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BravoOne
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:51 pm

I know nothing regarding the MD80/88 avionics suites but I have read that there is a significant GPS issue that needs attention within the next couple of years and this alone is the driving issue regarding the accelerated retirement schedule. Does anyone have addition information on this subject?
 
ltbewr
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:03 am

The accountants run the companies, not fans of a particular aircraft. Changes in the tax laws, tweaks like accelerating depreciation, high fuel burn rates vs. newer aircraft, dispatch reliability, excessive costs or unavailability of parts, pilot and mx training costs for models with limited lives anyway, are factors leading to the end of the MD-80/MD-90 series.
 
DlTechops
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:06 am

yeah that was a large deciding factor a few years ago they had an upgrade planned and had a company working on it but from my understanding is they fell thorough on there end... so that was i think the first round of were retiring the 88 fleet... now its just parts.
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Bingo1
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:52 am

Interesting discussion. It's gonna make me take note of my MD-80 flight this afternoon from ATL-MEM. Some of my first flights were on NWA DC-9's so it's sad to see the t-tails go.

In numerous places mention was made of engines or other components being rebuilt in large batches and needing them to get good deals on maintenance. With manufacturing moving to the "single part flow" and JIT models why are we not seeing that with MRO's? Is the current MRO system over rype for a industry disruption like that?
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:34 am

BravoOne wrote:
I know nothing regarding the MD80/88 avionics suites but I have read that there is a significant GPS issue that needs attention within the next couple of years and this alone is the driving issue regarding the accelerated retirement schedule. Does anyone have addition information on this subject?


https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... t-cockpits

This piece focuses more on the contractual spat between DL and vendor IS&S, not so much the FAA requirement.

Oil prices, which the U.S. Energy Information Administration says will remain at about $50 per barrel in 2016—down a factor of two from 2013-14—are a key driver in airlines holding on to older aircraft with higher fuel consumption. Modernization occurs in the cockpit, where upgrades solve obsolescence issues and help carriers benefit from satellite-based navigation, and also meet the FAA’s January 2020 mandate for installing Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:53 am

Bingo1 wrote:
Interesting discussion. It's gonna make me take note of my MD-80 flight this afternoon from ATL-MEM. Some of my first flights were on NWA DC-9's so it's sad to see the t-tails go.

In numerous places mention was made of engines or other components being rebuilt in large batches and needing them to get good deals on maintenance. With manufacturing moving to the "single part flow" and JIT models why are we not seeing that with MRO's? Is the current MRO system over rype for a industry disruption like that?


Well, aerospace remains, like it or not, at the pinnacle of technology, and many complex parts are designed with (necessary margins being kept in mind) most advanced technology of the time.
This technology (tooling and materials, too) has to adhere to fairly high requirements, both to its actual condition, and to the state of paperwork and trace-ability of all materials, parts and components.

You are at a dilemma --
if an airplane type is very modern, and common, and is built in quantity -- chances are, components are already manufactured in the most economic way possible, and some parts of technology are patent-protected, or contain unpublished know-how. You would spend a ton of money to try to replicate the performance. And then -- you would have to pay FAA's of this world for a full certification -- of your shop, your supply chain, your quality control, of everything. Not saying that it doesn't work, but your disruptive approach would require a large upfront investment.

if an airplane is already at sunset -- your certification and compliance costs for your new, disruptive break-in, are still high. Parts are probably easier to make, as they are of less bleeding-edge design by now. The amount of parts you sell, to amortize your investment into manufacturing (somewhat lower) and compliance (still huge), and support the running costs for both, is not very high. You face a constant risk of a double hit -- a major operator retiring its fleet (reducing your sales prospects) and scrapping it -- thus making parts available both from cannibalization, and from spare parts stocks released into the open market.

Not undoable, but you have to know very well, what you are getting into, and have fairly deep pockets to get into the game, and stay on top of it.
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RDUDDJI
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:30 pm

DDR wrote:
From a passenger POV, they are also not that great to fly on so for DL it probably makes more sense to retire them than to spend money upgrading them (seatback screens, etc). Is DL using any of their retired MD-80s for parts?


