Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:03 pm

At this point, everything is going to be on the table with fleet and scope. This is once again going to structurally change the airlines and it’s about survival, not petty things like scope. The recession was mergers, this will be right sizing the fleets. We’ll probably see allowance now for for the 175-E2. There just isn’t anything smaller left unless they go back to props. Small markets are really going to be hammered.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7328
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:36 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I still think they will be here going into this fall. Yes some will get parked earlier than planned. The plan was about 3-4 per month with about 20 to go for the fall season then a big mass retirement at the end of the year. I bet we get down to the 20 number pretty quick and then those last 20 keep going to Dec.

That makes no sense you might say. Run these planes out and save cycles and hours on the ones that are keepers. There are no C checks for these frames. That's about a $1M a check that can be put off on a 737NG or A320. I've heard 20 is about the smallest the fleet can get to and have a supportable crew rotation at a single base. So I see that many flying through the corona issue.

I could be wrong though. On March 30 there might be a long conga line flight of Md88/90 flying from ATL- BYH.


I have to ask, how much of that $1 million is parts or contracted services, and how much is internal labor? Because, if they're not furloughing mechanics, the internal labor costs are still there.

I really have no idea of the breakdown. Parts will be an issue for any in house C checks we do. There is only so many parts on hand to do the checks. Management has mandated zero outside parts purchases. I really can't recall many C checks I worked on where we never had to purchase outside parts from Boeing or Airbus. The Delta storehouse is big, but most structural parts are not kept in stock. the tax burden is too high. So I would expect a check airplane to be pulled in and once an issue was found it would be parked until this is over.

Thanks for your reply.

Trying to maintain aircraft while buying zero parts will be a challenge. It's going to be a test to see if the stock room has predicted the right parts to hold. Predictive analytics don't always predict correctly: https://www.autonews.com/sales/fca-revi ... eport-says

The idea of flying planes to their check dates then parking them is consistent with the idea of 'using up' remaining MD-88 and MD-90 time. We'll see if that's how this generally plays out. If they're going to park 600 (Mainline? Mainline + Endeavor? Mainline + all DL Connection?) there are many more to be parked.
 
N649DL
Posts: 815
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:14 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta might as well use up the remaining time on all it's MD-88s and MD-90s. They have very little value. Parking them will only mean Delta may have to use more valuable aircraft which should be preserved for use in the long term. The MD-88s and MD-90s will will have only a scrape value. I do not know what these aircraft have that Delta could use on their Boeing 717s.
Bastian knows what value they have for Delta and he may make adjustments to the permanent retirement of the aircraft. :old:


This. Most of the aircraft being parked (according to Planespotters) in heavy numbers are the A330s and 763s. With much International traffic being suspended, it only makes sense to put them in time out as they're cycle sensitive.

A bit surprising they haven't taken down more domestic 757s at this point as they are too, but it's probably too early to tell. I would think the M88s will soldier on until the end of the year but the M90 fleet to me are totally screwed right now as they've been problematic with parts for a while.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I have to ask, how much of that $1 million is parts or contracted services, and how much is internal labor? Because, if they're not furloughing mechanics, the internal labor costs are still there.

I really have no idea of the breakdown. Parts will be an issue for any in house C checks we do. There is only so many parts on hand to do the checks. Management has mandated zero outside parts purchases. I really can't recall many C checks I worked on where we never had to purchase outside parts from Boeing or Airbus. The Delta storehouse is big, but most structural parts are not kept in stock. the tax burden is too high. So I would expect a check airplane to be pulled in and once an issue was found it would be parked until this is over.

Thanks for your reply.

Trying to maintain aircraft while buying zero parts will be a challenge. It's going to be a test to see if the stock room has predicted the right parts to hold. Predictive analytics don't always predict correctly: https://www.autonews.com/sales/fca-revi ... eport-says

The idea of flying planes to their check dates then parking them is consistent with the idea of 'using up' remaining MD-88 and MD-90 time. We'll see if that's how this generally plays out. If they're going to park 600 (Mainline? Mainline + Endeavor? Mainline + all DL Connection?) there are many more to be parked.


