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SteelChair
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Would love to see a three year chart of net promoter scores superimposed on the number of MD88s in the fleet. My guess is that there is a direct correlation as more MD88s leave, NPS keeps going up. Reliability counts.


What's your evidence that the MD-88s have been less reliable than the mainline fleet as a whole? Why do you think reliability is a big driver of NPS?


Fyi I never answered your questions because of the other two comprehensive replies.
 
butwhole
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:19 pm

car4041 wrote:
I'm a Canadian aviation fan who's never flown on MD metal, so what better to do on my midterm break next month than pop down and fly on a bunch of MD88s/MD90s while that's still possible. Fortunately I am able to fly standby on DL. I don't know much about DL's network so I was hoping people could suggest some routes that are (1) highly likely to be operated by M88/M90 and (2) decent for standby travel, i.e. fairly frequent and not chronically overloaded. My dates are Feb 15-23(ish) and my first leg will be YYZ-ATL. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks!


Coincidentally I am also flying to ATL tmrw for purely the same reason. Will be MD90 up and MD88 back from JAX -- seems we still get some flights here...Not a bad option as its relatively seasonable temps here.

DL2849, will be excited to see what t-tail numbers we get.
 
tnair1974
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:04 am

tnair1974 wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:

But DL MD-88s made occasional hops to LAX. This included using MD-88s ATL-LAX every long once in a while as old Airliners threads show; I'm unaware if westbound flights required any payload hits or not. This said, seems most DL MD-88 flights to LAX were from the old DFW hub (SLC had only infrequent overall DL MD-88 operations).


The MD-88 fleet was essentially never used out of SLC for operational performance issues having to do with single engine climb gradients being unable to meet MCAs (minimum crossing altitude) on various instrument routings out of SLC. In plain language, the airplane could not climb rapidly enough at takeoff weights on a single engine to clear the terrain when on instrument conditions, therefore being unable to visually avoid terrain.

I assume that this was a disqualifying issue, because DL would have clearly used their huge fleet of MD-88s ex-SLC if it could.


Years ago, a Delta pilot told an uncle of mine (a private pilot) that the DL MD-88 single engine performance matters at SLC were mainly a summer issue, especially for longer flights. So a short SLC-BOI hop in January would apparently be no problem and just maybe not even in July. But going SLC-ATL/DTW via DL MD-88 on a 105 Fahrenheit / 40 Celsius day in the Salt Lake Valley?......I don't think so. :shakehead: Hence DL relying much more on the likes of 737s and MD-90s rather than MD-88s at SLC. As it is, SLC is virtually surrounded by high terrain. This compares to DEN which has the Rockies only on the west side.

Still, Delta would infrequently use MD-88s at SLC during the winter. I wish I could say I have the source, but I recall reading DL MD-88s flew SLC-MSP/DFW/BOI among a few other cities during the 2000s (maybe DEN and LAX?). These of course are relatively short flights.

Other airlines used their MD-80s into SLC including AA, TW and even NW's small MD-80 fleet inherited from the Republic merger. Does anybody know if DL's MD-88s have lower thrust engines compared to other MD-80s? Even MD-88s of other carriers such as AeroMexico which operated at high altitude airports?

As DL MD-88s continue into their twilight, I managed to stumble across an unusual find....photographic evidence of a Delta MD-88 at SLC.
https://www.planespotters.net/photo/037 ... glas-md-88

About a decade ago, I recall seeing a somewhat grainy internet pic of a DL MD-88 at a gate at SLC. The somewhat poor quality of the pic probably meant it would not have been acceptable in the Airliners photo section.

BTW, my earlier question about DL MD-88 engines was answered elsewhere; Delta's MD-88s have the JT8D-219 engines (21,000 lbs / 9341 kilograms thrust) which are the more powerful version of the JT8D-200 series turbofan. In comparison, AA bought new MD-82s and new MD-83s which were split between the JT8D-219s and the lower thrust JT8D-217s.
 
Northwest1988
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:14 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:

The MD-88 fleet was essentially never used out of SLC for operational performance issues having to do with single engine climb gradients being unable to meet MCAs (minimum crossing altitude) on various instrument routings out of SLC. In plain language, the airplane could not climb rapidly enough at takeoff weights on a single engine to clear the terrain when on instrument conditions, therefore being unable to visually avoid terrain.

I assume that this was a disqualifying issue, because DL would have clearly used their huge fleet of MD-88s ex-SLC if it could.


Years ago, a Delta pilot told an uncle of mine (a private pilot) that the DL MD-88 single engine performance matters at SLC were mainly a summer issue, especially for longer flights. So a short SLC-BOI hop in January would apparently be no problem and just maybe not even in July. But going SLC-ATL/DTW via DL MD-88 on a 105 Fahrenheit / 40 Celsius day in the Salt Lake Valley?......I don't think so. :shakehead: Hence DL relying much more on the likes of 737s and MD-90s rather than MD-88s at SLC. As it is, SLC is virtually surrounded by high terrain. This compares to DEN which has the Rockies only on the west side.

