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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:32 pm

slcguy wrote:
Just a note to moderaters, maybe a lot of these 6-8 month old threads should be closed. Covid -19 changed everything! All the new routes, aircraft upgrades or retirements, new orders and new service threads that started early this year are meaningless now! We'll be lucky to see an airline industry still in existence a year from now. As for the subject at hand, the MD80/90 are done for. There may be a few 80s hanging on around the world for awhile but not for long.

Normally moderators do not explain. However this is a fair note:
1. Since this thread has remained active, by that six month definition in the focum rules, we encourage continued on topic discussion.
2. This thread started off as a thread about DL to retire the MD-80/90 over a period of years and then the title was updated to when they were retired and now that they were retired quickly. We update thread titles as they naturally evolve. If new information comes out, one of the moderators will change the thread title again or lock this thread with a link to a new thread that, for some yet to be known reason, continues the discussion more appropriately. Topics will evolve as this one has and that is a good thing.
3. We encourage topics for a multitude of interests. As long as the title is descriptive and not click bait, we encourage discussion on all sub-aspects of aviation (in the appropriate forum, of course). We encourage our users to read the thread title and opening post to know what is on topic or not and thus know which threads are not worth their time. We impose no statute of limitations on how long a topic interests the users of this site. Around new year (we're volunteers) we do restart topics with a link to the old thread.

Your other points belong in another thread, probably in non-aviation.

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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Wasn't one of the on-demand cargo / charter ops going to take a few of the DL MD88s to replace their DC-9s?
USA Jet?

I have a different opinion on the MD88s. There are still support services for this once very common type. While the MD80 (entire family) is surviving off scavenged parts, there are enough for operations for a bit. My prior posts were directed at the MD-90 where DL has been the only active operator for a while and only one engine overhaul house (which I question if it is still able to continue on the V2500D5, does anyone know?).

Lightsaber
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FlyingViking
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:35 am

Pre Covid the MD-90's were to go by the end of 2022. I assume that Delta had enough parts to keep them in the air until then. If so are those parts still around? Do the engines on the fleet have enough green time left that it would be cost effective to use up that green time instead of overhauls. I'm thinking charters not scheduled service with (really really) cheap to acquire airplanes. Kind of like the CV-990 back in the day with Denver Ports of Call and Spantax that reportedly went for a cool $100K each in the early1980's. With 60 airframes sitting in the scrapyards there must be some parts availability of them. Pilots and Mechanics and a sim? Should be a lot available these days.
 
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:14 am

I have in the past seen Northwest Airlines install a green time engine with 42 hours only to have to take it off ten hours later due to the engine having problems after installation. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:20 am

Hard to believe that no MD-90s are in commercial service anymore when the type was introduced just over 25 years ago and was produced until 2000.
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wjcandee
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:18 am

lightsaber wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Wasn't one of the on-demand cargo / charter ops going to take a few of the DL MD88s to replace their DC-9s?
USA Jet?

I have a different opinion on the MD88s. There are still support services for this once very common type. While the MD80 (entire family) is surviving off scavenged parts, there are enough for operations for a bit. My prior posts were directed at the MD-90 where DL has been the only active operator for a while and only one engine overhaul house (which I question if it is still able to continue on the V2500D5, does anyone know?).

Lightsaber


Its website says that it still does. http://www.pwnz.com/

That's about all I can offer.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:51 am

FlyingViking wrote:
Pre Covid the MD-90's were to go by the end of 2022. I assume that Delta had enough parts to keep them in the air until then. If so are those parts still around? Do the engines on the fleet have enough green time left that it would be cost effective to use up that green time instead of overhauls. I'm thinking charters not scheduled service with (really really) cheap to acquire airplanes. Kind of like the CV-990 back in the day with Denver Ports of Call and Spantax that reportedly went for a cool $100K each in the early1980's. With 60 airframes sitting in the scrapyards there must be some parts availability of them. Pilots and Mechanics and a sim? Should be a lot available these days.

So what mystery charter operator is about to spring to life in this environment? Why would they bother with the short term, even if virtually free MD90 over say a 737 fleet? The MD90 is dead and will not come back. Maybe someone will purchase some of the MD88 frames, but I would not hold my breath at this point.
 
744SPX
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:39 am

I'd take an MD90 over a 737 any day of the week. A savvy operator would do the same.
 
N649DL
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:01 am

744SPX wrote:
I'd take an MD90 over a 737 any day of the week. A savvy operator would do the same.


No AVOD on the M90 was a reason I always chose the 737 over at DL. Those M90 were also used on medium haul routes like MSP-SFO at one point.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:51 am

Does anyone know why the MD-90 was retired so quickly from airline fleets? It's not like it was even an "old" aircraft or that its demise was due to COVID, it was already being retired from airline service as early as the beginning of the 2010s despite deliveries only ending in 2000, plus there are A320s/737s/757s/767s/etc. built in the 1990s that are still flying even today. Was the low production number a factor as well?
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Polot
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:01 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Does anyone know why the MD-90 was retired so quickly from airline fleets? It's not like it was even an "old" aircraft or that its demise was due to COVID, it was already being retired from airline service as early as the beginning of the 2010s despite deliveries only ending in 2000, plus there are A320s/737s/757s/767s/etc. built in the 1990s that are still flying even today. Was the low production number a factor as well?

It was the low production number and lack of a family.

116 MD-90s vs 7000+ 737 NG vs 8000+ A320ceos, the latter two available in multiple sizes. 29 of those MD-90s also had a slightly different cockpit than the rest.

When growing your fleet it just made more sense for most airlines to dump whatever MD-90s they had and hop aboard the 737/A320 train, especially as most did not have or were dumping aging MD-80s too. Even Delta was going to do thay before they decided to go the opposite route and buy up all the MD-90s they could get their hands on. They realized the planes were essentially worthless on the market (including their own 16) but their tech ops ability provided them with an opportunity to deal with an orphan fleet.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:35 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Does anyone know why the MD-90 was retired so quickly from airline fleets? It's not like it was even an "old" aircraft or that its demise was due to COVID, it was already being retired from airline service as early as the beginning of the 2010s despite deliveries only ending in 2000, plus there are A320s/737s/757s/767s/etc. built in the 1990s that are still flying even today. Was the low production number a factor as well?

The low production numbers also made the engine work very expensive in the later stages of the fleet's life. While it share the V2500 with the A320, the two types are different and require different tooling and maintaining a separate cert to do the overhauls. One by one as the fleet sales slipped the MRO shops dropped the MD90 version from their capabilities list. there just was not enough volume of work world wide to justify maintaining the capability. Those resources were better spend on higher yielding engines.

In the end only one MRO shop in New Zealand had the capability current. Delta looked at doing the MRO work in house like many other engine types, but that was deemed to expensive. Resources are better used on newer tech like the expanding GTF engine line. the GTF line will do the Delta fleet and a lot of customer work. That customer work pays the bills for the shop, while the V2500 line would have been a pure cost to the operation.
 
N649DL
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:59 pm

Polot wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Does anyone know why the MD-90 was retired so quickly from airline fleets? It's not like it was even an "old" aircraft or that its demise was due to COVID, it was already being retired from airline service as early as the beginning of the 2010s despite deliveries only ending in 2000, plus there are A320s/737s/757s/767s/etc. built in the 1990s that are still flying even today. Was the low production number a factor as well?

It was the low production number and lack of a family.

116 MD-90s vs 7000+ 737 NG vs 8000+ A320ceos, the latter two available in multiple sizes. 29 of those MD-90s also had a slightly different cockpit than the rest.

When growing your fleet it just made more sense for most airlines to dump whatever MD-90s they had and hop aboard the 737/A320 train, especially as most did not have or were dumping aging MD-80s too. Even Delta was going to do thay before they decided to go the opposite route and buy up all the MD-90s they could get their hands on. They realized the planes were essentially worthless on the market (including their own 16) but their tech ops ability provided them with an opportunity to deal with an orphan fleet.


Not to mention the bulk of the non-legacy DL M90 fleet were acquired from various carriers bit by bit & many of which from 2nd Tier Carriers in Asia. To standardize them, it had to be a huge headache for DL to gut them and work out the kinks and bugs. Apparently there were even weird things to work out like getting cockpit display settings out of foreign languages, IIRC. At least with the A319 and A320 they knew where they were from (Northwest) and alread had the in-house resources to keep them afloat. Recall that the A320 phase 1 reconfiguration didn't include AVOD and I'd assume the A319 refurbishment was so successful which is why the A320 got AVOD as well and are mostly sticking around even during COVID-19.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:48 am

I am surprised Delta only ordered 16 brand new MD-90s in 1995. That seems like such a small order for such a large airline.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:14 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
Pre Covid the MD-90's were to go by the end of 2022. I assume that Delta had enough parts to keep them in the air until then. If so are those parts still around? Do the engines on the fleet have enough green time left that it would be cost effective to use up that green time instead of overhauls. I'm thinking charters not scheduled service with (really really) cheap to acquire airplanes. Kind of like the CV-990 back in the day with Denver Ports of Call and Spantax that reportedly went for a cool $100K each in the early1980's. With 60 airframes sitting in the scrapyards there must be some parts availability of them. Pilots and Mechanics and a sim? Should be a lot available these days.

So what mystery charter operator is about to spring to life in this environment? Why would they bother with the short term, even if virtually free MD90 over say a 737 fleet? The MD90 is dead and will not come back. Maybe someone will purchase some of the MD88 frames, but I would not hold my breath at this point.


