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MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:43 pm

ACA772LR wrote:
I may be over optimistic here but I sure hope these planes last through this and I could possibly fly on one before they go


You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.
 
davescj
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:36 pm

DL 9964, MD88, registration N999DN, showing ATL- BHY. Looks like the last revenue flight had been DL 985 RDU - ATL on April 3. Looks like it had been scheduled (and flights cancelled) on April 3 ATL-PIT (DL 371) and ATL - OMA (DL 871). FLightrader24 does not show any future flights for this plane.
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
TW870
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
I may be over optimistic here but I sure hope these planes last through this and I could possibly fly on one before they go


You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


The -88 and -90 are the same pilot group. ATL based only. Therefore, from the labor cost side, there is no reason to retire the -90s faster than the -88s. If the frames and engines have time left and there is flying to be done, they might as well fly them. But as I said above, when they make the commitment to re-scale the airline once the pace of the ramp-up becomes clearer, both the -88s and the -90s will leave the fleet. My guess is 9/30/20 would be the latest possible date that either fleet operates.
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
I may be over optimistic here but I sure hope these planes last through this and I could possibly fly on one before they go


You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.
 
hsaviation
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:32 pm

davescj wrote:
DL 9964, MD88, registration N999DN, showing ATL- BHY. Looks like the last revenue flight had been DL 985 RDU - ATL on April 3. Looks like it had been scheduled (and flights cancelled) on April 3 ATL-PIT (DL 371) and ATL - OMA (DL 871). FLightrader24 does not show any future flights for this plane.


Two additional MD88s headed to BYH as well today - N904DE and N997DL.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:45 pm

hsaviation wrote:
davescj wrote:
DL 9964, MD88, registration N999DN, showing ATL- BHY. Looks like the last revenue flight had been DL 985 RDU - ATL on April 3. Looks like it had been scheduled (and flights cancelled) on April 3 ATL-PIT (DL 371) and ATL - OMA (DL 871). FLightrader24 does not show any future flights for this plane.


Two additional MD88s headed to BYH as well today - N904DE and N997DL.


They must have slept in today and got off to a late start, but here are the trio of aforementioned MD88's getting ready to settle in at the "MD88/90 Rest Home".

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH

The active MD fleet is now, MD88 - 29 airframes; MD90 - 10 airframes. However, the day is still young...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:07 pm

Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
I may be over optimistic here but I sure hope these planes last through this and I could possibly fly on one before they go


You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.

Ten planes doesn't pay for people training to follow all the maintenance at big airline salaries. Now, keeping them around an extra few days, that makes sense.

I'll be curious how many MD-88s are flying by Wednesday.

LIghtsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:05 pm

Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
I may be over optimistic here but I sure hope these planes last through this and I could possibly fly on one before they go


You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.


Looks like the MD-90 life has been extended. ATL-IAH looks to have had a schedule change today and is now showing as an MD-90 for the rest of the month. It originally was supposed to change to all 717.
 
hsaviation
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:10 pm

KMCOFlyer wrote:
Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.


Looks like the MD-90 life has been extended. ATL-IAH looks to have had a schedule change today and is now showing as an MD-90 for the rest of the month. It originally was supposed to change to all 717.


Great! FR24 as well as Delta's website is now showing MD90s scheduled past the 7th.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:39 pm

Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
I may be over optimistic here but I sure hope these planes last through this and I could possibly fly on one before they go


You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.

I think that's a bit catty given what has transpired. The end of the MD90 at DL was proclaimed in this thread to be April 1, and it's still flying. There are now posts in this thread indicating that it may be flying through the end of the month. The situation is clearly fluid; plans could change and they could all be pulled tomorrow, or they could keep flying for some unknown short-term time period.

lightsaber wrote:
Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.

Ten planes doesn't pay for people training to follow all the maintenance at big airline salaries. Now, keeping them around an extra few days, that makes sense.

I'll be curious how many MD-88s are flying by Wednesday.

LIghtsaber

I'm not saying I disagree with this, but it is worth noting that DL's entire MD-90 fleet was only at 16 frames for 10+ years, and DL only has 10 737-700s; for years there were very few 777s as well. DL doesn't necessarily mind operating a small sub-fleet of certain types of planes.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Yes, and a couple of times within the ownership of the original 16 MD-90s DL announced they were going away. Then they got 49 used MD-90s into service and things changed.