Still, Delta would infrequently use MD-88s at SLC during the winter. I wish I could say I have the source, but I recall reading DL MD-88s flew SLC-MSP/DFW/BOI among a few other cities during the 2000s (maybe DEN and LAX?). These of course are relatively short flights.

Other airlines used their MD-80s into SLC including AA, TW and even NW's small MD-80 fleet inherited from the Republic merger. Does anybody know if DL's MD-88s have lower thrust engines compared to other MD-80s? Even MD-88s of other carriers such as AeroMexico which operated at high altitude airports?

As DL MD-88s continue into their twilight, I managed to stumble across an unusual find....photographic evidence of a Delta MD-88 at SLC.
https://www.planespotters.net/photo/037 ... glas-md-88

About a decade ago, I recall seeing a somewhat grainy internet pic of a DL MD-88 at a gate at SLC. The somewhat poor quality of the pic probably meant it would not have been acceptable in the Airliners photo section.

BTW, my earlier question about DL MD-88 engines was answered elsewhere; Delta's MD-88s have the JT8D-219 engines (21,000 lbs / 9341 kilograms thrust) which are the more powerful version of the JT8D-200 series turbofan. In comparison, AA bought new MD-82s and new MD-83s which were split between the JT8D-219s and the lower thrust JT8D-217s.


Great find! I remember reading an article that said there were a few occasions during the summer where the -88s performance was acceptable at SLC.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3139
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:40 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:


BTW, my earlier question about DL MD-88 engines was answered elsewhere; Delta's MD-88s have the JT8D-219 engines (21,000 lbs / 9341 kilograms thrust) which are the more powerful version of the JT8D-200 series turbofan. In comparison, AA bought new MD-82s and new MD-83s which were split between the JT8D-219s and the lower thrust JT8D-217s.

There differences between the -217 and the -219 are slight. For the last couple of years in the DL engine shop we were inducting used AA engines sending them through the overhaul process and doing the conversion. I think it came down to how bleed air was extracted and a fuel control change.
 
SELMER40
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:17 pm

The n515cr 31 Jan 2020 report shows Active MD-88s : 48.
Where does Delta get 48 airplanes in 11 months to replace them?
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8048
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:32 pm

In 2020 DL is taking delivery of at least 80 aircraft including A220, A321CEO, A321NEO, A339, and A350. More than sufficient deliveries to replace the MD88 capacity coming out of the system in 2020.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:44 pm

SELMER40 wrote:
The n515cr 31 Jan 2020 report shows Active MD-88s : 48.
Where does Delta get 48 airplanes in 11 months to replace them?


Building on PSU.DTW.SCE's answer, expected delveries for 2020 (and 2021, 2022, and beyond) will be shown in the annual report, probably out in less than two weeks. I'm not sure the commitments shown from 2/2019 will hold up -- I'm confident the expected 321neo count will be lower for 2020, for example.

Open a link or PDF to the annual report and search for 'purchase commitments'.

Look at Delta's receipts of 220s, 739s and 321ceos last year. I count 72 from planespotters.net.
 
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BN727227Ultra
Posts: 694
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:01 pm

SELMER40 wrote:
The n515cr 31 Jan 2020 report shows Active MD-88s : 48.
Where does Delta get 48 airplanes in 11 months to replace them?


With the coronavirus deal, they'll just replace MD-88s with 777, 330 and 350. Bet the farm. Looking forward to new equipment on ATL-MCI/OMA/STL! :-)
 
flflyer
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 2:29 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:16 pm

Feel fortunate that I just rode one r/t ATL-ICH- always a favorite.
 
tnair1974
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:07 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:

Years ago, a Delta pilot told an uncle of mine (a private pilot) that the DL MD-88 single engine performance matters at SLC were mainly a summer issue, especially for longer flights. So a short SLC-BOI hop in January would apparently be no problem and just maybe not even in July. But going SLC-ATL/DTW via DL MD-88 on a 105 Fahrenheit / 40 Celsius day in the Salt Lake Valley?......I don't think so. :shakehead: Hence DL relying much more on the likes of 737s and MD-90s rather than MD-88s at SLC. As it is, SLC is virtually surrounded by high terrain. This compares to DEN which has the Rockies only on the west side.

Still, Delta would infrequently use MD-88s at SLC during the winter. I wish I could say I have the source, but I recall reading DL MD-88s flew SLC-MSP/DFW/BOI among a few other cities during the 2000s (maybe DEN and LAX?). These of course are relatively short flights.

Other airlines used their MD-80s into SLC including AA, TW and even NW's small MD-80 fleet inherited from the Republic merger. Does anybody know if DL's MD-88s have lower thrust engines compared to other MD-80s? Even MD-88s of other carriers such as AeroMexico which operated at high altitude airports?

As DL MD-88s continue into their twilight, I managed to stumble across an unusual find....photographic evidence of a Delta MD-88 at SLC.
https://www.planespotters.net/photo/037 ... glas-md-88

About a decade ago, I recall seeing a somewhat grainy internet pic of a DL MD-88 at a gate at SLC. The somewhat poor quality of the pic probably meant it would not have been acceptable in the Airliners photo section.

BTW, my earlier question about DL MD-88 engines was answered elsewhere; Delta's MD-88s have the JT8D-219 engines (21,000 lbs / 9341 kilograms thrust) which are the more powerful version of the JT8D-200 series turbofan. In comparison, AA bought new MD-82s and new MD-83s which were split between the JT8D-219s and the lower thrust JT8D-217s.


Great find! I remember reading an article that said there were a few occasions during the summer where the -88s performance was acceptable at SLC.

I read that AA used MD-80s SLC-ORD/DFW year round. I wonder if even these flights needed at least some seat/payload penalties during the hottest days at SLC.

BTW, add Continental Airlines to the list of MD-80 operators at SLC (apparently on SLC-IAH, looked like SLC-EWR was mainly 735s).

Of course, the old Western Airlines established SLC as a hub before the DL/WA merger. To be sure, Western was a heavily Boeing customer with a big exception of the DC-10. This said, curious if what interest WA may have had in MD-80s was tempered by the single engine performance issues at SLC. IIRC, the 737-400 also did not have the greatest thrust to weight ratio stats; just maybe why Western also did not buy the 734 to supplement their 733s and 732s??
 
hsaviation
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:30 pm

I'm presuming that DL is scheduling the retirement of some -88s for the 31st August 2020? Having a quick look at ATL-MEM shows almost all -88 on 31/8 but all B738 on 1/9, which also coincides with the dates as to when some of the -88s certificates are up, namely N904DE & N905DE:

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquir ... rtxt=904de

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquir ... rtxt=905de

Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:30 pm

More than certs expiring, early September points to the end of summer flying. There's usually a significant drawdown of capacity. MD-88s will be dropping like flies.
 
hsaviation
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:44 pm

does anyone have any idea as to what N915DE is doing in QRO?
 
Nordfisch
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:41 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:58 pm

hsaviation wrote:
does anyone have any idea as to what N915DE is doing in QRO?


QRO has a rather large Maintenance Facility. Not only N915DE is there, N838NW (B753) and N803NW (A333) arrived the same day.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8975
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:04 am

hsaviation wrote:
does anyone have any idea as to what N915DE is doing in QRO?


They do a lot of the checks on the T-tails. Used to be a joint venture of DL and Aeromexico.
 
hsaviation
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:25 pm

Ah ok, thanks!
 
dstblj52
Posts: 455
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:03 am

hsaviation wrote:
Ah ok, thanks!

Delta and Aeromexico have an arrangement where delta work on Aeromexico engines leveraging there decades of experience and investment in that expertise while Aeromexico does frame work and maybe cabin refurbishments for delta leveraging their lower labor costs. I'm not sure how its account for in terms of costs and how much if any money changes hands but thats the basic crux of the arrangement.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:42 am

Do we have a schedule for the next md80 to be retired to SBD?
 
n515cr
Posts: 1789
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:17 pm

MDGLongBeach wrote:
Do we have a schedule for the next md80 to be retired to SBD?

Last I heard was that the next '88 to retired will go in April.
 
car4041
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:12 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:45 pm

car4041 wrote:
I'm a Canadian aviation fan who's never flown on MD metal, so what better to do on my midterm break next month than pop down and fly on a bunch of MD88s/MD90s while that's still possible. Fortunately I am able to fly standby on DL. I don't know much about DL's network so I was hoping people could suggest some routes that are (1) highly likely to be operated by M88/M90 and (2) decent for standby travel, i.e. fairly frequent and not chronically overloaded. My dates are Feb 15-23(ish) and my first leg will be YYZ-ATL. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks!


Gillbilly wrote:
Stop at BDL on your way back home. It has MD88 and or MD90 service from ATL.


indcd wrote:
DL flies the 88 to IAD 3x/day. Midweek is almost always open and easy to nonrev. Comfort+ is likely. Enjoy the plane - my dad flew the 88 for years and was #3 in seniority in ATL back in the early 00’s. I’m always happy to be on the 88, unless it’s in the dead of summer and the packs aren’t functioning at full capacity. ;-)


SELMER40 wrote:
The ATL-MEM-ATL market is -NOT- good for non-rev travel.


jethawk wrote:
ATL-DSM would be a solid ride. Will go to the 738 in the Fall.


Thanks all for the suggestions! I ended up flying YYZ-ATL-IAH-ATL-CHS-ATL-YYZ. Four 88s and two 90s.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8975
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:31 pm

Awesome! You should post a trip report in the appropriate forum!! Big diff in performance between the -88 and -90, no?
 
SELMER40
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:33 pm

hsaviation wrote:
I'm presuming that DL is scheduling the retirement of some -88s for the 31st August 2020? Having a quick look at ATL-MEM shows almost all -88 on 31/8 but all B738 on 1/9

The OAG this week has moved the change over schedule MEM-ATL to October 1 (subject to change any week). They are showing 4 MD90 RON. 3 MD90 midday and 4 A321 midday.
The OAG is still showing (stcaw) BHM-ATL with 2 MD88 on Dec 31 and none on Jan 1. Will these be the last MD88 flights or just some of them? Will there be a system final tour sometime and where?
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
hsaviation
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:09 pm

SELMER40 wrote:
hsaviation wrote:
I'm presuming that DL is scheduling the retirement of some -88s for the 31st August 2020? Having a quick look at ATL-MEM shows almost all -88 on 31/8 but all B738 on 1/9

The OAG this week has moved the change over schedule MEM-ATL to October 1 (subject to change any week). They are showing 4 MD90 RON. 3 MD90 midday and 4 A321 midday.
The OAG is still showing (stcaw) BHM-ATL with 2 MD88 on Dec 31 and none on Jan 1. Will these be the last MD88 flights or just some of them? Will there be a system final tour sometime and where?


Thanks for the update!
I do believe that delta right now is scheduling the last -88 flights for Dec 31, although about 10 days ago they had -88s serving LIT until 8 Jan, which has since been changed to all -90s. Interestingly, they have -88s scheduled to fly and stay overnight in LIT, CHS and PNS on 31 Dec (DL1951, DL1607, DL2192, DL 2545 and DL1087), yet they don’t appear on the schedule for return on 1 Jan.
 
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Keith2004
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:42 pm

Looks like Corona virus may speed MD-88/90 retirements along

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-con ... -response/
 
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N776AU
Posts: 1007
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:18 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:51 pm

Keith2004 wrote:
Looks like Corona virus may speed MD-88/90 retirements along

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-con ... -response/

Even corona virus has a silver lining.
Careful, doors are closing, and will not reopen. Please wait for the next train.
 
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Keith2004
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:59 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:24 pm

N776AU wrote:
Keith2004 wrote:
Looks like Corona virus may speed MD-88/90 retirements along

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-con ... -response/

Even corona virus has a silver lining.


:lol: :lol:

And with plans to add seatback IFE to the 717s, in flight product will be more uniform.

MD nostalgia can live on in 717
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:02 pm

Keith2004 wrote:

And with plans to add seatback IFE to the 717s, in flight product will be more uniform.


More uniform, but not uniform. Av geeks may make the distinction between Delta and Delta Connection but typical passengers do not: they bought their ticket from Delta, the flight has a DL flight number. The fine print - operated by SkyWest, Endeavor, etc. - gets discounted or wholly ignored. Two-fifths of DL+DL Connection flights are operated by DL Connection carriers (although that's certainly not 2/5th the seats).

Link to that presentation: https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... h-2020.pdf
 
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Keith2004
Posts: 302
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Keith2004 wrote:

And with plans to add seatback IFE to the 717s, in flight product will be more uniform.


More uniform, but not uniform. Av geeks may make the distinction between Delta and Delta Connection but typical passengers do not: they bought their ticket from Delta, the flight has a DL flight number. The fine print - operated by SkyWest, Endeavor, etc. - gets discounted or wholly ignored. Two-fifths of DL+DL Connection flights are operated by DL Connection carriers (although that's certainly not 2/5th the seats).

Link to that presentation: https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... h-2020.pdf


Very true
Though I doubt regionals on any airline will ever have seatback IFE, so as close as any US3 could ever get.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:11 pm

Keith2004 wrote:
Looks like Corona virus may speed MD-88/90 retirements along

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-con ... -response/


TPG is notorious for sensationalizing quotes (often out of context) for clicks. Basically, DL was asked how it would respond to a downturn in air travel, and DL said 'well, it's too early to discuss that, but we feel we're covered, we have a bunch of older planes scheduled for retirement in the near future and we could accelerate the process, should it come to that.'

FWIW, there are active pilot rumors circulating that DL's having second thoughts about the cost of keeping the 717 around long-term, and is currently exploring the idea of phasing the jets out in the next few years, which would require keeping a number of MD-90 around longer than intended.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:38 pm

Honestly, in a way, I suspect they may actually park 717 and A319/A320s in the short-term if domestic collapses.
They could burn the cycles left on the MD88s that are going out end of this year anyways and defer maintenance on the others that were going to stick around.

This thing is getting stupider by the day. Companies are throwing up travel bans / restrictions right and left.
There will be very empty planes over the next few weeks.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:43 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
FWIW, there are active pilot rumors circulating that DL's having second thoughts about the cost of keeping the 717 around long-term, and is currently exploring the idea of phasing the jets out in the next few years, which would require keeping a number of MD-90 around longer than intended.


