Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 24
 
cessna2
Posts: 398
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:46 pm

lightsaber wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
Looks like all MD88's will be gone by 2020 and then only 16 MD90's will operate in the fleet for 2021-2022 will all retired by end of 2022! Gonna miss the T-tails but at least we'll have a few years to hitch a ride.

What is this based upon? As some MD-88s have ADS-B, I assume you mean all MD-88s will be retired prior to YE 2020? Likely; I would like to know the c-check history/due dates.

As to MD-90s gone by YE 2022? That makes sense. I expect none are now going through HMV and few through a regular c-check even.

Lightsaber

Correct. MD88's gone by year end 2020 and MD90s gone by year end 2022.
 
Thomas32125
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:30 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:21 am

I am planning a trip to ATL for next summer, does anyone have the routes for the MD90 from and to ATL as I would love to get it onto my list and it will most probably be my last chance..
 
tnair1974
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:36 pm

Thomas32125 wrote:
I am planning a trip to ATL for next summer, does anyone have the routes for the MD90 from and to ATL as I would love to get it onto my list and it will most probably be my last chance..

This was covered several weeks ago with lots of cities mentioned. You can go back to post # 140 and work forward. Needless to say as the fleet draws down, more cities lose Mad Dogs and this can change relatively quickly. For example, EWR had lots of MD-88s/90s until recently but they are virtually gone now.

I also have yet to fly on an MD-90. Not long ago, I booked an MD-90 ATL-SAT but it was switched to a 738 as the 90 apparently had gone tech. :roll: I will try again early next year.
 
Taeks
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:02 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:17 pm

The day DL retires their MD-80s it will be sad. It was the first airliner I've flown on and serves as one of my earliest airport memories.
Back in the early 90s when airport security was lax, and you can walk up to the gate and greet arrivals. A very young me (maybe 3-4 years old), nearly boarded a flight until they realized I wasn't a ticketed passenger. :D
 
DALMD80
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:20 pm

Yeah. I love the Mad Dogs, and they were the 2nd type I flew on.
The 757-200 with Rolls Royce engines in the US Airways livery is the ultimate in airliner beauty,
 
tnair1974
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:51 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.
[snip]

It indeed seems logical that regularly scheduled MD-88 flights would be restricted to areas closer to ATL due to limitations of the FMS.

This said, DL MD-88s recently did military/sports charters out west to destinations such as RIV, SLC, SEA, PDX. Presuming there is normally a quarantine keeping MD-88s closer to ATL, how were the recent MD-88 flights to the western US done? Would extensive reprogramming of the old FMS be needed? How pragmatic is it to quickly remove unneeded data from the old FMS to allow a database of western US waypoints/airports? Out west there of course would be no pressing need for the FMS to store data of, for example, the northeastern US (once back to ATL, the plane's FMS could be returned to normal status).
 
User avatar
2nd2none
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:05 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:50 am

Delta: Down to : 52 + 27 = 79 at Planespotters
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:10 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
When was the farthest west the MD-88s have been scheduled in the last five years? I know for a few weeks in 2017, maybe it was 2018, there was one on MSP-PDX.

I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.
[snip]

It indeed seems logical that regularly scheduled MD-88 flights would be restricted to areas closer to ATL due to limitations of the FMS.

This said, DL MD-88s recently did military/sports charters out west to destinations such as RIV, SLC, SEA, PDX. Presuming there is normally a quarantine keeping MD-88s closer to ATL, how were the recent MD-88 flights to the western US done? Would extensive reprogramming of the old FMS be needed? How pragmatic is it to quickly remove unneeded data from the old FMS to allow a database of western US waypoints/airports? Out west there of course would be no pressing need for the FMS to store data of, for example, the northeastern US (once back to ATL, the plane's FMS could be returned to normal status).

