Cactusjuba
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:23 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?


Yes. This is happening now. 4 MD88s that were supposed to be retired will be used in charter ops for NCAA sports. These agreements were with individual universities.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:55 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?


I highly doubt it. Between the maintenance supply chain drying up, and the cost of keeping a dedicated pilot group for low utilisation charter flying, it would not make economic sense.

If they were considering a dedicated charter sub-fleet then the early build A320s would be their best option. Common parts with the remainder of the fleet, no need for separate crew bids. Low utilisation means cycles wouldn't be a concern.


It’s been reported elsewhere by credible sources, so it’s likely the plan status quo. It may also extend to the 763ER. But DL won’t be creating a long-term subfleet, but rather it will merely be extending the life of aircraft that have been pulled from scheduled service. Nothing new here; DL did the same thing with numerous 757 and 763A. Basically, the planes are being kept around form months, not years.
 
Packson
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:38 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?


I highly doubt it. Between the maintenance supply chain drying up, and the cost of keeping a dedicated pilot group for low utilisation charter flying, it would not make economic sense.

If they were considering a dedicated charter sub-fleet then the early build A320s would be their best option. Common parts with the remainder of the fleet, no need for separate crew bids. Low utilisation means cycles wouldn't be a concern.


Delta is keeping 4 Md-88's around for NCAA charters. I suspect it will only be for 6-8 months.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:27 am

Look for something out of Atlanta. There are still many short-haul flights. Pick your flight times well on Atlanta - Daytona Beach and get an MD-88 in one direction and an MD-90 in the other.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:54 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.

With that I'm really going to piss some of you off again and say the 717 quickly follows the MD80/90 fleet out of the DL fleet. It's just my guess. I really see it as an orphan fleet that will go away. Yes, I'm well aware the BR engine is done in house. It doesn't bring in a ton of outside money. After 2020 I believe the bow wave of shop visits for this trails off. That space is very much needed for the PW GTF work which is one of the two future engines for DL.
.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:04 pm

747DREAM wrote:
Do any know what route or have an route list that DL MD still fly to? Trying to catch something for my birthday that’s about to come up for fun, before they are all gone. Trying to find the cheapest one, without breaking the bank. Sorry if I am on the wrong post.


Go to fr24.com and turn on a filter for aircraft “md88”. Should give you an idea of some options
 
FLLspotter747
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:41 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.

With that I'm really going to piss some of you off again and say the 717 quickly follows the MD80/90 fleet out of the DL fleet. It's just my guess. I really see it as an orphan fleet that will go away. Yes, I'm well aware the BR engine is done in house. It doesn't bring in a ton of outside money. After 2020 I believe the bow wave of shop visits for this trails off. That space is very much needed for the PW GTF work which is one of the two future engines for DL.
.



Doing some research appears to yield that Wichita is the longest MD-88 route (782 miles), and the furthest west the fleet goes. As for east I see PHL, north is YYZ, and south is MIA.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:51 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.

With that I'm really going to piss some of you off again and say the 717 quickly follows the MD80/90 fleet out of the DL fleet. It's just my guess. I really see it as an orphan fleet that will go away. Yes, I'm well aware the BR engine is done in house. It doesn't bring in a ton of outside money. After 2020 I believe the bow wave of shop visits for this trails off. That space is very much needed for the PW GTF work which is one of the two future engines for DL.
.

You add good insight. The 717 avionics are much newer. It will all depend on aircraft pricing. If DL is really going to accelerate expansion, than they cannot give up on the 717s soon.

I know this is opposite of what I posted months ago. On new information, DL expansion, as well as continued slow delivery of NEOs and the MAX issue, now is not the time to buy (unless say buying -9 MAX cheap). We should add DL was over-agressive in bringing down V2500 rebuild costs left them with such high prices that the MD-90 must be retired early. I suspect DL will let a glut of narrowbody aircraft build.

There is a large enough sub-fleet of 717s to support 2 or 3 pilot bases, so that economy of scale is met. What is hurt is the common parts bought (window seals, brakes, tires, and gear rebuilds).

I am not a believer that the 717 is long for service,but I do think 7+ years more. It is not the time to rapidly replace the 717 fleet.

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MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
You add good insight. The 717 avionics are much newer. It will all depend on aircraft pricing. If DL is really going to accelerate expansion, than they cannot give up on the 717s soon.

I know this is opposite of what I posted months ago. On new information, DL expansion, as well as continued slow delivery of NEOs and the MAX issue, now is not the time to buy (unless say buying -9 MAX cheap).


IMHO, DL's big orders are dependent on:

1. How fast they NEED, not want, to replace the 763s. That's going to be a lot of CAPEX.

2. Not just price but delivery positions on the types they want to buy.

3. How fast they want to grow. Their targets of 3% intl/4% domestic may look like too much in a recession.

4. Free cash flow, largely a function of profit. We can't expect AA to stay in LIFE ALERT mode for another five years: Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!

You mentioned MAX9s. I'm thinking of an order for MAX8s (with conversion rights to MAX10s as a hedge to replace 752s) within six months of return to flight. There's a big gap in seat count between 223s and 321Neos. I think they will want something more than 738s and a bunch of old 320s (after MD-88s, the oldest subfleet at DL: older than the MD-90s or 763s) in that midsize narrowbody segment. (Don't even mention an A220-500: it's an airplane that doesn't exist and without an infrastructure to build it in quantity. Look out 3-5 years and see how modest are the announced A220 plans for Mirabel and Mobile.)
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:07 pm

747DREAM wrote:
Do any know what route or have an route list that DL MD still fly to? Trying to catch something for my birthday that’s about to come up for fun, before they are all gone. Trying to find the cheapest one, without breaking the bank. Sorry if I am on the wrong post.

We still get MD88s & 90s all day here at MKE.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
777Mech
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:00 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?


I highly doubt it. Between the maintenance supply chain drying up, and the cost of keeping a dedicated pilot group for low utilisation charter flying, it would not make economic sense.

If they were considering a dedicated charter sub-fleet then the early build A320s would be their best option. Common parts with the remainder of the fleet, no need for separate crew bids. Low utilisation means cycles wouldn't be a concern.


It’s been reported elsewhere by credible sources, so it’s likely the plan status quo. It may also extend to the 763ER. But DL won’t be creating a long-term subfleet, but rather it will merely be extending the life of aircraft that have been pulled from scheduled service. Nothing new here; DL did the same thing with numerous 757 and 763A. Basically, the planes are being kept around form months, not years.


It's basically using the frames that are due to be retired because they aren't needed for the network, but still have some life left before a major check. There aren't any dedicated crews to operate these flights, Delta knows when these charters will operate so they can put them out to bid for all of the pilots just like the 757 fleet.
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:13 pm

Airfleets is lagging. 60 MD-80+29 MD-88 for DL:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

Others have speculated, I think DL will get the value they can. I see expansion continuing. Either DL grows or the other airlines with slack will take the growth. Sometime next year the time between maintenance will expire and only ADS-B aircraft should see a shop at this point.

There are just enough ADS-B aircraft to justify continued use until a heavy C or HMV.
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tnair1974
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:45 pm

Packson wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Take it for what it's worth, but an A&P who works for TechOps told me at a career fair in the last couple weeks that the rumor is DL may hold onto a few MD-88s for smaller charter ops (college teams) much as they did with the subfleet of 757s. Any truth to that?


I highly doubt it. Between the maintenance supply chain drying up, and the cost of keeping a dedicated pilot group for low utilisation charter flying, it would not make economic sense.

If they were considering a dedicated charter sub-fleet then the early build A320s would be their best option. Common parts with the remainder of the fleet, no need for separate crew bids. Low utilisation means cycles wouldn't be a concern.


Delta is keeping 4 Md-88's around for NCAA charters. I suspect it will only be for 6-8 months.


Has Delta wrapped up all MD-88 heavy checks? Does this include the 88s now temporarily parked at BHM and perhaps elsewhere?
 
DALMD80
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:34 am

I don't want to rush things, but we need to keep track of when the last flight will be. *Writing with tears in my eyes*
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:00 am

DALMD80 wrote:
I don't want to rush things, but we need to keep track of when the last flight will be. *Writing with tears in my eyes*

With a small number getting ADS-B, it wouldn't surprise me if c-checks (but not HMV) happen. I'm changing my opinion after DL's announcement on expansion and the relative low cost to keep the MD-88s for low utilization flying. Engine costs doom the MD-90s.

However, DL has stopped overhauling engines. Now AA and G4 had 'gokden engines' (engines with life). If would be possible to buy those cheap enough to run a small fleet into mid-2022.

After that, I give no hope to the MD-88s and only a small chance for ADS-B equipped aircraft. Would DL restart C-checks? I have no inside knowledge. But I know maintenance is off scrounged parts due to supply chain shutdown. Not even rebuilds are happening for parts not shared with the 717. It is possible, but unlikely after AA and G4 recent retirements, some part has become too dear.

The fact no date has been set is interesting.

Does DL still maintain the flight sims? There is a hard annual deadline. Although I expect them to run until within six months.

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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:30 am

The timing that we've been hearing (FWIW) is the MD88 will end scheduled passenger operations likely right after the holiday schedule in early-Jan 2021 and a few frames will stick around for charter ops through Spring 2021.

The fact the MD88 uses the same pilot pool as the MD90, and ATL only makes it a bit easier to have a "soft wind-down" of the fleet.
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:34 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The timing that we've been hearing (FWIW) is the MD88 will end scheduled passenger operations likely right after the holiday schedule in early-Jan 2021 and a few frames will stick around for charter ops through Spring 2021.

The fact the MD88 uses the same pilot pool as the MD90, and ATL only makes it a bit easier to have a "soft wind-down" of the fleet.

Due to the engine overhaul costs (yes, a problem of DL's own making), how much longer will the MD-90s last.

That timeframe seems short. I would expect, if overhaul life exists, to utilize the MD-88s through the busy summer season.

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DALMD80
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:00 pm

I really want to be on that last flight... whenever it may be.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
Northwest1988
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:20 pm

A Delta MD-88 reg. N990DL is currently flying from Riverside, CA to Killeen, TX. Positive it’s a military charter. As much as I love seeing the MD-88 in different places, this seems like an unusual aircraft choice given the locations. Won’t hear me complain though!
 
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2nd2none
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:05 am

Delta: Down to : 57 + 29 = 86 at Planespotters
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:14 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The timing that we've been hearing (FWIW) is the MD88 will end scheduled passenger operations likely right after the holiday schedule in early-Jan 2021 and a few frames will stick around for charter ops through Spring 2021.

The fact the MD88 uses the same pilot pool as the MD90, and ATL only makes it a bit easier to have a "soft wind-down" of the fleet.

That's an interesting observation but AA went from 26 to zero. Small subfleets are a scheduling inefficiency, and, with assigned seats, a substitution headache. I don't see Delta doing a NASA countdown: 3, 2, 1, zero.
 
DALMD80
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:24 am

2nd2none wrote:
Delta: Down to : 57 + 29 = 86 at Planespotters

Noooo!
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
DALMD80
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:25 am

2nd2none wrote:
Delta: Down to : 57 + 29 = 86 at Planespotters

Not on airfleets though. Strange.
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:25 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
2nd2none wrote:
Delta: Down to : 57 + 29 = 86 at Planespotters

Not on airfleets though. Strange.


They are usually always late.
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:29 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
2nd2none wrote:
Delta: Down to : 57 + 29 = 86 at Planespotters

Not on airfleets though. Strange.

Airfleets has a known lag. However, it is a great overall resource.

It has DL at 89, where there are (manually counting) 29 MD-90.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

DL must get down to ADS-B equipped aircraft within about two and a half months. As the MD-90 are scheduled to depart in 2022, I assume most have it. Someone upthread posted the number of MD-80s with ADS-B (I'm being lazy and not looking), so DL will get down to that quantity quickly.

Facinating. Doubly so as it was about 6 years ago that aftermarket support of the MD-80 officially ended. Oh, wear parts were kept under contract( window and door seals, tires, and brakes), but even part rebuilds ended. We are now at the point that I am not aware of any JT8D overhaul in 2019. Everything seems to be opperating off existing engines serving out their final duty life.

I recall Allegiant reporting a high quarterly expense in 2016 as they had to accelerate engine overhauls:

https://www.marketwatch.com/press-relea ... 2016-05-02

That didn't last long. It did boost maintenance expenses to $100k to $110k per aircraft per month.

In 2011 G4 bought 13 SAS MD-80s +12 engines only for the engines, I wonder where those engines are as they were all scheduled for overhaul, but used to avoid overhauling other JT8Ds:
https://m.aviationweek.com/awin/allegia ... 8d-engines

So there should be on the order of 50 to 100 engines rebuilt 2012 to 2016. Those will have a 5 to 7+ year life. How many does DL own? Nite, I am engine obsessed, it is quite possible landing gear or other parts are the limiting item as the whole MD-80 supply chain shut down.

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Spacepope
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:58 pm

Another retirement reported yesterday at https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

N959DL ferried up to BYH for scrap.
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2nd2none
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:03 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Another retirement reported yesterday at https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

N959DL ferried up to BYH for scrap.


Same retirement as reported above.
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:06 pm

2nd2none wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Another retirement reported yesterday at https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

N959DL ferried up to BYH for scrap.


Same retirement as reported above.


Source, can't find that reg mentioned, unless it's the nebulous one attributed to "planespotters"
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:45 pm

The last annual report had the A220 count received/on order at 90 although they boosted it to 95 in July 2019. That showed 2020 purchase commitments as:

12 220-100
6 220-300
27 321
16 321 neo

4 339
2 A350
8 CR9
 
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:15 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
A Delta MD-88 reg. N990DL is currently flying from Riverside, CA to Killeen, TX. Positive it’s a military charter. As much as I love seeing the MD-88 in different places, this seems like an unusual aircraft choice given the locations. Won’t hear me complain though!


There's a lot of activity out of GRK. At least three DL Mad Dogs (unless there's a reporting glitch), a UA 764, a Sierra Pacific 735 and an Allegiant 319. All to/from March AFB.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:
2nd2none wrote:
Delta: Down to : 57 + 29 = 86 at Planespotters

Not on airfleets though. Strange.

Airfleets has a known lag. However, it is a great overall resource.

It has DL at 89, where there are (manually counting) 29 MD-90.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

DL must get down to ADS-B equipped aircraft within about two and a half months. As the MD-90 are scheduled to depart in 2022, I assume most have it. Someone upthread posted the number of MD-80s with ADS-B (I'm being lazy and not looking), so DL will get down to that quantity quickly.

Facinating. Doubly so as it was about 6 years ago that aftermarket support of the MD-80 officially ended. Oh, wear parts were kept under contract( window and door seals, tires, and brakes), but even part rebuilds ended. We are now at the point that I am not aware of any JT8D overhaul in 2019. Everything seems to be opperating off existing engines serving out their final duty life.

I recall Allegiant reporting a high quarterly expense in 2016 as they had to accelerate engine overhauls:

https://www.marketwatch.com/press-relea ... 2016-05-02

That didn't last long. It did boost maintenance expenses to $100k to $110k per aircraft per month.

In 2011 G4 bought 13 SAS MD-80s +12 engines only for the engines, I wonder where those engines are as they were all scheduled for overhaul, but used to avoid overhauling other JT8Ds:
https://m.aviationweek.com/awin/allegia ... 8d-engines

So there should be on the order of 50 to 100 engines rebuilt 2012 to 2016. Those will have a 5 to 7+ year life. How many does DL own? Nite, I am engine obsessed, it is quite possible landing gear or other parts are the limiting item as the whole MD-80 supply chain shut down.

Lightsaber

I think DL will be down to 51 MD88 as of Jan 2020. some of those are parked waiting on C check to cover next summer operations.

As for engines, DL has not done any overhauls internally in the last two years. All the spares have been leased motors. That is the plan until the last planes are retired. We bought up a bunch of AA motors that were worked in the last couple of years of the DL JT8 shop. Even though they had time on them they all had to go through a shop visit to be zeroed out to be used on the DL fleet. Also there are some configuration differences between the other operators that have to changed before they can be installed on the DL fleet. Any more in the pipeline would now be done by one of the lease companies like Aero Thrust and then leased to DL on a power by the hour agreement. DL might have been the buyer of the engine but the lessor take the cost risk of the overhaul and DL then pays for the hours that it uses.
 
tnair1974
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:22 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The timing that we've been hearing (FWIW) is the MD88 will end scheduled passenger operations likely right after the holiday schedule in early-Jan 2021 and a few frames will stick around for charter ops through Spring 2021.

The fact the MD88 uses the same pilot pool as the MD90, and ATL only makes it a bit easier to have a "soft wind-down" of the fleet.

That's an interesting observation but AA went from 26 to zero. Small subfleets are a scheduling inefficiency, and, with assigned seats, a substitution headache. I don't see Delta doing a NASA countdown: 3, 2, 1, zero.

In addition to AA going from 26 to goose egg a little over a month ago, they also sent a massive wave of MD-80s into retirement in September 2018 following the end of that peak summer season. Do AA and DL have different retirement philosophies, at least for the MD-80s(MD-90s)?

True, WN's last 737-300s also made a fairly large wave retirement in September 2017. However, that was largely due to WN management, WN pilots, and the FAA having issues about flying three different generations of 737s simultaneously without being in separate pilot groups. In the end, it was worked out that the last of the WN Classics had to go to the boneyard before the MAXs could enter revenue service and join the NGs.
 
B757Forever
Posts: 818
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:45 am

tnair1974 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The timing that we've been hearing (FWIW) is the MD88 will end scheduled passenger operations likely right after the holiday schedule in early-Jan 2021 and a few frames will stick around for charter ops through Spring 2021.

The fact the MD88 uses the same pilot pool as the MD90, and ATL only makes it a bit easier to have a "soft wind-down" of the fleet.

That's an interesting observation but AA went from 26 to zero. Small subfleets are a scheduling inefficiency, and, with assigned seats, a substitution headache. I don't see Delta doing a NASA countdown: 3, 2, 1, zero.

In addition to AA going from 26 to goose egg a little over a month ago, they also sent a massive wave of MD-80s into retirement in September 2018 following the end of that peak summer season. Do AA and DL have different retirement philosophies, at least for the MD-80s(MD-90s)?

True, WN's last 737-300s also made a fairly large wave retirement in September 2017. However, that was largely due to WN management, WN pilots, and the FAA having issues about flying three different generations of 737s simultaneously without being in separate pilot groups. In the end, it was worked out that the last of the WN Classics had to go to the boneyard before the MAXs could enter revenue service and join the NGs.


The same DL pilot group flies the MD88 and MD90. With the MD90 staying a few more years, there's no need to pull the MD88 fleet down quickly like AA did because those same pilots will still staff the MD90 flying. I suspect when the MD90 retires, they'll go quickly.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
tnair1974
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:28 am

BN727227Ultra wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
A Delta MD-88 reg. N990DL is currently flying from Riverside, CA to Killeen, TX. Positive it’s a military charter. As much as I love seeing the MD-88 in different places, this seems like an unusual aircraft choice given the locations. Won’t hear me complain though!


There's a lot of activity out of GRK. At least three DL Mad Dogs (unless there's a reporting glitch), a UA 764, a Sierra Pacific 735 and an Allegiant 319. All to/from March AFB.

Seems that one of these MD-88s just did a military or sports charter or ferry flight as flight 8966 PDX-SLC.....beforehand, the same flight arrived PDX from March AFB.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KPDX/KSLC

There was also DAL8911 LAN-DEN, another MD-88.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL8911

Speaking of N990DL, it arrived SEA a few days ago.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N990DL

All in all, a very pleasant surprise for Mad Dog enthusiasts out west considering the remaining 88s will generally spend their twilight years closer to Atlanta. During my younger years, I did see some DL MD-88s at DEN. But Delta MD-88s were relatively uncommon at the SLC hub. I've only read of infrequent visits to PDX and SEA.

Kudos to Mad Dog fans in Lansing also, as LAN is currently a Delta Connection station with no mainline service (although UPS has been sending MD-11s there).
 
DALMD80
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:16 pm

I think 990DL usually serves BWI. Might be wrong, but I've seen it on multiple occasions.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6050
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:42 pm

B757Forever wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
That's an interesting observation but AA went from 26 to zero. Small subfleets are a scheduling inefficiency, and, with assigned seats, a substitution headache. I don't see Delta doing a NASA countdown: 3, 2, 1, zero.

In addition to AA going from 26 to goose egg a little over a month ago, they also sent a massive wave of MD-80s into retirement in September 2018 following the end of that peak summer season. Do AA and DL have different retirement philosophies, at least for the MD-80s(MD-90s)?

True, WN's last 737-300s also made a fairly large wave retirement in September 2017. However, that was largely due to WN management, WN pilots, and the FAA having issues about flying three different generations of 737s simultaneously without being in separate pilot groups. In the end, it was worked out that the last of the WN Classics had to go to the boneyard before the MAXs could enter revenue service and join the NGs.


The same DL pilot group flies the MD88 and MD90. With the MD90 staying a few more years, there's no need to pull the MD88 fleet down quickly like AA did because those same pilots will still staff the MD90 flying. I suspect when the MD90 retires, they'll go quickly.


That line of thinking assumes it's pilots, and not parts, scheduling efficiency, or desire for product consistency, that is the gating item. We'll see.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9585
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
In addition to AA going from 26 to goose egg a little over a month ago, they also sent a massive wave of MD-80s into retirement in September 2018 following the end of that peak summer season. Do AA and DL have different retirement philosophies, at least for the MD-80s(MD-90s)?

True, WN's last 737-300s also made a fairly large wave retirement in September 2017. However, that was largely due to WN management, WN pilots, and the FAA having issues about flying three different generations of 737s simultaneously without being in separate pilot groups. In the end, it was worked out that the last of the WN Classics had to go to the boneyard before the MAXs could enter revenue service and join the NGs.


The same DL pilot group flies the MD88 and MD90. With the MD90 staying a few more years, there's no need to pull the MD88 fleet down quickly like AA did because those same pilots will still staff the MD90 flying. I suspect when the MD90 retires, they'll go quickly.


That line of thinking assumes it's pilots, and not parts, scheduling efficiency, or desire for product consistency, that is the gating item. We'll see.

I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is suggesting that it is less likely that with the DL MD-88s there will be a mass one day retirement (eg ~25->0 in one day) like AA did, but rather the fleet will trickle down to nothing. But since the MD-90 retirement will be eliminating a pilot type from Delta (like retiring the MD80 for AA) mass retirement at end of service is more likely with that fleet.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2951
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:32 pm

There will be a mass retirement at the end of 2020. I think the fleet will trickle down at a rate of 3-5 per month to under 20 airframes by Nov 2020 and all are retired at the end of Dec. The trickle down rate coincides with the HMV or C check Due dates for the remaining aircraft.
 
Northwest1988
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:17 pm

I hope someone got some pics of some of those -88s on the west coast this past week!
 
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thewizbizman
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 4:15 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:49 pm

Does anybody have a list of for sure MD90 routes? I got the chance to get on the 88 from ATL to PNS but I am still trying to sneak in an MD90 flight, I really don't want to end up having an equip change, however.
 
WN732
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:25 pm

thewizbizman wrote:
Does anybody have a list of for sure MD90 routes? I got the chance to get on the 88 from ATL to PNS but I am still trying to sneak in an MD90 flight, I really don't want to end up having an equip change, however.


These have been seeing them lately.

ATL-DAB, SAT, ELP, TPA, PVD, BWI, ORD, RDU, MSY
 
DALMD80
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:39 pm

BWI's DL aircraft include, in order of common-ness, the 737, A320/319, MD88, MD90, and the rare 717. The 737 and 320/319 swap, as do the 88 and 90. The 717 subs for the 88/90 I think.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
SELMER40
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:49 pm

WN732 wrote:
thewizbizman wrote:
Does anybody have a list of for sure MD90 routes? I got the chance to get on the 88 from ATL to PNS but I am still trying to sneak in an MD90 flight, I really don't want to end up having an equip change, however.


These have been seeing them lately.

ATL-DAB, SAT, ELP, TPA, PVD, BWI, ORD, RDU, MSY

OAG online for 24 October shows ATL-MEM 6 MD88, 4 MD90 and 1 A321. Most of the time all return to ATL.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
DALMD80
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:24 pm

What? 10 MD-88/90 service a day plus a 321? For one day?
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
KBUF
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:12 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:42 am

thewizbizman wrote:
Does anybody have a list of for sure MD90 routes? I got the chance to get on the 88 from ATL to PNS but I am still trying to sneak in an MD90 flight, I really don't want to end up having an equip change, however.


Save for one flight in each direction, ATL-BUF is entirely MD-90 at the moment.
"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence will be to win a Stanley Cup."-Terry Pegula, February 22, 2011
 
SELMER40
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:56 am

DALMD80 wrote:
What? 10 MD-88/90 service a day plus a 321? For one day?

A sample of the current month weekday schedule.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
tnair1974
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:36 pm

WN732 wrote:
thewizbizman wrote:
Does anybody have a list of for sure MD90 routes? I got the chance to get on the 88 from ATL to PNS but I am still trying to sneak in an MD90 flight, I really don't want to end up having an equip change, however.


These have been seeing them lately.

ATL-DAB, SAT, ELP, TPA, PVD, BWI, ORD, RDU, MSY


Add IAH, BDL, SDF, PHL among a few others. One can use the likes of Flightaware and Flightradar24 to find live MD-90 flights and then look up short term flight schedules to see which spoke airports get the most MD-90s.

I've been trying to get my own first trip on an MD-90. Not long ago, my ATL-SAT segment was changed to a 738 before I even arrived at Atlanta as the scheduled MD-90 apparently went tech. :roll:
 
DALMD80
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:21 am

I would much rather fly an 88 than a 90, just because the 90 is an 88 with less interesting engines and no clamshell reversers, just cascades.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:26 am

DALMD80 wrote:
I would much rather fly an 88 than a 90, just because the 90 is an 88 with less interesting engines and no clamshell reversers, just cascades.


Haha. I wonder what percentage of passengers in the world book based upon such parameters? 0.1% or less?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:53 am

DALMD80 wrote:
What? 10 MD-88/90 service a day plus a 321? For one day?


Yeah. It's a busy route.

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