That's curious. Must have to do with the size of the aircraft v.the age of the 717, because I'd thought the 717 had better economics.

I'd just as soon that DL buy the next 150 A223s off the line and be done with the T-tails, but...(I want something different when flying OMA-ATL!)
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 265
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:10 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
That's curious. Must have to do with the size of the aircraft v.the age of the 717, because I'd thought the 717 had better economics.

I'd just as soon that DL buy the next 150 A223s off the line and be done with the T-tails, but...(I want something different when flying OMA-ATL!)


Allegedly, it has to do with fleet needs (the alternative role for the 717 as it's pulled from trunk routes; e.g. it's a poor fit on routes to small markets, particularly as mainline labor costs swell), expected maintenance costs, and the costs of upgrading/updating the aircraft (e.g. the cost to convert the aircraft to RNP-capable, the cost to replace the seats/update the cabin, etc.). Apparently, the ROI is being questioned.

I have no idea as to the credibility of this rumor, and I question the logistics and costs of DL being able to draw down nearly 100 aircraft in a short time period. That said, DL could probably replace the 717 fleet simply be deferring expected retirements, and adding minimal new orders. DL had previously said the 717 would be a flex fleet in the future, they could probably replace the entire fleet with about half the frames (or so).
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:48 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
That's curious. Must have to do with the size of the aircraft v.the age of the 717, because I'd thought the 717 had better economics.

I'd just as soon that DL buy the next 150 A223s off the line and be done with the T-tails, but...(I want something different when flying OMA-ATL!)


Allegedly, it has to do with fleet needs (the alternative role for the 717 as it's pulled from trunk routes; e.g. it's a poor fit on routes to small markets, particularly as mainline labor costs swell), expected maintenance costs, and the costs of upgrading/updating the aircraft (e.g. the cost to convert the aircraft to RNP-capable, the cost to replace the seats/update the cabin, etc.). Apparently, the ROI is being questioned.

I have no idea as to the credibility of this rumor, and I question the logistics and costs of DL being able to draw down nearly 100 aircraft in a short time period. That said, DL could probably replace the 717 fleet simply be deferring expected retirements, and adding minimal new orders. DL had previously said the 717 would be a flex fleet in the future, they could probably replace the entire fleet with about half the frames (or so).


I'd take that rumor with a grain of salt. Per DL's regional/pilot/scope clause, if they remove 100-seat jets then they also lose 76-seat jets as part of that agreement. I highly doubt that DL's going to be removing CR9s and E75s anytime soon.

Jeremy
 
C525C
Posts: 30
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:28 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
As DL MD-88s continue into their twilight, I managed to stumble across an unusual find....photographic evidence of a Delta MD-88 at SLC.
https://www.planespotters.net/photo/037 ... glas-md-88

About a decade ago, I recall seeing a somewhat grainy internet pic of a DL MD-88 at a gate at SLC. The somewhat poor quality of the pic probably meant it would not have been acceptable in the Airliners photo section.

BTW, my earlier question about DL MD-88 engines was answered elsewhere; Delta's MD-88s have the JT8D-219 engines (21,000 lbs / 9341 kilograms thrust) which are the more powerful version of the JT8D-200 series turbofan. In comparison, AA bought new MD-82s and new MD-83s which were split between the JT8D-219s and the lower thrust JT8D-217s.


Great find! I remember reading an article that said there were a few occasions during the summer where the -88s performance was acceptable at SLC.

I read that AA used MD-80s SLC-ORD/DFW year round. I wonder if even these flights needed at least some seat/payload penalties during the hottest days at SLC.

BTW, add Continental Airlines to the list of MD-80 operators at SLC (apparently on SLC-IAH, looked like SLC-EWR was mainly 735s).

Of course, the old Western Airlines established SLC as a hub before the DL/WA merger. To be sure, Western was a heavily Boeing customer with a big exception of the DC-10. This said, curious if what interest WA may have had in MD-80s was tempered by the single engine performance issues at SLC. IIRC, the 737-400 also did not have the greatest thrust to weight ratio stats; just maybe why Western also did not buy the 734 to supplement their 733s and 732s??
CO mainly did SLC-DEN and a plethora of SLC-SoCal/NoCal Charters on behalf of Morris Air. Didn't do SLC-IAH that I can recall (not saying it didn't, just never saw it operated with the MD). Frontier operated the MD SLC-DEN as well. AA did tag-on SLC-JAC for quite a while . TWA used them SLC-DEN-JFK and SLC-STL.

Allegro and AeroCancun also used them out of SLC. But my favorite was the short-lived PSA service from SLC-LAX in 1981-1982.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:41 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
That's curious. Must have to do with the size of the aircraft v.the age of the 717, because I'd thought the 717 had better economics.

I'd just as soon that DL buy the next 150 A223s off the line and be done with the T-tails, but...(I want something different when flying OMA-ATL!)


Allegedly, it has to do with fleet needs (the alternative role for the 717 as it's pulled from trunk routes; e.g. it's a poor fit on routes to small markets, particularly as mainline labor costs swell), expected maintenance costs, and the costs of upgrading/updating the aircraft (e.g. the cost to convert the aircraft to RNP-capable, the cost to replace the seats/update the cabin, etc.). Apparently, the ROI is being questioned.


I can see how it's argued that an MD-88 with time left in it before 1/1/21 is 'wasted,' but there's the question of fuel burn. If anything, I'd see MD-88s subbing for half-full 757s on short routes like DTW-MCO, ATL-MCO, etc. As for the 717s, this looks like a time for more planes with a lower trip cost, not fewer.
 
danipawa
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:48 pm

MD Douglas MD90-30 53391 2126 N911DA Delta Air Lines ferried 02mar20 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:55 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
That's curious. Must have to do with the size of the aircraft v.the age of the 717, because I'd thought the 717 had better economics.

I'd just as soon that DL buy the next 150 A223s off the line and be done with the T-tails, but...(I want something different when flying OMA-ATL!)


Allegedly, it has to do with fleet needs (the alternative role for the 717 as it's pulled from trunk routes; e.g. it's a poor fit on routes to small markets, particularly as mainline labor costs swell), expected maintenance costs, and the costs of upgrading/updating the aircraft (e.g. the cost to convert the aircraft to RNP-capable, the cost to replace the seats/update the cabin, etc.). Apparently, the ROI is being questioned.


I can see how it's argued that an MD-88 with time left in it before 1/1/21 is 'wasted,' but there's the question of fuel burn. If anything, I'd see MD-88s subbing for half-full 757s on short routes like DTW-MCO, ATL-MCO, etc. As for the 717s, this looks like a time for more planes with a lower trip cost, not fewer.


What is interesting is that DL 717's have been replacing the M88 on routes like ATL-DAB, ATL-MLB, ATL-VPS, ATL-GNV and ATL-TLH. And soon ATL-PNS and ATL-ECP may follow suit. DL could start moving those stations over to only regional jet service, but doing a full pull-down of the 717 fleet seems a bit ambitious.

I do think DL has plans to retire the 717's when their leases expire in the 2024-25 timeframe, but by then the A220 fleet should be up to critical mass.
 
gdavis003
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:02 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

Allegedly, it has to do with fleet needs (the alternative role for the 717 as it's pulled from trunk routes; e.g. it's a poor fit on routes to small markets, particularly as mainline labor costs swell), expected maintenance costs, and the costs of upgrading/updating the aircraft (e.g. the cost to convert the aircraft to RNP-capable, the cost to replace the seats/update the cabin, etc.). Apparently, the ROI is being questioned.


I can see how it's argued that an MD-88 with time left in it before 1/1/21 is 'wasted,' but there's the question of fuel burn. If anything, I'd see MD-88s subbing for half-full 757s on short routes like DTW-MCO, ATL-MCO, etc. As for the 717s, this looks like a time for more planes with a lower trip cost, not fewer.


What is interesting is that DL 717's have been replacing the M88 on routes like ATL-DAB, ATL-MLB, ATL-VPS, ATL-GNV and ATL-TLH. And soon ATL-PNS and ATL-ECP may follow suit. DL could start moving those stations over to only regional jet service, but doing a full pull-down of the 717 fleet seems a bit ambitious.

I do think DL has plans to retire the 717's when their leases expire in the 2024-25 timeframe, but by then the A220 fleet should be up to critical mass.


DL is now running ATL-BHM on about half MD88s, half B717s. I don't think that route will shift to regional jet service though.
 
tnair1974
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:16 am

C525C wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:

Great find! I remember reading an article that said there were a few occasions during the summer where the -88s performance was acceptable at SLC.

I read that AA used MD-80s SLC-ORD/DFW year round. I wonder if even these flights needed at least some seat/payload penalties during the hottest days at SLC.

BTW, add Continental Airlines to the list of MD-80 operators at SLC (apparently on SLC-IAH, looked like SLC-EWR was mainly 735s).

Of course, the old Western Airlines established SLC as a hub before the DL/WA merger. To be sure, Western was a heavily Boeing customer with a big exception of the DC-10. This said, curious if what interest WA may have had in MD-80s was tempered by the single engine performance issues at SLC. IIRC, the 737-400 also did not have the greatest thrust to weight ratio stats; just maybe why Western also did not buy the 734 to supplement their 733s and 732s??
CO mainly did SLC-DEN and a plethora of SLC-SoCal/NoCal Charters on behalf of Morris Air. Didn't do SLC-IAH that I can recall (not saying it didn't, just never saw it operated with the MD). Frontier operated the MD SLC-DEN as well. AA did tag-on SLC-JAC for quite a while . TWA used them SLC-DEN-JFK and SLC-STL.

Allegro and AeroCancun also used them out of SLC. But my favorite was the short-lived PSA service from SLC-LAX in 1981-1982.

Nice information. Forgot about CO's hub at DEN (Stapleton), so DEN-SLC via CO MD-80s.

Add AeroMexico MD-80s from SLC as well.

Are there any MD-80 operators that did not fly into SLC? Perhaps Air California MD-80s? Don't know about Alaska Airlines. Jet America MD-80s maybe.

Anyway to be a bit more on topic, not sure how the idea that DL MD-88s are often unable to use SLC came about when so many other carriers have used their MD-80s at SLC. To be Devil's Advocate, do DL's MD-88s have a heavier empty weight than MD-80s of other airlines?

Recap of earlier dialog:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1431273&hilit=retire+MD80+quickly&start=300#p21980101
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:48 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Honestly, in a way, I suspect they may actually park 717 and A319/A320s in the short-term if domestic collapses.
They could burn the cycles left on the MD88s that are going out end of this year anyways and defer maintenance on the others that were going to stick around.

This thing is getting stupider by the day. Companies are throwing up travel bans / restrictions right and left.
There will be very empty planes over the next few weeks.


With the increasing growth rate in number of cases, increase in death rate, slow response, poor communication and lack of transparency, planes will be flying with low load factors in a few weeks. My gym sent out a notice today advising what they are doing re cleaning and disinfecting and what members using the facility should be doing, e.g. washing hands, using disinfecting wipes, not using the facility if sick, etc. Companies are very concerned with how the coronavirus will impact their business. The travel industry could be especially hard hit.

I agree with burning through the cycles left on the MD88’s while parking others. Financially that probably makes more sense.
 
Delta350
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:33 am

gdavis003 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I can see how it's argued that an MD-88 with time left in it before 1/1/21 is 'wasted,' but there's the question of fuel burn. If anything, I'd see MD-88s subbing for half-full 757s on short routes like DTW-MCO, ATL-MCO, etc. As for the 717s, this looks like a time for more planes with a lower trip cost, not fewer.


What is interesting is that DL 717's have been replacing the M88 on routes like ATL-DAB, ATL-MLB, ATL-VPS, ATL-GNV and ATL-TLH. And soon ATL-PNS and ATL-ECP may follow suit. DL could start moving those stations over to only regional jet service, but doing a full pull-down of the 717 fleet seems a bit ambitious.

I do think DL has plans to retire the 717's when their leases expire in the 2024-25 timeframe, but by then the A220 fleet should be up to critical mass.


DL is now running ATL-BHM on about half MD88s, half B717s. I don't think that route will shift to regional jet service though.

Yeah, begging of June it will be MD88s, MD90s and 717s(reduced 717 flights) until January where it’s mainly MD90 flights with 717s at night
Plane Spotter from the Magic City and Hartsfield-Jackson...(ATL)
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:21 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I can see how it's argued that an MD-88 with time left in it before 1/1/21 is 'wasted,' but there's the question of fuel burn. If anything, I'd see MD-88s subbing for half-full 757s on short routes like DTW-MCO, ATL-MCO, etc. As for the 717s, this looks like a time for more planes with a lower trip cost, not fewer.


What is interesting is that DL 717's have been replacing the M88 on routes like ATL-DAB, ATL-MLB, ATL-VPS, ATL-GNV and ATL-TLH. And soon ATL-PNS and ATL-ECP may follow suit. DL could start moving those stations over to only regional jet service, but doing a full pull-down of the 717 fleet seems a bit ambitious.

I do think DL has plans to retire the 717's when their leases expire in the 2024-25 timeframe, but by then the A220 fleet should be up to critical mass.


DL is now running ATL-BHM on about half MD88s, half B717s. I don't think that route will shift to regional jet service though.


January 2021 is showing all MD90s except for two flights on 717s.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
As DL MD-88s continue into their twilight, I managed to stumble across an unusual find....photographic evidence of a Delta MD-88 at SLC.
https://www.planespotters.net/photo/037 ... glas-md-88

About a decade ago, I recall seeing a somewhat grainy internet pic of a DL MD-88 at a gate at SLC. The somewhat poor quality of the pic probably meant it would not have been acceptable in the Airliners photo section.

BTW, my earlier question about DL MD-88 engines was answered elsewhere; Delta's MD-88s have the JT8D-219 engines (21,000 lbs / 9341 kilograms thrust) which are the more powerful version of the JT8D-200 series turbofan. In comparison, AA bought new MD-82s and new MD-83s which were split between the JT8D-219s and the lower thrust JT8D-217s.


Great find! I remember reading an article that said there were a few occasions during the summer where the -88s performance was acceptable at SLC.

I read that AA used MD-80s SLC-ORD/DFW year round. I wonder if even these flights needed at least some seat/payload penalties during the hottest days at SLC.

BTW, add Continental Airlines to the list of MD-80 operators at SLC (apparently on SLC-IAH, looked like SLC-EWR was mainly 735s).

Of course, the old Western Airlines established SLC as a hub before the DL/WA merger. To be sure, Western was a heavily Boeing customer with a big exception of the DC-10. This said, curious if what interest WA may have had in MD-80s was tempered by the single engine performance issues at SLC. IIRC, the 737-400 also did not have the greatest thrust to weight ratio stats; just maybe why Western also did not buy the 734 to supplement their 733s and 732s??


The 737-400 was launched in 1986, the same year DL bought WA. I'm sure Boeing made a presentation to WA about the 737, but the DL / WA merger agreement would have been signed before WA could make a decision.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:32 am

SESGDL wrote:
I'd take that rumor with a grain of salt. Per DL's regional/pilot/scope clause, if they remove 100-seat jets then they also lose 76-seat jets as part of that agreement. I highly doubt that DL's going to be removing CR9s and E75s anytime soon.


But the A220 is now in the mix. Depends on the precise scope language of course, but from my understanding the A220 should qualify and allow for 717 retirements.
 
Lootess
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:25 am

In a way it's fitting to see a route like ATL-TLH on those 717s, they originally flew that route under the AirTran livery before they pulled out.

I just feel they could be happy with the A220 enough in-time to eventually order more and start winding down the 717 leases.
 
baje427
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:16 pm

With the Covid virus should it have a significant impact would tthis lead the a speeding up of the retirement or a delay?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:37 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:

Great find! I remember reading an article that said there were a few occasions during the summer where the -88s performance was acceptable at SLC.

I read that AA used MD-80s SLC-ORD/DFW year round. I wonder if even these flights needed at least some seat/payload penalties during the hottest days at SLC.

BTW, add Continental Airlines to the list of MD-80 operators at SLC (apparently on SLC-IAH, looked like SLC-EWR was mainly 735s).

Of course, the old Western Airlines established SLC as a hub before the DL/WA merger. To be sure, Western was a heavily Boeing customer with a big exception of the DC-10. This said, curious if what interest WA may have had in MD-80s was tempered by the single engine performance issues at SLC. IIRC, the 737-400 also did not have the greatest thrust to weight ratio stats; just maybe why Western also did not buy the 734 to supplement their 733s and 732s??


The 737-400 was launched in 1986, the same year DL bought WA. I'm sure Boeing made a presentation to WA about the 737, but the DL / WA merger agreement would have been signed before WA could make a decision.


See Delta's 1989 order for 50 MD-90s and 50 737s. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SELMER40 wrote:
The n515cr 31 Jan 2020 report shows Active MD-88s : 48.
Where does Delta get 48 airplanes in 11 months to replace them?


Building on PSU.DTW.SCE's answer, expected delveries for 2020 (and 2021, 2022, and beyond) will be shown in the annual report, probably out in less than two weeks. I'm not sure the commitments shown from 2/2019 will hold up -- I'm confident the expected 321neo count will be lower for 2020, for example.

Open a link or PDF to the annual report and search for 'purchase commitments'.


Commitments Purchase/Options As of 12/31/2019
A220-100 17/ —
A220-300 50/ 50
A321-200 31/ —
A321-200neo 100/ 100
A330-900neo 33/ —
A350-900 16/ —
total 247 / 150

Deliveries due in year 2020
A220-100 17
A220-300 6
A321-200 31
A321-200neo 1
A330-900neo 7 (including 1 lease)
A350-900 4
CRJ-900 6
Total 72
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
I read that AA used MD-80s SLC-ORD/DFW year round. I wonder if even these flights needed at least some seat/payload penalties during the hottest days at SLC.

BTW, add Continental Airlines to the list of MD-80 operators at SLC (apparently on SLC-IAH, looked like SLC-EWR was mainly 735s).

Of course, the old Western Airlines established SLC as a hub before the DL/WA merger. To be sure, Western was a heavily Boeing customer with a big exception of the DC-10. This said, curious if what interest WA may have had in MD-80s was tempered by the single engine performance issues at SLC. IIRC, the 737-400 also did not have the greatest thrust to weight ratio stats; just maybe why Western also did not buy the 734 to supplement their 733s and 732s??


The 737-400 was launched in 1986, the same year DL bought WA. I'm sure Boeing made a presentation to WA about the 737, but the DL / WA merger agreement would have been signed before WA could make a decision.


See Delta's 1989 order for 50 MD-90s and 50 737s. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


Good post!

What's ironic is that Delta only took 16 MD-90's of that original direct order with Douglas of 50. The remaining 62 MD-90's Delta owned, or leased were obtained from other airlines in the early-2010's. Also, only 5 of the 50 B733's that Delta direct-ordered from Boeing were delivered (in 1993) and all were sold off by mid-1994. Delta did continue to operate 13 ex-Western B733's until the mid/late 2000's, along 13 others obtained from other airlines in 1998.

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