With regards to that Fiat / Chrysler article, they are easily the weakest of the "The Big 3" domestic automakers, so no surprise they have a surplus of inventory. They also have some of the least reliable brands compared to Ford and GM at this point as well. Not saying they don't make good cars (The Grand Cherokee and 300 come to mind as excellent ones) but they're pretty inconsistent as an entire brand. The Corona Virus shouldn't stop people from driving though so I don't see as much of a dip in car buying compared to the Airlines. Much like after 9/11, if people have to travel and don't have to get on a plane, they're going to drive instead. Forget trains as well as they're probably many times dirtier than recycled air on a airplane.

Also you bring up a good point: Is DL accounting for the regional fleets with the "70%" fleet grounding schedule? Might be a good time to finally get rid of the CRJs if so.
 
TW870
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:39 am

This is going to be such an unusual situation since I would guess that by next week, DL will temporarily ground almost all of its aircraft. So at some point, you will need to restart all the fleets almost from scratch, which was different even than after 9/11, when except for the 3-4 day ground stop, all of the fleets were operational with qualified crew (even though they were flying around with massive losses).

I think you just cannot speculate at all right now as we don't know the marcoeconomic impact of the crisis, and we don't know how severe and long the disruption is going to be in the U.S., Europe, Africa, etc. Sadly, and as much as I adore the jets, I think the data we do have on the virus and the economy shows that there is absolutely no way the -88 or the -90 will be in revenue service after next week ever again at Delta. They already have vendors at SBD and BYH to scrap the aircraft, and they are going to want to simplify the operation for ramp up. I was at United during 9/11. It sucks, but folks will have the strength to get through it.
 
FLALEFTY
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:25 am

For those keeping track, today and through the end of tomorrow there will 4 more M90's and 9 more M88's stored, or scheduled to be stored at BYH. Add to this 1 M88 stored at BHM and 3 M90's stored in Mexico. By Saturday morning the active M90 fleet will be reduced to 19 aircraft and the M88 fleet to 36 aircraft. However, this is a fluid situation and the M88/90 fleet reduction appears to be picking up steam beyond the original (pre-COVID-19) plan.

Oh, and 9 B712's are stored, or scheduled to be stored at BHM by the end of Friday.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH
 
gdavis003
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:37 am

The one M88 that is already stored at BHM is N973DL, which is the one that was supposedly hit by a luggage cart at BHM the other week. Guess that was an easy one to send to retirement and write off. Tow it a few feet down the tarmac to its final resting place rather than fixing it up to send to another M88 facility.
 
alpine1989
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:02 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
For those keeping track, today and through the end of tomorrow there will 4 more M90's and 9 more M88's stored, or scheduled to be stored at BYH. Add to this 1 M88 stored at BHM and 3 M90's stored in Mexico. By Saturday morning the active M90 fleet will be reduced to 19 aircraft and the M88 fleet to 36 aircraft. However, this is a fluid situation and the M88/90 fleet reduction appears to be picking up steam beyond the original (pre-COVID-19) plan.

Oh, and 9 B712's are stored, or scheduled to be stored at BHM by the end of Friday.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH


Which 3 aircraft went to Mexico and where?
 
Northwest1988
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:45 am

Unfortunately, given the situation I bet the MD-88s will retire with absolutely zero fanfare. I think one day the last one will land without any hype whatsoever. I know it’s time to save money and I understand keeping everyone’s distance from one another, but it’s still a bummer that this is how the -88 will go out. They deserve a proper send off.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 19315
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:20 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
For those keeping track, today and through the end of tomorrow there will 4 more M90's and 9 more M88's stored, or scheduled to be stored at BYH. Add to this 1 M88 stored at BHM and 3 M90's stored in Mexico. By Saturday morning the active M90 fleet will be reduced to 19 aircraft and the M88 fleet to 36 aircraft. However, this is a fluid situation and the M88/90 fleet reduction appears to be picking up steam beyond the original (pre-COVID-19) plan.

