kimimm19
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LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:52 pm

Looking at Lufthansa's fleet, they've got the a32xneo to replace their a320 and a321 needs, but there are still 27 a319s in the fleet.

There is no mention on what LH plans on doing with these. So in does anyone know what they plan on doing with these?


With LX being as happy as they are with the a220s, and LH having all the information they need available to them, why haven't they pulled the trigger?

Surely that can't be thinking of replacing all of these with larger variants?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:13 pm

Why not? LH doesn't share planes and crew with Swiss. The 319s you reference are at LH, not Swiss. Commonality with the rest of the LH fleet may - may - be more important than satisfaction with the A220s placed at Swiss.
 
Someone83
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:10 pm

An A319 can be replaced by A320neo, even if it means increased capacity
 
Amiga500
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:37 pm

Someone83 wrote:
An A319 can be replaced by A320neo, even if it means increased capacity


Yep - and the logic of doing so would likely depend on what your load factors are like on intended routes.

Otherwise trip cost will be high compared to CS300.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:52 pm

Don't forget that it was LH that placed the order for 30 A220's(then CSeries), plus an additional 30 options. LH placed the first 29 of this firm order (plus one remaining to be delivered) with LX. Therefore, LH could exercise its 30 options, and place these jets with LH, LX or any of its other subsidiaries. In addition, did not LH lease various A220's from SWISS over the summer months to meet demand? Therefore LH already has some experience with the A220 jets. Maybe they leased them to test to see if they would be viable in their fleet.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:56 pm

Sorry, LH actually wet leased the A220's from AirBaltic. But still, was this to get experience from the A220 to see if they would work in their fleet?
Jetsouth wrote:
Don't forget that it was LH that placed the order for 30 A220's(then CSeries), plus an additional 30 options. LH placed the first 29 of this firm order (plus one remaining to be delivered) with LX. Therefore, LH could exercise its 30 options, and place these jets with LH, LX or any of its other subsidiaries. In addition, did not LH lease various A220's from SWISS over the summer months to meet demand? Therefore LH already has some experience with the A220 jets. Maybe they leased them to test to see if they would be viable in their fleet.
 
HBChris
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:05 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
In addition, did not LH lease various A220's from SWISS over the summer months to meet demand?

They wet-leased two Air Baltic A220-300 for the summer.

But I doubt that LH will exercise any options until they decide on their future 100+ narrow body order that they announced for next year. May be the A220 will be part of that order.
 
ewt340
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:09 pm

It depends on Lufthansa Regional Network. They are currently operating many smaller regional jets which mainly uses smaller Embraer and Bombardier jets.

If they wanted to update their fleet in the future. They might choose to opt for A220-100 to replace these jets. It would be a small capacity increase, but if they want to, they could gauge up both A220-100 and A220-300 for both the regional network and the mainline to replace the older A319, Embraer and Bombardier jets.

Otherwise, I see them using A320neo instead to replace those.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:14 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Sorry, LH actually wet leased the A220's from AirBaltic. But still, was this to get experience from the A220 to see if they would work in their fleet?
Jetsouth wrote:
Don't forget that it was LH that placed the order for 30 A220's(then CSeries), plus an additional 30 options. LH placed the first 29 of this firm order (plus one remaining to be delivered) with LX. Therefore, LH could exercise its 30 options, and place these jets with LH, LX or any of its other subsidiaries. In addition, did not LH lease various A220's from SWISS over the summer months to meet demand? Therefore LH already has some experience with the A220 jets. Maybe they leased them to test to see if they would be viable in their fleet.

LH has all the necessary information they need from LX, they really don’t need to wetlease any to “experience” the aircraft and see how it will fit in fleet. In fact they probably know more about the aircraft performance from LX than the wet lease (because AirBaltic was still operating the aircraft and was likely under no obligation to share specific performance data to LH).
 
jghealey
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Re: LH and the a220

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:34 pm

I don't think the A319s will be going for a few years yet despite their age, it seems LH is keeping many of the A320s until they are 30yrs old. The natural replacement for the A319 to me seems to be the A320neo, allowing LH to increase capacity and reduce cost per seat at the same time. However at LH regional I think the A220 would be a perfectly suitable replacement for the CRJs and E190s they have currently. LH don't seem to be concerned with capacity increases in general for replacement of smaller aircraft types - Swiss replaced its 25 97-seat Avro RJs with 20 145-seat A220-300s and 10 125-seat A220-100s, while Austrian is replacing its 76 seat Q400s with 180 seat A320s (!). Therefore, a jump from 84 seats on the CRJ to 125 on the A220-100 isn't actually that much when you take Swiss and Austrian into account. The A220 as others have mentioned is also an aircraft type which LH has experience with unlike the E2.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:40 am

ewt340 wrote:
It depends on Lufthansa Regional Network. They are currently operating many smaller regional jets which mainly uses smaller Embraer and Bombardier jets.