As someone who's flown on about 1600 DL flights, I respectfully disagree. The MD80s are much better than DL's 739s (which I blame DL for configuring poorly) and marginal with the 738. I might give the A32x fam a slight edge on the MD-80 due to its wider fuselage, but from a FF perspective, the best chance for upgrade (% of seats wise) is an MD80. Most people bring their own IFE these days, so having it onboard is a plus, but not a game changer.

My fav is still the 757, but those flights are becoming quite rare.
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:19 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
My fav is still the 757, but those flights are becoming quite rare.


Huh? The 757-200 is the 2nd most common sub-type in the DL fleet, surpassed only by 739s. https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines
 
tnair1974
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:49 am

Are DL's MD88s that might have had ADS-B for awhile generating enough fuel savings to at least somewhat counter the high installation costs?

I've seen on Flightaware/Flightradar24 some seemingly crazy routings. Years ago on multiple occasions, ATL bound DL flights departing from the likes of IND, SDF (both largely MD88s at the time) and LEX (occasional MD88s) sometimes flew east all the way to West Virginia and only then south to ATL. The weather was excellent, so no diverting around storms.

Granted, I've only had limited supervised time at the controls of small Cessnas/Pipers (some of my relatives are/were private pilots) but otherwise I'm not a licensed pilot. I probably have even far less grasp of the operating parameters of jets and other high altitude aircraft.

But does ADS-B eliminate the flying described above?
 
BravoOne
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:35 am

tnair1974 wrote:
Are DL's MD88s that might have had ADS-B for awhile generating enough fuel savings to at least somewhat counter the high installation costs?

I've seen on Flightaware/Flightradar24 some seemingly crazy routings. Years ago on multiple occasions, ATL bound DL flights departing from the likes of IND, SDF (both largely MD88s at the time) and LEX (occasional MD88s) sometimes flew east all the way to West Virginia and only then south to ATL. The weather was excellent, so no diverting around storms.

Granted, I've only had limited supervised time at the controls of small Cessnas/Pipers (some of my relatives are/were private pilots) but otherwise I'm not a licensed pilot. I probably have even far less grasp of the operating parameters of jets and other high altitude aircraft.

But does ADS-B eliminate the flying described above?



ADS-B is not likey to save fuel in the current domestic ATC route structure. The RNAV capabilities can enhance flight flight planing options, both enroute and terminal areas.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:08 pm

I just noted another two Delta retirements.

Down to 91 MD-80/90

It looks like two MD-80s left the fleet. Using the airfleets link.

Now only 240 active MD-80/90
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eal46859
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:38 pm

As a Platinum Medallion member on DL, who's travels were frequently on the MD88 series I am glad to see them go. Often I caught a look at manufacture's tag by the door with the first date of service noted and many of these planes were built when the flight attendants on the flight were infants. Plus the are uncomfortable with limited overhead size and capacity. Good riddance.
 
cschleic
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:16 pm

BravoOne wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
Are DL's MD88s that might have had ADS-B for awhile generating enough fuel savings to at least somewhat counter the high installation costs?

I've seen on Flightaware/Flightradar24 some seemingly crazy routings. Years ago on multiple occasions, ATL bound DL flights departing from the likes of IND, SDF (both largely MD88s at the time) and LEX (occasional MD88s) sometimes flew east all the way to West Virginia and only then south to ATL. The weather was excellent, so no diverting around storms.

Granted, I've only had limited supervised time at the controls of small Cessnas/Pipers (some of my relatives are/were private pilots) but otherwise I'm not a licensed pilot. I probably have even far less grasp of the operating parameters of jets and other high altitude aircraft.

But does ADS-B eliminate the flying described above?



ADS-B is not likey to save fuel in the current domestic ATC route structure. The RNAV capabilities can enhance flight flight planing options, both enroute and terminal areas.