Oh, and 9 B712's are stored, or scheduled to be stored at BHM by the end of Friday.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH

Thank you for the update. Unfortunately, this is just starting. I type this from California, under stay at home rules. DL must rapidly ground aircraft. The higher variable cost aircraft are the natural to park first. Sadly, this might mean MD-88/90 retirement without further fanfare.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7328
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:38 am

lightsaber wrote:
The higher variable cost aircraft are the natural to park first.


That is a misinterpretation. MD-88s/90s may not be higher variable cost because they aren't going to get any more heavy maintenance, unlike 738s and 321s which will eventually return to service. Other than fuel, all MD costs are effectively prepaid.
 
Lootess
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:34 pm

7 MD88s and 1 MD90 enroute to BYH today, line em up. That's how fast they are leaving the fleet. Prepaid or not.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2811
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:14 pm

Courtesy: Aero News

Delta Cuts Capacity, Grounds More Than 600 Aircraft

"In a memo addressed to "Delta Colleagues Worldwide" and posted on the company website, Delta CEO Ed bastian said the moves are being taken to protect the airline's future."

The link below has the story and his full memo:

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=c49434e7-6d45-4173-b068-eefa9127df4b
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 711
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:00 pm

So if I’m understanding this correctly, all DL MD-80/90 retirements are being moved up to this year as a result of the virus?
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1429
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:40 pm

Yesterday I picked up some DAL stock for my so-called retirement account.
 
danipawa
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:46 pm

So sad...
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10351
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:50 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
So if I’m understanding this correctly, all DL MD-80/90 retirements are being moved up to this year as a result of the virus?

MD-80 retirement was always this year. It wouldn’t surprise me if the MD-90s are gone by end of year now too.

I understand how a lot of their maintenance is “prepaid,” but getting rid of the MD-90s will allow DL to shed a pilot group type and not have to worry about on going support.
 
Lootess
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:01 pm

Add two more MD-90s going out to BYH, they won't make it until the end of the month at this rate.
 
FLALEFTY
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:08 pm

alpine1989 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
For those keeping track, today and through the end of tomorrow there will 4 more M90's and 9 more M88's stored, or scheduled to be stored at BYH. Add to this 1 M88 stored at BHM and 3 M90's stored in Mexico. By Saturday morning the active M90 fleet will be reduced to 19 aircraft and the M88 fleet to 36 aircraft. However, this is a fluid situation and the M88/90 fleet reduction appears to be picking up steam beyond the original (pre-COVID-19) plan.

Oh, and 9 B712's are stored, or scheduled to be stored at BHM by the end of Friday.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH


Which 3 aircraft went to Mexico and where?


There are 3 DL M90's stored at QRO - Queretaro, Mexico.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3086
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:09 pm

alpine1989 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
For those keeping track, today and through the end of tomorrow there will 4 more M90's and 9 more M88's stored, or scheduled to be stored at BYH. Add to this 1 M88 stored at BHM and 3 M90's stored in Mexico. By Saturday morning the active M90 fleet will be reduced to 19 aircraft and the M88 fleet to 36 aircraft. However, this is a fluid situation and the M88/90 fleet reduction appears to be picking up steam beyond the original (pre-COVID-19) plan.

Oh, and 9 B712's are stored, or scheduled to be stored at BHM by the end of Friday.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH


Which 3 aircraft went to Mexico and where?

I would guess Queretaro. DL has a joint venture MRO with AeroMexico there. I think the MD90 heavy checks and possibly C checks are done there.
 
FLALEFTY
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:16 pm

Lootess wrote:
Add two more MD-90s going out to BYH, they won't make it until the end of the month at this rate.


As I said in an earlier post, things are getting fluid with the M88/M90 retirement plans. It looks like they are sending even more to BYH throughout Friday and through Saturday:

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBYH

It is starting to look like DL is putting the old MD fleets down for good much sooner than expected.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 19315
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:46 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The higher variable cost aircraft are the natural to park first.


