345tas
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BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:00 pm

Hello,

I tried searching for previous topics on this and did a bit of Googling but didn't find anything...

What role does the A351 play in BA's fleet?

Some thoughts:
- It brings BA's long haul fleet type count to 5 (4 when the 747 goes), but I thought generally speaking it is more efficient to focus a fleet around two to three types for maintenance/training etc reasons
- Seat count and configuration-wise it replaces the 77E, but only 18 are on order whereas BA has 40+ 77Es
- The routes announced so far don't stretch its legs in terms of range at all

BA's first 78Js are reportedly being delivered next year, wouldn't it have made more sense to simply order more of those, if range is not an issue? Or wait for the 777-9X? The A351s also seem to be a like-for-like replacement for the Y-heavy 744, but ostensibly isn't that what the 777-9X is for?

Or is it a case of needing capacity increase and the a351 was a way of getting when it was needed? Or is this a deliberate introduction of a new aircraft type in case of issues with the Boeing additions?

Any insights appreciated.
 
anrec80
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:24 pm

Isn’t A350-1000 a 77W replacement? 772 is more 359? Is BA even ordering 359?
 
evanb
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:29 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Isn’t A350-1000 a 77W replacement? 772 is more 359? Is BA even ordering 359?


BA are de facto replacing some of the B747-400 with the A350-1000. It's not a like-for-like replacement though.
 
hibtastic
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:39 pm

I’d expect them to order more A350 at some point.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:50 pm

A350s are mainly replacing 3 and 4 class LHR B772 routes and Mid-J B747 aircraft.
Extra and existing B77Ws will be reconfigured and will replace High-J B747 aircraft.
B781s will replace current 4 class B772 and B77W routes.
Some B772s will leave the fleet and some will go to LGW.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:22 pm

The 777-9X, 787-9 and 777-300ER (plus most Heathrow-based 777-200ERs) are 4-class. The A350-1000 and 787-8 do not have a First cabin. Therefore, I think you're onto something with the 35K being a Mid-J 747 replacement.

The 788 is for low-yielding low/medium-volume longhaul routes (ISB, JED, CAI, MSY), while the 35K is for low-yielding high-volume ones (DEN, PHX, LOS, YVR). The 779 will replace the Super Hi-J 744 (and maybe the A380?) and will be reserved for BA's flagship destinations like SIN, HKG, PVG, SYD, SFO, LAX (plus SEA in summer)

Compared with the Mid-J 744 at 14 First, 52 Club World, 36 World Traveller Plus and 235 World Traveller (337 total), the 35K is 56 Club World, 56 WT+ and 219 WT (331 total, almost equivalent to the 744). The 35K is about 5% more premium-heavy than the 744, with 4 more CW seats and 20 more (!) WT+ seats. The proportion of CW seats is 10% more than the 744, and the proportion of WT+ seats is 58% more. The share of WT seats decreases from 70% to 66%, or about 6%.

This tells me that BA configured the 35K for 744-level loads, but with an added emphasis on the profitable CW and WT+ cabins. Large corporations and governments don't compensate employees for first class travel like they used to*, and as double-decker aircraft (some with 1980s engine technology**) became unpopular in the post-9/11 era of $50+/bbl oil, many airlines have just decided to do away with first class altogether; or limit it to 777s while leaving it out of 787s/A350s in their fleet. On the other hand, demand for business class and premium economy is growing, especially as more frequent flyer programs switch from distance-based earning/redemption to revenue-based, which will make loyalty upgrades/status a thing of the past (Alex Cruz told the South China Morning Post in March of last year that BA would follow suit, but I haven't heard anything about it since; to my knowledge, Executive Club remains 100% distance-based).

The 35K launch routes are:
-Bengaluru
-Tel Aviv
-One of 2 daily services to Toronto (BA93/92, the afternoon flight)
-One of 3 daily services to Dubai (BA107/106, the overnight flight)

I think the 35K will shine in both YYZ and TLV. I don't think UK-Israel O&D is very premium-heavy, and I know for a fact that demand to Canada in general is not very premium-heavy at all. I'm just wondering why the afternoon flight to YYZ was picked, and not the evening flight. I expect the 35K will be operated to my home airport of YVR by at least 2024 when the last 744 will be retired. I also expect the 779 to replace the Super Hi-J 744 to SEA during summer (whenever Boeing fixes the 777X engine and cargo door issues, that is...)

I personally have two questions:

1. I thought routes like Dubai and Bengaluru were jewels in BA's crown. The massive UK-UAE O&D demand does not require any further explanation, and Bengaluru's booming tech industry is generating a lot of premium demand (Lufthansa flies a 747-8i into BLR). Why such a relatively Y-heavy aircraft going to those two premium-heavy destinations? Perhaps for DXB it has to do with the timing of the specific flight?

2. Would 56J/56W/219Y of the 35K be too premium-heavy for a leisure/VFR heavy destination like YVR?

Footnotes:
*-The cutbacks to corporate travel policies date back at least to the dotcom bust, but I think 9/11 and especially the global financial meltdown of 2008-09 accelerated the practice.
**-The PW4000 engine, the type used for United and Northwest's 747-400 fleet, dates back to 1982 and had its first successful run in 1984. Obviously the A380 engines are far more modern.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:48 pm

Your belief that JED and LOS are low yield is bizarre.

YVR isn't a leisure destination, BA offers 111 flat beds every day to and from YVR.

93/2 was picked as it is more premium heavy than the 99/98.

BLR, DXB and TLV were picked to respond to competition from AI, EK and VS/LY respectively. They certainly weren't picked for fuel saving purposes.
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:53 pm

leftcoast8 wrote:
The 777-9X, 787-9 and 777-300ER (plus most Heathrow-based 777-200ERs) are 4-class. The A350-1000 and 787-8 do not have a First cabin. Therefore, I think you're onto something with the 35K being a Mid-J 747 replacement.

The 788 is for low-yielding low/medium-volume longhaul routes (ISB, JED, CAI, MSY), while the 35K is for low-yielding high-volume ones (DEN, PHX, LOS, YVR). The 779 will replace the Super Hi-J 744 (and maybe the A380?) and will be reserved for BA's flagship destinations like SIN, HKG, PVG, SYD, SFO, LAX (plus SEA in summer)


PHX is currently and for many years served by Mid J 747, this winter going to 787-900 then next summer 777-300 all of which offer First Class Cabin. So your logic on low-yielding high-volume is not valid. Otherwise PHX wouldnt/continue to be served in 4 classes
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leftcoast8
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:45 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Your belief that JED and LOS are low yield is bizarre.

YVR isn't a leisure destination, BA offers 111 flat beds every day to and from YVR.


Due to the time limit on editing posts (I really wish that didn't exist), I'll have to address your concerns in a separate post:

When I say low-yielding, I meant not in general, but "relative to BA's more premium-heavy destinations". But, I just discovered that the 789 is going to JED 4-5 times a week in Sept/Oct, so yes, I was mistaken. I stand by what I said about Lagos though. It gets the Mid-J and flies out of T3. Compared to JNB, I'd say it's fair to say BA gets lower yields to LOS.

As for YVR. While yes it's not a 100% sun and sand destination like PVR/CUN, there isn't a whole lot of business demand to YVR either. A large amount of BA's traffic on the YVR route is Alaska cruise ship travellers from Europe, or connections to India. It gets the mid-J instead of the Super Hi-J, operates out of T3 instead of T5 at Heathrow. Plus AC already has lots of capacity to LHR; 450 seat 77W in winter and double daily (789 + 788) from June 1-Sept 1.

At nearby SEA, BA has invested in two LHR slots year-round (10/week 772 in winter, double daily (Super Hi-J + 772) in summer); YVR only went more than daily in summer to account for cruise ship demand, and it's been replaced by the A380 for the past couple of summers. This was actually a reduction in capacity, from 12x weekly mid J with 4,044 seats PWEW to daily 388 with 3,289 seats PWEW.

And on the subject of capacity. SEA gets much more premium capacity from BA than YVR, either in winter or in summer. Here are the PWEW numbers:

BA winter W+ capacity to SEA: 1,020 (10x 772, 14F/48J/40W)
BA winter W+ capacity to YVR: 318 (7x 744, 14F/52J/36W)
BA summer W+ capacity to SEA: 1,624 (7x SHJ + 7x 772, SHJ is 14F/86J/30W)
BA summer W+ capacity to YVR: 1,162 (7x 388, 14F/97J/55W)

And that's just Seattle, when you compare YVR to SFO or LAX (two of the crown jewels in BA's North American network) that get year-round A380/SHJ and double-daily A380s, respectively, it really seems that YVR is more of a backwater town (I've lived in Vancouver all my life so it's not like I'm some out-of-towner here).

BA744PHX wrote:
PHX is currently and for many years served by Mid J 747, this winter going to 787-900 then next summer 777-300 all of which offer First Class Cabin. So your logic on low-yielding high-volume is not valid. Otherwise PHX wouldnt/continue to be served in 4 classes


Don't think of what I said as equating the lack of First with lower yields. All I meant was, it would make sense if the 3-class 35K went to less premium-heavy destinations and the 4-class 779 went to more premium-heavy destinations. But that's all moot if PHX is getting the 789 and 77W (which I didn't know about); it puts a spanner into my reasoning. I still say the 35K would do well at DEN and maybe even MIA
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:51 am

789 has been operating JED for good few years. It features just 216 seats including First which is precisely why BA is operating this aircraft on high yielding routes such as JED.

LOS isn't operated out of T3, you got that wrong. It is operated by a Mid-J B747 because of enormous demand for Y class which wouldn't be satisfied on a Super High-J B747. Is it one of few routes where putting more Y class seats makes sense given the astronomical yields.

A very good indicator of yields is the Cheapest Fares option on ba.com. The minimum return fare advertised for a flight to LOS in economy in October is £523 and to JNB it is £557. That is a tiny £34 difference for a flight 4 hours longer. Same goes for JED - £522 minimum fare which is the second highest in the Middle East only surpassed by RUH. And again same goes for YVR - the minimum fare is higher for YVR than for SEA in all classes.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:22 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
The 777-9X, 787-9 and 777-300ER (plus most Heathrow-based 777-200ERs) are 4-class. The A350-1000 and 787-8 do not have a First cabin. Therefore, I think you're onto something with the 35K being a Mid-J 747 replacement.


Not completely true, the configuration on the 35K announced is only confirmed for the first batch of aircraft. BA have not ruled out that an F class will be configured on later aircraft, but it would indeed seem the plausible route forwards. I can't find it now but there was a feed where the engineers on a.net were talking the different economics between the 779 vs 35K and distance wise where they are better or worse than one another.

leftcoast8 wrote:
The 779 will replace the Super Hi-J 744 (and maybe the A380?) and will be reserved for BA's flagship destinations like SIN, HKG, PVG, SYD, SFO, LAX (plus SEA in summer)


The 779, although bigger than the 35K is more or less a 744 replacement, certainly no way an A380 replacement and certainly not a meaningful increase in capacity. It will be interesting to see later configurations which have a high J configuration fitted to it. So far we have only seen a mid-J variant. This is the key point IMO.

It is very understandable to be confused by the BA WB order as it seems to make very little sense when operating from the worlds most congested hub in a world of rising aviation numbers. When this was tendered A offered a mix of 380s and 35Ks while B offered the 779 as it is all they have. BA went solely with the latter, leaving some head scratching and effectively putting the final nail in the 380 (if the 380 wont be bought for LHR hub operations where will it be bought for?). The only way to look at it is in typical BA fashion of the day, fares will naturally rise over the restricted capacity they provide against the inevitable growing demand, giving greater yield to shareholders at the expense of the travelling public. Instead of meeting that demand with more seats, they will create demand destruction at their restricted hub.

Lets remember that the 779 order came with a chunk of options which may or may not be taken at all or in entirety. I'm still hopeful there will be a purchase of half a dozen 380s from LH or someone who doesn't need/want and that we are only in mid strategy for the WB long haul fleet order. If so this would make a lot more sense and would also show some ambitious strategy to grow rather than just making people pay more for seats. The point being until we see what the total fleet will look like, and further what the cabin configs look like, it will continue to be a puzzling question.
 
jghealey
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:03 am

anrec80 wrote:
Isn’t A350-1000 a 77W replacement? 772 is more 359? Is BA even ordering 359?

The A350-1000 isn't a 77W replacement, BA's 77Ws are still relatively young. BA hasn't got any A359s on order at the moment, but to me the A359 seems an ideal replacement for the 43 777-200ERs they have in their fleet, I think we could definitely see an A359 order; however, BA has ordered 777x with lots of options and there are also the 787-10s joining the fleet soon. Then again, these 777x seem to be a more natural replacement for the 747; I don't think BA has got round to deciding their 772 fleet replacement, as I believe they will be keeping them for a while longer - if I remember correctly some of their oldest examples are going to be retrofitted with the new club suite cabins which would suggest they'll be keeping them for a good few years. BA seems to be increasingly less averse to keeping older aircraft - although they're retiring the A319s, there are currently no replacement plans slated for their ageing A320s and 321s and obviously also the 777s.
 
Andy33
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:18 am

jghealey wrote:
The A350-1000 isn't a 77W replacement, BA's 77Ws are still relatively young.

So much so that there are still 4 77Ws not yet delivered, they will arrive during 2020. BA are hardly placing orders to replace planes that haven't even been delivered yet.
 
jfk777
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:33 pm

Willie Walsh wanted to buy more A380 but always complained about the prices Airbus gave him. He is a bargain shopper which is why IAG is buying 200 737 MAX planes. Its likely BA will get 6 ex-Lufthansa A380 since they are nearly worthless to anyone else. The future BA long haul fleet of 787, A350-1000, A380 and 777 is solid.
 
jghealey
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:15 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Willie Walsh wanted to buy more A380 but always complained about the prices Airbus gave him. He is a bargain shopper which is why IAG is buying 200 737 MAX planes. Its likely BA will get 6 ex-Lufthansa A380 since they are nearly worthless to anyone else. The future BA long haul fleet of 787, A350-1000, A380 and 777 is solid.

The issue with second-hand A380s is less the purchase price - I'm sure this is low since nobody wants them - but the cost of refurbishment. This is huge given the size of the aircraft. BA doesn't want to have to spend several million per aircraft in refurbishments. The price Airbus gave them may have included refurbishments hence it being high.
 
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Revelation
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:29 pm

jghealey wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Willie Walsh wanted to buy more A380 but always complained about the prices Airbus gave him. He is a bargain shopper which is why IAG is buying 200 737 MAX planes. Its likely BA will get 6 ex-Lufthansa A380 since they are nearly worthless to anyone else. The future BA long haul fleet of 787, A350-1000, A380 and 777 is solid.

The issue with second-hand A380s is less the purchase price - I'm sure this is low since nobody wants them - but the cost of refurbishment. This is huge given the size of the aircraft. BA doesn't want to have to spend several million per aircraft in refurbishments. The price Airbus gave them may have included refurbishments hence it being high.

Not to mention we can see how maintaining it going forward is going to be a lot more costly than some of the "grand dames" in BA's fleet.

747 line is still up and running for freighters which means consumables are also in production. USAF is going to be running 747-8i for AF1 use so the spares chain will be kept running for the US military.

777s were built in large numbers and 777X will use many of the same consumables so it will be up and running for a long time, not to mention 77F will not switch over to 77X technology for several more years if ever.

A380 will be the odd man out. No military use, no freighter use, engine market split two ways limiting MRO appeal, custom interior on each airline's aircraft making interior refit expensive, huge trip cost limiting appeal to secondary operators etc. The only saving grace will be warehouses filled with parts from scrapped planes, but that doesn't help with consumables.
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Strato2
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
jghealey wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Willie Walsh wanted to buy more A380 but always complained about the prices Airbus gave him. He is a bargain shopper which is why IAG is buying 200 737 MAX planes. Its likely BA will get 6 ex-Lufthansa A380 since they are nearly worthless to anyone else. The future BA long haul fleet of 787, A350-1000, A380 and 777 is solid.

The issue with second-hand A380s is less the purchase price - I'm sure this is low since nobody wants them - but the cost of refurbishment. This is huge given the size of the aircraft. BA doesn't want to have to spend several million per aircraft in refurbishments. The price Airbus gave them may have included refurbishments hence it being high.

Not to mention we can see how maintaining it going forward is going to be a lot more costly than some of the "grand dames" in BA's fleet.

747 line is still up and running for freighters which means consumables are also in production. USAF is going to be running 747-8i for AF1 use so the spares chain will be kept running for the US military.

777s were built in large numbers and 777X will use many of the same consumables so it will be up and running for a long time, not to mention 77F will not switch over to 77X technology for several more years if ever.

A380 will be the odd man out. No military use, no freighter use, engine market split two ways limiting MRO appeal, custom interior on each airline's aircraft making interior refit expensive, huge trip cost limiting appeal to secondary operators etc. The only saving grace will be warehouses filled with parts from scrapped planes, but that doesn't help with consumables.


Congratulations on writing perhaps the most ridiculous post in a-net history. :lol: The A380 will have a fleet in excess of 250. The 747-400 is a 30 year old relic with fast dwindling numbers. 747-8i situation is downright pathetic. With a worldwide fleet of 35 it's hopelessly unefficient to maintain. The super specialized AF1 frames will do nothing to help.Do you really think Boeing will keep the supply chain at full steam for TWO planes?
 
kotoka
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:19 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
789 has been operating JED for good few years. It features just 216 seats including First which is precisely why BA is operating this aircraft on high yielding routes such as JED.

LOS isn't operated out of T3, you got that wrong. It is operated by a Mid-J B747 because of enormous demand for Y class which wouldn't be satisfied on a Super High-J B747. Is it one of few routes where putting more Y class seats makes sense given the astronomical yields.

A very good indicator of yields is the Cheapest Fares option on ba.com. The minimum return fare advertised for a flight to LOS in economy in October is £523 and to JNB it is £557. That is a tiny £34 difference for a flight 4 hours longer. Same goes for JED - £522 minimum fare which is the second highest in the Middle East only surpassed by RUH. And again same goes for YVR - the minimum fare is higher for YVR than for SEA in all classes.


BA flights to LOS are operated on a Super hi-j 747.
 
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:36 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Congratulations on writing perhaps the most ridiculous post in a-net history. :lol: The A380 will have a fleet in excess of 250. The 747-400 is a 30 year old relic with fast dwindling numbers. 747-8i situation is downright pathetic. With a worldwide fleet of 35 it's hopelessly unefficient to maintain. The super specialized AF1 frames will do nothing to help.Do you really think Boeing will keep the supply chain at full steam for TWO planes?

Congratulations for one of the most egregious uses of exaggeration and distortion in a.net history. :lol: I did not write AF1 will keep the supply chain at full steam, I wrote that requirements for AF1 will keep the supply chain up along with 747F requirements, whereas A380 has no military or government use, no freighter use, engine market split two ways limiting MRO appeal, custom interior on each airline's aircraft making interior refit expensive, huge trip cost limiting appeal to secondary operators etc. A380 has only had SQ say it will invest in refreshing its interiors to extend its life, on the other side of the equation we have AF retiring early because the interior refit was too expensive to justify, LH cancelling orders and selling frames back to Airbus, EK cancelling orders and putting retirement plans into effect, etc. Therefore your 250 frame count is just a snap shot in time that will draw down quite rapidly as costs for keeping them running escalate. It is obvious that 747 will outlive A380 in the form of AF1 and 747-8F as they don't fly many cycles per year and no one is announcing plans to retire them. Heck, 747-8i as AF1 is not even in service yet!
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lhrsfosyd91
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:54 pm

kotoka wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
789 has been operating JED for good few years. It features just 216 seats including First which is precisely why BA is operating this aircraft on high yielding routes such as JED.

LOS isn't operated out of T3, you got that wrong. It is operated by a Mid-J B747 because of enormous demand for Y class which wouldn't be satisfied on a Super High-J B747. Is it one of few routes where putting more Y class seats makes sense given the astronomical yields.

A very good indicator of yields is the Cheapest Fares option on ba.com. The minimum return fare advertised for a flight to LOS in economy in October is £523 and to JNB it is £557. That is a tiny £34 difference for a flight 4 hours longer. Same goes for JED - £522 minimum fare which is the second highest in the Middle East only surpassed by RUH. And again same goes for YVR - the minimum fare is higher for YVR than for SEA in all classes.


BA flights to LOS are operated on a Super hi-j 747.


They weren't in August.
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:55 pm

A plane full of passengers on flexible J and W fares could in BA accounting terms be more premium than one where F is full of miles upgrades and J is mostly discounted inflexible tickets. I think LOS or JED are examples of routes with rich people paying for their own tickets in F as a status symbol, not so much corporate travel which is more likely to be J.

BA is moving towards 8F on new and refurbished planes, previously was mostly 14F, there is a place for F, hence the 779 order, but it's not on every route. I suppose BA could offer some kind of paid upgrade to 'CCR-J' on 3 class routes to allow a nicer terminal experience and access to First check in and the Concorde Room, but many regular J travelers will have Gold Cards so don't have to deal with the regular J lounge anyway.
 
RexBanner
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:44 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Not completely true, the configuration on the 35K announced is only confirmed for the first batch of aircraft. BA have not ruled out that an F class will be configured on later aircraft


Yes they have. If you’re talking about the options they hold then who knows what config they’ll be in but none of the 18 on firm order are going to have First Class. That’s confirmed.
 
Scotron12
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:33 pm

Weird that no A350 has an F cabin! The plane is certainly big enough...BA total capacity is 331 on theirs..Im sure they could accommodate at least 8 First at the cost of a few J and Y seats.

Meanwhile...they are deploying them to DXB..then to YYZ and then TLV and BLR.

Maybe no demand for F on those routes
 
moyangmm
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:39 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Weird that no A350 has an F cabin! The plane is certainly big enough...BA total capacity is 331 on theirs..Im sure they could accommodate at least 8 First at the cost of a few J and Y seats.

Meanwhile...they are deploying them to DXB..then to YYZ and then TLV and BLR.

Maybe no demand for F on those routes


In fact, all airlines use A350-1000 on less premium routes with no-F, low-J, and high-Y configurations, compared with their 77W. CX's A350-1000 doesn't have F either. Is there a reason that A350-1000 is not suitable for premium routes?
 
Scotron12
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:50 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Weird that no A350 has an F cabin! The plane is certainly big enough...BA total capacity is 331 on theirs..Im sure they could accommodate at least 8 First at the cost of a few J and Y seats.

Meanwhile...they are deploying them to DXB..then to YYZ and then TLV and BLR.

Maybe no demand for F on those routes


In fact, all airlines use A350-1000 on less premium routes with no-F, low-J, and high-Y configurations, compared with their 77W. CX's A350-1000 doesn't have F either. Is there a reason that A350-1000 is not suitable for premium routes?


CX 77Ws (JFK, LHR etc)only have 6 F...total seat count 275. Their A350-1000s have total seat count of 334.
 
moyangmm
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Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:25 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Weird that no A350 has an F cabin! The plane is certainly big enough...BA total capacity is 331 on theirs..Im sure they could accommodate at least 8 First at the cost of a few J and Y seats.

Meanwhile...they are deploying them to DXB..then to YYZ and then TLV and BLR.

Maybe no demand for F on those routes


In fact, all airlines use A350-1000 on less premium routes with no-F, low-J, and high-Y configurations, compared with their 77W. CX's A350-1000 doesn't have F either. Is there a reason that A350-1000 is not suitable for premium routes?


CX 77Ws (JFK, LHR etc)only have 6 F...total seat count 275. Their A350-1000s have total seat count of 334.


But their 77W also has higher J ratio:

777-300ER 6F53J34W182Y
350-1000 0F46J32W256Y

Airlines send their best aircraft on their most valuable routes. A350-1000, or any airbus wide-body for that matter, is not good enough for premium routes.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:33 pm

Global F demand is shrinking, so it stands to reason A350s being the newest airplane available will thus have configurations that reflect the most current market trends - the decline of F class being one of them, and tighter Y class being another, hence the relatively dense configurations seen by BA, CX and others.

This will become the norm moving forward, with F being more of a rarity, seen on select aircraft serving select few routes.

Look at LHR-DXB for example, probably one of the most premium routes on the planet, yet BA has put it's A35J there. That says something about the value placed on F vs say, a market leading J product such as the new club suite. Don't look at the flight under a microscope, look at the route as a whole.

Putting the A35J on YYZ, I wouldn't suggest it's because of a low F demand insofar as AC runs 4x daily flights, so BA has to compete with a significantly better schedule offered by their competitor. A350 is a great way to do that.

TLV, they have El Al and their new 787s with brand new cabins, and Virgin entering the market. It's in their best interest to offer a competitive product and distinguish themselves.

BLR has local demand, and I also imagine a ton of connections, competing against LH with the 748 from FRA, the A350 offers BA more seats to compete on price, and a better product in J which I imagine does well to a tech industry city like BLR.

I feel like people are getting too fixated F vs the lack thereof, and forgetting that it only makes up a tiny fraction of the available seats anyhow, and is highly dependant on actually filling the cabin to prevent massive losses.
 
Eyad89
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:36 pm

moyangmm wrote:


Is there a reason that A350-1000 is not suitable for premium routes?


Yes, the wing angle of A350-1000 doesn’t allow for F class seats. Unlike 787, especially 787–10, it offers the best F class seats.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:56 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
Global F demand is shrinking, so it stands to reason A350s being the newest airplane available will thus have configurations that reflect the most current market trends - the decline of F class being one of them, and tighter Y class being another, hence the relatively dense configurations seen by BA, CX and others.

This will become the norm moving forward, with F being more of a rarity, seen on select aircraft serving select few routes.

Look at LHR-DXB for example, probably one of the most premium routes on the planet, yet BA has put it's A35J there. That says something about the value placed on F vs say, a market leading J product such as the new club suite. Don't look at the flight under a microscope, look at the route as a whole.

Putting the A35J on YYZ, I wouldn't suggest it's because of a low F demand insofar as AC runs 4x daily flights, so BA has to compete with a significantly better schedule offered by their competitor. A350 is a great way to do that.

TLV, they have El Al and their new 787s with brand new cabins, and Virgin entering the market. It's in their best interest to offer a competitive product and distinguish themselves.

BLR has local demand, and I also imagine a ton of connections, competing against LH with the 748 from FRA, the A350 offers BA more seats to compete on price, and a better product in J which I imagine does well to a tech industry city like BLR.

I feel like people are getting too fixated F vs the lack thereof, and forgetting that it only makes up a tiny fraction of the available seats anyhow, and is highly dependant on actually filling the cabin to prevent massive losses.


While I agree that demand for F is shrinking in general, there are still a few airlines that are investing in F. BA is one of them. They specifically ordered 777-9 for ultra-premium routes such as JFK-LHR with F and a lot of J.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:58 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
moyangmm wrote:


Is there a reason that A350-1000 is not suitable for premium routes?


Yes, the wing angle of A350-1000 doesn’t allow for F class seats. Unlike 787, especially 787–10, it offers the best F class seats.


I would say the width of A350-1000 is not enough for a 1-2-1 F layout. F passengers expect 1-2-1 on 777, not on A350. Therefore, only 77W, and 777-9 in the future, can offer true F class seats.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:16 pm

moyangmm wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Global F demand is shrinking, so it stands to reason A350s being the newest airplane available will thus have configurations that reflect the most current market trends - the decline of F class being one of them, and tighter Y class being another, hence the relatively dense configurations seen by BA, CX and others.

This will become the norm moving forward, with F being more of a rarity, seen on select aircraft serving select few routes.

Look at LHR-DXB for example, probably one of the most premium routes on the planet, yet BA has put it's A35J there. That says something about the value placed on F vs say, a market leading J product such as the new club suite. Don't look at the flight under a microscope, look at the route as a whole.

Putting the A35J on YYZ, I wouldn't suggest it's because of a low F demand insofar as AC runs 4x daily flights, so BA has to compete with a significantly better schedule offered by their competitor. A350 is a great way to do that.

TLV, they have El Al and their new 787s with brand new cabins, and Virgin entering the market. It's in their best interest to offer a competitive product and distinguish themselves.

BLR has local demand, and I also imagine a ton of connections, competing against LH with the 748 from FRA, the A350 offers BA more seats to compete on price, and a better product in J which I imagine does well to a tech industry city like BLR.

I feel like people are getting too fixated F vs the lack thereof, and forgetting that it only makes up a tiny fraction of the available seats anyhow, and is highly dependant on actually filling the cabin to prevent massive losses.


While I agree that demand for F is shrinking in general, there are still a few airlines that are investing in F. BA is one of them. They specifically ordered 777-9 for ultra-premium routes such as JFK-LHR with F and a lot of J.


100% agreed. F will still have it's place, albeit a smaller one than we see today. LHR-JFK/LAX for example will still have real demand for F, that isn't changing any time soon.

moyangmm wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
moyangmm wrote:


Is there a reason that A350-1000 is not suitable for premium routes?


Yes, the wing angle of A350-1000 doesn’t allow for F class seats. Unlike 787, especially 787–10, it offers the best F class seats.


I would say the width of A350-1000 is not enough for a 1-2-1 F layout. F passengers expect 1-2-1 on 777, not on A350. Therefore, only 77W, and 777-9 in the future, can offer true F class seats.


BA and many others fly 787s with F, that cabin is narrower than the A350. Some carriers put F on the upper deck of the A380 or in A330s/A340s which are narrower still. The A350 is PERFECTLY suitable for F class, it's dimensions have zero to due with the lack of F.
 
gloom
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:22 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Airlines send their best aircraft on their most valuable routes. A350-1000, or any airbus wide-body for that matter, is not good enough for premium routes.


No, airlines do not send their planes where the routes are most valuable. They send whole fleet to make as much money as possible.

It seems A350 (both 900 and 1000) are good enough considering lower costs to actually make money on low yield, high demand routes. This, plus high-J config becoming new standard, makes it so good.

If you have similar payload at 20% lower costs per flight (more or less) than 77W, then you'd want to have 77W with F at high yield (since it's higher cost flight) and A350 will make it on low yield as well. Bothg make money then. Remember CX switching to 359 on long thin routes, while switching 77W to other routes?

On the other hand three airlines are having F config on 350 (900 though). I think we will see more, it just seems to be the case now to deploy them to lower per-flight costs. Once it starts to replace F config 777s, we'll definitely see more.

Cheers,
Adam
 
kimimm19
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:20 pm

Passengers realise the the difference for most airlines between F and J do not justify the massive price difference.

Airlines realise passengers have clocked on and so the F demand is shrinking.
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:38 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
certainly no way an A380 replacement and certainly not a meaningful increase in capacity.


Isn't BA going to scrap their A380s in the not too distant future like other airlines (SQ, AF, EK) are planning to do?
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8297
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:57 pm

Airlines send their best aircraft on their most valuable routes. A350-1000, or any airbus wide-body for that matter, is not good enough for premium routes

- What a daft thing to say, obviously a Boeing fan boy.....

I would say the width of A350-1000 is not enough for a 1-2-1 F layout. F passengers expect 1-2-1 on 777, not on A350. Therefore, only 77W, and 777-9 in the future, can offer true F class seats.

- Cathay F is a 1-1-1 layout, 2 rows, 6 seats, I’ve flown it, nice! - A350 can take 1-1-1 as an F layout.
111,732,733,734,735,736,73G,738,739,7M8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312,313,318,319,320,20N,321,332,333,342,343,345,346,388,CS1,CS3,I86,154,SSJ,CRJ,CR7,CR9,145,170,175,220
 
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ACCS300
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:05 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:02 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
certainly no way an A380 replacement and certainly not a meaningful increase in capacity.


Isn't BA going to scrap their A380s in the not too distant future like other airlines (SQ, AF, EK) are planning to do?


Quite the opposite, supposedly BA is shopping for more used 380's.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/british-airways-could-use-another-six-airbus-a380
 
BAorAB
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 10:11 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:03 am

huh?

They fly an A380 daily to YVR, so I don't think premium cabin yields are an issue at YVR!

[quote="leftcoast8"]The 777-9X, 787-9 and 777-300ER (plus most Heathrow-based 777-200ERs) are 4-class. The A350-1000 and 787-8 do not have a First cabin. Therefore, I think you're onto something with the 35K being a Mid-J 747 replacement.


2. Would 56J/56W/219Y of the 35K be too premium-heavy for a leisure/VFR heavy destination like YVR?
 
BAorAB
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 10:11 pm

Re: BA and the A350-1000

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:15 am

Nope!

If BA's history tells you anything, they will run these A380"s into the ground then scrap them!

BA was the longest end to end operator for the 747-200, will be for the 747-400 and the 772, and I don't expect the philosophy to change going forward! Buy New, Utilize hard and until the very end of the airframe's useful life!

Infact, expect 6 more ex LH A380's to be added just as soon as Airbus comes to the realization that BA's lowball offers are still better offers than parting out or the scrap heap. Given the low number of A380's delivered and so many expected early retirements the parts market will end up being dismal.



leftcoast8 wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
certainly no way an A380 replacement and certainly not a meaningful increase in capacity.


Isn't BA going to scrap their A380s in the not too distant future like other airlines (SQ, AF, EK) are planning to do?

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