Right. Planes already use GPS for navigation but the waypoints themselves for routing haven't changed. ADS-B primarily switches transponder identification from the transponder responding to the radar signal with the squawk code, altitude and some other data to the transponder transmitting its GPS location and other data (ADS-B Out). Other planes, if equipped - and commercial jets certainly are, can pick up these signals to identify traffic (ADS-B In).
 
dcaviation
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:17 pm

As of today, Delta has 29 active MD-90s and 64 MD-88s
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:50 pm

dcaviation wrote:
As of today, Delta has 29 active MD-90s and 64 MD-88s

This morning they deregistered down to 91:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

I haven't received confirmation on what was deregistered. I believe it was down to 62 MD-88s, but my source on MD-90s registered has had up to a 13 day time lag.

Lightsaber

Late edit, there are now few enough I can manually count my link, still 29 registered MD-90s, so this was down to 62 MD-80s registered.
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727tiger
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:31 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Well I've got two trips booked on DL for the rest of the year. STL-ATL-JFK-ATL-STL and STL-ATL-GCM-ATL-STL and so far I'm getting an MD-88 on both trips. one segment out of four on both trips. Times running out!


Between tomorrow and the weekend before Thanksgiving, I have multiple DL MCI-ATL-SDF and SDF-ATL-MCI trips booked with a mix of MD-88s and 90s on the ATL-SDF-ATL legs. Time is definitely running out, and I'm looking forward to those legs.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:48 pm

Wasn't just a few years ago that Delta was scouring the market for used MD-80/90s? Or am I confusing DL with another carrier?

I enjoyed my rides on the MD-80/90 back in the day, but I can't say I'm sorry to see them go. The ride up front was nice and quiet, but back near the engines the noise and vibration in the cabin was deafening. My last MD-80 flight was several years ago from ATL to SAN. I recall being shocked at the noise and vibration levels as I headed to the aft lavatory.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:04 pm

ATL-SAT, or ATL-SAN? I didn't know MD-88s had the legs for ATL-SAN.
 
bigb
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:06 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
Are DL's MD88s that might have had ADS-B for awhile generating enough fuel savings to at least somewhat counter the high installation costs?

I've seen on Flightaware/Flightradar24 some seemingly crazy routings. Years ago on multiple occasions, ATL bound DL flights departing from the likes of IND, SDF (both largely MD88s at the time) and LEX (occasional MD88s) sometimes flew east all the way to West Virginia and only then south to ATL. The weather was excellent, so no diverting around storms.

Granted, I've only had limited supervised time at the controls of small Cessnas/Pipers (some of my relatives are/were private pilots) but otherwise I'm not a licensed pilot. I probably have even far less grasp of the operating parameters of jets and other high altitude aircraft.

But does ADS-B eliminate the flying described above?

Those Routings are probably to avoid CLT arrival corridors which starts around West Virginia. Mainly the Flipz arrival.
 
727LOVER
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Late edit, there are now few enough I can manually count my link, still 29 registered MD-90s, so this was down to 62 MD-80s registered.


WOW....so half the MD-88 fleet GONE in about a year's time :(
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:26 pm

727LOVER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Late edit, there are now few enough I can manually count my link, still 29 registered MD-90s, so this was down to 62 MD-80s registered.


WOW....so half the MD-88 fleet GONE in about a year's time :(


The Annual Report showed 74 mainline narrowbody purchase commitments for 2019. The company recently reaffirmed its plan for 4% annual domestic growth for the next few years.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:50 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Late edit, there are now few enough I can manually count my link, still 29 registered MD-90s, so this was down to 62 MD-80s registered.


WOW....so half the MD-88 fleet GONE in about a year's time :(


The Annual Report showed 74 mainline narrowbody purchase commitments for 2019. The company recently reaffirmed its plan for 4% annual domestic growth for the next few years.

One year ago DL had 148 MD-80+90 of which 50 were MD-90 so 98 MD-80.

In July of 2017 DL had 181 MD-80&90 and the full 62 MD-90 or 119 MD-80. So it is basically two years to cut the fleet in half. It feels faster.

DL has also upgauged. It is great pilots are commanding better wages, but that means finding a way to earn more profit. 739s rolled in to replace DL's MD-80s. A321s too.

Lightsaber
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coairman
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:11 am

I am glad they are retiring, as I can hear a DL MD-80 as it takes off 4000 feet above our home enroute to ATL. It’s the loudest commercial aircraft in the sky as it roars above with such obnoxious noise pollution. It’s louder than 777, A380 and other wide bodies and when it takes off late because of a delay it wakes me up........I am looking forward to not hearing that roaring plane again..
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:58 am

lightsaber wrote:
In July of 2017 DL had 181 MD-80&90 and the full 62 MD-90 or 119 MD-80. So it is basically two years to cut the fleet in half. It feels faster.


The Annual Report for 2016 (published Feb. '17) showed 116 MD-88s (23 on capital lease) and 65 MD-90s (all owned) as of 12/31/16. I'll argue those were the 'final' static active fleet numbers by type. 12/31/15 had the same count. But, yes, a total of 181. They are exiting fast. I do wonder if we'll see a plateau in retirements as Summer 2020 flying approaches - and then another September burst.

http://www.annualreports.com/HostedData ... L_2016.pdf
 
FLLspotter747
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:23 pm

I can't believe how fast they are going down, gonna miss seeing them here at DAB. They still blast out of here 5 times daily (1 -90 and 4 -88's).
 
tnair1974
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ATL-SAT, or ATL-SAN? I didn't know MD-88s had the legs for ATL-SAN.


According to old OAGs, AA flew their MD-80s BNA-SAN and BNA-LAX back in the day. Only a guess, but perhaps mainly with their MD-83s as they had more range than MD-82s.

While other airlines frequently used MD-80s into SAN, I don't know about Delta.

But DL MD-88s made occasional hops to LAX. This included using MD-88s ATL-LAX every long once in a while as old Airliners threads show; I'm unaware if westbound flights required any payload hits or not. This said, seems most DL MD-88 flights to LAX were from the old DFW hub (SLC had only infrequent overall DL MD-88 operations).
 
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fraspotter
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:

WOW....so half the MD-88 fleet GONE in about a year's time :(


The Annual Report showed 74 mainline narrowbody purchase commitments for 2019. The company recently reaffirmed its plan for 4% annual domestic growth for the next few years.

One year ago DL had 148 MD-80+90 of which 50 were MD-90 so 98 MD-80.

In July of 2017 DL had 181 MD-80&90 and the full 62 MD-90 or 119 MD-80. So it is basically two years to cut the fleet in half. It feels faster.

DL has also upgauged. It is great pilots are commanding better wages, but that means finding a way to earn more profit. 739s rolled in to replace DL's MD-80s. A321s too.

Lightsaber


Any idea how many MD80/90 (combined) were in the DL fleet at their highest and when that was? For AA IINM I remember it was sometime in the early 2000s and their MD80 fleet totaled some 350+ at it's peak but not sure of a more specific date. If anyone knows...
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chotiwala
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:36 pm

I was searching DL flights from SAT to ATL for 12/30, and one of the options is on an MD-90, so looks like they'll have some until then at least.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:14 pm

fraspotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

The Annual Report showed 74 mainline narrowbody purchase commitments for 2019. The company recently reaffirmed its plan for 4% annual domestic growth for the next few years.

One year ago DL had 148 MD-80+90 of which 50 were MD-90 so 98 MD-80.

In July of 2017 DL had 181 MD-80&90 and the full 62 MD-90 or 119 MD-80. So it is basically two years to cut the fleet in half. It feels faster.

DL has also upgauged. It is great pilots are commanding better wages, but that means finding a way to earn more profit. 739s rolled in to replace DL's MD-80s. A321s too.

Lightsaber


Any idea how many MD80/90 (combined) were in the DL fleet at their highest and when that was? For AA IINM I remember it was sometime in the early 2000s and their MD80 fleet totaled some 350+ at it's peak but not sure of a more specific date. If anyone knows...


Annual reports for 2012/13/14/15 show a peak of 117 MD-88s and 65 MD-90s for 12/31/13 and '14. Some time in 2015 they discontinued an MD-88. Again, annual reports.

https://ir.delta.com/financials/default.aspx#sec
 
spud757
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:17 pm

Being from the U.K., MD80-90 flights are as rare as hen’s teeth so I’m actually (really) excited about taking my first flights on these DL birds in December ATL-MEM / MSY-ATL, to connect with my VS ex-MAN itinerary.