The FMS is only partially why the fleet is being restricted to the ATL area. Another reason is that ATL has a ton of short out and back flights (think of all the ATL-Southeast cities DL mainline flies) where the MD88’s fuel burn is less of an issue and where frequencies vary depending on day of week and season (lower/less ideal utilization less of an issue with the old paid off frames). Enough to keep the decent sized fleet in use.
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:59 pm

MD's go to KICT/Wichita from ATL daily
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:31 pm

Polot wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I think they are quarantined to the eastern half of the country now. I don't know where the border of their domain is but I think it is a hard border for the fleet.

Part of the upgraded avionics the fleet was planning to get along with the ADS-B was an upgraded FMS system. This was a very involved upgrade to the entire electrical distribution system of the airframe. down in the lower e/e compartment there is a huge relay panel. It is the entire forward wall of the e/e. It's full. The new FMS needs more space on that panel. It is kind of like making an addition for you house, a home theater room would be a good example. Your electrical panel is maxed out for your current house. It also has had many years of crazy additions. Time for a gut and and expansion.

So what does this have to do with the eastern quarantine? The old FMS is way too small for today's database. Let's face it, it is a computer from the mid 80's that has been upgraded many times. It needs a larger hard drive essentially, but the motherboard can not accept anything larger. A newer FMS needs more power than the plane has available in it's current configuration. This was the true cause for retirement. Yes, ADS-B factors in. It wasn't economical to install the ungraded ADS-B system on a fleet that would be quarantined to half the country. A few airframes, 20 I believe, received ADS-B without the FMS upgrade. They are the last to go as their HMV due date is about a year after the ADS-B requirement.

That is the story I heard. I could be wrong,but It really makes sense. It explains why DL was buying up every spare part, engine, and entire parts airframes. At the time the plan was to upgrade the FMS and keep flying the MD80/90 for many years. The MD90 engine costs skyrocketed, then the deal for the FMS upgrade fell through.
[snip]

It indeed seems logical that regularly scheduled MD-88 flights would be restricted to areas closer to ATL due to limitations of the FMS.

This said, DL MD-88s recently did military/sports charters out west to destinations such as RIV, SLC, SEA, PDX. Presuming there is normally a quarantine keeping MD-88s closer to ATL, how were the recent MD-88 flights to the western US done? Would extensive reprogramming of the old FMS be needed? How pragmatic is it to quickly remove unneeded data from the old FMS to allow a database of western US waypoints/airports? Out west there of course would be no pressing need for the FMS to store data of, for example, the northeastern US (once back to ATL, the plane's FMS could be returned to normal status).

The FMS is only partially why the fleet is being restricted to the ATL area. Another reason is that ATL has a ton of short out and back flights (think of all the ATL-Southeast cities DL mainline flies) where the MD88’s fuel burn is less of an issue and where frequencies vary depending on day of week and season (lower/less ideal utilization less of an issue with the old paid off frames). Enough to keep the decent sized fleet in use.

You have a good reason to stay close:
Fuel Burn
Flying only at premium times


It is enough for a fleet for a little while. The use of green time engines instead of overhauls limits how long the fleet can be sustained. I suspect there will be an extension, but fewer aircraft and not much longer.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
danipawa
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:25 pm

MD Douglas MD88 49538 1365 N907DL Delta Air Lines ferried 03dec19 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap (+ 49980/1712 N961DL)
MD Douglas MD88 49981 1725 N926DL Delta Air Lines ferried 03dec19 ATL-BHM, for part-out & scrap

source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
 
User avatar
2nd2none
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:05 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:13 pm

danipawa wrote:
MD Douglas MD88 49538 1365 N907DL Delta Air Lines ferried 03dec19 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap (+ 49980/1712 N961DL)
MD Douglas MD88 49981 1725 N926DL Delta Air Lines ferried 03dec19 ATL-BHM, for part-out & scrap

source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4


It is actually N962DL not N926DL
 
SELMER40
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:39 pm

I just found in Official Airline Guide Online a showing that the last MD88 Memphis-Atlanta flights will be 31 August 20 (subject to change any week). A sample mid-week schedule up to then shows 1 321 and 10 M88. On 1 Sep 20 the mid-week schedule shows 1 321 and 10 738. That looks like a 3 plane reduction.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:26 am

