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WidebodyPTV
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:26 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind about operating costs are the ongoing maintenance and check costs. Since the MD-80/90 series is EOL, and they are essentially using their own existing spares pool for parts, is it possible that the maintenance costs per flight hour on the existing supers is lower than for the newer frames? Delta isn't likely to believe that the Super's have any actual resale value, so, there is no book depreciation on their value by flying them a couple of times a week to keep them in an active state. The alternative is depreciating newer assets, like 739s, etc, and pushing them closer to their next major maintenance interval faster than they otherwise would be by doing the same type of flying. So, while OWNERSHIP costs remain the same, OPERATING costs can be different. Running the frame hours off a newer plane that has a lot of life left to give costs more in value than flying the last few hours off of frames that are destined to be soda cans in a few years, and the scrap value on them won't change in any meaningful way by putting more hours on them now.

As for fuel, yes, the Supers do use a lot more fuel per hour, especially when full, but these frames are flying around half empty at best, some have crew outnumbering passengers on some legs. We are also in an era of substantially reduced fuel costs as well, so the actual dollar cost in consumables to operate these craft may not be that much higher than it is on the newer frames.

I also wonder, what does Delta's fuel situation look like? Are they obligated to take a minimum amount of fuel each day/week/month by some contracts? Does burning off more of that fuel instead of having to store it or pay a penalty to not take it, help them in any way? I have no idea if they have J.I.T. fuel arrangements at a lot of their stations, or is it just that they pay per lb/gallon by whoever the local fuel distributor is? What I'm trying to say is that, if they have already paid a certain amount to take a certain amount of fuel ongoing, it doesn't matter what they fly as that charge will be flat until it can be renegotiated.


Cycles are arguably a better indicator of an aircraft’s useful life, but their asset value / depreciation life is based upon time. It’s like a car... miles may be a better indicator of their useful life, but they’re depreciated over time. And their asset value is based largely on time — if you went to the Toyota dealer today, and you bought a brand new 2018 car that’s been sitting on the lot, drove it 10K miles and tried selling it in a year, it’s going to be worth significantly less than somebody who bought 2020 model on the same day and put 15K miles on it.

Secondly, it’s expensive to keep planes in storage. There’s parking fees, some level of maintenance fees, insurance costs, re-activation cost (depends on how long the plane was parked and the level of maintenance), etc. The longer a plane has been parked... the greater its cost.

DL has a ton of extra capacity, and it’s going to take years to fully recover from this. They have a large collection of late model 739 and 321 that were never likely to operate 30 years to begin with, so while the idea that DL could operate the MD-88 indefinitely while preserving cycles on those planes seems logical, it’s also not rational. The newer aircraft are more efficient and collectively have less maintenance costs... they’ll be be operating over the MD-88.

While it’s nice to see others who’d like the 88/90 to linger on... they’ll be gone soon.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 776
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:28 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind about operating costs are the ongoing maintenance and check costs. Since the MD-80/90 series is EOL, and they are essentially using their own existing spares pool for parts, is it possible that the maintenance costs per flight hour on the existing supers is lower than for the newer frames? Delta isn't likely to believe that the Super's have any actual resale value, so, there is no book depreciation on their value by flying them a couple of times a week to keep them in an active state. The alternative is depreciating newer assets, like 739s, etc, and pushing them closer to their next major maintenance interval faster than they otherwise would be by doing the same type of flying. So, while OWNERSHIP costs remain the same, OPERATING costs can be different. Running the frame hours off a newer plane that has a lot of life left to give costs more in value than flying the last few hours off of frames that are destined to be soda cans in a few years, and the scrap value on them won't change in any meaningful way by putting more hours on them now.

As for fuel, yes, the Supers do use a lot more fuel per hour, especially when full, but these frames are flying around half empty at best, some have crew outnumbering passengers on some legs. We are also in an era of substantially reduced fuel costs as well, so the actual dollar cost in consumables to operate these craft may not be that much higher than it is on the newer frames.

I also wonder, what does Delta's fuel situation look like? Are they obligated to take a minimum amount of fuel each day/week/month by some contracts? Does burning off more of that fuel instead of having to store it or pay a penalty to not take it, help them in any way? I have no idea if they have J.I.T. fuel arrangements at a lot of their stations, or is it just that they pay per lb/gallon by whoever the local fuel distributor is? What I'm trying to say is that, if they have already paid a certain amount to take a certain amount of fuel ongoing, it doesn't matter what they fly as that charge will be flat until it can be renegotiated.


Cycles are arguably a better indicator of an aircraft’s useful life, but their asset value / depreciation life is based upon time. It’s like a car... miles may be a better indicator of their useful life, but they’re depreciated over time. And their asset value is based largely on time — if you went to the Toyota dealer today, and you bought a brand new 2018 car that’s been sitting on the lot, drove it 10K miles and tried selling it in a year, it’s going to be worth significantly less than somebody who bought 2020 model on the same day and put 15K miles on it.

Secondly, it’s expensive to keep planes in storage. There’s parking fees, some level of maintenance fees, insurance costs, re-activation cost (depends on how long the plane was parked and the level of maintenance), etc. The longer a plane has been parked... the greater its cost.

DL has a ton of extra capacity, and it’s going to take years to fully recover from this. They have a large collection of late model 739 and 321 that were never likely to operate 30 years to begin with, so while the idea that DL could operate the MD-88 indefinitely while preserving cycles on those planes seems logical, it’s also not rational. The newer aircraft are more efficient and collectively have less maintenance costs... they’ll be be operating over the MD-88.

While it’s nice to see others who’d like the 88/90 to linger on... they’ll be gone soon.


Delta's original plan for the MD88's was to fully retire them at the end of this year. My guess is that they are trying hard to stick to that plan.

Delta's plans for the MD90's seems to be changing. Currently 13 of the 26 that were active as of January have been sent to BYH and are probably not returning to service. Two are sitting at QRO waiting for heavy checks that might not happen. The remaining 11 are at ATL, with 10 designated as active and 1 listed as stored (probably used as a spare). But it is looking like the original plan for the MD90's to soldier on to 2022 is now up in the air.

In both cases, delaying the retirements of the MD88/90 fleets until after December will allow Delta some more time to sort out their pilot pools. Had the COVID-19 crisis not occurred, Delta would have been able to absorb most of the soon-to-be-former MD88/90 pilots into the more modern aircraft in their fleet. But given the circumstances, some furloughs and early retirements from the MD88/90 pilot pool seems to be on the horizon.
 
tjerome
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:44 pm

MD-90s will be gone by the end of this year as well.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:40 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:22 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Polot wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:



Also, it was on today's news that Southwest Airlines flew one passenger, a doctor, from the East coast to LAX. :old:


Ten days ago I flew Southwest from SJC to SAN with six passengers. Then three days later SAN-DEN with nine. And DEN-BWI-PWM with 24 and seven, respectively.
Last edited by pwm2txlhopper on Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:25 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
The only thing that comes to mind about operating costs are the ongoing maintenance and check costs. Since the MD-80/90 series is EOL, and they are essentially using their own existing spares pool for parts, is it possible that the maintenance costs per flight hour on the existing supers is lower than for the newer frames? Delta isn't likely to believe that the Super's have any actual resale value, so, there is no book depreciation on their value by flying them a couple of times a week to keep them in an active state. The alternative is depreciating newer assets, like 739s, etc, and pushing them closer to their next major maintenance interval faster than they otherwise would be by doing the same type of flying. So, while OWNERSHIP costs remain the same, OPERATING costs can be different. Running the frame hours off a newer plane that has a lot of life left to give costs more in value than flying the last few hours off of frames that are destined to be soda cans in a few years, and the scrap value on them won't change in any meaningful way by putting more hours on them now.

As for fuel, yes, the Supers do use a lot more fuel per hour, especially when full, but these frames are flying around half empty at best, some have crew outnumbering passengers on some legs. We are also in an era of substantially reduced fuel costs as well, so the actual dollar cost in consumables to operate these craft may not be that much higher than it is on the newer frames.

I also wonder, what does Delta's fuel situation look like? Are they obligated to take a minimum amount of fuel each day/week/month by some contracts? Does burning off more of that fuel instead of having to store it or pay a penalty to not take it, help them in any way? I have no idea if they have J.I.T. fuel arrangements at a lot of their stations, or is it just that they pay per lb/gallon by whoever the local fuel distributor is? What I'm trying to say is that, if they have already paid a certain amount to take a certain amount of fuel ongoing, it doesn't matter what they fly as that charge will be flat until it can be renegotiated.


Cycles are arguably a better indicator of an aircraft’s useful life, but their asset value / depreciation life is based upon time. It’s like a car... miles may be a better indicator of their useful life, but they’re depreciated over time. And their asset value is based largely on time — if you went to the Toyota dealer today, and you bought a brand new 2018 car that’s been sitting on the lot, drove it 10K miles and tried selling it in a year, it’s going to be worth significantly less than somebody who bought 2020 model on the same day and put 15K miles on it.

Secondly, it’s expensive to keep planes in storage. There’s parking fees, some level of maintenance fees, insurance costs, re-activation cost (depends on how long the plane was parked and the level of maintenance), etc. The longer a plane has been parked... the greater its cost.

DL has a ton of extra capacity, and it’s going to take years to fully recover from this. They have a large collection of late model 739 and 321 that were never likely to operate 30 years to begin with, so while the idea that DL could operate the MD-88 indefinitely while preserving cycles on those planes seems logical, it’s also not rational. The newer aircraft are more efficient and collectively have less maintenance costs... they’ll be be operating over the MD-88.

While it’s nice to see others who’d like the 88/90 to linger on... they’ll be gone soon.


Delta's original plan for the MD88's was to fully retire them at the end of this year. My guess is that they are trying hard to stick to that plan.

Delta's plans for the MD90's seems to be changing. Currently 13 of the 26 that were active as of January have been sent to BYH and are probably not returning to service. Two are sitting at QRO waiting for heavy checks that might not happen. The remaining 11 are at ATL, with 10 designated as active and 1 listed as stored (probably used as a spare). But it is looking like the original plan for the MD90's to soldier on to 2022 is now up in the air.

In both cases, delaying the retirements of the MD88/90 fleets until after December will allow Delta some more time to sort out their pilot pools. Had the COVID-19 crisis not occurred, Delta would have been able to absorb most of the soon-to-be-former MD88/90 pilots into the more modern aircraft in their fleet. But given the circumstances, some furloughs and early retirements from the MD88/90 pilot pool seems to be on the horizon.


I doubt either the 88 or 90 will survive past summer - if they even make it that far. The APC forums are relaying that the 88 and 90 are gone, as well as select 320, 757 and 763. Parking planes is expensive. While it’s disappointing, we’re looking at the final days — literally — of the legacy McDonnell Douglas jets.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:02 pm

I frankly wouldn’t be shocked if the MD88 MD90 fleet doesn’t survive past the end of May.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:27 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I frankly wouldn’t be shocked if the MD88 MD90 fleet doesn’t survive past the end of May.


I agree. I’m more surprised at the number of people within this forum who believe that this will be over soon, and airlines will keep all of their planes, return to their planned schedules, and various capital projects - aircraft refurbishment, new aircraft acquisition, airport construction projects, etc. - will proceed.

The 88/90 will be gone soon. Stop convincing yourself otherwise.
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:54 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I frankly wouldn’t be shocked if the MD88 MD90 fleet doesn’t survive past the end of May.


I agree. I’m more surprised at the number of people within this forum who believe that this will be over soon, and airlines will keep all of their planes, return to their planned schedules, and various capital projects - aircraft refurbishment, new aircraft acquisition, airport construction projects, etc. - will proceed.

The 88/90 will be gone soon. Stop convincing yourself otherwise.



Let’s get real here.......no one here really knows Deltas plans or knows the timeline of the MD88-90s exiting the fleet period.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:01 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I frankly wouldn’t be shocked if the MD88 MD90 fleet doesn’t survive past the end of May.


I agree. I’m more surprised at the number of people within this forum who believe that this will be over soon, and airlines will keep all of their planes, return to their planned schedules, and various capital projects - aircraft refurbishment, new aircraft acquisition, airport construction projects, etc. - will proceed.

The 88/90 will be gone soon. Stop convincing yourself otherwise.


At this point, I think it's akin to being in the denial stage of grieving.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:03 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I frankly wouldn’t be shocked if the MD88 MD90 fleet doesn’t survive past the end of May.


I agree. I’m more surprised at the number of people within this forum who believe that this will be over soon, and airlines will keep all of their planes, return to their planned schedules, and various capital projects - aircraft refurbishment, new aircraft acquisition, airport construction projects, etc. - will proceed.

The 88/90 will be gone soon. Stop convincing yourself otherwise.


A lot of other planes will also be gone soon. Pre and early NG 737's will be leaving in droves, they used to go to the 3rd world, but basically everywhere has been bringing on new metal for over a decade, over 13,400 in 10 years (A & B), there have been around 26,000 deliveries in the jet era. so half of the planes produced have been in the last 10 years compared to the other half taking 50 years. Yes traffic has grown, but there is now a reset. Something like 3,000 planes may be permanently parked due to this event. MD metal will probably disappear (well 99%) retired within 5 years, except for some random freighters and the like. Parts support is basically already ended, DL is just scalping parts to keep theirs afloat.
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:24 pm

NWAESC wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I frankly wouldn’t be shocked if the MD88 MD90 fleet doesn’t survive past the end of May.


I agree. I’m more surprised at the number of people within this forum who believe that this will be over soon, and airlines will keep all of their planes, return to their planned schedules, and various capital projects - aircraft refurbishment, new aircraft acquisition, airport construction projects, etc. - will proceed.

The 88/90 will be gone soon. Stop convincing yourself otherwise.


At this point, I think it's akin to being in the denial stage of grieving.


You’re most likely correct, especially for those who have never gotten the chance to fly on one. And not to get off topic but it’s not like anyone saw this virus coming either is respect to border closures and traffic dropping in the span of 2-3 weeks
 
NLINK
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:58 pm

There is a logical reason Delta is hanging onto them for a short while. That reason is training expenses. They know the MD80 and MD90 are gone. If they retire them now, spend the capital to put them into whatever line they can hold, that is an expense. The reason they are waiting is to see how everything is going to play out. The training and ability for DL pilots to hold certain AC change dramatically if instead of just retiring the MD80/MD90 series, all of a sudden they retire 25 767-300ER, 40 757-200, All MD80/MD90, 20 320-200 and so on. (Made up numbers, just an example). DL is trying to not double and triple spend money on the same pilots to retype them for different ac multiple times.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:00 am

While I'm sad to see the Super 80s go, I'm more just trying to wrap my head around why Delta is still bothering to fly them. Given how horrible their financials are right now, there has to be some sort of financial incentive for them to not just park them all immediately. I hadn't thought about pilot contracts and retraining costs, so that throws another wrinkle into the mix.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:35 am

The reasons why they are likely still flying in the immediate days / few weeks ahead:

1) pilot contract- specifically paying pilots on the fleet type per contractual requirements for this month and until they can reach a deal with the pilots union or envoke clauses to end the fleet type and facilitate the impact on biddings and realignments

2) burning remaining “green time” and cycles on aircraft that aren’t due for any immediate maintenance checks

3) Vendors only have so much manpower and throughout to induct so many aircraft for short/medium/long term parking that there is a backlog that they just can’t process at the storage and
scrapping locations

4) Priorities have been focused on winding-down the airline and capacity and everything has been day to day focused. They just got a revised April schedule out last week. still trying to get May figured out. Once they reach the bottom and there is any sort of indication on what the next 3-6-9-12-24 months may hold they can start to focus on a broader reset. Literally every plan has been tossed out, and need to figure out what the new reality looks like.

This is a case for every company, everyone has been upended by the near term day to day tactical decisions. Eventually will have to reset and plan for the future in a depressed economic environment.
 
NLINK
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:56 pm

They are running simulations based upon projected market conditions and they have a lot of variables to include in these studies. In those projections I would guess they are looking out 30 days, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 year, etc. I would assume they are using historical data from 9/11 as a rough idea also but I'm assuming this will take longer to recover. Based upon pilots and such it is usually a trickle down effect. They are more than likely starting with the widebodies first running seeing what they can retire, crew costs, maintenance costs, lease costs and outs due to this (they own a majority of the widebodies). Maybe they say instead of parking some or all off the 767-300ER which most people assume, they might park the oddball 8/777-200Er due to crew costs and engine work not done in house and the capability not needed. Could be they have a buyer for the 767-400ER for freighters and they get offloaded earlier? There is a lot behind the scenes. Once they get the Widebodie decision done in house, (which they probably have it narrowed down to 2 or 3 options already), then they will work on the narrow body fleet.

I would assume at least a 25 to 30% minimum fleet cut minimum.
 
Delta350
Posts: 197
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:24 pm

NLINK wrote:
They are running simulations based upon projected market conditions and they have a lot of variables to include in these studies. In those projections I would guess they are looking out 30 days, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 year, etc. I would assume they are using historical data from 9/11 as a rough idea also but I'm assuming this will take longer to recover. Based upon pilots and such it is usually a trickle down effect. They are more than likely starting with the widebodies first running seeing what they can retire, crew costs, maintenance costs, lease costs and outs due to this (they own a majority of the widebodies). Maybe they say instead of parking some or all off the 767-300ER which most people assume, they might park the oddball 8/777-200Er due to crew costs and engine work not done in house and the capability not needed. Could be they have a buyer for the 767-400ER for freighters and they get offloaded earlier? There is a lot behind the scenes. Once they get the Widebodie decision done in house, (which they probably have it narrowed down to 2 or 3 options already), then they will work on the narrow body fleet.

I would assume at least a 25 to 30% minimum fleet cut minimum.

They just refurbed the 764s, that’s a waste of money to give it up. They’ll most likely retire most of the 763s.
Plane Spotter from the Magic City and Hartsfield-Jackson...(ATL)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:39 pm

Delta350 wrote:
They just refurbed the 764s, that’s a waste of money to give it up. They’ll most likely retire most of the 763s.


DL started retiring 747-400s within about 27 months of finishing the refurbs. New business seats in the 767-400s is not (necessarily) an impediment to retiring them, not when they're losing tens of $millions every day across the enterprise.
 
bennett123
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:47 pm

Could the seats be fitted to other aircraft?.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:38 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Could the seats be fitted to other aircraft?.

Yes the seats could be fitted to other aircraft. But the question is does Delta want to. Delta could remove them and store them if necessary. The seats would most likely stay on any leased aircraft or if Delta sees the aircraft returning to service. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:00 pm

A line of thunderstorms is delaying them, but 2 more MD-88's are scheduled to be sent to BYH today.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH/enroute

The active fleets now consist of 9 MD90's and 26 MD88's.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:36 pm

ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now. Not sure how airline traffic is developing in your country; here in Europe it is down to almost nothing. For example Lufthansa used to have 350,000 daily passengers and is currently transporting less than 3,000.
 
LHA320
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:39 pm

N905DL, the fifth MD-80 delivered to DL, seems to resist retirement and is still going on. What is the plan for her? planespotter.net shows her in a different configuration than the rest. The last one which was originally delivered as MD-82, so kind of special
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
KFTG
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:56 pm

Delta350 wrote:
They just refurbed the 764s, that’s a waste of money to give it up. They’ll most likely retire most of the 763s.

You have no idea what you're talking about. "But the seats are brand new!" is not a discussion happening at the executive level offices in Atlanta. The airlines are in survival mode. There are 747s in Marana right now with the fuselages cut in half, with bird droppings on "Delta One" seats that are five years old.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:00 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now. Not sure how airline traffic is developing in your country; here in Europe it is down to almost nothing. For example Lufthansa used to have 350,000 daily passengers and is currently transporting less than 3,000.


we don’t have these in Canada....
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:51 pm

KFTG wrote:
You have no idea what you're talking about. "But the seats are brand new!" is not a discussion happening at the executive level offices in Atlanta. The airlines are in survival mode. There are 747s in Marana right now with the fuselages cut in half, with bird droppings on "Delta One" seats that are five years old.


Except that DL will survive - it's not having a fire sale, and all decisions it make will be strategic. Management has told various employee groups that it's looking at immediately retiring select MD-88, MD-90, 320, 757 and 763; unsurprisingly, these are the oldest aircraft in DL's fleet. The oldest 764 haven't even turned 20 yet -- it's far more likely DL will permanently retire some of its oldest 763, and temporarily park (perhaps rotating select frames) other types.
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:06 pm

We’re getting off topic here with the talk about 763-764s
 
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rj968
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:21 am

LHA320 wrote:
N905DL, the fifth MD-80 delivered to DL, seems to resist retirement and is still going on. What is the plan for her? planespotter.net shows her in a different configuration than the rest. The last one which was originally delivered as MD-82, so kind of special


I don’t follow fleets closely, so I was surprised to see ship 905 was still around. I remember when it was brand new along with the other MD-82’s before conversion to MD-88’s.

Here’s another piece of 905’s history. It was the airplane used in SLC as a “backdrop” on DL/WA merger day, April 1st, 1987. It had Western’s advertising mascot “Wally Bird” painted on the right side only. I was surprised to see that it remained on the plane for years, probably until it’s next paint job into the “Ron Allen” scheme. It looked like a military squadron patch/logo
.
Can’t find a good pic in the database (it’s the round thing behind the Widget). There is a good pic #wallybird.



RJ968
 
UA444
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:18 am

rj968 wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
N905DL, the fifth MD-80 delivered to DL, seems to resist retirement and is still going on. What is the plan for her? planespotter.net shows her in a different configuration than the rest. The last one which was originally delivered as MD-82, so kind of special


I don’t follow fleets closely, so I was surprised to see ship 905 was still around. I remember when it was brand new along with the other MD-82’s before conversion to MD-88’s.

Here’s another piece of 905’s history. It was the airplane used in SLC as a “backdrop” on DL/WA merger day, April 1st, 1987. It had Western’s advertising mascot “Wally Bird” painted on the right side only. I was surprised to see that it remained on the plane for years, probably until it’s next paint job into the “Ron Allen” scheme. It looked like a military squadron patch/logo
.
Can’t find a good pic in the database (it’s the round thing behind the Widget). There is a good pic #wallybird.



RJ968

That livery, the United Rainbow livery, and American tri stripe should all be around today.
 
User avatar
N776AU
Posts: 1007
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:46 am

LHA320 wrote:
N905DL, the fifth MD-80 delivered to DL, seems to resist retirement and is still going on. What is the plan for her? planespotter.net shows her in a different configuration than the rest. The last one which was originally delivered as MD-82, so kind of special

I can’t believe that one is still going. I flew it 3 years ago and it was looking very tired inside and out. I can’t imagine it has gotten any better.
Careful, doors are closing, and will not reopen. Please wait for the next train.
 
Lootess
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:36 am

Back to business, 2 more MD-88s going to BYH tomorrow. That'll put us at about 24 active.

I think it's really 8 MD90 active though. Will they make May 1. Likely not.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:13 am

ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

MartijnNL wrote:
What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now.

ACA772LR wrote:
We don’t have these in Canada....

Until very recently Delta scheduled the MD-88 up to seven times daily between Atlanta and Toronto. This was the number one reason for my to travel from Europe to Canada two months ago.

Unfortunately the aviation world has changed drastically during the last weeks. Older aircraft types may very well never return to service. Many routes may disappear as well for the time being.
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:47 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

MartijnNL wrote:
What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now.

ACA772LR wrote:
We don’t have these in Canada....

Until very recently Delta scheduled the MD-88 up to seven times daily between Atlanta and Toronto. This was the number one reason for my to travel from Europe to Canada two months ago.

Unfortunately the aviation world has changed drastically during the last weeks. Older aircraft types may very well never return to service. Many routes may disappear as well for the time being.



I realize this........
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:53 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

MartijnNL wrote:
What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now.

ACA772LR wrote:
We don’t have these in Canada....

Until very recently Delta scheduled the MD-88 up to seven times daily between Atlanta and Toronto. This was the number one reason for my to travel from Europe to Canada two months ago.

Unfortunately the aviation world has changed drastically during the last weeks. Older aircraft types may very well never return to service. Many routes may disappear as well for the time being.


I had plans to fly on these until this whole virus virtually shut the airspace and flights down overnight so not much that one can do about that
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:02 pm

ACA772LR wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

MartijnNL wrote:
What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now.

ACA772LR wrote:
We don’t have these in Canada....

Until very recently Delta scheduled the MD-88 up to seven times daily between Atlanta and Toronto. This was the number one reason for my to travel from Europe to Canada two months ago.

Unfortunately the aviation world has changed drastically during the last weeks. Older aircraft types may very well never return to service. Many routes may disappear as well for the time being.



I realize this
 
User avatar
pwm2txlhopper
Posts: 1455
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:40 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:05 pm

N998DL is currently descending into BYH from ATL as Flt. 3276

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N998DL
 
mcg
Posts: 1086
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:11 pm

When DL sends the MD-80's to BYH, do they continue to be owned by DL or are they sold to a scavenger? Ultimately does DL manage the scrapping process or are the aircraft sold to a scrapper? Thanks in advance for any info.
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:12 pm

ACA772LR wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Still hoping and praying for a ride on one of these!

MartijnNL wrote:
What kept you from booking a flight on one of these in the last twenty years? It's probably too late now.

ACA772LR wrote:
We don’t have these in Canada....

Until very recently Delta scheduled the MD-88 up to seven times daily between Atlanta and Toronto. This was the number one reason for my to travel from Europe to Canada two months ago.

Unfortunately the aviation world has changed drastically during the last weeks. Older aircraft types may very well never return to service. Many routes may disappear as well for the time being.


I had plans to fly on these until this whole virus virtually shut the border and flights down overnight so not much that one can do about that
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8060
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:37 pm

This is the vendor at BYH that performs storage, part-outs, and scrapping/disassembly services

http://artmaintenance.com/storage-disassembly/
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 776
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:49 pm

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
N998DL is currently descending into BYH from ATL as Flt. 3276

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N998DL


It is possible that two of the 5 listed just as "stored" (presumably at ATL) could rotate into the active fleet to replace the two that are heading to BYH today?

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines

Do you know the tail number of DL 3277?
 
n515cr
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:04 pm

968 also now in the air to BYH. 27 active '88s by my count.
 
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lightsaber
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Topic Author
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:06 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
N998DL is currently descending into BYH from ATL as Flt. 3276

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N998DL


It is possible that two of the 5 listed just as "stored" (presumably at ATL) could rotate into the active fleet to replace the two that are heading to BYH today?

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines

Do you know the tail number of DL 3277?

I expect green time is being reviewed. It is plausible that airframes and engines are rotated back into duty.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
WN732
Posts: 779
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:42 pm

There is a new emergency AD that was put out for the V2500 and the required compliance is before the end of April. You can see the full details by following the link:
https://news.aviation-safety.net/2020/0 ... n-vietnam/

It would appear to comprise of tremendous cost. And Delta does not have any other aircraft with V2500. I wouldn't imagine that they'd want to shell out the cost for such a small subfleet.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8060
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:46 pm

That AD is being far overblown and misrepresented, its is a serial-number specific AD that impacts 11-specific engines and/or 14 serial number specific HPT rotors.
Without knowing the specific engine SN and which customers have them, you can't determine if any on any of DL's MD90s. If they are then yes that engine is done. However, this isn't something that every operator has to perform on every V2500 engine.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3139
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:47 pm

WN732 wrote:
There is a new emergency AD that was put out for the V2500 and the required compliance is before the end of April. You can see the full details by following the link:
https://news.aviation-safety.net/2020/0 ... n-vietnam/

It would appear to comprise of tremendous cost. And Delta does not have any other aircraft with V2500. I wouldn't imagine that they'd want to shell out the cost for such a small subfleet.

The AD is only for V2500 with specific p/n HPT discs. Since this was from the variant install on the A321, it may not include the MD90 variant.
 
WN732
Posts: 779
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
WN732 wrote:
There is a new emergency AD that was put out for the V2500 and the required compliance is before the end of April. You can see the full details by following the link:
https://news.aviation-safety.net/2020/0 ... n-vietnam/

It would appear to comprise of tremendous cost. And Delta does not have any other aircraft with V2500. I wouldn't imagine that they'd want to shell out the cost for such a small subfleet.

The AD is only for V2500 with specific p/n HPT discs. Since this was from the variant install on the A321, it may not include the MD90 variant.


The D5 is mentioned specifically but the post above mentioned that it is limited to 11 serial numbers. After further review though, it doesn't specify which airplanes those serials belong to. The odds are pretty slim that they ended up with Delta though.
 
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lightsaber
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Topic Author
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:56 pm

WN732 wrote:
There is a new emergency AD that was put out for the V2500 and the required compliance is before the end of April. You can see the full details by following the link:
https://news.aviation-safety.net/2020/0 ... n-vietnam/

It would appear to comprise of tremendous cost. And Delta does not have any other aircraft with V2500. I wouldn't imagine that they'd want to shell out the cost for such a small subfleet.

Your link notes a subset of turbine rotors. Any V2500D5 with one of those rotors will be grounded. This isn't every V2500. In fact, extreamly unlikely a V2500D5 has one of the effected rotors.

This is ongoing:
"The FAA is ordering removal, within five flight cycles, of certain first-stage high-pressure turbine disks – bearing particular part and serial numbers – fitted to various models of V2500 engine."

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/a32 ... 58.article

A couple years ago CFM-56 had a similar AD for Fans:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -turbofans

One for CFM turbine cases:
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... enDocument

ADs aren't for the faint of heart nor those who over-interpret. They are precise down to serial numbers.

Please look at the exact AD for the V2500. The scope is limited to 14 turbine rotors.

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... enDocument

That is 14 out of 5700 engines.

https://www.bloomberg.com/press-release ... tm-engines

We can agree any V2500D5 with a bad rotor is done.
With a 0.25% chance per engine (rounded up), there is a 15% chance one Delta V2500D5 has a bad rotor. This isn't why the MD-90 fleet will be grounded.

Please take time to find and search for the applicability of an AD.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
Northwest1988
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:02 pm

Social media gossiping is saying the MD-88/90 will be retired before the end of April. Anyone have any more info more than rumors?
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:43 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
Social media gossiping is saying the MD-88/90 will be retired before the end of April. Anyone have any more info more than rumors?


A few quick dummy bookings in the beginning and end of May still show the MD88 in the schedule but it is such a fluid situation it might change so who knows
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8060
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:45 pm

I had thought the just recently awarded May bid package (as of last week) still had lines of MD88/90 flying for the pilot base in ATL. Granted, not a lot of flying but some.
Doesn't mean they couldn't just cancel it all any pay the crews not to fly but take it for what its worth.
 
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DL717
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:21 pm

Lootess wrote:
Back to business, 2 more MD-88s going to BYH tomorrow. That'll put us at about 24 active.

I think it's really 8 MD90 active though. Will they make May 1. Likely not.


My brother in law just flew his last flight last week. He's burning in his vacation time and riding off into the sunset. He's a DL MD90 driver who isn't in denial. Said this is one aviation dumpster fire to many for his 30 year career and doesn't want to stay around for the inevitable.
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