lightsaber wrote:

cessna2 wrote:

Looks like all MD88's will be gone by 2020 and then only 16 MD90's will operate in the fleet for 2021-2022 will all retired by end of 2022! Gonna miss the T-tails but at least we'll have a few years to hitch a ride.

What is this based upon? As some MD-88s have ADS-B, I assume you mean all MD-88s will be retired prior to YE 2020? Likely; I would like to know the c-check history/due dates.

As to MD-90s gone by YE 2022? That makes sense. I expect none are now going through HMV and few through a regular c-check even.

Lightsaber

Thomas32125 wrote:

I am planning a trip to ATL for next summer, does anyone have the routes for the MD90 from and to ATL as I would love to get it onto my list and it will most probably be my last chance..

Dalmd88 wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.
[snip]

tnair1974 wrote:

Dalmd88 wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.
[snip]

It indeed seems logical that regularly scheduled MD-88 flights would be restricted to areas closer to ATL due to limitations of the FMS.

This said, DL MD-88s recently did military/sports charters out west to destinations such as RIV, SLC, SEA, PDX. Presuming there is normally a quarantine keeping MD-88s closer to ATL, how were the recent MD-88 flights to the western US done? Would extensive reprogramming of the old FMS be needed? How pragmatic is it to quickly remove unneeded data from the old FMS to allow a database of western US waypoints/airports? Out west there of course would be no pressing need for the FMS to store data of, for example, the northeastern US (once back to ATL, the plane's FMS could be returned to normal status).

Polot wrote:

tnair1974 wrote:

Dalmd88 wrote:

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.
[snip]

It indeed seems logical that regularly scheduled MD-88 flights would be restricted to areas closer to ATL due to limitations of the FMS.

This said, DL MD-88s recently did military/sports charters out west to destinations such as RIV, SLC, SEA, PDX. Presuming there is normally a quarantine keeping MD-88s closer to ATL, how were the recent MD-88 flights to the western US done? Would extensive reprogramming of the old FMS be needed? How pragmatic is it to quickly remove unneeded data from the old FMS to allow a database of western US waypoints/airports? Out west there of course would be no pressing need for the FMS to store data of, for example, the northeastern US (once back to ATL, the plane's FMS could be returned to normal status).

The FMS is only partially why the fleet is being restricted to the ATL area. Another reason is that ATL has a ton of short out and back flights (think of all the ATL-Southeast cities DL mainline flies) where the MD88’s fuel burn is less of an issue and where frequencies vary depending on day of week and season (lower/less ideal utilization less of an issue with the old paid off frames). Enough to keep the decent sized fleet in use.

danipawa wrote:

MD Douglas MD88 49538 1365 N907DL Delta Air Lines ferried 03dec19 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap (+ 49980/1712 N961DL)
MD Douglas MD88 49981 1725 N926DL Delta Air Lines ferried 03dec19 ATL-BHM, for part-out & scrap

source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

Phosphorus wrote:

It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?

lightsaber wrote:

Phosphorus wrote:

It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?

All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber

Phosphorus wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Phosphorus wrote:

It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?

All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber

Thanks. My thinking about second-hand placements is about non-US markets, used to fix MD-80's with presumably very few resources. Venezuela and Iran come to mind. Also Bulgaria has a dozen or so of MD-80's flying. With old equipment and cannibalization, it's often very useful to have plenty of spares at your disposal nearby, than already harvested components in third-party warehouse, on the other side of the planet (talking with personal experience, though in non-airplane environment).

Also, Everts Air Cargo is poised to be in MD-80 game for some time. Would it make sense for them to add a few MD-80 frames more, as their DC-6 fleet is not getting any younger?

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

It would be interested to see what DL would've done had they been a MAX operator, but if the were in the situation others are facing there likely would've extended the longevity of the MD-88 and particularly MD-90 frames a bit longer.

Polot wrote:

...
The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.

Polot wrote:

Phosphorus wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber

Thanks. My thinking about second-hand placements is about non-US markets, used to fix MD-80's with presumably very few resources. Venezuela and Iran come to mind. Also Bulgaria has a dozen or so of MD-80's flying. With old equipment and cannibalization, it's often very useful to have plenty of spares at your disposal nearby, than already harvested components in third-party warehouse, on the other side of the planet (talking with personal experience, though in non-airplane environment).

Also, Everts Air Cargo is poised to be in MD-80 game for some time. Would it make sense for them to add a few MD-80 frames more, as their DC-6 fleet is not getting any younger?

The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.

Phosphorus wrote:

Polot wrote:

...
The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.

Well, operators in Iran are not exactly facing an excess of options. Or they would be already scrapping their MD-80's and buying A32X and 737NG in dozens. But they are not, and this tells us something about their predicament.

Also, Everts is presumably mainly operating in Alaska, and that means gravel airstrips in some locations. Not exactly A32X and 737NG territory. So they MUST have a plan, how to fly these birds for some time. They've deployed some capital into frames and simulators -- not something to do, if you expect to retire the fleet shortly.

PacoMartin wrote:

Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.

lightsaber wrote:

PacoMartin wrote:

Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.

The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber

FLALEFTY wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

PacoMartin wrote:

Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.

The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber

I was just browsing through today's ATL traffic on Flight Aware and was astonished at how much lift the M88/90 fleet still provides for Delta. It will be interesting to see if Airbus can deliver enough A220's and A321's in the next couple of years to keep Delta from having some service gaps while they quickly draw down the MD fleets. Will Delta possibly shop the used A319 market to get some stop gap lift?

lightsaber wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber

I was just browsing through today's ATL traffic on Flight Aware and was astonished at how much lift the M88/90 fleet still provides for Delta. It will be interesting to see if Airbus can deliver enough A220's and A321's in the next couple of years to keep Delta from having some service gaps while they quickly draw down the MD fleets. Will Delta possibly shop the used A319 market to get some stop gap lift?

You mean like AA and UA?
Link UA: https://www.avgeekery.com/blocking-tack ... rbus-jets/

AA planning (I do not know if firmed):
https://simpleflying.com/american-airli ... -purchase/

But DL seems ok with:
A220-100, 17 more on order
A220-300, 50 on order
A321CEO, 32 more on order
A321NEO, 100 on order

Due to the lower utilization of the MD-88/90 fleet, DL will do fine.

They could also buy used 737NG, but for now A319CEO or A320CEO seem to be a better bargain.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

But DL seems ok with:
A220-100, 17 more on order
A220-300, 50 on order
A321CEO, 32 more on order
A321NEO, 100 on order

SELMER40 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

1799 DFW-LGA-DFW is an A220 per delta.com that appears to be a flightaware glitch. It’s a regular scheduled revenue flight.

8947 is a charter, and DL has been using the MD88s for NCAA sports charters, typically basketball and hockey.


8

Flightradar24 shows N958DL southbound and northbound.

tnair1974 wrote:

Thomas32125 wrote:

I am planning a trip to ATL for next summer, does anyone have the routes for the MD90 from and to ATL as I would love to get it onto my list and it will most probably be my last chance..

This was covered several weeks ago with lots of cities mentioned. You can go back to post # 140 and work forward. Needless to say as the fleet draws down, more cities lose Mad Dogs and this can change relatively quickly. For example, EWR had lots of MD-88s/90s until recently but they are virtually gone now.

I also have yet to fly on an MD-90. Not long ago, I booked an MD-90 ATL-SAT but it was switched to a 738 as the 90 apparently had gone tech. I will try again early next year.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Maybe. Looking at a few dates in January, ELP and PWM are now all MD-90s.

Northwest1988 wrote:

So over the course of the next year, what do we speculate some of the last -88 routes will be? Do you think they will stay pretty close to ATL on routes like to GSP, CHS, AGS, PNS and ECP? Or will there be some longer routes hang on like OKC and YYZ?