It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
User avatar
2nd2none
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:05 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:30 am

Delta: Down to : 50 + 27 = 77 at Planespotters
 
Fex180
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:33 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:47 pm

DL still has MD-88/90's scheduled for most frequencies of ATL-PVD/PWM through September. How many MD's will be left in the fleet at that point? I don't know if that schedule is a placeholder or not
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8482
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:23 pm

IMHO you're right to be suspicious of placeholders. They've got 88s (and 90s) scheduled ATL-PWM into November 2020. I'm pretty sure there will still be a few -88 routes into December but I wouldn't bet on PWM.
 
User avatar
2nd2none
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:05 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:56 am

Delta: Down to : 49 + 27 = 76

MD Douglas
MD88
53313
1924
N986DL
Delta Air Lines ferried 17dec19 ATL-BYH, for part-out & scrap
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:57 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?

All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:25 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?

All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber


Thanks. My thinking about second-hand placements is about non-US markets, used to fix MD-80's with presumably very few resources. Venezuela and Iran come to mind. Also Bulgaria has a dozen or so of MD-80's flying. With old equipment and cannibalization, it's often very useful to have plenty of spares at your disposal nearby, than already harvested components in third-party warehouse, on the other side of the planet (talking with personal experience, though in non-airplane environment).

Also, Everts Air Cargo is poised to be in MD-80 game for some time. Would it make sense for them to add a few MD-80 frames more, as their DC-6 fleet is not getting any younger?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10862
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:30 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
It's 16 days left until 2020. Should we assume that all MD-80s and MD-90s, that stay in Delta fleet past January 1, are fully ADS-B equipped and compliant?

What about those planes that are retired, but eventually find new owners (presumably outside US)? Will there be special ferry permits for non-ADS-B compliant frames?

All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber


Thanks. My thinking about second-hand placements is about non-US markets, used to fix MD-80's with presumably very few resources. Venezuela and Iran come to mind. Also Bulgaria has a dozen or so of MD-80's flying. With old equipment and cannibalization, it's often very useful to have plenty of spares at your disposal nearby, than already harvested components in third-party warehouse, on the other side of the planet (talking with personal experience, though in non-airplane environment).

Also, Everts Air Cargo is poised to be in MD-80 game for some time. Would it make sense for them to add a few MD-80 frames more, as their DC-6 fleet is not getting any younger?

The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.
 
Western727
Posts: 1794
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:46 pm

I see 992 was ferried to BHM on 3 Dec. for parting out and scrapping. She had great sentimental value for me; emergency descent and landing at JAN (on an early-morning AUS-ATL flight) due to smoke in the cabin. FO told me after we all disembarked that "we got her down in 12 minutes flat" from FL360, thanks to the spoilers that were extended all the way from TOD to short final. Luckily I had a Garmin hiking GPS unit on me, for the skies were OVC. Because the smoke had dissipated well before landing, I was all smiles upon the equipment meeting us on the ground at the high-speed turnoff from 34L. :D :D :D
Jack @ AUS
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8238
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:00 pm

It would be interested to see what DL would've done had they been a MAX operator, but if the were in the situation others are facing there likely would've extended the longevity of the MD-88 and particularly MD-90 frames a bit longer.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:06 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
It would be interested to see what DL would've done had they been a MAX operator, but if the were in the situation others are facing there likely would've extended the longevity of the MD-88 and particularly MD-90 frames a bit longer.

Not really an options, most of the frames don't have mandatory hardware needed January 1 2020 so they wouldnhave needed to make the decision months ago or it wouldn't have made any difference.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:38 pm

Polot wrote:
...
The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.


Well, operators in Iran are not exactly facing an excess of options. Or they would be already scrapping their MD-80's and buying A32X and 737NG in dozens. But they are not, and this tells us something about their predicament.