There is no mystery operator at this time that I know of. This is simply asking/thinking/hoping/wishing/dreaming/gauging info out loud on Airliners.net. The one off operators are out there. Detroit Red Wings team plane was a BAC-111 then a DC-9-50 which was replaced with the, to my personal surprise, current MD-81 why not a MD-83? Price? Samaritans Purse operates one DC-8-72 on their worldwide disaster relief supply missions. I am simply wondering if this indeed truly is the last of the MD-90 or if one or two frames could/will get resurrected post Covid by another airline.
 
deltairlines
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:01 am

blacksoviet wrote:
I am surprised Delta only ordered 16 brand new MD-90s in 1995. That seems like such a small order for such a large airline.


The original order was for 50 plus another 110 options.

I think DL canceled the rest after the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger and decided to go with the 737-800 instead.
 
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:48 am

deltairlines wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I am surprised Delta only ordered 16 brand new MD-90s in 1995. That seems like such a small order for such a large airline.


The original order was for 50 plus another 110 options.

I think DL canceled the rest after the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger and decided to go with the 737-800 instead.

Yes DL (the first operator) was quite annoyed with the MD-90s many teething issues, especially in regards to the electrical system (the plane use to be the “Minimum Delay- 90 minutes”) and were persuaded to switch to the 738 after they had already suspended deliveries while they waited for MDD to fix the plane’s issues.

Of course those issues got sorted out and DL was happy with the plane, but from ~2001 to 2007ish DL was constantly talking about how they were looking into cutting the fleet to save costs. Ironically DL’s financial inability to replace them with new planes while desiring the capacity they provided in the network is probably what saved them until Delta decided to grow the fleet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:18 am

deltairlines wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I am surprised Delta only ordered 16 brand new MD-90s in 1995. That seems like such a small order for such a large airline.


The original order was for 50 plus another 110 options.

I think DL canceled the rest after the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger and decided to go with the 737-800 instead.


The MD-90 firm + options order was announced at the same time as an order for 100 737s. Those were big numbers back in 1989.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

It followed DL's first MD-88 order in 1986. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:49 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I am surprised Delta only ordered 16 brand new MD-90s in 1995. That seems like such a small order for such a large airline.


The original order was for 50 plus another 110 options.

I think DL canceled the rest after the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger and decided to go with the 737-800 instead.


The MD-90 firm + options order was announced at the same time as an order for 100 737s. Those were big numbers back in 1989.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

It followed DL's first MD-88 order in 1986. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html




Remembering the MD-90 order back in the Ron Allen days!!! Good stuff!
 
smartplane
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Does anyone know why the MD-90 was retired so quickly from airline fleets? It's not like it was even an "old" aircraft or that its demise was due to COVID, it was already being retired from airline service as early as the beginning of the 2010s despite deliveries only ending in 2000, plus there are A320s/737s/757s/767s/etc. built in the 1990s that are still flying even today. Was the low production number a factor as well?

The low production numbers also made the engine work very expensive in the later stages of the fleet's life. While it share the V2500 with the A320, the two types are different and require different tooling and maintaining a separate cert to do the overhauls. One by one as the fleet sales slipped the MRO shops dropped the MD90 version from their capabilities list. there just was not enough volume of work world wide to justify maintaining the capability. Those resources were better spend on higher yielding engines.

In the end only one MRO shop in New Zealand had the capability current. Delta looked at doing the MRO work in house like many other engine types, but that was deemed to expensive. Resources are better used on newer tech like the expanding GTF engine line. the GTF line will do the Delta fleet and a lot of customer work. That customer work pays the bills for the shop, while the V2500 line would have been a pure cost to the operation.

Most of the differences are the mounts on the engine, and therefore the test cell. And the IAE requirement for the cell to accommodate tilt and vibration.

The canny Kiwis designed and built an adaptor to replicate under and side attachment, which presumably can be replicated for the right fee.

Delta Tech Ops is a highly successful profit centre which chose not to fully support the engine used on one of it's parent company's fleet aircraft. McKinsey & Co would be proud, but how far do you take it? DL replacing Tech Ops if service and price not competitive?
 
USAirKid
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:22 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
Pre Covid the MD-90's were to go by the end of 2022. I assume that Delta had enough parts to keep them in the air until then. If so are those parts still around? Do the engines on the fleet have enough green time left that it would be cost effective to use up that green time instead of overhauls. I'm thinking charters not scheduled service with (really really) cheap to acquire airplanes. Kind of like the CV-990 back in the day with Denver Ports of Call and Spantax that reportedly went for a cool $100K each in the early1980's. With 60 airframes sitting in the scrapyards there must be some parts availability of them. Pilots and Mechanics and a sim? Should be a lot available these days.

So what mystery charter operator is about to spring to life in this environment? Why would they bother with the short term, even if virtually free MD90 over say a 737 fleet? The MD90 is dead and will not come back. Maybe someone will purchase some of the MD88 frames, but I would not hold my breath at this point.


There is no mystery operator at this time that I know of. This is simply asking/thinking/hoping/wishing/dreaming/gauging info out loud on Airliners.net. The one off operators are out there. Detroit Red Wings team plane was a BAC-111 then a DC-9-50 which was replaced with the, to my personal surprise, current MD-81 why not a MD-83? Price? Samaritans Purse operates one DC-8-72 on their worldwide disaster relief supply missions. I am simply wondering if this indeed truly is the last of the MD-90 or if one or two frames could/will get resurrected post Covid by another airline.


I'd be curious if there are any non-profits that could use the plane in active service? Would Samaritans purse or some other similar outfit want to pick that up? I also wouldn't be surprised if a few ended up at universities as training equipment. Delta gets a tax write off, plus the good will from donating the plane.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
I am surprised Delta only ordered 16 brand new MD-90s in 1995. That seems like such a small order for such a large airline.


The original order was for 50 plus another 110 options.

I think DL canceled the rest after the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger and decided to go with the 737-800 instead.


The MD-90 firm + options order was announced at the same time as an order for 100 737s. Those were big numbers back in 1989.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

It followed DL's first MD-88 order in 1986. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html


The 737 order in 1989 was for the classics. It was promptly cancelled in the early ‘90s during the recession. Not more than 5 aircraft were delivered. Also cancelled around that time was a further 20-30 MD88 options with deliveries that would have been 1994 as I recall from Flight Global. Interesting side note, MD-11 options continued to get exercised.

The MD90 order was indeed replaced by the 738, at the time of the Boeing/McDD merger proceedings, as correctly stated above. At the same time Boeing locked in Delta with the gentleman’s agreement, as MD would cease to exist in a matter of months.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
Northwest1988
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:00 am

Would have really loved to see all those extra MD-88/90 end up at DL. What a huge fleet that would have been!
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:25 pm

smartplane wrote:
Most of the differences are the mounts on the engine, and therefore the test cell. And the IAE requirement for the cell to accommodate tilt and vibration.

The canny Kiwis designed and built an adaptor to replicate under and side attachment, which presumably can be replicated for the right fee.

Delta Tech Ops is a highly successful profit centre which chose not to fully support the engine used on one of it's parent company's fleet aircraft. McKinsey & Co would be proud, but how far do you take it? DL replacing Tech Ops if service and price not competitive?

Replacing Delta Tech Ops with a lower cost provider has already happened. Most of the heavy airframe mtc has been outsourced for years. At one time it was all done in house. It lead to the closing of Base MTC in DFW and TPA. The 777 engine work for both the Rolls-Royce and The GE were outsourced from day one.

It was painful to see this work go out, but by shedding the high manpower, low yield work to other MRO's Tech Ops has been able to focus on bringing in way more profitable work in the engine and component repair side. In 2019 was a very good year for the MRO side of Tech Ops. Tech Ops came close to off setting 100% of Delta's total maintenance costs.

Decisions like not wanting to bring in the orphan V2500-D2 for the MD90 in house help make that off set. I think at the time of the decision it was already known internally that the MD90 was a deadman walking. The whole Covid19 downturn just moved the date up a year or two. The MD90 was a short term solution from the time the used airframes were purchased. It was either dump the 16 or buy up everything. The Everything plan only made sense because the planes were very cheap to acquire. They filled the void while the company was hurting for cash.
 
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:29 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Most of the differences are the mounts on the engine, and therefore the test cell. And the IAE requirement for the cell to accommodate tilt and vibration.

The canny Kiwis designed and built an adaptor to replicate under and side attachment, which presumably can be replicated for the right fee.

Delta Tech Ops is a highly successful profit centre which chose not to fully support the engine used on one of it's parent company's fleet aircraft. McKinsey & Co would be proud, but how far do you take it? DL replacing Tech Ops if service and price not competitive?

Replacing Delta Tech Ops with a lower cost provider has already happened. Most of the heavy airframe mtc has been outsourced for years. At one time it was all done in house. It lead to the closing of Base MTC in DFW and TPA. The 777 engine work for both the Rolls-Royce and The GE were outsourced from day one.

It was painful to see this work go out, but by shedding the high manpower, low yield work to other MRO's Tech Ops has been able to focus on bringing in way more profitable work in the engine and component repair side. In 2019 was a very good year for the MRO side of Tech Ops. Tech Ops came close to off setting 100% of Delta's total maintenance costs.

Decisions like not wanting to bring in the orphan V2500-D2 for the MD90 in house help make that off set. I think at the time of the decision it was already known internally that the MD90 was a deadman walking. The whole Covid19 downturn just moved the date up a year or two. The MD90 was a short term solution from the time the used airframes were purchased. It was either dump the 16 or buy up everything. The Everything plan only made sense because the planes were very cheap to acquire. They filled the void while the company was hurting for cash.