That is a misinterpretation. MD-88s/90s may not be higher variable cost because they aren't going to get any more heavy maintenance, unlike 738s and 321s which will eventually return to service. Other than fuel, all MD costs are effectively prepaid.

Looking at cists fir 4q2019:

https://ir.delta.com/financials/default.aspx

in millions
Salary $2,949
Fuel: $2,012
Regional airlines ex fuel $885
Contracted service $668
Depreciation: $622
Selling expenses: $488
Landing fees $440
Aircraft maintenance: $417
Profit sharing $387
Passenger service $313
Ancillary business/refinery $299
Aircraft rent $105
Other $455

Now about half of maintenance is overhaul, half is line maintenance and line maintenance is more for old types that it is first have a problem than fix it on a scramble instead of at say today's predictive maintenance to do at an a-check.

The MD-88 burns about 25% more fuel than a 738. JT8Ds were being leased on power by the hour to keep the fleet going.

Before sharklets, winglets, scimitar winglets there was a small cost advantage for 738/A320:
viewtopic.php?t=743237

Since then the engine overhaul intervals of the CFm-56 or V2500 were extended snd both the latest NG and CEO have predictive maintenance. Now the JT8Ds are not being overhauled. But that is a small cost savings. Same with avoiding aircraft overhaul.

The 738 had fuel burn cut 10% since that old post. Basically, the MD-88 burns 25% more fuel per hour and do to the lack if predictive maintenance costs about $100 more in maintenance per flight hour. There is a reason Airbus had to only offer predictive maintenance avionics upgrades on a delayed basis, they couldn't ship the new avionics quickly enough.

Engine PiPs, winglets, and other PiPs sell because they save money. But the MD-88 and JT8D have been static forever.

The MD-80/90 do indeed have high variable costs. If Delta retires their fleet, it means less economy of scale and thus higher costs. Otherwise DL would be overhauling JT8Ds and keeping MD-80s and selling newer aircraft.

Sadly, I think Coronavirus ended the viability of the MD-80/90 for not just DL, but the whole industry.
198 remain in registered, 73 registered to DL. There is no next operator or group to maintain the skill sets.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md80.htm

It is just time.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
gdavis003
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:50 pm

Some 712s headed to VCV tomorrow as well. DL sending some A320s and A319s to BHM along with 712s
 
hsaviation
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:01 pm

This is very sad - I will sorely miss this fleet. If the aircraft heading to BHM/BYH do not return to service, it will be another sad loss for the industry. I have made a graph showing how the retirement of these a/c has been going over time, since July 2017 - https://ibb.co/L9mtPvB - which assumes that the aircraft headed to BYH/BHM will not return back to service (something we, thankfully, cannot be sure of...? :) ). Notice just how many have been parked lately - it took them 11 months to do the same amount from July '17 to June '18.

I was planning to get on a final -88 and -90 this summer whilst on holiday in the USA (July), although this seems very unlikely right now.

Does anyone have any good info or idea as to if the aircraft will return to service or when the -88s new retirement date will be?
Thanks
Last edited by hsaviation on Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9438
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:04 pm

Lightsaber

Just looked at your list;

Excluding DL, You have Iran (40) and Venezuela (19). Not sure how either is still operating.

Apart from them, you have USA 12, Mexico 10, followed by Ukraine 7 and a few stragglers with under 5 each.

Hard to see any of these countries, less alone individual carriers having any interest In supporting the MD, that was before Coronavirus.

Only question is do they send them to the desert or scrap them where they are.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9438
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:05 pm

My understanding is that BYH is generally the end of the road.
 
Delta350
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:37 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:23 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
The one M88 that is already stored at BHM is N973DL, which is the one that was supposedly hit by a luggage cart at BHM the other week. Guess that was an easy one to send to retirement and write off. Tow it a few feet down the tarmac to its final resting place rather than fixing it up to send to another M88 facility.

It was hit at ATL and flew over that night. It was supposed to be one of the last remaining MDs before retirement.
Plane Spotter from the Magic City and Hartsfield-Jackson...(ATL)
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sadly, I think Coronavirus ended the viability of the MD-80/90 for not just DL, but the whole industry.
198 remain in registered, 73 registered to DL. There is no next operator or group to maintain the skill sets.


But there's other considerations. While it may be cheaper to operate a 738 than an MD-88 long-term, the cash spent up front on maintenance checks is significant, and if you're trying to conserve cash -- or alternatively, you don't have a lot of it -- parking the 738 and operating the MD-88 in the interim may be the best choice. There's many other factors; if DL were to return the 717 coming off lease, falling behind its scope compliance, it may not be a major point of contention at this period in time. But if it were to prematurely park the entire MD-88/MD-90 fleet, and pilots who have the seniority to transition toward other fleet types are left unemployed, that will be an issue (just like how UA ended up paying the furlonged pilots post-9/11 when it abruptly retired the entire 73S and 72S fleetds).

Obviously there's a number of costs involved with storing aircraft, and the longer "this thing" lasts, the less aircraft DL will need in the year(s) after things settle down. In addition to the remaining MD-88/90, DL has 35 A320, 22 non-NBA B757 and 17 B763 that were delivered between 1990-1993; there's also a number of B757 delivered in the mid-1990s that received many recycled interior pieces (from ex-Soing aircraft that were retired) when they were refurbished. These aircraft, in addition to B717 coming off lease, would likely form the pool that accelerated retirements came from. The aircraft within this pool that are due for a maintenance check in the near future... are likely to be permanently retired soon.
 
DALMD80
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:15 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
micstatic wrote:
I wonder once this virus passes how close the MD-88 will be to it's final nap


My money's on them not coming back at all.

Which is too bad... the skies will be much quieter and airplanes more bland without them.
Farewell to the Mad Dogs- the first week of June 2020 will be remembered by most of us here on A.net as the day the Mad Dogs left.
 
hsaviation
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:12 pm

bennett123 wrote:
My understanding is that BYH is generally the end of the road.

:cry:
Some mad dogs are lined up at ATL as well:
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/status/1241117566292066304
 
gdavis003
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:14 pm

Delta350 wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:
The one M88 that is already stored at BHM is N973DL, which is the one that was supposedly hit by a luggage cart at BHM the other week. Guess that was an easy one to send to retirement and write off. Tow it a few feet down the tarmac to its final resting place rather than fixing it up to send to another M88 facility.

It was hit at ATL and flew over that night. It was supposed to be one of the last remaining MDs before retirement.


They used it for a revenue flight after it was hit? Showing that it came to BHM as the last flight from ATL of the night and was not a ferry. DL2436 on March 3
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 19315
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:10 pm

DL is accelerating retirements of MD-80/90:
https://news.delta.com/ed-bastian-memo- ... our-future

There is another thread that DL will emerge as a smaller airline:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1443189

DL is differing maintenance per above link. So they will rotate aircraft in storage to minimize soend. So possibly some rotation back into duty while pilots are current.

bennett123 wrote:
Lightsaber

Just looked at your list;

Excluding DL, You have Iran (40) and Venezuela (19). Not sure how either is still operating.

Apart from them, you have USA 12, Mexico 10, followed by Ukraine 7 and a few stragglers with under 5 each.

Hard to see any of these countries, less alone individual carriers having any interest In supporting the MD, that was before Coronavirus.

Only question is do they send them to the desert or scrap them where they are.

It occurred to me DL does quite a bit of for profit pilot and crew training. Without the DL pilot pool in the rotation, does DL have enough of a customer base to keep the flight sims maintained and certified?

As long as 20+ Aircraft are in the fleet, the answer is an easy yes. Does anyone know how many external MD-80/90 crew DL trains in a year? As soon as DL stops the training, there is a group of MD-80 airlines that will have to find alternative training.

There is a reason it takes a large pool (300+) of an aircraft or one large customer or in the case of ramp up in production the airframer to keep an aircraft viable.

As noted, it is hard to see any other opperator stepping up to fill in what was AA's and DL's role.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DL is accelerating retirements of MD-80/90:
https://news.delta.com/ed-bastian-memo- ... our-future


I think pretty much everybody anticipated that retirements of the MD-80/90 would be accelerated. But the question is, how long will they last? A week ago I suggested the MD-80 would likely operate through the end of the summer, but with conditions worsening, I wouldn't be surprised if they're phased out by the end of spring. The MD-90, which were anticipated to be retired by the end of 2022, may solider on a bit longer.
 
FLALEFTY
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:30 am

I did a quick check of Victorville and yes, some DL717's, B763's and A321's are there, or headed there today through tomorrow. Also notable is WN is starting to park B737-700's there, too.

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KVCV

When the smoke clears I expect most of the parked 712's will return to service since they are pretty economical hub feeders, they still have 4-5 years left on their leases and it looks like the open CS1 & CS3 orders may get deferred. Many of the cities receiving service from M88/90's may lose mainline service altogether (e.g. ECP, DAB, GNV, MLB, VPS, etc.) and handed over to their regional partners.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3086
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:47 am

My guess is any MD88/MD90 that goes to BYH will never fly again. The rest who knows at this point.

As for the question on the sims. I doubt they will be retained after the last MD goes. There is just no market to support them. If they still operate the type, I seriously doubt Iran would send pilots to DL for training.
 
NWAJT8D
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 9:49 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:58 am

According to some Flightaware/FR24 research I've done tonight, the following MD-88s/90s are still in service as of at least tomorrow:

MD-88 (29):
N900DE, N901DE, N902DE, N903DE, N904DE, N905DE, N905DL, N906DE, N907DE, N908DE, N910DE, N911DE, N912DE, N913DL, N915DE, N916DL, N917DL, N966DL, N968DL, N971DL, N972DL, N974DL, N976DL, N978DL, N979DL, N990DL, N995DL, N997DL, N998DL.

MD-90 (14):
N912DN, N913DN, N916DN, N917DN, N918DH, N919DN, N922DX, N923DN, N924DN, N925DN, N926DH, N934DN, N960DN, N962DN.

Of course this is subject to change a lot in the next couple days and I expect more, if not all, to be retired within a week.

On a side note, a friend at Delta ensured me that Delta is still planning a retirement flight for the -88, so perhaps some will make it through all this.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 19315
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:43 am

When the economy restarts, I expect down gauging. RJs serving fewer flights on city pairs and those RJs used for cities that had RJ service.

B712s will eventually worked in with 738/A321 reactivated as time progresses, as well as increased utilization. The question is, will MD-90s be phased back in? I think that answer won't be known for 6+ months.

Dalmd88 wrote:
My guess is any MD88/MD90 that goes to BYH will never fly again. The rest who knows at this point.

As for the question on the sims. I doubt they will be retained after the last MD goes. There is just no market to support them. If they still operate the type, I seriously doubt Iran would send pilots to DL for training.

I agree many airlines wouldn't use DL's sims. I was fishing to see if there was any chance they would be retained. The answer is probably a no.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
cokepopper
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:01 pm

NWAJT8D wrote:
According to some Flightaware/FR24 research I've done tonight, the following MD-88s/90s are still in service as of at least tomorrow:


MD-90 (14):
N912DN, N913DN, N916DN, N917DN, N918DH, N919DN, N922DX, N923DN, N924DN, N925DN, N926DH, N934DN, N960DN, N962DN.



Wow. Wasn’t 14 the original # of MD-90’s?
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2876
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:47 pm

cokepopper wrote:
NWAJT8D wrote:
According to some Flightaware/FR24 research I've done tonight, the following MD-88s/90s are still in service as of at least tomorrow:


MD-90 (14):
N912DN, N913DN, N916DN, N917DN, N918DH, N919DN, N922DX, N923DN, N924DN, N925DN, N926DH, N934DN, N960DN, N962DN.



Wow. Wasn’t 14 the original # of MD-90’s?