Also, Everts is presumably mainly operating in Alaska, and that means gravel airstrips in some locations. Not exactly A32X and 737NG territory. So they MUST have a plan, how to fly these birds for some time. They've deployed some capital into frames and simulators -- not something to do, if you expect to retire the fleet shortly.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:45 pm

Polot wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
All that remain in service. Some fraction will remain certified that could receive ADS-B if another hull had to be abandoned (say a ground truck incident where the ADS-B could be moved).

I do not know ferry permit rules. There isn't much of a second hand market. Not since used A319s went at scrap rates. Then again, used prices might receive a boost.

Lightsaber


Thanks. My thinking about second-hand placements is about non-US markets, used to fix MD-80's with presumably very few resources. Venezuela and Iran come to mind. Also Bulgaria has a dozen or so of MD-80's flying. With old equipment and cannibalization, it's often very useful to have plenty of spares at your disposal nearby, than already harvested components in third-party warehouse, on the other side of the planet (talking with personal experience, though in non-airplane environment).

Also, Everts Air Cargo is poised to be in MD-80 game for some time. Would it make sense for them to add a few MD-80 frames more, as their DC-6 fleet is not getting any younger?

The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.

I 100% agree on spare parts being an issue. In no way do I expect much of a life extension. As I posted before in this thread, the utilization of green time engines to keep the MD-80s flying caps how much they can fly. To my knowledge, DL stopped engine overhaul last year. To my knowledge, that is because the few engine parts left are being used to do minor repairs to otherwise good engines.

But if an MD-80 were knocked out of service, there are a few non ADS-B MD-80 that could receive the avionics (and probably engines) to nurse the fleet through the limited remaining life.

DL has options for new aircraft (including newer used aircraft).

The limited MD-88+MD-90 fleet is facinating.

The fleet will limp along longer than I thought. Then again, I didn't see any MD-88 upgraded to ADS-B. I also thought the MD-90 would be around longer. DL spread out overhauls between 3 shops with a tiny fleet, so 2 called it quits and the 3rd was the most expensive option ending operational viability. I estimate this increased MD-90 operating costs about 5% on just engine overhaul.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:54 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Polot wrote:
...
The problem with the MD-80 is the spare market for critical parts is rapidly drying up, especially as AA stretched their fleet a bit longer than initially planned. Used A32Xs and 737NGs just make more sense. Many are getting cheap, parts are plentiful, and it is only a generation behind current tech and not two.


Well, operators in Iran are not exactly facing an excess of options. Or they would be already scrapping their MD-80's and buying A32X and 737NG in dozens. But they are not, and this tells us something about their predicament.

Also, Everts is presumably mainly operating in Alaska, and that means gravel airstrips in some locations. Not exactly A32X and 737NG territory. So they MUST have a plan, how to fly these birds for some time. They've deployed some capital into frames and simulators -- not something to do, if you expect to retire the fleet shortly.

Iran counterfeits parts. So they can fly MD-80s longer. Recall how ancient the MD-80/JT8D designs are. There are no sophisticated materials or manufacturing processes on a engine with 1963 technology on s 1965 technology airframe.

The issue is certification of the parts. But with parts manufacturable on 55+ year old tooling concepts, reverse engineering isn't difficult.

Heck, DL legally makes MD-88 and some JT-8D parts. But not enough to fly indefinitely. In particular, engine parts and cabin pressurization parts are becoming scarce.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
dcaviation
Posts: 487
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:29 pm

Down to 53 MD-88 and 28 MD-90s
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:26 pm

Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:46 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.

The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.

The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber


I was just browsing through today's ATL traffic on Flight Aware and was astonished at how much lift the M88/90 fleet still provides for Delta. It will be interesting to see if Airbus can deliver enough A220's and A321's in the next couple of years to keep Delta from having some service gaps while they quickly draw down the MD fleets. Will Delta possibly shop the used A319 market to get some stop gap lift?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20544
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:28 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Delta down to 48 MD-88s and 27 MD-90s according to planespotters.