In a world where my local airports (MAN/LBA/DSA/EMA) are dominated by the 737 and A320 variants for short haul flying, it’s exciting as an aviation enthusiast to finally take a trip on these birds. Looking forward to that engine noise. However, my favourite bird is still the BAe 146 Avro RJ, which are rarer still these days since SN and LX retired them from their euro regional fleets.
 
RobertS975
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:20 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ATL-SAT, or ATL-SAN? I didn't know MD-88s had the legs for ATL-SAN.


But DL MD-88s made occasional hops to LAX. This included using MD-88s ATL-LAX every long once in a while as old Airliners threads show; I'm unaware if westbound flights required any payload hits or not. This said, seems most DL MD-88 flights to LAX were from the old DFW hub (SLC had only infrequent overall DL MD-88 operations).


The MD-88 fleet was essentially never used out of SLC for operational performance issues having to do with single engine climb gradients being unable to meet MCAs (minimum crossing altitude) on various instrument routings out of SLC. In plain language, the airplane could not climb rapidly enough at takeoff weights on a single engine to clear the terrain when on instrument conditions, therefore being unable to visually avoid terrain.

I assume that this was a disqualifying issue, because DL would have clearly used their huge fleet of MD-88s ex-SLC if it could.
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:34 pm

I always wanted to hop on an ATL-LAX MD-88, it was even on days with the 764 in the schedule. The fleet started to reach it's peak when Richard gave the go-ahead to get second MD-90s from almost anyone selling.

Delta's up-gauge strategy is quite brilliant, especially with the MAX woes at competitors. Flights that were MD88-90 or even A319 get up gauged to 739 or A321. Flights that still need lower capacity they just move the A319/A320s around the network.
 
United857
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
fraspotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
One year ago DL had 148 MD-80+90 of which 50 were MD-90 so 98 MD-80.

In July of 2017 DL had 181 MD-80&90 and the full 62 MD-90 or 119 MD-80. So it is basically two years to cut the fleet in half. It feels faster.

DL has also upgauged. It is great pilots are commanding better wages, but that means finding a way to earn more profit. 739s rolled in to replace DL's MD-80s. A321s too.

Lightsaber


Any idea how many MD80/90 (combined) were in the DL fleet at their highest and when that was? For AA IINM I remember it was sometime in the early 2000s and their MD80 fleet totaled some 350+ at it's peak but not sure of a more specific date. If anyone knows...


Annual reports for 2012/13/14/15 show a peak of 117 MD-88s and 65 MD-90s for 12/31/13 and '14. Some time in 2015 they discontinued an MD-88. Again, annual reports.

https://ir.delta.com/financials/default.aspx#sec

The 2015 decrease from 117 to 116 was for DL1086 at LGA during a snowstorm. That one was a write off.
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Pontius
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:56 pm

coairman wrote:
I am glad they are retiring, as I can hear a DL MD-80 as it takes off 4000 feet above our home enroute to ATL. It’s the loudest commercial aircraft in the sky as it roars above with such obnoxious noise pollution. It’s louder than 777, A380 and other wide bodies and when it takes off late because of a delay it wakes me up........I am looking forward to not hearing that roaring plane again..


Pagan.
 
flyboy80
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:22 am

When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:38 am

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Currently, used A319s are sold at scrap value. Bid $1 more than the scrapyard and it is yours. 737NG values were spiked by WN's 733 retirement and then the MAX.


That's an odd situation given the MAX groundings at AA and UA and their use of the type (plus by DL/AS/F9/G4/NK and many others). Are the operating economics of 319s really that bad?