737-700s have significant parts (and pilot) commonality with 738s and 739s.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:08 am

HVNandrew wrote:
Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You really should be making a plan - and I understand anxiety from flying NOW. DL has long said that MD-88s would be gone by the end of the year. I have no reason to believe they've changed their mind. I don't think ten MD-90s is a reasonable/economically sensible quantity to keep flying with a separate pilot group. IMHO, they'll be gone by the end of the year, too - if not sooner.


MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.

I think that's a bit catty given what has transpired. The end of the MD90 at DL was proclaimed in this thread to be April 1, and it's still flying. There are now posts in this thread indicating that it may be flying through the end of the month. The situation is clearly fluid; plans could change and they could all be pulled tomorrow, or they could keep flying for some unknown short-term time period.

lightsaber wrote:
Lootess wrote:

MD90 only has days to live, not months. How many times do we have to repeat this. MD90 Schedules have been dwindling day by day, as we are now looking as the 7th as the last day for those clunkers.

Ten planes doesn't pay for people training to follow all the maintenance at big airline salaries. Now, keeping them around an extra few days, that makes sense.

I'll be curious how many MD-88s are flying by Wednesday.

LIghtsaber

I'm not saying I disagree with this, but it is worth noting that DL's entire MD-90 fleet was only at 16 frames for 10+ years, and DL only has 10 737-700s; for years there were very few 777s as well. DL doesn't necessarily mind operating a small sub-fleet of certain types of planes.

Just focusing on small subfleet discussion.

The 737-700 doesn't count due to the other 737s. Small gauge differences do not add significant costs. It isn't a subfleet, it was a subgauge.

I stated before my math had 17 as the minimum for a subfleet. If I am off by one in the fleet (16 vs. 17) or delta accepted an increase in costs of about a percent is interesting to us on a.net, but only changes a constant in the equation by at most 17/16 or 6%, not the theory.

Ten of a unique type is much more of a challenge or 17/10 (or 16/10). If you will, every MD-90 cost is heavily increased per aircraft now. Say keeping mechanics/engineering certified on the type.

Then I realize, why are we debating. All indications are that DL made the decision already. For myself, the decision to retire the MD-90 seems logical and not reversable. Just as the keeping the MD-88 going because of sunk costs allows reduced cash flow.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:32 am

For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:27 am

DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.

If reactivated soon, I can see that scenario. However, if time progresses and substantial re-activation costs must be incurred, it will cost to much to restart the fleet.

Looking at old quotes, it was over 20 aircraft to be retired by 2022, or in other words to 2021, There were a number, with my interpretation of this link that 9 weren't long for the fleet of the 32 (I assume due to the need for expensive maintenance checks):
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

The cost to reactivate is trivial in two weeks. In six months, it will be too high to justify flying in only 2021. So between now and October we'll find out.
The question is, how much demand will recover by October. I hope to be wrong, but I doubt there will be demand by then.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:55 am

lightsaber wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.

If reactivated soon, I can see that scenario. However, if time progresses and substantial re-activation costs must be incurred, it will cost to much to restart the fleet.

Looking at old quotes, it was over 20 aircraft to be retired by 2022, or in other words to 2021, There were a number, with my interpretation of this link that 9 weren't long for the fleet of the 32 (I assume due to the need for expensive maintenance checks):
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

The cost to reactivate is trivial in two weeks. In six months, it will be too high to justify flying in only 2021. So between now and October we'll find out.
The question is, how much demand will recover by October. I hope to be wrong, but I doubt there will be demand by then.

Lightsaber


I agree, that’s a fair assessment. Within the next six months; sooner than later.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:01 am

Parked 717/A319/A320s would be reactivated if needed for a surge, not MD-90s.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:00 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Say keeping mechanics/engineering certified on the type.

Then I realize, why are we debating. All indications are that DL made the decision already. For myself, the decision to retire the MD-90 seems logical and not reversable. Just as the keeping the MD-88 going because of sunk costs allows reduced cash flow.

Lightsaber


Keeping AMT's qualified on the type is a non issue at DL. First I would need a manager to approve me to once again be Line Qualed, I have a couple of CBT's to do for that and a few key strokes to make me fully aircraft release qual. I took the MD88/90 school almost 20 years ago. That never expires, I would just have to do a engine run check out to be requaled to run the engines. I did the Auto Land school about 12 years ago. I would need to take the yearly recurrent CBT course (about an hour), poof I'm auto land qualed. That is 100 % qualed for anything on the MD90. Most AMTs are only Line Qualed. That qual at DL is fleet wide with no specific aircraft fleet training required.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:45 pm

DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.


Just looking at current flight schedules using the MD88's and MD90's, it appears that portions of the active fleets are being used for "hot spares", parked at ATL when not flying and rotating in and out to keep cycles down. For example, the MD90's are now only used on 3 to 5 outbound flights per day from their ATL (& only) base. Saturday saw only 3 MD90 departures from ATL and so far this Sunday (as of 1:40pm EDT), no MD90's have been dispatched from ATL.

Here's the status of BYH arrivals during the past week, 4 MD88's and 2 MD90's came to BYH for a "rest":

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH/arrivals
Last edited by FLALEFTY on Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
n515cr
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:47 pm

 
MD80Ttail
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:56 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.

If reactivated soon, I can see that scenario. However, if time progresses and substantial re-activation costs must be incurred, it will cost to much to restart the fleet.

Looking at old quotes, it was over 20 aircraft to be retired by 2022, or in other words to 2021, There were a number, with my interpretation of this link that 9 weren't long for the fleet of the 32 (I assume due to the need for expensive maintenance checks):
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

The cost to reactivate is trivial in two weeks. In six months, it will be too high to justify flying in only 2021. So between now and October we'll find out.
The question is, how much demand will recover by October. I hope to be wrong, but I doubt there will be demand by then.

Lightsaber



This is 100% correct. A short term parking of a few weeks isn’t a big deal to reactivate quickly. The longer parked it simply will progress from parking to scrapping. Salvaging of good parts that make economic sense will happen. I doubt you will see the majority of them flying again. I am sure a couple or three with some life left will make it to third tier operators in developing countries. Maybe a couple as fire trainers. Only a guess on my part. (Makes me very sad as this is plane I am retiring my career from).
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:15 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.


Just looking at current flight schedules using the MD88's and MD90's, it appears that portions of the active fleets are being used for "hot spares", parked at ATL when not flying and rotating in and out to keep cycles down. For example, the MD90's are now only used on 3 to 5 outbound flights per day from their ATL (& only) base. Saturday saw only 3 MD90 departures from ATL and so far this Sunday (as of 1:40pm EDT), no MD90's have been dispatched from ATL.

Here's the status of BYH arrivals during the past week, 4 MD88's and 2 MD90's came to BYH for a "rest":

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH/arrivals

The MD88 and MD-90 are cheap hot spares. In today's fuel price environment, I would have expected more flights.


MD80Ttail wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.

If reactivated soon, I can see that scenario. However, if time progresses and substantial re-activation costs must be incurred, it will cost to much to restart the fleet.

Looking at old quotes, it was over 20 aircraft to be retired by 2022, or in other words to 2021, There were a number, with my interpretation of this link that 9 weren't long for the fleet of the 32 (I assume due to the need for expensive maintenance checks):
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

The cost to reactivate is trivial in two weeks. In six months, it will be too high to justify flying in only 2021. So between now and October we'll find out.
The question is, how much demand will recover by October. I hope to be wrong, but I doubt there will be demand by then.

Lightsaber



This is 100% correct. A short term parking of a few weeks isn’t a big deal to reactivate quickly. The longer parked it simply will progress from parking to scrapping. Salvaging of good parts that make economic sense will happen. I doubt you will see the majority of them flying again. I am sure a couple or three with some life left will make it to third tier operators in developing countries. Maybe a couple as fire trainers. Only a guess on my part. (Makes me very sad as this is plane I am retiring my career from).

It all depends on recovery timeline.

In effect, returning the MD-90s after six months will cost a third to half the cost of inducting them into the fleet as a new type. Less if earlier.

To return to duty either they are prepared for storage or A-checks continue. I doubt either will be paid for. Now making up for one or two missed A-checks on a parked aircraft isn't costly enough to be worth discussing. But having missed ten is a big deal.

Sad, but I believe that quickly it becomes uneconomical. In particular on any aircraft with less than a year to the next c-check.

I think it is pretty obvious that there will be no more c-checks started on the MD-88/90. I also think there will be no more V2500D5 engine overhauls started (JT8D overhauls were already halted). Without that certified work, these planes have limited green time remaining.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It all depends on recovery timeline.

In effect, returning the MD-90s after six months will cost a third to half the cost of inducting them into the fleet as a new type. Less if earlier.

To return to duty either they are prepared for storage or A-checks continue. I doubt either will be paid for. Now making up for one or two missed A-checks on a parked aircraft isn't costly enough to be worth discussing. But having missed ten is a big deal.

Sad, but I believe that quickly it becomes uneconomical. In particular on any aircraft with less than a year to the next c-check.

I think it is pretty obvious that there will be no more c-checks started on the MD-88/90. I also think there will be no more V2500D5 engine overhauls started (JT8D overhauls were already halted). Without that certified work, these planes have limited green time remaining.

Lightsaber


The airlines know that recovery will take years. The only question now is how bad things will get. Temporarily parking large numbers of aircraft is expensive. Right now, DL is trying to minimize the bleeding, but once things settle, it will implement its action plan ... which will unquestionably result in the fleet shrinking. Sadly, we're looking at the final days of the MD-88/90.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:02 pm

There are still a surprising number of MD80's still active. However, the numbers are declining rapidly since the first of this year. Currently, there are 143 active MD80's, down from 196~200 in December 2019. Once Delta retires their remaining 29, Mexican cargo airline, Aeronaves TSM will possibly be the largest operator with an active fleet of 12. The largest remaining US airline will be World Atlantic (an ICE "Deportation Express" contractor) who has an active fleet of 8.

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... ort=status
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:33 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:
For a subfleet of 10, and many of the planes parked previously destined for 2022, it should not be impossible to fathom that a handful could be reactivated to allow for proper economies of scale. If the economic trend nosed up a little, as the curve shifts. Particularly if many of the aircraft remain stored and not scrapped. (They won’t need to cannibalize all the recent parkings immediately). Given the situation is clearly fluid. I wouldn’t bet on it per se, but it shouldn’t be ruled out as an absolute 0% chance, just yet either.


Just looking at current flight schedules using the MD88's and MD90's, it appears that portions of the active fleets are being used for "hot spares", parked at ATL when not flying and rotating in and out to keep cycles down. For example, the MD90's are now only used on 3 to 5 outbound flights per day from their ATL (& only) base. Saturday saw only 3 MD90 departures from ATL and so far this Sunday (as of 1:40pm EDT), no MD90's have been dispatched from ATL.

Here's the status of BYH arrivals during the past week, 4 MD88's and 2 MD90's came to BYH for a "rest":

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH/arrivals


Correct, active aircraft doesn't represent 100% utilization. they have to since TechOps have barred sourcing outside parts unless they want to part out something internally like at BYH. Basically it's just the three MD-90 routes still running until they are sent to pasture. Forget about any MD-90 reactivation, there are about 30 717s parked.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:14 am

A quick update to the MD88/90 fleet status. As of today, there are 23 MD88's and 6 MD90's listed as active. The ones listed as just "stored" are probably parked at ATL, the rest are at either BYH or QRO. The "stored" aircraft consists of 5 MD90's and 5 MD88's. I'm guessing they are the "hot spares"?

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines
 
WN732
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:17 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
A quick update to the MD88/90 fleet status. As of today, there are 23 MD88's and 6 MD90's listed as active. The ones listed as just "stored" are probably parked at ATL, the rest are at either BYH or QRO. The "stored" aircraft consists of 5 MD90's and 5 MD88's. I'm guessing they are the "hot spares"?

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines


I saw a photo from yesterday of a bunch of MD's parked on a remote ramp in ATL, along with a bunch of Airbus and 737's. I'd imagine they are just ready hot spares.
 
deltairlines
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:05 pm

The planes parked at ATL will be rotated with the active planes flying every seven days or so. Anything plane parked over seven days requires an engine run before putting it back in service, so the plan is to just rotate through the planes keeping them all as semi-hot spares to avoid having to put them in long-term storage.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:06 pm

Cool satellite shot I found of -88's awaiting their fate at Blythville, AR airport.

Image
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:25 pm

Ironic that they're parked at the intersection of Atlanta St. and Georgia Avenue..
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Dalmd88
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:45 pm

I think that shot is pretty old. Not what is currently there.Delta has been sending MD80 and MD90's there for years. Not all are even Delta operated. Some were bought used for parts and the part outs were done there.
 
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2nd2none
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:58 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
I think that shot is pretty old. Not what is currently there.Delta has been sending MD80 and MD90's there for years. Not all are even Delta operated. Some were bought used for parts and the part outs were done there.


Some of those planes (in that image) are EVA Air?
 
B757Forever
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:51 pm

2nd2none wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I think that shot is pretty old. Not what is currently there.Delta has been sending MD80 and MD90's there for years. Not all are even Delta operated. Some were bought used for parts and the part outs were done there.


Some of those planes (in that image) are EVA Air?


Those are the EVA Air birds that DL acquired for parts.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:52 pm

If you look up the airport yourself on Google maps, and then zoom in close, you can read the Delta titles on the sides.

Im guessing it is about a year old.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:41 pm

A bunch of MD90 flights today. Any new info?
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:53 pm

Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!
 
727LOVER
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:11 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
A bunch of MD90 flights today. Any new info?


A bunch flew normal flights or a bunch flew to SBD or BYH ?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:21 pm

727LOVER wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
A bunch of MD90 flights today. Any new info?


A bunch flew normal flights or a bunch flew to SBD or BYH ?



Normal flights, in and out of Atlanta.
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:21 pm

727LOVER wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
A bunch of MD90 flights today. Any new info?


A bunch flew normal flights or a bunch flew to SBD or BYH ?


Looking at BYH there doesn’t seem to be any MD90 flights into there today so there must be revenue flights being flown still
 
FlyingViking
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:34 pm

ACA772LR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
A bunch of MD90 flights today. Any new info?


A bunch flew normal flights or a bunch flew to SBD or BYH ?


Looking at BYH there doesn’t seem to be any MD90 flights into there today so there must be revenue flights being flown still



GRR-BUF-SRQ-IAH-ORF-PIT? and ATL (of course) saw MD90 service today. No BYH since Saturday, yeah.
 
hsaviation
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:06 am

FlyingViking wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:

A bunch flew normal flights or a bunch flew to SBD or BYH ?


Looking at BYH there doesn’t seem to be any MD90 flights into there today so there must be revenue flights being flown still


GRR-BUF-SRQ-IAH-ORF-PIT? and ATL (of course) saw MD90 service today. No BYH since Saturday, yeah.


Add RDU, HSV and IAD to that list! 4 MD90 flights in the air right now :D
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:13 am

Yep, all the basic ATL spokes with the six actives, on rotating basis. Although all of them could be backfilled with MD88 easily, and should in-time with the way LFs are.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:57 am

That’s goods news. A few days ago it was only 2 routes out of ATL for the MD90, IIRC. At this point, we’ll take any win we can get.

Appreciate everyone’s contribution taking the time to report on service activity and retirements. Checking this daily now.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
727LOVER
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:20 am

FlyingViking wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:

A bunch flew normal flights or a bunch flew to SBD or BYH ?


Looking at BYH there doesn’t seem to be any MD90 flights into there today so there must be revenue flights being flown still



GRR-BUF-SRQ-IAH-ORF-PIT? and ATL (of course) saw MD90 service today. No BYH since Saturday, yeah.


Where are you seeing THAT? I don't see any MD-90s into SRQ today
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:45 am

727LOVER wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:

Looking at BYH there doesn’t seem to be any MD90 flights into there today so there must be revenue flights being flown still



GRR-BUF-SRQ-IAH-ORF-PIT? and ATL (of course) saw MD90 service today. No BYH since Saturday, yeah.


Where are you seeing THAT? I don't see any MD-90s into SRQ today




Flight DAL2818 ATL-SRQ-ATL
 
n7371f
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:36 am

M88 will keep flying in immediate future. With low oil prices and the planes with zero ownership costs, they're actually cheaper to operate than some of the other newer aircraft.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:43 am

n7371f wrote:
M88 will keep flying in immediate future. With low oil prices and the planes with zero ownership costs, they're actually cheaper to operate than some of the other newer aircraft.


They’re not cheaper to operate - of the domestic fleet, only the 757 burns more fuel per hour (and per passenger burn rates really don’t matter at this point, given that hardly any flights are operating full). The accounting/finance guys only look at what’s called relevant costs... and ownership isn’t one of them, given that DL’s stuck paying for a 739 whether it’s operating revenue flights or sitting in the desert.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:15 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
n7371f wrote:
M88 will keep flying in immediate future. With low oil prices and the planes with zero ownership costs, they're actually cheaper to operate than some of the other newer aircraft.


They’re not cheaper to operate - of the domestic fleet, only the 757 burns more fuel per hour (and per passenger burn rates really don’t matter at this point, given that hardly any flights are operating full). The accounting/finance guys only look at what’s called relevant costs... and ownership isn’t one of them, given that DL’s stuck paying for a 739 whether it’s operating revenue flights or sitting in the desert.

Yes, and because of that airlines tend to prefer to park inefficient and paid off aircraft first in situations like this. Your ownership costs are constant no matter what you park (since aircraft are not paid off per flight) and you are minimizing your fuel costs.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:29 pm

The only thing that comes to mind about operating costs are the ongoing maintenance and check costs. Since the MD-80/90 series is EOL, and they are essentially using their own existing spares pool for parts, is it possible that the maintenance costs per flight hour on the existing supers is lower than for the newer frames? Delta isn't likely to believe that the Super's have any actual resale value, so, there is no book depreciation on their value by flying them a couple of times a week to keep them in an active state. The alternative is depreciating newer assets, like 739s, etc, and pushing them closer to their next major maintenance interval faster than they otherwise would be by doing the same type of flying. So, while OWNERSHIP costs remain the same, OPERATING costs can be different. Running the frame hours off a newer plane that has a lot of life left to give costs more in value than flying the last few hours off of frames that are destined to be soda cans in a few years, and the scrap value on them won't change in any meaningful way by putting more hours on them now.

As for fuel, yes, the Supers do use a lot more fuel per hour, especially when full, but these frames are flying around half empty at best, some have crew outnumbering passengers on some legs. We are also in an era of substantially reduced fuel costs as well, so the actual dollar cost in consumables to operate these craft may not be that much higher than it is on the newer frames.

I also wonder, what does Delta's fuel situation look like? Are they obligated to take a minimum amount of fuel each day/week/month by some contracts? Does burning off more of that fuel instead of having to store it or pay a penalty to not take it, help them in any way? I have no idea if they have J.I.T. fuel arrangements at a lot of their stations, or is it just that they pay per lb/gallon by whoever the local fuel distributor is? What I'm trying to say is that, if they have already paid a certain amount to take a certain amount of fuel ongoing, it doesn't matter what they fly as that charge will be flat until it can be renegotiated.
 
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NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1336
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:39 pm

Polot wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
n7371f wrote:
M88 will keep flying in immediate future. With low oil prices and the planes with zero ownership costs, they're actually cheaper to operate than some of the other newer aircraft.


They’re not cheaper to operate - of the domestic fleet, only the 757 burns more fuel per hour (and per passenger burn rates really don’t matter at this point, given that hardly any flights are operating full). The accounting/finance guys only look at what’s called relevant costs... and ownership isn’t one of them, given that DL’s stuck paying for a 739 whether it’s operating revenue flights or sitting in the desert.

Yes, and because of that airlines tend to prefer to park inefficient and paid off aircraft first in situations like this. Your ownership costs are constant no matter what you park (since aircraft are not paid off per flight) and you are minimizing your fuel costs.

The bean counters are using their heads for no more than growing hair on them. No matter if an airline is making mortgage or lease payments on an aircraft it does NOT make any more financial sense to fly that encumbered aircraft than to fly a paid off aircraft that has has time left on it and does not need heavy maintenance.. The old paid off aircraft are preserving the newer aircraft for more long term use and flights. The older aircraft are only going to be retired once the country starts to return to normal. Unless the airlines are going to file bankruptcy so they can shed unwanted aircraft that are not paid for or are leased there is no real financial reason to not use their older unencumbered aircraft. This is NOT the only reason an airline will possibly file bankruptcy. They would want to shed pensions, lower employee wages, employee head count and reduce other debt and obligations. Don't think for a minute that this is not an option that the airlines are studying. They are just keeping their plans to a very small group of upper management. Also there are a good number of new aircraft they may not want to take delivery of and it is not just undelivered 737-MAX. The airlines are saying they are going to be "smaller" which means less aircraft, lower wages, fewer employees and other financial obligations.. :old:

Also, it was on today's news that Southwest Airlines flew one passenger, a doctor, from the East coast to LAX. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
slowroll
Posts: 16
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:48 pm

With DL not booking middle seats, are they only allowing one passenger in each 2-seat row on the MDs?

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