No, DL originally took delivery of 16 MD-90s. Sadly, this is even fewer. :(

Jeremy
 
Lootess
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:08 pm

SESGDL wrote:
cokepopper wrote:
NWAJT8D wrote:
According to some Flightaware/FR24 research I've done tonight, the following MD-88s/90s are still in service as of at least tomorrow:


MD-90 (14):
N912DN, N913DN, N916DN, N917DN, N918DH, N919DN, N922DX, N923DN, N924DN, N925DN, N926DH, N934DN, N960DN, N962DN.



Wow. Wasn’t 14 the original # of MD-90’s?


No, DL originally took delivery of 16 MD-90s. Sadly, this is even fewer. :(

Jeremy


It's over, they won't make it out of march.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:51 pm

How come SBD isn't receiving any MD80s or 90s for storage as like usual?
 
KMCOFlyer
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:56 pm

NWAJT8D wrote:
According to some Flightaware/FR24 research I've done tonight, the following MD-88s/90s are still in service as of at least tomorrow:

MD-88 (29):
N900DE, N901DE, N902DE, N903DE, N904DE, N905DE, N905DL, N906DE, N907DE, N908DE, N910DE, N911DE, N912DE, N913DL, N915DE, N916DL, N917DL, N966DL, N968DL, N971DL, N972DL, N974DL, N976DL, N978DL, N979DL, N990DL, N995DL, N997DL, N998DL.

MD-90 (14):
N912DN, N913DN, N916DN, N917DN, N918DH, N919DN, N922DX, N923DN, N924DN, N925DN, N926DH, N934DN, N960DN, N962DN.

Of course this is subject to change a lot in the next couple days and I expect more, if not all, to be retired within a week.

On a side note, a friend at Delta ensured me that Delta is still planning a retirement flight for the -88, so perhaps some will make it through all this.


There are actually 30 MD-88s still flying. N970DL is currently on a revenue flight right now from ATL-JAX.
 
N292UX
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:30 pm

Keep track of the MD-90s and which flights (if they have any) to see which route was their final revenue flight.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14892
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:47 pm

I am quite sure the bean counters have made calculations. That includes pilot staffing, mx costs, no longer wanting a sub-fleet, long term fuel costs, a need to reduce the overall fleet to match expected downturns in service for the rest of the year, no buyers in the used market all leading to the scrapping of the DL's remaining MD series aircraft very soon. Likely there will be additional tax incentives with the Covid-19 related economic crises that may tip the financial balance as well. Yes, they were great aircraft, unless your are sitting in the back by the engines, but it is time for them to go.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:27 pm

DL717 wrote:
At this point, everything is going to be on the table with fleet and scope. This is once again going to structurally change the airlines and it’s about survival, not petty things like scope. The recession was mergers, this will be right sizing the fleets. We’ll probably see allowance now for for the 175-E2. There just isn’t anything smaller left unless they go back to props. Small markets are really going to be hammered.


I doubt that the E2s fly for DL mainline. No particular advantage over A220s. Would be adding another fleet type without gaining anything significant.

Everybody is getting hammered, but small markets that are worth it will continue to see RJ service. Since it's about whether or not anyone can fly as opposed to RASM vs CASM on a full plane..

It does surprise me to see 717s getting parked, but perhaps the "no outside parts" edict has caught some 717s.
 
ryanov
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:37 pm

They don't all have to fly every day to still be in service, obviously.

This isn't important in the grand scheme of things, but so bummed. I cancelled my last three flights just before the virus thing really took off, as it was clear it was the right thing to do. I'm not sure when the last time I was on one before that was; was just starting to be willing to pay a lot more for those itineraries given the end being so near.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9438
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:23 pm

BYH Blytheville, AR:
DAL9940/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N920DE
DAL9941/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N994DL
DAL9942/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N909DE
DAL9943/20MAR ATL-BYH MD90 N914DN
DAL9960/20MAR ATL-BYH MD90 N921DN
DAL9961/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N967DL
DAL9969/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N918DE
DAL9970/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N960DL
DAL9971/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N965DL
DAL9972/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N991DL
DAL9973/20MAR ATL-BYH MD88 N993DL

Friday per www.cactuswings.net

AFAIK BYH is a one way ticket.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 19315
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:43 am

jagraham wrote:
DL717 wrote:
At this point, everything is going to be on the table with fleet and scope. This is once again going to structurally change the airlines and it’s about survival, not petty things like scope. The recession was mergers, this will be right sizing the fleets. We’ll probably see allowance now for for the 175-E2. There just isn’t anything smaller left unless they go back to props. Small markets are really going to be hammered.


I doubt that the E2s fly for DL mainline. No particular advantage over A220s. Would be adding another fleet type without gaining anything significant.

Everybody is getting hammered, but small markets that are worth it will continue to see RJ service. Since it's about whether or not anyone can fly as opposed to RASM vs CASM on a full plane..

It does surprise me to see 717s getting parked, but perhaps the "no outside parts" edict has caught some 717s.

Some aircraft will be be parked due to that edict. I'd bet the impact is widespread.

Why the discussion on scope? Pilots see little reason. They want to preserve mainline jobs. I doubt scope will budge.

I do agree fly the lowest variable cost:
1. A330NEO lowest cost widebody, but few.
2. A220 easily lowest cost narrowbody.

I think a mix will be parked, but high variable cost such as the MD-80/90 will be tough to justify retaining.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
tommer419
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:57 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:45 am

DL posted their latest April schedule internally today and there are zero M90 flights on the schedule. M88 service appears to continue throughout the month from ATL to BDL, BNA, CMH, DAB, GRR, IND, LIT, MCI, MEM, OMA, ORF, PHL, PIT, RDU, RIC, SAT, SRQ, and STL. It’s the end of the MD-90, at least for now.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:45 am

lightsaber wrote:
jagraham wrote:
DL717 wrote:
At this point, everything is going to be on the table with fleet and scope. This is once again going to structurally change the airlines and it’s about survival, not petty things like scope. The recession was mergers, this will be right sizing the fleets. We’ll probably see allowance now for for the 175-E2. There just isn’t anything smaller left unless they go back to props. Small markets are really going to be hammered.


I doubt that the E2s fly for DL mainline. No particular advantage over A220s. Would be adding another fleet type without gaining anything significant.

Everybody is getting hammered, but small markets that are worth it will continue to see RJ service. Since it's about whether or not anyone can fly as opposed to RASM vs CASM on a full plane..

It does surprise me to see 717s getting parked, but perhaps the "no outside parts" edict has caught some 717s.

Some aircraft will be be parked due to that edict. I'd bet the impact is widespread.

Why the discussion on scope? Pilots see little reason. They want to preserve mainline jobs. I doubt scope will budge.

I do agree fly the lowest variable cost:
1. A330NEO lowest cost widebody, but few.
2. A220 easily lowest cost narrowbody.

I think a mix will be parked, but high variable cost such as the MD-80/90 will be tough to justify retaining.

Lightsaber


The lowest cost widebody for DL is actually the 767. The A333 beats the 767 on CASM, but not trip cost. The A332 loses on both counts, but is in the A330 family; that makes it easy to include A332s. Hasn't been happening lately because the A333 got better on range, which was the main reason to pick an A332 over an A333.

DL has definitely been parking a mix of planes, at least one A339 is parked, the oldest of which isn't 1 year old yet
 
hsaviation
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: DL retiring MD-80s quickly

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:18 am

tommer419 wrote:
DL posted their latest April schedule internally today and there are zero M90 flights on the schedule. M88 service appears to continue throughout the month from ATL to BDL, BNA, CMH, DAB, GRR, IND, LIT, MCI, MEM, OMA, ORF, PHL, PIT, RDU, RIC, SAT, SRQ, and STL. It’s the end of the MD-90, at least for now.

There are definitely less, however there are MD90s scheduled on ATL-CLE (2x daily), ELP (2x daily), SRQ (3x daily), BDL (4x daily), IAH (6x daily), PHL (2x daily) and BUF (4x daily) throughout April - although these are the only ones i can find :o

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos