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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:53 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Yes, Jet Fuel is low. The question for me is wich long lasting impact has the global warming and Corona to our planet ? These gas guzzler are not the future of our children , isn`t it ?


If you're worried about a few MD-88s being flown to their next heavy checks or the end of December, whichever comes first, you really need to study worldwide sources of CO2 emissions. This isn't even on the order of 0.01%.

I would add the drop in global oil consumption will provide an interesting data point on global warming.

This downturn will result in many old aircraft retired.

Coronavirus is a step down in carbon production. But the big impact is the slowdown of coal consumption at powerplants.

So ignore AvGeeks curious infatuation with a 3 generation prior design.

Lightsaber
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micstatic
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:43 pm

well it's official. Per their 10-k this morning. All MD-88's permanently retired by July
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
FlyingViking
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:47 pm

micstatic wrote:
well it's official. Per their 10-k this morning. All MD-88's permanently retired by July


Any word on the MD90's?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:55 pm

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 1de63e.pdf

The word id 'no word' per the 10-Q. Emphasis mine:

As part of our capacity reductions related to the negative effect on our business from the COVID-19 pandemic, we have removed approximately 400 aircraft
from active service and plan to park another approximately 250 aircraft during the June 2020 quarter. These aircraft are being temporarily parked, with the
exception of the MD-88 fleet discussed above for which an impairment charge of $22 million was recorded, and we have not yet decided to accelerate the
retirement of any other fleet
.
 
Favre4
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0000027904/c966782d-775f-40d9-a265-8a93121de63e.pdf

The word id 'no word' per the 10-Q. Emphasis mine:

As part of our capacity reductions related to the negative effect on our business from the COVID-19 pandemic, we have removed approximately 400 aircraft
from active service and plan to park another approximately 250 aircraft during the June 2020 quarter. These aircraft are being temporarily parked, with the
exception of the MD-88 fleet discussed above for which an impairment charge of $22 million was recorded, and we have not yet decided to accelerate the
retirement of any other fleet
.


Reducing capacity as described above to align with expected demand, which has resulted in temporarily parking approximately 400 aircraft as of
March 31, 2020, with the expectation to have over 650 aircraft parked by the end of the June quarter. As a result, we have made the decision to accelerate
the retirement of our MD-88 fleet from December 2020 to the end of July 2020
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:11 pm

I figured they would make it public on the MD88 today, was already heading to retirement well before plan. Considering only 9 active MD90s and 27 MD90s, hard to believe the 90s would make it to summer anyway.

To shed 250 more aircraft after they already parked all the A320s, and 50% of the 717s that probably means parking almost all of the 739/757/A321s, save for some transcon and high density routes. The airline could look like babybuses for awhile with A220s/A319s.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:11 pm

Are the pilot groups common to MD-88/MD-90? Can MD-90/717 be common? If not, one could expect the permanent retirement of MD-90s to follow the -88s very quickly. I doesn't make sense to maintain a pilot group for ten narrowbody aircraft (planespotters.net today) when they've got surplus of every subfleet.

DL is going to be paying contracted minimum hours to thousands of pilots sitting at home this summer. It really isn't going to matter if MD-88 pilots are a little overrepresented in that bunch.
 
tjerome
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Are the pilot groups common to MD-88/MD-90? Can MD-90/717 be common? If not, one could expect the permanent retirement of MD-90s to follow the -88s very quickly. I doesn't make sense to maintain a pilot group for ten narrowbody aircraft (planespotters.net today) when they've got surplus of every subfleet.

DL is going to be paying contracted minimum hours to thousands of pilots sitting at home this summer. It really isn't going to matter if MD-88 pilots are a little overrepresented in that bunch.


MD-88/90 are flown by the same pilot group... 717 is a different group. Rumor is going around in a different thread that DL is trying to send off the 717s as well.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:43 pm

[quote="MIflyer12"]https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0000027904/c966782d-775f-40d9-a265-8a93121de63e.pdf

The word id 'no word' per the 10-Q. Emphasis mine:

As part of our capacity reductions related to the negative effect on our business from the COVID-19 pandemic, we have removed approximately 400 aircraft
from active service and plan to park another approximately 250 aircraft during the June 2020 quarter. These aircraft are being temporarily parked, with the
exception of the MD-88 fleet discussed above for which an impairment charge of $22 million was recorded, and we have not yet decided to accelerate the
retirement of any other fleet
.
[/quo[color=#FFFF00]
[/color]

The another paragraph in the 10k it was mentioned that they might consider retiring other fleet types. As it stands now, Delta now classifies all 19 of the MD88's recently stored at BYH as "wfu" and have officially exited the fleet. I imagine we will see the 14 MD90's stored at BYH and QRO get offiically "wfu" soon, too. This leaves 27 MD88's and 10 MD90's listed as "active" (1 addditional MD88 & 2 MD90's are listed as just "stored"). I would not be surprised to see one, big "retirement party" for both types by the end of June, or early July. This also gives the salvage/storage contractor at BYH time to chop-up some more MD88's & 90's to make room for the last of them.
 
WN732
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:35 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0000027904/c966782d-775f-40d9-a265-8a93121de63e.pdf

The word id 'no word' per the 10-Q. Emphasis mine:

As part of our capacity reductions related to the negative effect on our business from the COVID-19 pandemic, we have removed approximately 400 aircraft
from active service and plan to park another approximately 250 aircraft during the June 2020 quarter. These aircraft are being temporarily parked, with the
exception of the MD-88 fleet discussed above for which an impairment charge of $22 million was recorded, and we have not yet decided to accelerate the
retirement of any other fleet
.
[/quo[color=#FFFF00]
[/color]

The another paragraph in the 10k it was mentioned that they might consider retiring other fleet types. As it stands now, Delta now classifies all 19 of the MD88's recently stored at BYH as "wfu" and have officially exited the fleet. I imagine we will see the 14 MD90's stored at BYH and QRO get offiically "wfu" soon, too. This leaves 27 MD88's and 10 MD90's listed as "active" (1 addditional MD88 & 2 MD90's are listed as just "stored"). I would not be surprised to see one, big "retirement party" for both types by the end of June, or early July. This also gives the salvage/storage contractor at BYH time to chop-up some more MD88's & 90's to make room for the last of them.


With restrictions loosening (slowly in many places), it looks like it's time to book one last trip.
 
DALMD80
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:28 pm

Lootess wrote:
I figured they would make it public on the MD88 today, was already heading to retirement well before plan. Considering only 9 active MD90s and 27 MD90s, hard to believe the 90s would make it to summer anyway.

To shed 250 more aircraft after they already parked all the A320s, and 50% of the 717s that probably means parking almost all of the 739/757/A321s, save for some transcon and high density routes. The airline could look like babybuses for awhile with A220s/A319s.

I'd be fine with seeing more A220s... more efficient, plus a type not too many of use have seen, AFAIK.
Farewell to the Mad Dogs- the first week of June 2020 will be remembered by most of us here on A.net as the day the Mad Dogs left.
 
Boof02671
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:53 pm

MD88s gone in July. 90s some time later

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... d-90-exit/
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
MD88s gone in July. 90s some time later

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... d-90-exit/



Already discussed up thread
 
727LOVER
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:06 pm

ACA772LR wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
MD88s gone in July. 90s some time later

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... d-90-exit/



Already discussed up thread

Yeah...well the juicy nugget in that article is that there are still 27 MD-90s on property
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
WN732
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:38 pm

I'm glad we finally have a realistic idea. Hopefully we'll find out some real dates soon. It should also be noted that the 717 was not even mentioned.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:05 am

I am guessing Forbes just repackaged what was said in the Q1 results earlier this week and had no other better or official source. That article doesn’t say anything we didn’t already know.

Of course no one is going to acknowledge the 717 rumor or lack there of. Companies just don’t comment on these things and a publication like Forbes can’t just go with 4th person rumor as a source.
 
ACA772LR
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:14 am

727LOVER wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
MD88s gone in July. 90s some time later

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... d-90-exit/



Already discussed up thread

Yeah...well the juicy nugget in that article is that there are still 27 MD-90s on property


I didn’t even see that haha wow thanks for pointing that out
 
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September11
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:35 am

Boof02671 wrote:
MD88s gone in July


I experienced a MD88 flight early last month, not knowing MD88s will be gone sooner than expected. Aircraft was in good condition.
Airliners.net of the Future
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:40 am

ACA772LR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:


Already discussed up thread

Yeah...well the juicy nugget in that article is that there are still 27 MD-90s on property


I didn’t even see that haha wow thanks for pointing that out


Actually, a lot of those are off property - in Blytheville, Arkansas. https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:52 pm

More sad news.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
Lootess
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:16 pm

This was the latest from Ed on the earnings call when an analyst asked about biggest changes to the fleet:

Ed: "Well, certainly, anything that was scheduled to retire over the next five years has an accelerated path towards
retirement, just to be very simple and straightforward. The MD-80s were already retiring this year, so that's done.
The MD-90s, we'll probably be making that decision soon in a similar vein. We have 767s, 757s, there's some of
the older models that we operate. We'll certainly be looking at the RJs, the smaller RJs that we operate. But we'll
be taking the time to, as I say, accelerate into the future and fast forwarding many of these decisions with
simplification and streamlining of our entire business model at the core of the new normal for Delta. Many of the
things that we were on a path to do, I think we shortened that pathway considerably as a result of this crisis."
 
amdiesen
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Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:56 pm

    Opinion

    datum: post covid: capital will be king; opportunities will exceed available capital; new aircraft purchasing will be secondary
    datum: Delta is now over ordered based on near/mid-term demand
    datam: suppliers will re-enter the market under a new regime
    datam: evolution and the implementation of innovation will continue at an increasing rate (ie: purchase procrastination has a short-term cost, but a long term gain in that acquisitions are made on next generation tech for a ~22 year asset)
    common knowledge: MD90s are low-cost of capital, and have a comparatively lower cycle impact cost (cycle beasts)
    hypothesis: its likely that the middle seat will have a temporary regulatory restraint on sales; disproportionately effecting 757 economics.
    hypothesis: order delay mechanisms (new aircraft) will be structured and be a common-place industry practice (near-term)
    hypothesis: Anet has argued that the 757 has comparatively increasing maintenance costs; esp on the far side of industry expected economic life (~22 years).
    opinion: average fleet age has been mis-understood, within the context of a demand-elastic industry and capital management in a fat-tail event
    opinion: 'there is too much V2500 overhaul available IMHO' Lightsaber. (yes the MD90 differences are significant)
    datam: turning off an oil well generally involves filling the hole with ~concrete. Re-starting a well takes time. Expect significant oil price volatility over the next few years. Think of an oil well as binary (versus having flow control) in many cases.


    Delta should explore the appetite and economics of the supply chains willingness to support the MD-90 under the new aero-economic regime. In the Covid/post-covid world its a new question. Delta has significant cycle heavy/short-hour needs. The MD-90 now fits where the 199 seat 757 has become both to-much-aircraft and its economic dynamics have shifted. They are now lean in the 120-160 seat segment and fat in the 180-200 seat segment.
    Respects that this record has been overplayed on the board. In the new era the question deserves revisiting. Two thoughts; talented airline staff are currently under-utilized; if the answer is yes there is more work, if the answer is no the decision makers have more data to make retirement decisions. Ancillary opinion, I think techOps is going to take a hard look at the PW2000.
     
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    lightsaber
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    Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

    Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:30 pm

    amdiesen wrote:
      Opinion

      datum: post covid: capital will be king; opportunities will exceed available capital; new aircraft purchasing will be secondary
      datum: Delta is now over ordered based on near/mid-term demand
      datam: suppliers will re-enter the market under a new regime
      datam: evolution and the implementation of innovation will continue at an increasing rate (ie: purchase procrastination has a short-term cost, but a long term gain in that acquisitions are made on next generation tech for a ~22 year asset)
      common knowledge: MD90s are low-cost of capital, and have a comparatively lower cycle impact cost (cycle beasts)
      hypothesis: its likely that the middle seat will have a temporary regulatory restraint on sales; disproportionately effecting 757 economics.
      hypothesis: order delay mechanisms (new aircraft) will be structured and be a common-place industry practice (near-term)
      hypothesis: Anet has argued that the 757 has comparatively increasing maintenance costs; esp on the far side of industry expected economic life (~22 years).
      opinion: average fleet age has been mis-understood, within the context of a demand-elastic industry and capital management in a fat-tail event
      opinion: 'there is too much V2500 overhaul available IMHO' Lightsaber. (yes the MD90 differences are significant)
      datam: turning off an oil well generally involves filling the hole with ~concrete. Re-starting a well takes time. Expect significant oil price volatility over the next few years. Think of an oil well as binary (versus having flow control) in many cases.


      Delta should explore the appetite and economics of the supply chains willingness to support the MD-90 under the new aero-economic regime. In the Covid/post-covid world its a new question. Delta has significant cycle heavy/short-hour needs. The MD-90 now fits where the 199 seat 757 has become both to-much-aircraft and its economic dynamics have shifted. They are now lean in the 120-160 seat segment and fat in the 180-200 seat segment.
      Respects that this record has been overplayed on the board. In the new era the question deserves revisiting. Two thoughts; talented airline staff are currently under-utilized; if the answer is yes there is more work, if the answer is no the decision makers have more data to make retirement decisions. Ancillary opinion, I think techOps is going to take a hard look at the PW2000.

      The need to cut costs now is extreme. DL luckily has limited new orders that could be pushed out.

      Delta squeezed the costs out of vendor supply chains so much they burned the MD-90 opportunity. There is only one engine shop supporting the V2500D5. The other shops stopped supporting DL bid off too little business between 3 shops and 2 decided enough! DL is a 600 pound gorilla in engine overhaul, but there just aren't enough V2500D5 out there for DL to economically overhaul. DL's overhauls need outside work.

      The 757 does require more maintenance, even before high utilization. In the down-selection, cut what cost can be.

      DL will park for 2 or 3 years newer aircraft. They need to park 30% to 50% of the fleet.

      As to your theory of limited capital, we're talking 2023 or 2024. Airfares will go back up.

      Keeping aircraft flyable has a cost. That is cheaper on readily supported aircraft.

      On the other side, I see a need for more A220. I see Airbus and Boeing competing for any order, with financing.

      Unfortunately, the MD-88s are done. The MD-90s have horrid vendor costs. That won't improve. The question quickly becomes, what has happened to 717 costs. Economy of scale matters.

      Lightsaber
      IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
       
      amdiesen
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:07 pm

      lightsaber wrote:
      The need to cut costs now is extreme. DL luckily has limited new orders that could be pushed out.

      Delta squeezed the costs out of vendor supply chains so much they burned the MD-90 opportunity. There is only one engine shop supporting the V2500D5. The other shops stopped supporting DL bid off too little business between 3 shops and 2 decided enough! DL is a 600 pound gorilla in engine overhaul, but there just aren't enough V2500D5 out there for DL to economically overhaul. DL's overhauls need outside work.

      The 757 does require more maintenance, even before high utilization. In the down-selection, cut what cost can be.

      DL will park for 2 or 3 years newer aircraft. They need to park 30% to 50% of the fleet.

      Keeping aircraft flyable has a cost. That is cheaper on readily supported aircraft.

      On the other side, I see a need for more A220. I see Airbus and Boeing competing for any order, with financing.

      Unfortunately, the MD-88s are done. The MD-90s have horrid vendor costs. That won't improve. The question quickly becomes, what has happened to 717 costs. Economy of scale matters.
      Lightsaber

      Understood. The theme has been effectively communicated over the years as many lament the demise of their favored mad-dogs. However, except for a few fanatics, most customers whom have entered a transaction to get a valued experience would pipe "Good riddance to the long overdue MD88s. #$%& why did they wait so long?"

      The thesis has changed. Vendors will look at the abyss of no work and economic survival; building for the MD90 and partnering with Delta would be embraced from a new lens.

      'Economy of scale matters.'; agreed; however, pre-covid this had become over-emphazied as a mantra. When placed in today's perspective it's necessary(for survival) to think outside of the box versus being boxed in.

      Purchasing more(capital expense & additional monthly payments) A220s to replace (paid for)mid-life 717s in an effort to save with economies of scale? Your swatting at flies and swallowing camels Mr Lightsaber :). 'tip-hat icon'
       
      MIflyer12
      Posts: 7779
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:42 pm

      amdiesen wrote:
      Two thoughts; talented airline staff are currently under-utilized


      Are you suggesting they will now be willing to work much more cheaply? In the U.S., Canada, or Western Europe? Hah, hah, hah, hah, hah.

      DL is going to have plenty of A320 and 738 capacity to handle midsize narrowbody flying for several years. If the market comes back robustly in years 3-5, they'll want the 321neos on order, and maybe some MAX8s, too. If it doesn't, they'll be happy keeping 717s and receiving A220s. Just a week ago DL acknowledged it didn't have firm agreements for new aircraft deferrals. As of the beginning of 2020, they had 204 new aircraft committed for '20-22.
       
      KMCOFlyer
      Posts: 229
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:55 pm

      Another important fact that people are forgetting is the FAA ordered DL a few years ago to replace the Zodiac Slimline seats found on the 717 and MD-90 by 2022. Before COVID-19 hit, DLs plans were to retire the MD-90 instead by 2022 (the seat issues probably had something to do with it) and there were reports floating around last year that DL would mod the 717s and add PTVs into the new seats. Now that we are in the age of COVID-19, there have been reports floating around that DL would rather accelerate MD-90 retirements (from the Q1 earnings report) and ditch the 717s (from various sources in the media) which all make since as I can’t see DL wanting to spend a lot on expensive cabin mods in the near term future which they will be required to do if they keep the 717 or MD-90 past 2022.

      https://www.ajc.com/business/faa-requir ... Mz541qddJ/
       
      MIflyer12
      Posts: 7779
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:00 pm

      Are you suggesting that seat replacements for 91 717 aircraft are, in any way, comparable in cost to 91 new aircraft?
       
      KMCOFlyer
      Posts: 229
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:12 pm

      MIflyer12 wrote:
      Are you suggesting that seat replacements for 91 717 aircraft are, in any way, comparable in cost to 91 new aircraft?


      No but the plan would allow DL to get rid of the the 717s (almost all of them are leased directly from Boeing) which they could shed payments on preserving cash in return for a future 737 MAX order which wouldn’t arrive until ~2023 at the earliest in which at that point, demand would hopefully be back up. With the 717s needing major upcoming work anyway, it could make this decision easier for them to make.
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:43 pm

      amdiesen wrote:

      'Economy of scale matters.'; agreed; however, pre-covid this had become over-emphazied as a mantra. When placed in today's perspective it's necessary(for survival) to think outside of the box versus being boxed in.

      Purchasing more(capital expense) A220s to replace (paid for)mid-life 717s in an effort to save with economies of scale? Your swatting at flies and swallowing camels Mr Lightsaber :). 'tip-hat icon'

      The A220 would be for after yield improves. I think DL will get exceptional terms if they have demand for higher utilization. The delivery will be 2023 or later. There are three years of survival in between. If the vendor supply chain could be frozen, you have a case.

      The 717 shares many parts that are common to the DC-9/MD-80. After this year, who is ordering the seals and such?

      I worked the vendor supply chain, it isn't a mantra for economy of scale but a life blood. The 737 and A320 are gaining 3D printed parts because that is cheaper for new production, which supplies cheaper spares. Old school every doubling of production cut costs 10% per unit every time production was doubled. It us now 13%.

      It just isn't possible to rebuild MD-90 components as cheaply as modern. Ok, the engines are cheaper per overhaul, but last I looked needed 2.5X as many overhauls. CFM-56 Turbine blades have been copied by Pratt, reducing part costs. There are many shops competing on that overhaul including Delta.

      If Delta is worried about cheap lift, buy used A319 and A320 as the recovery starts. 717s are cheap, but not really needed and all parts just went up in price.

      You are right on that I cannot prescribe the exact solution for DL They have a history of figuring out amazingly economical solutions.

      They themselves said every type slated for retirement in 5 years is being looked at. Will DL keep the 717 flight sims and evacuation trainers? Everything has certification costs.

      It wouldn't surprise me to see MD-90s used for green time as long as enough of a subfleet is flyable. My back of the envelope math has 17 as the minimum long term subfleet.

      That is taking into account all the spares such as slides and evacuation cable reels (or does the 717 get away with rope being so low to the ground?).

      I hope the 717s remain, but this is all about short term cash flow.

      Lightsaber
      IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
       
      amdiesen
      Posts: 114
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      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:55 pm

      MIflyer12 wrote:
      amdiesen wrote:
      Two thoughts; talented airline staff are currently under-utilized

      "Are you suggesting they will now be willing to work 'for less over the near term'? In the U.S., Canada, or Western Europe?" yes
      "Hah, hah, hah, hah, hah." :)... tip hat

      "the market comes back robustly in years 3-5," no
      "they'll want the 321neos on order," yes
      "and maybe some MAX8s" no
      "If it doesn't, they'll be happy keeping 717s and receiving A220s." yes
      "DL acknowledged it didn't have firm agreements for new aircraft deferrals. ..they had 204 new aircraft committed for '20-22." thank you, 'tip hat icon'
      "204 new aircraft 'will be accepted in' '20-22" no

      KMCOFlyer wrote:
      Another important fact that people are forgetting is the FAA ordered DL a few years ago to replace the Zodiac Slimline seats found on the 717 and MD-90 by 2022. Before COVID-19 hit, DLs plans were to retire the MD-90 instead by 2022 (the seat issues probably had something to do with it) and there were reports floating around last year that DL would mod the 717s and add PTVs into the new seats. ...
      https://www.ajc.com/business/faa-requir ... Mz541qddJ/

      thank you 'tip hat icon'

      lightsaber wrote:
      The 737 and A320 are gaining 3D printed parts because that is cheaper for new production, which supplies cheaper spares. Ok, the engines are cheaper per overhaul, but last I looked needed 2.5X as many overhauls. I hope the 717s remain, but this is all about short term cash flow.
      Lightsaber

      thank you, 'tip-hat icon'

      Would you consider?... If I was a pilot, mechanic, airline professional in the middle of my career there would be a significant thought theme to be considered. I would appreciate that the industry had gone through a period of comparative prosperity over the last several years. There would be a bemoaning thought of the load of sh!t that covid just dumped on the runway. But you have to ask yourself, are you in a marathon? There are really two paths; the first (leadership) path is what can I do for the myself/company; re-certify, certify on a new aircraft, lead a maintenance project, replace bad seats on a parked plane... (Respects that union/other rules inhibit activities/flexibility, there are times of crisis when rules need to be relaxed for the overall good.) What is certain/permanent is that you left 110% of yourself on the field during the darkest moments.
      The second, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp6fiXarP5U (truck master)


      The medical hypothesis is that this coming winter will be covid worse than than 2020; with an optimism that we will environmentally adapt.

      "an MD90 life-extension is overly optimistic? perhaps retiring the MD95 is tilting pessimistic?" for your consideration: yes & yes
       
      Dalmd88
      Posts: 3131
      Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:12 pm

      MD90 and the 717 are the next to go. The seat issue is a huge cost right now. There is ZERO capital spending for the foreseeable future. And when it comes back seats for those two fleets will not be at the front of the line. Engine costs for the V2500D5 is not going to come down. Those other shops that gave up the work have moved on. I would bet they might have scrapped all the tooling already.

      We will see some retirements out of the 76/757 fleet and I bet some of the A320 fleet goes also. Not necessarily the oldest just the older ones that have heavy check coming up. You may see some come back on line this fall for a few months to use up green time and then exit.
       
      User avatar
      lightsaber
      Moderator
      Topic Author
      Posts: 19743
      Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:43 pm

      KMCOFlyer wrote:
      Another important fact that people are forgetting is the FAA ordered DL a few years ago to replace the Zodiac Slimline seats found on the 717 and MD-90 by 2022. Before COVID-19 hit, DLs plans were to retire the MD-90 instead by 2022 (the seat issues probably had something to do with it) and there were reports floating around last year that DL would mod the 717s and add PTVs into the new seats. Now that we are in the age of COVID-19, there have been reports floating around that DL would rather accelerate MD-90 retirements (from the Q1 earnings report) and ditch the 717s (from various sources in the media) which all make since as I can’t see DL wanting to spend a lot on expensive cabin mods in the near term future which they will be required to do if they keep the 717 or MD-90 past 2022.

      https://www.ajc.com/business/faa-requir ... Mz541qddJ/

      I personally completely forgot about the seat issue. Probably because only a minor change in MD-90 retirement and previously not huge for the 717.

      Oh, this complicates everything. Not a death sentence for the 717, but certainly circumstantial evidence to an earlier retirement.

      What matters is the current lease terms. Delta accepted the first 717 in 2013. What was the lease duration (I couldn't find any good links).

      The economy of scale is much worse post MD-88/90. I thought the 717 had a role. But if new seats are required... Maybe buy low cost new seats without many features?

      Ugh, Convid19 threw everything up in the air.

      We know MD-88s disappear in July. We know DL is accelerating all retirements that were previously within 5 years.

      I really believe this will depend on the terms for new aircraft. I could see a mixed A230 and MAX order to replace. Note: I do not think Airbus would match the other offers. But only if TechOps gained rights to service the LEAP-1B and I'm certain DL would stall negotiations a bit for -1A overhaul rights to give the shop more volume.

      Oh, we only thought the Delta/Boeing/Southwest/RR deal for 717s was complex. This Delta/Boeing/CFM deal could be interesting. Or it might not happen.

      Lightsaber
      IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
       
      jmscsc
      Posts: 76
      Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:09 pm

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:40 am

      With the MD-88 heading out by the end of July I am glad that my BDL-ATL flight in a few weeks was switched to one as my last chance to fly on her.
       
      JayinKitsap
      Posts: 2166
      Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:16 am

      lightsaber wrote:
      KMCOFlyer wrote:
      Another important fact that people are forgetting is the FAA ordered DL a few years ago to replace the Zodiac Slimline seats found on the 717 and MD-90 by 2022. Before COVID-19 hit, DLs plans were to retire the MD-90 instead by 2022 (the seat issues probably had something to do with it) and there were reports floating around last year that DL would mod the 717s and add PTVs into the new seats. Now that we are in the age of COVID-19, there have been reports floating around that DL would rather accelerate MD-90 retirements (from the Q1 earnings report) and ditch the 717s (from various sources in the media) which all make since as I can’t see DL wanting to spend a lot on expensive cabin mods in the near term future which they will be required to do if they keep the 717 or MD-90 past 2022.

      https://www.ajc.com/business/faa-requir ... Mz541qddJ/

      I personally completely forgot about the seat issue. Probably because only a minor change in MD-90 retirement and previously not huge for the 717.

      Oh, this complicates everything. Not a death sentence for the 717, but certainly circumstantial evidence to an earlier retirement.

      What matters is the current lease terms. Delta accepted the first 717 in 2013. What was the lease duration (I couldn't find any good links).

      The economy of scale is much worse post MD-88/90. I thought the 717 had a role. But if new seats are required... Maybe buy low cost new seats without many features?

      Ugh, Convid19 threw everything up in the air.

      We know MD-88s disappear in July. We know DL is accelerating all retirements that were previously within 5 years.

      I really believe this will depend on the terms for new aircraft. I could see a mixed A230 and MAX order to replace. Note: I do not think Airbus would match the other offers. But only if TechOps gained rights to service the LEAP-1B and I'm certain DL would stall negotiations a bit for -1A overhaul rights to give the shop more volume.

      Oh, we only thought the Delta/Boeing/Southwest/RR deal for 717s was complex. This Delta/Boeing/CFM deal could be interesting. Or it might not happen.

      Lightsaber


      Delta really doesn't want planes right now, Boeing could use the 717 leases as a trade for a MAX order, getting DL on board with it. An order for 10 with options for 90 where DL is basically picking up orphans at steep discount would not be a bad strategy.

      Right now DL has no outstanding orders from Boeing, just from Airbus. It is far harder to get a reduction in price on an order one already has, than to get its competitor to do a fire sale event. Also, DL has purchased used many a frame, with the MX costs going up for the 717 it is possible a 737-700 or -800 might have lower trip costs.
       
      KMCOFlyer
      Posts: 229
      Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:00 am

      According to the DL Flyertalk thread on the same topic, the following aircraft will be ferried to BYH over the next two days:

      MD-88:
      - N905DL
      - N979DL
      - N990DL
      - N911DE

      MD-90:
      - N922DX
      - N926DH
      - N934DN
      - N960DN
      - N962DN
       
      PSU.DTW.SCE
      Posts: 7942
      Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:18 am

      The most unceremonious retirements ever.

      The DL we knew prior to mid-March 2020 is dead. Not sure what shape or form this airline or industry resurrects itself to be.
       
      danipawa
      Posts: 432
      Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:35 pm

      MD Douglas MD88 49967 2037 N911DE Delta Air Lines ferried 29apr20 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap (+ 53266/1859 N979DL, + 53342/1939 N990DE, + 49536/1348 N905DL )

      https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
       
      KMCOFlyer
      Posts: 229
      Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:42 pm

      The only remaining MD-90 routes left on the schedule that I could find in May appear to be ATL-IAH and ATL-BUF. Routes like ATL-IAD/SDF/HSV/ECP appear to switch to either a 717 or MD-88 for May.
       
      WN732
      Posts: 758
      Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:42 pm

      danipawa wrote:
      MD Douglas MD88 49967 2037 N911DE Delta Air Lines ferried 29apr20 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap (+ 53266/1859 N979DL, + 53342/1939 N990DE, + 49536/1348 N905DL )

      https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4


      N905DL was also the last of the original MD-82's that were converted to MD-88.
       
      User avatar
      FLALEFTY
      Posts: 732
      Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:57 pm

      KMCOFlyer wrote:
      According to the DL Flyertalk thread on the same topic, the following aircraft will be ferried to BYH over the next two days:

      MD-88:
      - N905DL
      - N979DL
      - N990DL
      - N911DE

      MD-90:
      - N922DX
      - N926DH
      - N934DN
      - N960DN
      - N962DN


      Yep! The 4 additional MD88's are now at their BYH "rest home". The 5 additional MD90's head to BYH tomorrow.

      https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH
       
      miguel0881
      Posts: 122
      Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:13 pm

      So anyone have a count of how many, and which, MD-88s are left at this point? At this rate, will they even make it to July? Thinking I may need to hop on one soon before they all go away.
       
      KMCOFlyer
      Posts: 229
      Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:27 pm

      miguel0881 wrote:
      So anyone have a count of how many, and which, MD-88s are left at this point? At this rate, will they even make it to July? Thinking I may need to hop on one soon before they all go away.


      Looks like the latest count shows 23 MD-88s left and 5 MD-90s after 4 more leave tomorrow. The MD-88s might make it to July, but I doubt the MD-90s make it much longer, even with DL management not putting a timeline on their retirement yet. The only remaining MD-90 routes I see in May are ATL-IAH and ATL-BUF.
       
      727LOVER
      Posts: 8614
      Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:45 pm

      miguel0881 wrote:
      So anyone have a count of how many, and which, MD-88s are left at this point? At this rate, will they even make it to July? Thinking I may need to hop on one soon before they all go away.


      not ALL of them...but here are some

      N901DE
      N902DE
      N903DE
      N905DE
      N906DE
      N907DE
      N908DE
      N910DE
      N912DE
      N915DE
      N916DL
      N917DL
      N976DL
      N978DL
      "We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
       
      n515cr
      Posts: 1772
      Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:59 pm

      727LOVER wrote:
      miguel0881 wrote:
      So anyone have a count of how many, and which, MD-88s are left at this point? At this rate, will they even make it to July? Thinking I may need to hop on one soon before they all go away.


      not ALL of them...but here are some

      N901DE
      N902DE
      N903DE
      N905DE
      N906DE
      N907DE
      N908DE
      N910DE
      N912DE
      N915DE
      N916DL
      N917DL
      N976DL
      N978DL

      N912DL 912
      N913DL 913
      N916DL 916
      N917DL 917
      N966DL 966
      N970DL 970
      N971DL 971
      N972DL 972
      N974DL 974
      N976DL 976
      N978DL 978
      N995DL 995
      N900DE 9000
      N901DE 9001
      N902DE 9002
      N903DE 9003
      N905DE 9005
      N906DE 9006
      N907DE 9007
      N908DE 9008
      N910DE 9010
      N912DE 9012
      N915DE 9015
       
      miguel0881
      Posts: 122
      Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:23 pm

      n515cr wrote:
      727LOVER wrote:
      miguel0881 wrote:
      So anyone have a count of how many, and which, MD-88s are left at this point? At this rate, will they even make it to July? Thinking I may need to hop on one soon before they all go away.


      not ALL of them...but here are some

      N901DE
      N902DE
      N903DE
      N905DE
      N906DE
      N907DE
      N908DE
      N910DE
      N912DE
      N915DE
      N916DL
      N917DL
      N976DL
      N978DL

      N912DL 912
      N913DL 913
      N916DL 916
      N917DL 917
      N966DL 966
      N970DL 970
      N971DL 971
      N972DL 972
      N974DL 974
      N976DL 976
      N978DL 978
      N995DL 995
      N900DE 9000
      N901DE 9001
      N902DE 9002
      N903DE 9003
      N905DE 9005
      N906DE 9006
      N907DE 9007
      N908DE 9008
      N910DE 9010
      N912DE 9012
      N915DE 9015


      That makes 23. Thanks. Now to get on one of these before it's too late...
       
      n515cr
      Posts: 1772
      Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:41 pm

      9222 ferried to BYH
      9226 ferry cancelled
      9234 ferrying to BYH
      9260 ferried to BYH
      9262 ferried to BYH
       
      PSU.DTW.SCE
      Posts: 7942
      Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:12 pm

      The official retirement announcement - retire in June.
      https://news.delta.com/delta-retire-md- ... leets-june
       
      hsaviation
      Posts: 23
      Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:45 pm

      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The official retirement announcement - retire in June.
      https://news.delta.com/delta-retire-md- ... leets-june


      Both the -80s and -90s... :cry:
       
      brooklynchris13
      Posts: 294
      Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:11 am

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The official retirement announcement - retire in June.
      https://news.delta.com/delta-retire-md- ... leets-june


      I think the end of the press-release was equally interesting....
      "Delta continues to evaluate its broader fleet plan and will consider additional aircraft retirements to focus on a modern, more simplified fleet going forward."

      Will be very interesting to see what the fleet make up will be in 2021 and beyond if they make a serious run at fleet simplification given the variety they have.
      "Be the change you want to see in the world" (mg)
       
      MIflyer12
      Posts: 7779
      Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

      Re: DL retiring MD-80/90s quickly

      Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:52 pm

      Be on the lookout for the special charge/accelerated depreciation of MD-90 planes and parts.

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