (that was the same terminal used by Pan Am),and I was actually from Honolulu, so it made for an easy connection (but Terminal 3 did not have jet bridges then, so you had to walk out and up the stairs to the planes). Thanks for a bit of history with this thread


No. Terminal 3 was TWA.

Pan Am and National were at the International Terminal, along with all international airlines. The International Terminal also hosted TWA’s inbound Polar flights but all TWA departures were out of its own Terminal 3.

TWA had a major operation in the 60s and early 70s out of LAX, and utilized its terminal fully. At one time, TWA leased space to Bonanza, and in later years, to Eastern.

The old International Terminal was replaced by the present Terminal 2.

Terminal 3 did have jetbridges. In fact, TWA helped pioneer over-the-wing jetway boarding (a concept which did not catch on, and was only seen in a limited number of airports such as LAX (TWA T3 only); JFK (the IAB) and AMS. In the 1960s, TWA Terminal 3 did utilize some ground-level boarding but it did have jetways (the term TWA used for jetbridge).

As Terminal 2 was being rebuilt, the International Terminal was demolished and an inflatable structure was put up in its place during the process.


Mr. Millions is right on the money...that is exactly how LAX's northside terminal complex was configured - again, I have clips of a Bonanza DC-9 and National aircraft at Pan Am's T2.
If I recall correctly, the only thing present on the property where today's International TBIT is located..was in the 70s til the early 1980s build of TBIT was nothing but a North/South taxiway (the only one) linking the Airport's South Terminal complex with the Northside. Cross taxiway AA (at the 06 end) did not exist.

BN747



Every time I flew MSY-LAX on National enroute to HNL with a connection on Pan Am, there were no jetways. There may have been several in the terminal, but National did not use them when I was in college (1967-1970). I think we're talking about the same terminal, but I may have mis-numbered it.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:01 pm

This was back when airlines buy planes because other airlines bought them. Imagine how our skies would be like today if they still do this everywhere? There would be A380s all over!
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:01 pm

BN747 wrote:
HAWAIIAN932 wrote:
Anybody remember this jingle ? "We're National the sunshine airline, watch us shine, watch us shine." I used to stare out the window of my 7th grade glass and watch all the planes lining up to land at LAX. Always got exited when I'd see the National 747 from Miami, the Eastern 747 from Atlanta and the Delta 747 from Atlanta as well. The Air Canada Super DC-8's from Toronto. I think that one of the reason I'm still obsessed with aviation to this day. I used to stand on a chair with a pair of binoculars is hand looking out of my second floor bedroom window in the afternoon and evenings watching the planes lining up again. SAS DC-8's from Copenhagen via Seattle. The BOAC VC-10's were my favorite because they were so rare. I think BOAC and East African Airways were the only two airlines using them. The RAF used them as well. Air New Zealand DC-8's used to fly directly over my house at a low altitude along with the Aeronaves de Mexico DC-9's. So many great memories.


Many of us grew up in similar fashion.

However, I'm not so sure Eastern deployed their leased (from Pan Am) 747s on ATL-LAX, but they certainly did MIA-LAX & MIA-JFK. But I could be mistaken.
I've searched intensely for Eastern 747 footage in Atlanta = nothing. But all that searching yielded Delta's 1st 747 arriving at ATL for delivery.

Another bit of info re:VC-10 carriers, I recently scored a MEA Middle East Arlines VC-10 at Beirut. I think Ghana Airways had one too.

BN747


Re VC-10 carriers, there were several civilian operators of the Vickers VC-10

Air Ceylon
Air Malawi
BOAC (original operator)
British Airways
British Caledonian Airways
British United Airways (original operator)
East African Airways (original operator)
Ghana Airways (original operator)
Gulf Air
Laker
Middle East Airline's
Nigeria Airways

FYI Ghana Airways had two standard VC-10's, the first one was delivered to the airline in February 1964 and entered service from ACC to LHR in February 1965, the second example was delivered in June 1965.

The second Ghana Airways VC-10 was later leased to Middle East Airlines but the aircraft was destroyed by an Israeli raid at Beirut Airport in December 1968. MEA then leased the proto type aircraft which was purchased from Vickers by Laker Airways in 1965.

Airlines such as Air Ceylon and Nigeria Airways had single leased Standard VC-10's from BOAC. The Nigeria Airways example being a write off after a landing accident at Lagos in November 1969.

British Caledonian Airways formerly British United Airways had four Standard VC-10's.

The single Air Malawi VC-10 was purchased from BCAL in 1972.

East African Airways had four Super VC-10's bought from new.

Gulf Air had four standard VC-10's, two purchased from BCAL and two coming from British Airways.

Sorry to go off topic :-)

Regarding the National Airlines Boeing 747. I personally never got the opportunity to see one but I have fond memories of seeing their DC-10-30's at LHR. I always appreciated the smart modern livery of National Airlines and it suited their aircraft perfectly and the B747 in their colours sure looked beautiful :-)
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Cunard
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:24 am

Regarding my previous post.

I just noticed that I made a mistake regarding the delivery date for Ghana Airways first VC-10, it should have been December 1964 rather than what I typed as in February 1964.
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BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:25 pm

Cunard wrote:
BN747 wrote:
HAWAIIAN932 wrote:
Anybody remember this jingle ? "We're National the sunshine airline, watch us shine, watch us shine." I used to stare out the window of my 7th grade glass and watch all the planes lining up to land at LAX. Always got exited when I'd see the National 747 from Miami, the Eastern 747 from Atlanta and the Delta 747 from Atlanta as well. The Air Canada Super DC-8's from Toronto. I think that one of the reason I'm still obsessed with aviation to this day. I used to stand on a chair with a pair of binoculars is hand looking out of my second floor bedroom window in the afternoon and evenings watching the planes lining up again. SAS DC-8's from Copenhagen via Seattle. The BOAC VC-10's were my favorite because they were so rare. I think BOAC and East African Airways were the only two airlines using them. The RAF used them as well. Air New Zealand DC-8's used to fly directly over my house at a low altitude along with the Aeronaves de Mexico DC-9's. So many great memories.


Many of us grew up in similar fashion.

However, I'm not so sure Eastern deployed their leased (from Pan Am) 747s on ATL-LAX, but they certainly did MIA-LAX & MIA-JFK. But I could be mistaken.
I've searched intensely for Eastern 747 footage in Atlanta = nothing. But all that searching yielded Delta's 1st 747 arriving at ATL for delivery.

Another bit of info re:VC-10 carriers, I recently scored a MEA Middle East Arlines VC-10 at Beirut. I think Ghana Airways had one too.

BN747


Re VC-10 carriers, there were several civilian operators of the Vickers VC-10

Air Ceylon
Air Malawi
BOAC (original operator)
British Airways
British Caledonian Airways
British United Airways (original operator)
East African Airways (original operator)
Ghana Airways (original operator)
Gulf Air
Laker
Middle East Airline's
Nigeria Airways

FYI Ghana Airways had two standard VC-10's, the first one was delivered to the airline in February 1964 and entered service from ACC to LHR in February 1965, the second example was delivered in June 1965.

The second Ghana Airways VC-10 was later leased to Middle East Airlines but the aircraft was destroyed by an Israeli raid at Beirut Airport in December 1968. MEA then leased the proto type aircraft which was purchased from Vickers by Laker Airways in 1965.

Airlines such as Air Ceylon and Nigeria Airways had single leased Standard VC-10's from BOAC. The Nigeria Airways example being a write off after a landing accident at Lagos in November 1969.

British Caledonian Airways formerly British United Airways had four Standard VC-10's.

The single Air Malawi VC-10 was purchased from BCAL in 1972.

East African Airways had four Super VC-10's bought from new.

Gulf Air had four standard VC-10's, two purchased from BCAL and two coming from British Airways.

Sorry to go off topic :-)

Regarding the National Airlines Boeing 747. I personally never got the opportunity to see one but I have fond memories of seeing their DC-10-30's at LHR. I always appreciated the smart modern livery of National Airlines and it suited their aircraft perfectly and the B747 in their colours sure looked beautiful :-)


That is very true! National was ahead of it's time when they went Sun King! It was quite futuristic then.

Re: the VC-10s, I really like do a dedicated VC-10 series as I'm currently pulling together for the 747s and DC-10s...but I have just half that list of operators you shared and I bet the Nigeria Airways VC-10 is impossible to obtain!

BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:41 pm

I would like to contribute this seat-map to this conversation.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:50 pm

Did you fly the Whale on EAL?
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:55 pm

Never flew the 747s just the 727s. Really takes me back when I see the Sun King on the tail.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:30 pm

This is a wonderful video. Thank you for sharing it as will add your memories.
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:16 pm

william wrote:
Never flew the 747s just the 727s. Really takes me back when I see the Sun King on the tail.

I was wonder when the Sun King avatar was going to show up in this thread...

mbmbos wrote:
This is a wonderful video. Thank you for sharing it as will add your memories.



Thank you, retro-spotting is proving a challenging task.

But it's worth it. Even if I did this just for my own satisfaction and only my personal viewing..I'd be perfectly okay with that. I am however, aware that I was not the only kid who was 'wowed' by screaming 707s and DC-8s...so much to the point that became the unique hobby that it has developed into. So I do take it on myself to deep dive until the ends of the internet to make sure no stone is unturned - and share it!

BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:55 am

BN747 wrote:
william wrote:
Never flew the 747s just the 727s. Really takes me back when I see the Sun King on the tail.

I was wonder when the Sun King avatar was going to show up in this thread...

mbmbos wrote:
This is a wonderful video. Thank you for sharing it as will add your memories.



Thank you, retro-spotting is proving a challenging task.

But it's worth it. Even if I did this just for my own satisfaction and only my personal viewing..I'd be perfectly okay with that. I am however, aware that I was not the only kid who was 'wowed' by screaming 707s and DC-8s...so much to the point that became the unique hobby that it has developed into. So I do take it on myself to deep dive until the ends of the internet to make sure no stone is unturned - and share it!

BN747



Between my finger typing and auto-correct, I managed to botch that last sentence. I meant to say "as well as." When I was 13 (1973) my family briefly lived in North Kansas City, directly under a major flight path into the old KCI. TWA and Braniff were still flying pure jets. When one of those beautiful 707-300s, 707-100s and 720s roared over, everything came to a stop. You couldn't hear the TV or your mother talking. I also was there when the transition between KCI and MCI took place. Like you, I cherish those memories.
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:46 am

cedarjet wrote:
The two 747s spent their whole lives together, going to Northwest Orient as a couple and got scrapped side-by-side in North Carolina around the year 2000.



This is a magic thread but this one post is
particularly, well, moving


You managed to capture the romance of flight with the majesty of the 747 using ‘twins’


Absolutely brilliant
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Max Q wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
The two 747s spent their whole lives together, going to Northwest Orient as a couple and got scrapped side-by-side in North Carolina around the year 2000.



This is a magic thread but this one post is
particularly, well, moving


You managed to capture the romance of flight with the majesty of the 747 using ‘twins’


Absolutely brilliant


Awesome compliment, Max!

Thanks!

BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:47 am

If National had not been brought out by Pan Am, could they have survived into today and what do you think they would look like in 2019?
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:06 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
If National had not been brought out by Pan Am, could they have survived into today and what do you think they would look like in 2019?


The 727s would have been replaced with 737-800s or A320s.
The DC-8s and DC-10s would have been replaced with 767s, probably both 200 and 300ERs, or A330s.
By now they would be looking at the A330NEO or the 787-8/9 to replace the 767s.
They probably would have bought the 777-200ER for their hi capacity long haul routes and opened more routes to Europe and South America, by now they would be flying to LHR, CDG, FRA, GIG, GRU and EZE using the 777, or the A359, plus other markets. If that had happened, National would have been the dominant carrier in MIA and they would have been the ones taking over Eastern's assets instead of letting American doing it.
Sure American would still exist but they probably wouldn't have a hub in MIA. National, they would be the ones dominating the Gulf of Mexico, Central and South America.
Of course by now they would have changed their livery.
Which alliance would they be in? Who knows.

If National had stayed Boeing the fleet would be as follows by now: 737-800, 767-200/300ER, 787-8/9 on order and 777-200ER.
If National had chosen Airbus instead the fleet would be as follows by now: A320, A330, A330NEO and A359 on order.
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:46 am

BN747 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
The two 747s spent their whole lives together, going to Northwest Orient as a couple and got scrapped side-by-side in North Carolina around the year 2000.



This is a magic thread but this one post is
particularly, well, moving


You managed to capture the romance of flight with the majesty of the 747 using ‘twins’


Absolutely brilliant


Awesome compliment, Max!

Thanks!

BN747



Thanks BN7, it was Cedarjets story of these
two majestic twins that really captured my
imagination


I think that particular era was and still is the most exciting time in civil aviation and aerospace for that matter

Within the space of a few years the 747, DC10 and L1011 went into service

Not to mention Concorde, and then there
was Apollo 11 landing on the moon


Nothing like those advances has been seen
since then, modern aircraft are impressive in many ways but they don’t come close to those epically visionary machines
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:46 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
If National had not been brought out by Pan Am, could they have survived into today and what do you think they would look like in 2019?


Realistically, National was too small to make it as an independent airline after deregulation. Northwest and National came close to merging several times in the 1970s (the 1971 annual reports of both Northwest and National show what the route systems of the airlines would look like if they merged), and even though Delta had just merged with Northeast, they discussed merging with National in the mid 1970s, too. TWA would have been another logical merger partner for National, although TWA probably couldn't have afforded to buy NA because of TWA's financial problems.

Had National not merged, they would have been affected by the same competitive forces that caused Pan Am to abandon many of National's domestic routes within a few years after the merger. New entrants like Air Florida and PeoplExpress would have had a devastating effect on NA's routes from the northeast to Florida, and a merged Continental / Texas International would have hurt NA badly in Houston. Articles written around the time of deregulation said National had the most competitive route system of any US airline; they did not have any large routes where they were the dominant airline.

Sadly, National would also have suffered a horrific fatal accident. The Pan Am 727 that crashed near MSY in 1982 was an ex-National aircraft, and the pilots were ex-NA, so had the merger not taken place, the image of the tail of the crashed 727 would have showed NA's sun king rather than PA's globe.

Had National not merged with Pan Am, their relatively limited, highly competitive route system would have forced them to either merge or file for bankruptcy within a few years after deregulation. To the credit of National's leadership, they sold the airline at the right time, for the highest possible price, and National's shareholders made much more money from National's stock than they would have made if NA had stayed independent.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:36 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Between my finger typing and auto-correct, I managed to botch that last sentence. I meant to say "as well as." When I was 13 (1973) my family briefly lived in North Kansas City, directly under a major flight path into the old KCI. TWA and Braniff were still flying pure jets. When one of those beautiful 707-300s, 707-100s and 720s roared over, everything came to a stop. You couldn't hear the TV or your mother talking. I also was there when the transition between KCI and MCI took place. Like you, I cherish those memories.


So off National Airlines for a sec. I've always wondered about what was before MCI? Was KCI in/near the city? Or on same property as MCI? Are there pics here showing what that looked like?

Theses two 'hypotheticals of what if National had survived are very interesting!

American 767 wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
If National had not been brought out by Pan Am, could they have survived into today and what do you think they would look like in 2019?


The 727s would have been replaced with 737-800s or A320s.
The DC-8s and DC-10s would have been replaced with 767s, probably both 200 and 300ERs, or A330s.
By now they would be looking at the A330NEO or the 787-8/9 to replace the 767s.
They probably would have bought the 777-200ER for their hi capacity long haul routes and opened more routes to Europe and South America, by now they would be flying to LHR, CDG, FRA, GIG, GRU and EZE using the 777, or the A359, plus other markets. If that had happened, National would have been the dominant carrier in MIA and they would have been the ones taking over Eastern's assets instead of letting American doing it.
Sure American would still exist but they probably wouldn't have a hub in MIA. National, they would be the ones dominating the Gulf of Mexico, Central and South America.
Of course by now they would have changed their livery.
Which alliance would they be in? Who knows.

If National had stayed Boeing the fleet would be as follows by now: 737-800, 767-200/300ER, 787-8/9 on order and 777-200ER.
If National had chosen Airbus instead the fleet would be as follows by now: A320, A330, A330NEO and A359 on order.


I like this scenario, it seems more likely of an out come.

But I think Eastern (pre-Texas Intl' - had their financials been stronger) would have been the perfect merging partner.
They had similar route structures and Eastern would have effectively absorbed a toe-to-toe rival and sealed MIA like AA owns DFW.
Afterwards, they have to build a much stronger domestic network...but they demonstrated on their own..they could not accomplish that.

The second 'what if..'

WA707atMSP wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
If National had not been brought out by Pan Am, could they have survived into today and what do you think they would look like in 2019?


Realistically, National was too small to make it as an independent airline after deregulation. Northwest and National came close to merging several times in the 1970s (the 1971 annual reports of both Northwest and National show what the route systems of the airlines would look like if they merged), and even though Delta had just merged with Northeast, they discussed merging with National in the mid 1970s, too. TWA would have been another logical merger partner for National, although TWA probably couldn't have afforded to buy NA because of TWA's financial problems.

Had National not merged, they would have been affected by the same competitive forces that caused Pan Am to abandon many of National's domestic routes within a few years after the merger. New entrants like Air Florida and PeoplExpress would have had a devastating effect on NA's routes from the northeast to Florida, and a merged Continental / Texas International would have hurt NA badly in Houston. Articles written around the time of deregulation said National had the most competitive route system of any US airline; they did not have any large routes where they were the dominant airline.

Sadly, National would also have suffered a horrific fatal accident. The Pan Am 727 that crashed near MSY in 1982 was an ex-National aircraft, and the pilots were ex-NA, so had the merger not taken place, the image of the tail of the crashed 727 would have showed NA's sun king rather than PA's globe.

Had National not merged with Pan Am, their relatively limited, highly competitive route system would have forced them to either merge or file for bankruptcy within a few years after deregulation. To the credit of National's leadership, they sold the airline at the right time, for the highest possible price, and National's shareholders made much more money from National's stock than they would have made if NA had stayed independent.


And pointing out kinda cancels my Eastern/National merger because Air Florida would and sort of was a National replacement, smothering the plan to own 'Florida/MIA'.

BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:39 pm

Also a bit off topic, but since we're reminiscing (and I'm too young to actually remember National...)

In 1986, when I was five years old we took a family vacation to New Orleans, and my parents gave me the fold-up city map that came with our Avis rental car (remember those? they were always terrible Gousha maps.) There was a woefully outdated map of the MSY terminal on the back that still showed National, Southern and Texas International's gates on the A and B concourses. I remember being confused - even at age five, I knew every airline flying, and I'd never heard of those!

Years later, when I learned more about pre-Deregulation carriers, I was always a little sad that National never served my home airports of DAL and DFW. I always thought their planes would have looked nice there.
 
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:05 pm

BN747 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Between my finger typing and auto-correct, I managed to botch that last sentence. I meant to say "as well as." When I was 13 (1973) my family briefly lived in North Kansas City, directly under a major flight path into the old KCI. TWA and Braniff were still flying pure jets. When one of those beautiful 707-300s, 707-100s and 720s roared over, everything came to a stop. You couldn't hear the TV or your mother talking. I also was there when the transition between KCI and MCI took place. Like you, I cherish those memories.


So off National Airlines for a sec. I've always wondered about what was before MCI? Was KCI in/near the city? Or on same property as MCI? Are there pics here showing what that looked like

BN747


I only lived there a short while as a teen, but I remember MCI being located on the Missouri river, which divides the Kansas and Missouri sides of Kansas City.

https://www.google.com/search?q=old+kci ... hpOUM-RfGM

https://www.google.com/search?q=old+kci ... HXioHI525M
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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BN747
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Re: Airliners Past: National Airlines receives their 1st Boeing 747

Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:15 pm

mbmbos wrote:
BN747 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Between my finger typing and auto-correct, I managed to botch that last sentence. I meant to say "as well as." When I was 13 (1973) my family briefly lived in North Kansas City, directly under a major flight path into the old KCI. TWA and Braniff were still flying pure jets. When one of those beautiful 707-300s, 707-100s and 720s roared over, everything came to a stop. You couldn't hear the TV or your mother talking. I also was there when the transition between KCI and MCI took place. Like you, I cherish those memories.


So off National Airlines for a sec. I've always wondered about what was before MCI? Was KCI in/near the city? Or on same property as MCI? Are there pics here showing what that looked like

BN747


I only lived there a short while as a teen, but I remember MCI being located on the Missouri river, which divides the Kansas and Missouri sides of Kansas City.

https://www.google.com/search?q=old+kci ... hpOUM-RfGM

https://www.google.com/search?q=old+kci ... HXioHI525M


Yeah, those links answer my question, in some of the b&w photos provide direct overhead views and it apparently was called Charles B. Wheeler Downtown Airport, Kansas City, Missouri but it was the original Kansas City Municipal Airport.

I just wish some footage of 707s 720s screaming in/out of that facility with the skyline as a backdrop...that's some rare historical stuff there. I'm even more stunned that no photos exist on A.net of from that period.

Thanks for the links!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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