The opperating economics of the A320 are that much better. PiPs always favor the economics of larger variants. One reason the MD-80 is being retired is there is absolutely no maintenance cost advantage on the engines between the A319 and A320 with the latest PiPs. Once upon a time the A319 engine lasted 20,000 cycles, the A320 16,000, and the A321 about 9,000. Since the overhaul was about $2.5 million for each engine,
a319 was $250 of engine overhaul or total $386 per takeoff in engine maintenance.
A320 was $446 per takeoff, plus more fuel burn
The A321 had such a high engine maintenance bill, it didn't sell well

With engine PiPs and Sharklets, they gave the same engine maintenance bill and almost the same fuel bill.

WN likes the 73G, and it has an appropriately sized wing instead of a simple shrink. All simple shrinks suffer in resale value. It saves tens of thousands of engineering hours, but the excessive weight and aerodynamic drag creates poor economics. In particular since many A319 were sold for range met with the A320 with Sharklets and engine PiPs. Then the A320 has lower cost per flight than the A319.

If you need to save cost per flight, power by the hour, training centers, and Leasing make it far cheaper to have a sub-fleet of E190s, E2s, A220s, and soon MRJs than A319s. There is a reason I beat the drum on Airbus increasing A321NEO production; after the first major engine PiP +example, CMCs) demand, including resale, will upgauge.

So there is no hope of a MD-80 revival. Thanks to Leasing, you even have Volotea replacing 717 with used A319s. Cebu Pacific dumped A319s back to Leasing companies in 2017/2018. EasyJet, the largest opperator of the A319, is returning them to leasors quickly. Those A319s are finding the homes we ascribe to MD-80s.

Note, used MD-80s go for under a million;. SL bought dozens for $300k. Used A319s are worth above $8.5 million. Heck, used engines are worth $2.5 million+ each. The problem for the MD-80 is it is worth what DL thinks the engines are worth for 6 to 9 months of opperations. The used A319 is worth what dozens of airlines think the engines and parts are worth (which is a lot).

Let's put it another way, the MD-80 burns 25% more fuel than a 738 (slightly more than an A320), has less range, higher per cycle maintenance costs, no predictive maintenance to warn of a malfunction prior to stranded passengers, and far less range.

With A319s so cheap, payoff in under 3 years, do you really wonder why the MD-80 is fading.

I should have mentioned AA looked at used A319s to replace MD-80s. Airbus made a killer offer on new A319s that ensures AA bought new, creating a surplus of A319s.

So not horrible economics, just very little in savings. Why fly an A319 with 156 vs. A320 with 186 (ULCC config, who buys dirt cheap) when the cost per flight difference is almost down to the purchase price decision?

Lightsaber


Thank you for breaking this down.

I read one of the earlier posts and was really confused because I was positive that JetBlue was got the v2500 in 2001 with their A320 order...

This helps clear up a little bit more the economics of the engines and costs.
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tnair1974
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:57 am

RobertS975 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ATL-SAT, or ATL-SAN? I didn't know MD-88s had the legs for ATL-SAN.


But DL MD-88s made occasional hops to LAX. This included using MD-88s ATL-LAX every long once in a while as old Airliners threads show; I'm unaware if westbound flights required any payload hits or not. This said, seems most DL MD-88 flights to LAX were from the old DFW hub (SLC had only infrequent overall DL MD-88 operations).


The MD-88 fleet was essentially never used out of SLC for operational performance issues having to do with single engine climb gradients being unable to meet MCAs (minimum crossing altitude) on various instrument routings out of SLC. In plain language, the airplane could not climb rapidly enough at takeoff weights on a single engine to clear the terrain when on instrument conditions, therefore being unable to visually avoid terrain.

I assume that this was a disqualifying issue, because DL would have clearly used their huge fleet of MD-88s ex-SLC if it could.


Years ago, a Delta pilot told an uncle of mine (a private pilot) that the DL MD-88 single engine performance matters at SLC were mainly a summer issue, especially for longer flights. So a short SLC-BOI hop in January would apparently be no problem and just maybe not even in July. Going SLC-ATL/DTW via DL MD-88 on a 105 Fahrenheit / 40 Celsius day in the Salt Lake Valley......I don't think so. Hence DL relying much more on the likes of 737s and MD-90s rather than MD-88s at SLC. As it is, SLC is virtually surrounded by high terrain. This compares to DEN which has the Rockies only on the west side.

Still, Delta would infrequently use MD-88s at SLC during the winter. I wish I could say I have the source, but I recall reading DL MD-88s flew SLC-MSP/DFW/BOI among a few other cities during the 2000s (maybe DEN and LAX?). These of course are relatively short flights.

Other airlines used their MD-80s into SLC including AA, TW and even NW's small MD-80 fleet inherited from the Republic merger. Does anybody know if DL's MD-88s have lower thrust engines compared to other MD-80s? Even MD-88s of other carriers such as AeroMexico which operated at high altitude airports?
 
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2nd2none
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:56 am

Down to : 60 + 29 = 89 at Planespotters
 
UGA777
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:47 am

Yes, you are correct. There are currently 60 active 88s and 29 90s. The 88s are supposed to drop to 44 by the end of 2019. There are still 4 more A321s to be delivered this year and a few A220-100s.
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:39 am

2nd2none wrote:
Down to : 60 + 29 = 89 at Planespotters

Interesting. Airfleets still shows 91 or 62+29 registered. As I noted before, there is a time lag at airfleets.

I'm curious how many fly 1/1/2020 and later. Sadly I expect an end of the year retirement rush of all without ADS-B. I know some were converted, I have no clue how many MD-90 (I see above 44 MD-80). This isn't the 737 or A320 where multiple vendors sell kits to comply.

So at least 16 more retirements + MD-90s.

Lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:33 pm

I was looking on airfleets for the two DL MD-80s retired. I found one. I also found another dozen were retired. Now only 198 MD-80s registered (active) plus DL's 29 MD-90s.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

Lightsaber
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Phosphorus
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:51 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I was looking on airfleets for the two DL MD-80s retired. I found one. I also found another dozen were retired. Now only 198 MD-80s registered (active) plus DL's 29 MD-90s.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

Lightsaber


Yes. looks like airfleets found time to look into it, and cleared the books off the planes they no longer believe are flying.
To think of it -- even if all other operators hold on to their MD-80s till Delta retires theirs -- there'll be less than 150 frames active, worldwide...

And in the meantime, have I missed it, or is old news -- that Far Easter Air transport has put its entire MD-80 fleet on sale:
https://www.fat.com.tw/web/en/md-on-sales

Appears to be everything -- lock, stock and barrel -- is for sale in a single go.
I wonder, if a buyer emerges.
I also wonder, what happens if no buyer emerges.
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2nd2none
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:50 am

Delta: Down to : 58 + 29 = 87 at Planespotters
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:03 pm

2nd2none
I don't doubt your numbers, I like airfleets as it goes off registrations. If a plane is taken off there, I doubt it will be an undead zombie temporarily returning to service.

I have no doubt DL is reducing the pool if MD-80/90 for operations, on an almost weekly basis.
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Bingo1
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:20 pm

In a previous post someone referenced the cabin noise when sitting at the back of these MD-80's and I'm wondering how they compared with cabin noise of the DC-9's. I've sat in the back, including the rear windowless row, on those DC-9's bit never experienced it the MD-80.
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:24 pm

I wouldn't call MD-88s quiet in the last four rows. DC-9s were a lot noisier. I don't recall a back-to-back MD-88 to MD-90 comparison. Most of my 717 rides have been happily up front. :)
 
harleydriver
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:39 am

Airlines like World Atlantic, I wonder what the future plans are with their MD-80's?
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DeltaRules
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:00 am

Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:12 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?


I highly doubt it. Between the maintenance supply chain drying up, and the cost of keeping a dedicated pilot group for low utilisation charter flying, it would not make economic sense.

If they were considering a dedicated charter sub-fleet then the early build A320s would be their best option. Common parts with the remainder of the fleet, no need for separate crew bids. Low utilisation means cycles wouldn't be a concern.
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747DREAM
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:16 am

Do any know what route or have an route list that DL MD still fly to? Trying to catch something for my birthday that’s about to come up for fun, before they are all gone. Trying to find the cheapest one, without breaking the bank. Sorry if I am on the wrong post.
Last edited by 747DREAM on Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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