If they wanted to update their fleet in the future. They might choose to opt for A220-100 to replace these jets. It would be a small capacity increase, but if they want to, they could gauge up both A220-100 and A220-300 for both the regional network and the mainline to replace the older A319, Embraer and Bombardier jets.

Otherwise, I see them using A320neo instead to replace those.


jghealey wrote:
I don't think the A319s will be going for a few years yet despite their age, it seems LH is keeping many of the A320s until they are 30yrs old. The natural replacement for the A319 to me seems to be the A320neo, allowing LH to increase capacity and reduce cost per seat at the same time. However at LH regional I think the A220 would be a perfectly suitable replacement for the CRJs and E190s they have currently. LH don't seem to be concerned with capacity increases in general for replacement of smaller aircraft types - Swiss replaced its 25 97-seat Avro RJs with 20 145-seat A220-300s and 10 125-seat A220-100s, while Austrian is replacing its 76 seat Q400s with 180 seat A320s (!). Therefore, a jump from 84 seats on the CRJ to 125 on the A220-100 isn't actually that much when you take Swiss and Austrian into account. The A220 as others have mentioned is also an aircraft type which LH has experience with unlike the E2.


Fully agreed, as someone who travels from one of their regional airports this is where I would see this potentially happening, and as jghealey rightly points out, LH are not scared and actively look to boost capacity to allow for greater feed across its hubs.
 
marcogr12
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:57 am

[quote="jghealey"]I don't think the A319s will be going for a few years yet despite their age, it seems LH is keeping many of the A320s until they are 30yrs old. The natural replacement for the A319 to me seems to be the A320neo, allowing LH to increase capacity and reduce cost per seat at the same time. However at LH regional I think the A220 would be a perfectly suitable replacement for the CRJs and E190s they have currently. LH don't seem to be concerned with capacity increases in general for replacement of smaller aircraft types - Swiss replaced its 25 97-seat Avro RJs with 20 145-seat A220-300s and 10 125-seat A220-100s, while Austrian is replacing its 76 seat Q400s with 180 seat A320s (!). Therefore, a jump from 84 seats on the CRJ to 125 on the A220-100 isn't actually that much when you take Swiss and Austrian into account. The A220 as others have mentioned is also an aircraft type which LH has experience with unlike the E2.[/quote
Dont forget Austrian has the E-195 to bridge the gap between the Q400s and the A319/A320s...The LH A319 i have read are going to the EN fleet
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:18 pm

At some point, LH will order the A220 for itself. They might wait for further improvements and higher output of the frames. The news about an undisclosed A220LR/XLR shows that improvements might be / are on the way.
 
jownes
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:35 pm

I am not sure about the union contract. I thought that LH regional pilots are only allowed to fly smaller planes and the 220, especially the 300, is to big so LH would have to negotiate with the union first or fly it with mainline instead of the cheaper reagional pilots
 
Someone83
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:53 pm

jownes wrote:
I am not sure about the union contract. I thought that LH regional pilots are only allowed to fly smaller planes and the 220, especially the 300, is to big so LH would have to negotiate with the union first or fly it with mainline instead of the cheaper reagional pilots


LH is currently sending a few A319s down to Cityline, which are the same size as the A220-300
 
jghealey
Posts: 136
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:17 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
jghealey wrote:
I don't think the A319s will be going for a few years yet despite their age, it seems LH is keeping many of the A320s until they are 30yrs old. The natural replacement for the A319 to me seems to be the A320neo, allowing LH to increase capacity and reduce cost per seat at the same time. However at LH regional I think the A220 would be a perfectly suitable replacement for the CRJs and E190s they have currently. LH don't seem to be concerned with capacity increases in general for replacement of smaller aircraft types - Swiss replaced its 25 97-seat Avro RJs with 20 145-seat A220-300s and 10 125-seat A220-100s, while Austrian is replacing its 76 seat Q400s with 180 seat A320s (!). Therefore, a jump from 84 seats on the CRJ to 125 on the A220-100 isn't actually that much when you take Swiss and Austrian into account. The A220 as others have mentioned is also an aircraft type which LH has experience with unlike the E2.

Dont forget Austrian has the E-195 to bridge the gap between the Q400s and the A319/A320s...The LH A319 i have read are going to the EN fleet
[/quote]
Fair enough, but 76 to 120 seats is still a sizeable jump, only slightly more than LX replacing the Avros with the A220-300. I think the Embraer 190/195s are going from LH CityLine to Air Dolomiti while the ex-LH mainline A319s are going to CityLine.
 
blueflyer
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:33 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
There is no mention on what LH plans on doing with these. So in does anyone know what they plan on doing with these?

I don't remember the context (perhaps Capital Markets Day) but Lufty did say they had no plans yet. The earlier A320s and A321s in the fleet are older than the A319s, and coming up on heavy (read expensive) maintenance. They have more time before they get to a point where they need to decide between replacing the A319s or investing in significant overhaul.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:48 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
At some point, LH will order the A220 for itself. They might wait for further improvements and higher output of the frames. The news about an undisclosed A220LR/XLR shows that improvements might be / are on the way.

I believe LH/LH group will order far more A220s. They must be doing a demand list with Airbus/Pratt. How many are to be ordered is the question, not if.

I also think LH will order more A320NEOs of various sizes.

Production is slowly improving. Improvements are planned. The customer base of the A220 is growing which improves economy of scale (e g, AF order).

The order list and status (when first flying)
Delta: 95 (opperating)
JetBlue: 70 (2020)
Moxie: 60 (2021)
AirBaltic: 50 (opperating)
Air Canada 45 (2020)
LH group 30 (opperating)

LOI
Air France 60 (not yet firm)

Large orders in play:
IAG
Spirit Airlines

Orders help improvements (PiPs) which helps sales. Today's A320NEO is not the A320-100 (which wouldn't sell today). I think LH will order more. When and how many? Or they just use their options.

Lightsaber
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kimimm19
Topic Author
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Re: LH and the a220

Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:52 pm

Does anyone know when the a319s will need expensive checks (at LH)?
 
VV
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Re: LH and the a220

Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:06 am

Is there any possibility they would look into other aircraft than A220 or A319neo?
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH and the a220

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:06 pm

VV wrote:
Is there any possibility they would look into other aircraft than A220 or A319neo?

They've never looked at A319neo.
Last flown aircrafts: A320 OE-LBL < A320 OE-LBU < A319 OE-LDE < A320 OE-LBZ < A320 D-AIPL < A319 D-AIBA < E190 HB-JVL < A320 HB-IJR < A321 VP-BKQ < A321 VP-BAV < A320 HB-JLP < BCS3 HB-JCB < A319 D-AILF < A320 D-AIPM
 
ewt340
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Re: LH and the a220

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:55 pm

Looking at their group fleet. They have 43 E-jets and 35 CRJ. All of them are the larger variants of their family models. All their Q400 in their group are planned to be retired in near future.
So, I do see A220-100 being a big possibility in the future.

Problem is, Lufthansa loved to keep aircraft to a very old age. Many of their E-jets are being moved from mainline to subsidiaries majority of the time. So we wouldn't see replacements for at least 5+ years.
 
kimimm19
Topic Author
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Re: LH and the a220

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:06 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Looking at their group fleet. They have 43 E-jets and 35 CRJ. All of them are the larger variants of their family models. All their Q400 in their group are planned to be retired in near future.
So, I do see A220-100 being a big possibility in the future.

Problem is, Lufthansa loved to keep aircraft to a very old age. Many of their E-jets are being moved from mainline to subsidiaries majority of the time. So we wouldn't see replacements for at least 5+ years.



Perhaps, but that was Delta's strategy and even they are conceding that high oil prices can negate the effects of low ownership costs.
 
VV
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:19 am

A321Lufthansa wrote:
VV wrote:
Is there any possibility they would look into other aircraft than A220 or A319neo?

They've never looked at A319neo.


Okay, do you have any information or opinion as whether they might look into E190/E195-E2?
 
Jomar777
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:17 am

LH has plenty of data from LX in regards to the A220s and yet has ordered a big fat NONE for themselves. Even with their A319s, E-Jets, etc etc there, they could have got some mayve for capacity increase but nothing came. Some of their A320s could have been replaced by the A223 but this haven't happened.
I still feel they will have the A220s on their fleet mainly because Airbus will lay into them as they did with Air France (both countries do prop up Airbus) - not much effort there since it is a good plane.
But it makes me wonder why have then not done so yet.
My bet is production slots issue - improving but not there at all. A massive order would take years to be fulfilled altough - again - you expect at least 3-5 years before those A319s start going away (mianly down to the subsidiaries first).
 
Someone83
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:51 am

ewt340 wrote:
Many of their E-jets are being moved from mainline to subsidiaries majority of the time. So we wouldn't see replacements for at least 5+ years.


Have any of their E-jets been with Lufthansa mainline?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:37 am

I honestly believe it's only a question of time before we are seeing the A220 in LH colours....
 
columba
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:37 am

According to an interview with Lufthansa´s CEO Carsten Spohr from June 2018 he said that they are satisfied with the CSeries/A220 and that they could be an option for Lufthansa City Line (but no plans so far). Early this year he also said that the 737 Max is an option for LH Group. So far I have not read any comments regaring the E2 but I am sure Lufthansa is taking a close look here as well. CSeries/A220 for me makes great sense and I am very sure that they will order more
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OA940
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:56 am

I see the A220-100 joining the LH fleet soon enough. As many have said, it can be the perfect replacement for the E195s and CRJ-900s while also upsizing. Assuming the A320neo would replace the A319s it would also leave a gap for the A220-300 to be introduced to bridge, though I'm not too sure
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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zkojq
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:33 pm

[*]
Jomar777 wrote:
I still feel they will have the A220s on their fleet mainly because Airbus will lay into them as they did with Air France (both countries do prop up Airbus) - not much effort there since it is a good plane.


Airbus is a going concern and would be even if AFKL + LH Group cancelled all their Airbus orders tomorrow. No country props up Airbus - the competitive market props up Airbus.
First to fly the 787-9
 
jghealey
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:54 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
LH has plenty of data from LX in regards to the A220s and yet has ordered a big fat NONE for themselves. Even with their A319s, E-Jets, etc etc there, they could have got some mayve for capacity increase but nothing came. Some of their A320s could have been replaced by the A223 but this haven't happened.
I still feel they will have the A220s on their fleet mainly because Airbus will lay into them as they did with Air France (both countries do prop up Airbus) - not much effort there since it is a good plane.
But it makes me wonder why have then not done so yet.
My bet is production slots issue - improving but not there at all. A massive order would take years to be fulfilled altough - again - you expect at least 3-5 years before those A319s start going away (mianly down to the subsidiaries first).

LH said a few months back that due to poorer financial performance recently they wouldn't be making the narrowbody replacement order just yet and said it would be made next year. The CRJs and E-Jets as well as most of the A319s are mostly around the 10 year old mark so have plenty of years of service left in them and thus the need to order A220s is less pressing. I don't think the A319s are moving to CityLine as a replacement but rather due to the cheaper labour costs they have negiotiated with employees there.

LH also doesn't particularly need all the aircraft to be delivered in a short space of time, with Swiss' replacement of 25 Avro RJ100s the A220 deliveries over 3 years worked out quite nicely - and that was before production started to ramp up.
 
ewt340
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:28 pm

Someone83 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Many of their E-jets are being moved from mainline to subsidiaries majority of the time. So we wouldn't see replacements for at least 5+ years.


Have any of their E-jets been with Lufthansa mainline?


Austrian only. But Swiss have some Embraer from back in the day.
 
jghealey
Posts: 136
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:37 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Many of their E-jets are being moved from mainline to subsidiaries majority of the time. So we wouldn't see replacements for at least 5+ years.


Have any of their E-jets been with Lufthansa mainline?


Austrian only. But Swiss have some Embraer from back in the day.

Swiss had some E145s for a couple of years back when they took over from Swissair but never any E-Jets.
 
runway23
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Re: LH and the a220

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:45 pm

jghealey wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:

Have any of their E-jets been with Lufthansa mainline?


Austrian only. But Swiss have some Embraer from back in the day.

Swiss had some E145s for a couple of years back when they took over from Swissair but never any E-Jets.


Technically not correct either.

The 145s were operated by Crossair, never by Swissair. Crossair became Swiss and the 145s just stayed within the same airline.

Crossair was supposed to be the launch customer of the 170 but the SR Group bankruptcy/financial troubles pushed back then killed that order as well as the A340-600s.

The E-Jets operating LX flights today are operated by Helvetic.
 
jghealey
Posts: 136
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Re: LH and the a220

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:58 am

runway23 wrote:
jghealey wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Austrian only. But Swiss have some Embraer from back in the day.

Swiss had some E145s for a couple of years back when they took over from Swissair but never any E-Jets.


Technically not correct either.

The 145s were operated by Crossair, never by Swissair. Crossair became Swiss and the 145s just stayed within the same airline.

Crossair was supposed to be the launch customer of the 170 but the SR Group bankruptcy/financial troubles pushed back then killed that order as well as the A340-600s.

The E-Jets operating LX flights today are operated by Helvetic.

A number of 145s were painted in the Swiss livery for a short time. Crossair became Swiss as you said and therefore the E145s were presumably operated by Swiss - the same airline would be Swiss?
https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-e145-232.htm
 
vandoc
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Re: LH and the a220

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:18 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
Does anyone know when the a319s will need expensive checks (at LH)?


D-AIL* (20-24 years old) will need another expensive check within the next 3 years.

D-AIB* (7-11 years old) have between 2 to 5 years until heavy mx. If we consider the normal Lufthansa lifecycle a replacement is needed in aprox 6 years from now.

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