The MD-90 only made sense due to the low price, with some outsourced maintenance to keep costs in line. So I wonder, will Delta buy used to recover? An interesting thought.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
N649DL
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:11 am

lightsaber wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Most of the differences are the mounts on the engine, and therefore the test cell. And the IAE requirement for the cell to accommodate tilt and vibration.

The canny Kiwis designed and built an adaptor to replicate under and side attachment, which presumably can be replicated for the right fee.

Delta Tech Ops is a highly successful profit centre which chose not to fully support the engine used on one of it's parent company's fleet aircraft. McKinsey & Co would be proud, but how far do you take it? DL replacing Tech Ops if service and price not competitive?

Replacing Delta Tech Ops with a lower cost provider has already happened. Most of the heavy airframe mtc has been outsourced for years. At one time it was all done in house. It lead to the closing of Base MTC in DFW and TPA. The 777 engine work for both the Rolls-Royce and The GE were outsourced from day one.

It was painful to see this work go out, but by shedding the high manpower, low yield work to other MRO's Tech Ops has been able to focus on bringing in way more profitable work in the engine and component repair side. In 2019 was a very good year for the MRO side of Tech Ops. Tech Ops came close to off setting 100% of Delta's total maintenance costs.

Decisions like not wanting to bring in the orphan V2500-D2 for the MD90 in house help make that off set. I think at the time of the decision it was already known internally that the MD90 was a deadman walking. The whole Covid19 downturn just moved the date up a year or two. The MD90 was a short term solution from the time the used airframes were purchased. It was either dump the 16 or buy up everything. The Everything plan only made sense because the planes were very cheap to acquire. They filled the void while the company was hurting for cash.

The MD-90 only made sense due to the low price, with some outsourced maintenance to keep costs in line. So I wonder, will Delta buy used to recover? An interesting thought.

Lightsaber


Enjoy it while you had it I guess. DL M90s had some really impressive takeoff performance and likely experienced peak functionality in like 2016-2018. They were definitely quiet and never experienced a major technical issue whenever I flew them over the last few years. Initially they were supposed to be installed with AVOD as well around 2010-2011 but Delta backtracked and just installed slimline seats and Wi-Fi. I believe the reason was that DL couldn't get some kind of fire certification on the M90 due to the server getting too hot. Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:00 am

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
Anyone want to speculate whether DL will regret retiring an entire fleet if the economy comes roaring back faster than predicted by “the experts?”


They really did nothing but pull ahead the retirements of ~30 MD-90s by two years. The MD-88s had long been tagged to be gone by end 2020, anyway, and the MD-90s by end 2022.

I don't think DL is going to miss 30 mid-range, medium-size narrowbodies. The better question is if/how they'll be able to fund the A220/A321neo deliveries, and what/how long has been deferred.

I agree. Due to unemployment, there is no chance of a need within 18 months. Delta is a numbers run airline. They will clearly see trends early.

A320(NEO and CEO) and 738 resale values have dropped 15%, see the lease values thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1440991&start=50

If DL needs more aircraft, they'll buy newer, more efficient, cheap.

Lightsaber


You infer here (and note in today's comment here) that Delta is one of the best on acquiring used planes if it presents the right value and the planes are in good condition. I am sure Delta will be buying or leasing a whole lot of planes once most of their stored aircraft are back in service. No one knows where the market bottom is, but it's probably still a year or two away. Delta will be buying a mix of new, young used, and used, either taking over say, Air Asia's planes that aren't being taken up, or Norwegian's used fleet. Likely not those, but next year's airlines in trouble.

As there are so few, and the lack of affordable green time engines, the MD-90 will soon be gone.

Is ART just storing the MD-88 and 90 for now or have they begun scrapping for parts, or just salvage.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:12 am

N649DL wrote:
Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)

The 733s made it to the East? I know they were used for DL Shuttle for a while but that's about it. IIRC the 733s were rare outside that (even looking at photos of them in the database has remarks such as "we don't get a lot of these in ATL..."). The 73Ss were used extensively, however. I always thought it was interesting that DL was quick to retire the 733s but kept the 73Ss on for longer than any other US carrier, sans for maybe WN.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
N649DL
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:37 pm

USAirALB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)

The 733s made it to the East? I know they were used for DL Shuttle for a while but that's about it. IIRC the 733s were rare outside that (even looking at photos of them in the database has remarks such as "we don't get a lot of these in ATL..."). The 73Ss were used extensively, however. I always thought it was interesting that DL was quick to retire the 733s but kept the 73Ss on for longer than any other US carrier, sans for maybe WN.


The 733s did but in very small numbers off of IIRC "tag on" routes coming out from SLC and eventually rotated back out from ATL. Allentown, PA to ATL was on a DL 733 for quite a few years. I also found a 733 on ATL-RIC: http://www.departedflights.com/RIC99p1.html
 
USAirALB
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:20 pm

N649DL wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)

The 733s made it to the East? I know they were used for DL Shuttle for a while but that's about it. IIRC the 733s were rare outside that (even looking at photos of them in the database has remarks such as "we don't get a lot of these in ATL..."). The 73Ss were used extensively, however. I always thought it was interesting that DL was quick to retire the 733s but kept the 73Ss on for longer than any other US carrier, sans for maybe WN.


The 733s did but in very small numbers off of IIRC "tag on" routes coming out from SLC and eventually rotated back out from ATL. Allentown, PA to ATL was on a DL 733 for quite a few years. I also found a 733 on ATL-RIC: http://www.departedflights.com/RIC99p1.html

Interesting...a quick check looks that the majority of ATL 733 routes were to smaller cities (HSV/TLH). Did the 733s have a smaller F cabin than the MD-80s at the time?
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
tnair1974
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:38 pm

USAirALB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)

The 733s made it to the East? I know they were used for DL Shuttle for a while but that's about it. IIRC the 733s were rare outside that (even looking at photos of them in the database has remarks such as "we don't get a lot of these in ATL..."). The 73Ss were used extensively, however. I always thought it was interesting that DL was quick to retire the 733s but kept the 73Ss on for longer than any other US carrier, sans for maybe WN.

DL 733s flew out of ATL in small numbers during the 1990s, such as to HSV, LEX, RIC and ABE (both already mentioned), DTW (I think both ATL-DTW and SLC-DTW but somebody with more knowledge can verify). As you touched on, only a few pics in the database of DL 733s at ATL but it's notable a few of those pics show DL 733s in hangers undergoing maintenance. Anybody know what 733 maintenance DL did at ATL, anything C check or higher? Of course, DL already had 732s, but the 733's CFM56 engines would have been new at ATL following the Western merger.

Maybe somewhat more DL 733s at ATL than there were DL MD-88s at SLC.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:00 pm

I recall the DFW hub being MD-90/733 heavy while not having as many MD-80s as well.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:12 pm

USAirALB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)

The 733s made it to the East? I know they were used for DL Shuttle for a while but that's about it. IIRC the 733s were rare outside that (even looking at photos of them in the database has remarks such as "we don't get a lot of these in ATL..."). The 73Ss were used extensively, however. I always thought it was interesting that DL was quick to retire the 733s but kept the 73Ss on for longer than any other US carrier, sans for maybe WN.

I think the low bypass engines on the 732 could cool down faster resulting in quicker turnaround times.
 
deltairlines
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:12 pm

I seem to remember the 733 that went to ABE had a triangle component to it - I think MDT was included but might have been AVP.

I don't really recall any MD-88s out of SLC; there were some at DFW (I think a lot of them did some of the multi-stop flights between DFW and ATL that hit up a variety of cities in Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama/Tennessee/Florida panhandle).
 
N649DL
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:42 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Definitely a weird niche aircraft for sure, much like the DL 733s that were ex-Western A/C but found their way on short-haul ATL routes into the 2000s (like ATL-ABE.)

The 733s made it to the East? I know they were used for DL Shuttle for a while but that's about it. IIRC the 733s were rare outside that (even looking at photos of them in the database has remarks such as "we don't get a lot of these in ATL..."). The 73Ss were used extensively, however. I always thought it was interesting that DL was quick to retire the 733s but kept the 73Ss on for longer than any other US carrier, sans for maybe WN.

DL 733s flew out of ATL in small numbers during the 1990s, such as to HSV, LEX, RIC and ABE (both already mentioned), DTW (I think both ATL-DTW and SLC-DTW but somebody with more knowledge can verify). As you touched on, only a few pics in the database of DL 733s at ATL but it's notable a few of those pics show DL 733s in hangers undergoing maintenance. Anybody know what 733 maintenance DL did at ATL, anything C check or higher? Of course, DL already had 732s, but the 733's CFM56 engines would have been new at ATL following the Western merger.

Maybe somewhat more DL 733s at ATL than there were DL MD-88s at SLC.


I recall the DL 732s were used in large numbers out of CVG and eventually got moved to MCO and FLL for Delta Express (single class) operations. I'm not sure if the 732 existed outside the DL Express network once that happened in the late 1990s.

I also forgot the 733 was based out of the old DFW hub. Nice catch. And yes, IIRC the 733 on ATL-ABE was on some weird triangle route. Trying to dig it up on Departed Flights but can't seem to find it. It did operate as late as 1999 I'm pretty sure though.
 
KFTG
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:04 am

The 737-200 did end up back at "mainline" prior to their retirement.
 
tnair1974
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:45 am

Add TYS and GSO having had DL 733 service from ATL.

IAD had DL 733 flights, but not sure if they were from ATL, SLC (or both), other DL hubs.

deltairlines wrote:
I don't really recall any MD-88s out of SLC; there were some at DFW (I think a lot of them did some of the multi-stop flights between DFW and ATL that hit up a variety of cities in Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama/Tennessee/Florida panhandle).

DL MD-88 pictures at SLC seem even more uncommon than DL 733 photos at ATL, but a few pics of the former are floating around...
https://www.planespotters.net/photo/037 ... glas-md-88

For a twin, the MD-80 doesn't exactly have the most spritely climb performance (the short fuselage MD-87 being a possible exception??). A key factor considering not only SLC's relatively high elevation, but also the Salt Lake Valley being largely surrounded by high terrain. Probably at least partial reasons why Delta favored equipment like MD-90s and 737s over MD-88s at SLC, especially during the hot summer months. The relatively few scheduled DL MD-88s from SLC were generally short/medium hops (of course lighter fuel loads), and these operated more during the cooler times of the year when lower temperatures allowed better takeoff performance.

The scheduled DL MD-88 flights I've read about include SLC-MSP/BOI/SJC/LAX/DFW, maybe DEN IIRC. But there were at least a few wintertime DL SLC-CVG flights in which MD-88s were last minute substitutions; these are the longest MD-80 flights of any airline out of SLC that I know of.

I get the impression that DL's old DFW hub was a gateway for DL MD-88s to traverse between SLC and ATL, although MSP also seemed to be used for this purpose after the NW merger (more info from those more knowledgeable would be appreciated).
 
Brianpr3
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:53 am

Random thought, for the pilots from the md aircraft I'm sure some retired, where did they upgrade too?
Brian
 
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KLASM83
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:29 am

Brianpr3 wrote:
Random thought, for the pilots from the md aircraft I'm sure some retired, where did they upgrade too?

The folks who operated my jet (N978DL) went on to the 737, but they have to wait for classes, so who knows what has been going on since June for them.

Probably a lot of different possibilities, that's for sure.
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:07 pm

KLASM83 wrote:
Brianpr3 wrote:
Random thought, for the pilots from the md aircraft I'm sure some retired, where did they upgrade too?

The folks who operated my jet (N978DL) went on to the 737, but they have to wait for classes, so who knows what has been going on since June for them.

Probably a lot of different possibilities, that's for sure.

If the most senior, retire. I would imagine many of the copilots received furlough notices. :cry2:

The rest displace retired or furloughed Pilots on other aircraft. I would imagine downgrades from Captain to copilot were common as the MD-80 fleet, per what I've read here and there elsewhere, were typically more junior in Captain status.

How long is DL's class backlog? Between pilots from the 777, MD90, and MD80 and all the cascades, I would guess junior MD-80 pilots are probably still waiting. Last I looked, Delta had twice the pilots required.

I feel for everyone losing a job.

Lightsaber
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:22 pm

The pilots displaced off the MD88/90 are awarded their bid preferences in seniority order based on what positions are available.
DL did a massive displacement bid earlier this summer when they announced the full closing of the MD88/90 and 777 categories along with numerous other base/equipement closures e.g., DTW 7ER, SLC 7ER, NYC 717, etc.

Pilots bid their preference based on the what factors including pay, quality of life, or equipment preference/routes.

MD88/90 were a single category at one base only, ATL.
There were some very senior MD88 captains, many lived in base and/or easy commuting to ATL,
The senior MD88 captains, some likely took the early retirement package, but the other senior captains probably bid their preference for whatever they wanted in ATL.
Likely many going to ATL A320 or ATL 737, some maybe even ATL 7ER. If you really likely only being on T-tails and out-and-back ATL flying despite a pay cut the 717 ATL
Lower seniority ATL MD88 captains may end up as 717 or down to FO other fleet types.

A good portion of the MD88 FOs were junior. They likely got displaced downward. Some will be lucky enough to hold 717 ATL or NYC A220. The others, hired after July 2017 will be furloughed.

Lots of cascading displacements with all the fleet and base changes, and early retirements, and contraction of the number of pilots. There is a huge training backlog. Some may not fly for months until they get a class date for training.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to staff and fly the A220 this fall, considering so many of the FOs are about to be furloughed come Oct 1.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:41 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The pilots displaced off the MD88/90 are awarded their bid preferences in seniority order based on what positions are available.
DL did a massive displacement bid earlier this summer when they announced the full closing of the MD88/90 and 777 categories along with numerous other base/equipement closures e.g., DTW 7ER, SLC 7ER, NYC 717, etc.

Pilots bid their preference based on the what factors including pay, quality of life, or equipment preference/routes.

MD88/90 were a single category at one base only, ATL.
There were some very senior MD88 captains, many lived in base and/or easy commuting to ATL,
The senior MD88 captains, some likely took the early retirement package, but the other senior captains probably bid their preference for whatever they wanted in ATL.
Likely many going to ATL A320 or ATL 737, some maybe even ATL 7ER. If you really likely only being on T-tails and out-and-back ATL flying despite a pay cut the 717 ATL
Lower seniority ATL MD88 captains may end up as 717 or down to FO other fleet types.

A good portion of the MD88 FOs were junior. They likely got displaced downward. Some will be lucky enough to hold 717 ATL or NYC A220. The others, hired after July 2017 will be furloughed.

Lots of cascading displacements with all the fleet and base changes, and early retirements, and contraction of the number of pilots. There is a huge training backlog. Some may not fly for months until they get a class date for training.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to staff and fly the A220 this fall, considering so many of the FOs are about to be furloughed come Oct 1.

I think you described the cascade effect well. Those hired after July 2017 will be furloughed. I do think the training backlog will result in a few gaining a few more hours.

I imagine a few 'once Captains' are talking with the family. Belts will be tightened.

Lightsaber
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TYWoolman
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:09 pm

KFTG wrote:
The 737-200 did end up back at "mainline" prior to their retirement.


I remember taking a JFK to ATL trip to see the last L1011 slated for retirement in 2001 on a 737-200 dressed in Express garb, for what that's worth.
 
777Mech
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:00 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The pilots displaced off the MD88/90 are awarded their bid preferences in seniority order based on what positions are available.
DL did a massive displacement bid earlier this summer when they announced the full closing of the MD88/90 and 777 categories along with numerous other base/equipement closures e.g., DTW 7ER, SLC 7ER, NYC 717, etc.

Pilots bid their preference based on the what factors including pay, quality of life, or equipment preference/routes.

MD88/90 were a single category at one base only, ATL.
There were some very senior MD88 captains, many lived in base and/or easy commuting to ATL,
The senior MD88 captains, some likely took the early retirement package, but the other senior captains probably bid their preference for whatever they wanted in ATL.
Likely many going to ATL A320 or ATL 737, some maybe even ATL 7ER. If you really likely only being on T-tails and out-and-back ATL flying despite a pay cut the 717 ATL
Lower seniority ATL MD88 captains may end up as 717 or down to FO other fleet types.


A good portion of the MD88 FOs were junior. They likely got displaced downward. Some will be lucky enough to hold 717 ATL or NYC A220. The others, hired after July 2017 will be furloughed.

Lots of cascading displacements with all the fleet and base changes, and early retirements, and contraction of the number of pilots. There is a huge training backlog. Some may not fly for months until they get a class date for training.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to staff and fly the A220 this fall, considering so many of the FOs are about to be furloughed come Oct 1.


I know of one super senior -88 Captain bid for and was awarded ATL A350 FO. Insane.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:31 am

777Mech wrote:

I know of one super senior -88 Captain bid for and was awarded ATL A350 FO. Insane.


I've heard that expressed as 'Bid what you want, and want what you bid.' DL is still going to be a be carrier with a variety of types and a multitude of bases. Somebody with five kids in school probably doesn't want to tackle NYC or LAX cost of living. Go to SLC and be the small family on the block. :)

Your example may not even be taking a pay cut but is probably going to be away from home more nights each month. There are lots of vectors of quality of life.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7096
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Re: Updated: DL retired MD-80/90s quickly

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:52 am

777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The pilots displaced off the MD88/90 are awarded their bid preferences in seniority order based on what positions are available.
DL did a massive displacement bid earlier this summer when they announced the full closing of the MD88/90 and 777 categories along with numerous other base/equipement closures e.g., DTW 7ER, SLC 7ER, NYC 717, etc.

Pilots bid their preference based on the what factors including pay, quality of life, or equipment preference/routes.

MD88/90 were a single category at one base only, ATL.
There were some very senior MD88 captains, many lived in base and/or easy commuting to ATL,
The senior MD88 captains, some likely took the early retirement package, but the other senior captains probably bid their preference for whatever they wanted in ATL.
Likely many going to ATL A320 or ATL 737, some maybe even ATL 7ER. If you really likely only being on T-tails and out-and-back ATL flying despite a pay cut the 717 ATL
Lower seniority ATL MD88 captains may end up as 717 or down to FO other fleet types.


A good portion of the MD88 FOs were junior. They likely got displaced downward. Some will be lucky enough to hold 717 ATL or NYC A220. The others, hired after July 2017 will be furloughed.

Lots of cascading displacements with all the fleet and base changes, and early retirements, and contraction of the number of pilots. There is a huge training backlog. Some may not fly for months until they get a class date for training.

It will be interesting to see how they are able to staff and fly the A220 this fall, considering so many of the FOs are about to be furloughed come Oct 1.


I know of one super senior -88 Captain bid for and was awarded ATL A350 FO. Insane.


Not super surprised about that, especially since the 777 is leaving the fleet. Makes any competition for seats on those very long hauls (where realistically you're flying 2-3 trips/month) even more competitive.

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