As I understand it they are going to try to reduce to 25 MD-90s by the end of the year, but then take three more years to retire the last 25.

Delta plans to retire all 48 MD-88s by the end of 2020.

The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber


I was just browsing through today's ATL traffic on Flight Aware and was astonished at how much lift the M88/90 fleet still provides for Delta. It will be interesting to see if Airbus can deliver enough A220's and A321's in the next couple of years to keep Delta from having some service gaps while they quickly draw down the MD fleets. Will Delta possibly shop the used A319 market to get some stop gap lift?

You mean like AA and UA?
Link UA: https://www.avgeekery.com/blocking-tack ... rbus-jets/

AA planning (I do not know if firmed):
https://simpleflying.com/american-airli ... -purchase/

But DL seems ok with:
A220-100, 17 more on order
A220-300, 50 on order
A321CEO, 32 more on order
A321NEO, 100 on order

Due to the lower utilization of the MD-88/90 fleet, DL will do fine.

They could also buy used 737NG, but for now A319CEO or A320CEO seem to be a better bargain.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:01 am

lightsaber wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The only links I found quoted 23 MD-90 by year end. Well, 32 minus 9=23:
https://simpleflying.com/delta-md-90-retirement/

Plan is to retire in 2022 the MD-90. The MD-88s retire next year (2020). I wonder if all 23 are good for a few years? 2022 implies a final C-check in 2020... It also implies an end to the c-check maintenance program, so no reprieve.

Lightsaber


I was just browsing through today's ATL traffic on Flight Aware and was astonished at how much lift the M88/90 fleet still provides for Delta. It will be interesting to see if Airbus can deliver enough A220's and A321's in the next couple of years to keep Delta from having some service gaps while they quickly draw down the MD fleets. Will Delta possibly shop the used A319 market to get some stop gap lift?

You mean like AA and UA?
Link UA: https://www.avgeekery.com/blocking-tack ... rbus-jets/

AA planning (I do not know if firmed):
https://simpleflying.com/american-airli ... -purchase/

But DL seems ok with:
A220-100, 17 more on order
A220-300, 50 on order
A321CEO, 32 more on order
A321NEO, 100 on order

Due to the lower utilization of the MD-88/90 fleet, DL will do fine.

They could also buy used 737NG, but for now A319CEO or A320CEO seem to be a better bargain.

Lightsaber

NG values are being artificially supported by the max grounding, I suspect once max deliveries are back on schedule we will see comparable values.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8482
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:43 am

lightsaber wrote:
But DL seems ok with:
A220-100, 17 more on order
A220-300, 50 on order
A321CEO, 32 more on order
A321NEO, 100 on order


IMHO, it's not the number on order that's critical - it's the delivery pace by year (the next Annual Report should be interesting, just ~8 weeks away) and if manufacturers can meet their commitments. 321neos and 223s to be delivered 'after 2021' don't help with MD-88 retirements this year and next.
 
Northwest1988
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:10 am

So over the course of the next year, what do we speculate some of the last -88 routes will be? Do you think they will stay pretty close to ATL on routes like to GSP, CHS, AGS, PNS and ECP? Or will there be some longer routes hang on like OKC and YYZ?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8238
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:23 am

Probably a little bit of both as they have to keep a balance in the hours / cycles ratio. At this point that is more driven by crew scheduling that so much the airframes themselves. Basically have to schedule lines of flying to get to achieve a certain amount of flying. Doing all short cycle routes won't get them all the way there.

I suspect airports like ICT that the only DL mainline aircraft they currently see is an MD88 or where the others primarily fly RJs will be some of the last to see MD88 flying in 2020.
 
ryanov
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:05 pm

Some interesting flights today with MD-88s: a DFW to LGA (1799), and an MSY to SFO (8947 -- charter?).
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8238
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:46 pm

1799 DFW-LGA-DFW is an A220 per delta.com that appears to be a flightaware glitch. It’s a regular scheduled revenue flight.

8947 is a charter, and DL has been using the MD88s for NCAA sports charters, typically basketball and hockey.


8
 
SELMER40
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:14 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
1799 DFW-LGA-DFW is an A220 per delta.com that appears to be a flightaware glitch. It’s a regular scheduled revenue flight.

8947 is a charter, and DL has been using the MD88s for NCAA sports charters, typically basketball and hockey.


8

Flightradar24 shows N958DL southbound and northbound.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
Northwest1988
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:05 am

I hope someone can get some pics of these planes on the west coast! I find it interesting to see them in places they seldom visit!
 
ryanov
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:50 am

To be clear, SELMER40 is talking about the LGA flight. Shows as a type and ship change, from BCS1 to MD88 and N108DQ to N958DL. The SFO flight seems to have been operated by N912DE, though it now shows cancelled (but when I was watching the map earlier, it seemed to make it all the way to SFO).
 
747-600X
Posts: 2554
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2000 3:11 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:45 am

SELMER40 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
1799 DFW-LGA-DFW is an A220 per delta.com that appears to be a flightaware glitch. It’s a regular scheduled revenue flight.

8947 is a charter, and DL has been using the MD88s for NCAA sports charters, typically basketball and hockey.


8

Flightradar24 shows N958DL southbound and northbound.


Yes, 958 ran the LGA-DFW-LGA flight. It did IAH-LGA-IAH-LGA-DFW-LGA on the 18th/19th. Now that is back to the A220. 958 will cycle in and out of ATL to ORD, CHS, VPS, LIT, etc...
 
ryanov
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:17 pm

Looks like one of the longer regularly-scheduled flights is YYZ to ATL?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8482
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:55 pm

Maybe. Looking at a few dates in January, ELP and PWM are now all MD-90s.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:16 am

tnair1974 wrote:
Thomas32125 wrote:
I am planning a trip to ATL for next summer, does anyone have the routes for the MD90 from and to ATL as I would love to get it onto my list and it will most probably be my last chance..

This was covered several weeks ago with lots of cities mentioned. You can go back to post # 140 and work forward. Needless to say as the fleet draws down, more cities lose Mad Dogs and this can change relatively quickly. For example, EWR had lots of MD-88s/90s until recently but they are virtually gone now.

I also have yet to fly on an MD-90. Not long ago, I booked an MD-90 ATL-SAT but it was switched to a 738 as the 90 apparently had gone tech. :roll: I will try again early next year.


Looking to fly AUS-ATL-EWR and now some 717s are popping up after being gone on the November schedules BTW. Flying EWR-ATL-AUS last month on the 739ER good God, it took forever to board that plane BTW and they were remote scanning at boarding because of the backup at the gate (at EWR).
 
Fex180
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:33 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:03 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe. Looking at a few dates in January, ELP and PWM are now all MD-90s.


ATL-PWM is all MD-88/90 through October, at least for now.
 
WN732
Posts: 823
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:39 am

They had a few days recently of only 737's at ELP. So I'm not too sure what the deal is.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:55 am

Looks like the DL MD-88 will be exiting the ORD service very soon. Sad to say.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
GatorClark
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:34 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:19 am

Northwest1988 wrote:
So over the course of the next year, what do we speculate some of the last -88 routes will be? Do you think they will stay pretty close to ATL on routes like to GSP, CHS, AGS, PNS and ECP? Or will there be some longer routes hang on like OKC and YYZ?


I know for at least the moment, we are getting them around 6-8 times a day in RSW. Not sure how long that will last though. RIC looks to be getting them through early/mid June, and MIA is getting them until early April.
 
ryanov
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:58 am

Where are they coming from to RSW? I couldn’t find any ATL flights on MD-88s without looking at SRQ.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 24

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos