Page 2 of 2

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:38 am
by WIederling
aldrigsomandre wrote:
I reckon we'll be seeing airlines become hybrid rail operators in the future as rail gets faster with maglev etc. (Especially in Europe.)
KLM is just igniting the fire.


Lufthansa had "trains with flight numbers" decades ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Airport_Express

else look out for
"Lufthansa Express Rail"

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:46 am
by LJ
afgeneral wrote:
It would be terribly inefficient to start building check-in facilities at all major train stations within reach of the airport. Sure, KLM could start opening facilities in Rotterdam, Delft, Utrecht, The Hague HS and Central, Eindhoven, Groningen, Maastricht, Cologne, Antwerp, Brussels, Paris etc. but it would be very costly. Need to hire people / take up space in the station / maintain everything etc..


KLM had check in facilities at Rotterdam and Antwerp in one point of time. There is nothing inefficient in having downtown check in facilities as there is ample space in most railway stations. The problem KLM has to tackle is how to ensure that the customer experience from the train to the gate (or better the hassle) is equal to that of a connecting flight. However, I recall that I read somewehre that already the majority of Belgian pax don't use the flight.

BTW as KLM is still part of the group managing the Dutch HSL, there is also a political angle to this story. The Dutch HSL concession is up to renewal next year. Given the bad performance in recent years, it has to please the Dutch goernment a little bit.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:52 am
by Turnhouse1
maps4ltd wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
SIVB wrote:

Even if that’s the case, which I think it is, still makes sense towards a future strategy in Europe on reducing short-haul flights by using train feed for long-haul. A combination of feeder flights and trains might be very efficient.
You can already see this type of connections in AMS, CDG and to some extent in MAD.
I think is a very positive development and we might see future growth in this type of approach in Europe’s hubs.


There will be a general increase in travel, using Wind/Nuclear powered trains for the parts which they can be used for is a good idea. Only burn oil for the long haul flights where there is currently no alternative.

Within England and Wales, domestic point to point traffic is now very limited the NCL/LBA/MAN to LHR routes are largely long haul connections as rail is <2hours (<3 from Newcastle). There is still some from Scotland, but HS2 could start to reduce this. Europe is further ahead, the USA & Canada behind.


North America being "behind" has everything to do with size. I'm not going to give a crap about the environment if it means choosing a 2-day rail journey STL-SFO instead of a 4 hour flight STL-SFO. It's a matter of convenience.


I was explaining that for point to point travel, rail travel can replace air travel completely for 2-3 hour journey times, there is more of a balance at 4 hour rail journey time. The point would be to replace <1hour flights, not 4 hour flights. Other than Boston-NY-Philadelphia-DC trains in the USA are not great.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:58 am
by flyingclrs727
Toinou wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's easy to build HSR when the government can just confiscate land and jail anyone who protests. Try building HSR in the Northeast Corridor in the US. It is one of the few places where an HSR could actually work. Unfortunately getting new rights of way to build one is close to impossible.


I guess that the construction of the highway system (and airport system) in the USA was made with some level of expropriation too.


Most of the land was undeveloped before the Interstate System. Also the speeds aren't anywhere nearly as fast as HSR. It is much easier to go around obstacles. HSR track s have to be much straighter. Even so there were lots of people who weren't happy about the routings of interstate highways. In rural areas a farmer's land could be divided in ways that could make it difficult to move farm machinery between them. In urban areas lots of communities got divided. Highway departments usually tried to locate new highways on the cheapest land they can buy. In most places that was where poor people and minorities lived.

In Texas where there is still large amouns of rural land available to route high speed rail ones, there is beginning to be opposition to the proposed privately funded high speed Japanese bullet train routes to connect Dallas-Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, and Houston.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 am
by Toinou
Undeveloped does not mean that nobody owned them. Your examples show quite well the kind of problem. I am not advocating for a right for the state (or others) to act by force, just pointing that even in countries, like the USA, that almost give a religious status to private property, common interested can sometimes prevail.

aldrigsomandre wrote:
I reckon we'll be seeing airlines become hybrid rail operators in the future as rail gets faster with maglev etc. (Especially in Europe.)


I have my doubts about maglev. They pose problems, one of which being that they are not part of an integrated system, like railway are. Of course they could become a part of it but only at impressive costs. That makes me think that it is more of an option for countries with very limited existing rail systems (or maybe in those which have system so crowded that building a separate system for the most frequented sectors makes sense).

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 am
by SwissCanuck
gadFly wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Looks like KLM was serious about its carbon emission reduction aims. It plans to reduce from five daily to four through a partner ship with NS Dutch Railways.


GVA and ZRH have been at it since 1987. That said, it is true that there may be fewer stations in between BRU and AMS (whereas GVA to ZRH includes transits through at least five cities including downtown Zurich).


No, they have had low-speed train service since 1987. There is no high speed rail. Yes the (previously-called) ICN does speed up a bit between Basel and Zurich, but only for about 15 minutes. It really doesn't count.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:38 am
by DominoxX
330lover wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
First of all, ZYR is not so well located in Brussels. It's in a shady neighborhood in the south and parking facilities are expensive. So it's convenient if you live in that neighborhood, but if you live in the suburbs, good luck getting there during the peak rush hour or on a day with a EU summit in town.
Then you are required to check-in at ZYR 30 minutes before the train departure time and it's not exactly convenient to run around with luggage, if you don't know the station well, you could be running around half an hour before you find the Air & Rail office.


At least for AF, this is not correct. You can check-in your bags at ZYR, so no need to hassle around with Luggage (unless you chose for it yourself).
So you drop your bags at ZYR, staff gets it on the train and from train to your flight and you pick it up again at final destination.

ZYR is very well connected by rail, all trains going to Brussels call at ZYR station. It would indeed be foolish to take a car to ZYR due to traffic and limited/very expensive parking possibilities,
Only problem is that the train ride to ZYR, if you have to buy a normal ticket, is quite expensive (just as any other train ride in Belgium).


Wow, yes it's in a shady neighbourhood but please take the tram from the station and you're in the centre in 5 MINUTES. ZYR is less than 2 hours from nearly every station in Belgium, only the province of Luxembourg is almost 3 hours. If you don't know the station there is plenty of staff and arrows that lead you to the AF check-in. If you live in the suburbs it's just as tedious to drive to the airport, or to Midi to only THEN take the IC to the airport. Otherwise you take the bus/tram/metro to the station and take your 'plane' there or take another train to the airport... And plenty of Belgians find the AF/KLM at Midi more convenient than the airport. And a careful passenger will arrive a bit ahead of time at the station's check-in. People also like to arrive well ahead when checking in at an airport.
You should have a chopper land you on your roof, mr. eek

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:40 am
by DominoxX
DominoxX wrote:
330lover wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
First of all, ZYR is not so well located in Brussels. It's in a shady neighborhood in the south and parking facilities are expensive. So it's convenient if you live in that neighborhood, but if you live in the suburbs, good luck getting there during the peak rush hour or on a day with a EU summit in town.
Then you are required to check-in at ZYR 30 minutes before the train departure time and it's not exactly convenient to run around with luggage, if you don't know the station well, you could be running around half an hour before you find the Air & Rail office.


Wow, yes it's in a shady neighbourhood but please take the tram from the station and you're in the centre in 5 MINUTES (or walk the twenty minutes, plenty of tourists and business people do it, no incidents). ZYR is less than 2 hours from nearly every station in Belgium, only the province of Luxembourg is almost 3 hours. If you don't know the station there is plenty of staff and arrows that lead you to the AF check-in. If you live in the suburbs it's just as tedious to drive to the airport, or to Midi to only THEN take the IC to the airport. Otherwise you take the bus/tram/metro to the station and take your 'plane' there or take another train to the airport... And plenty of Belgians find the AF/KLM at Midi more convenient than the airport. And a careful passenger will arrive a bit ahead of time at the station's check-in. People also like to arrive well ahead when checking in at an airport.
You should have a chopper land you on your roof, mr. eek

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:54 pm
by stl07
maps4ltd wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
SIVB wrote:

Even if that’s the case, which I think it is, still makes sense towards a future strategy in Europe on reducing short-haul flights by using train feed for long-haul. A combination of feeder flights and trains might be very efficient.
You can already see this type of connections in AMS, CDG and to some extent in MAD.
I think is a very positive development and we might see future growth in this type of approach in Europe’s hubs.


There will be a general increase in travel, using Wind/Nuclear powered trains for the parts which they can be used for is a good idea. Only burn oil for the long haul flights where there is currently no alternative.

Within England and Wales, domestic point to point traffic is now very limited the NCL/LBA/MAN to LHR routes are largely long haul connections as rail is <2hours (<3 from Newcastle). There is still some from Scotland, but HS2 could start to reduce this. Europe is further ahead, the USA & Canada behind.


North America being "behind" has everything to do with size. I'm not going to give a crap about the environment if it means choosing a 2-day rail journey STL-SFO instead of a 4 hour flight STL-SFO. It's a matter of convenience.

Yes but these distances are more like STL-ORD, and the high-speed train keeps getting delayed year after year. So yes, the US is way behind.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:50 am
by LurveBus
It’s actually quite amazing at how adding a BRU leg to almost any nonstop flight from AMS will immediately depress the price. It can almost encourage a person to just take a train to BRU from the Netherlands to catch the cheaper flight.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:16 am
by Toinou
SwissCanuck wrote:
gadFly wrote:

GVA and ZRH have been at it since 1987. That said, it is true that there may be fewer stations in between BRU and AMS (whereas GVA to ZRH includes transits through at least five cities including downtown Zurich).


No, they have had low-speed train service since 1987. There is no high speed rail. Yes the (previously-called) ICN does speed up a bit between Basel and Zurich, but only for about 15 minutes. It really doesn't count.


It is true that it is not a high speed service. But it seems to me that the relevant factor is how much time you need to reach the airport from the catchment area (and in this discussion, in the catchment area for long haul flights, thus negating the need to use a connecting flight). In the cases of GVA and ZRU, you can reach them from most of those places in two hours which is largely in the target, and from most large or middle sized cities, you don't event need to change train. It is probably more efficient than with many airports (like CDG) where you need to use local transport, thus adding lot of transit time. Many domestic flights to CDG could be replaced efficiently by a frequent direct TGV service to major French cities.

LYS is a good example of airports whose transport options seems good at first sight but are really not if you look further. It has an high-speed station where trains are mostly coming from Paris or further south in the Rhone valley. So, few people would use them to catch flight as they have airports that serve them better. It could make use for people in Grenoble but TGV trains cost lot more than local trains. For most people, going to LYS imply to go to Lyon city center and then use the express tram to the airport: one more transfer and the use of a dedicated, overpriced, transport.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:03 am
by workhorse
Toinou wrote:
LYS is a good example of airports whose transport options seems good at first sight but are really not if you look further. It has an high-speed station where trains are mostly coming from Paris or further south in the Rhone valley. So, few people would use them to catch flight as they have airports that serve them better. It could make use for people in Grenoble but TGV trains cost lot more than local trains. For most people, going to LYS imply to go to Lyon city center and then use the express tram to the airport: one more transfer and the use of a dedicated, overpriced, transport.


Actually, there are plenty of people from Avignon and even Aix-en-Provence that take the train to catch flights at LYS. AVN airport is pretty much dead for passenger service and flights from MRS are often overpriced. Every morning, you can see loads of people with large suitcases who get into the train at Aix-en-Provence TGV and get off at Satolas.

I am less familiar with the other branch, I guess MPL must drain a good chunk of traffic, but honestly, for someone from Nîmes it is just as easy (or even easier) to take one direct train to LYS than a train to Montpellier and than a tramway to MPL.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:11 am
by Waterbomber2
One more comment that I would lile to add is the poor hard product offered aboard the Thalys and TGV. The cabins look dated as if they had never been refurbished since built 20 years ago.
I don't know why but I've never seen newer rolling stock on the lines to CDG or AMS from either ZYR and ZAW.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:41 am
by WIederling
Waterbomber2 wrote:
One more comment that I would lile to add is the poor hard product offered aboard the Thalys and TGV. The cabins look dated as if they had never been refurbished since built 20 years ago.
I don't know why but I've never seen newer rolling stock on the lines to CDG or AMS from either ZYR and ZAW.


dated?

are they clean, the seats comfortable, do trains arrive on time all the time?
that counts. not bling.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:55 am
by SCQ83
LurveBus wrote:
It’s actually quite amazing at how adding a BRU leg to almost any nonstop flight from AMS will immediately depress the price. It can almost encourage a person to just take a train to BRU from the Netherlands to catch the cheaper flight.


It is not surprising. Every other EU legacy flies to BRU (EU). SN is comparatively a small carrier (specially long-haul) compared to KLM. So KLM needs to compete with everybody else for those connecting passengers. Also BRU is not a leisure airport. In summer season there is little tourism going to Brussels, compared with Amsterdam.

WIederling wrote:
dated?

are they clean, the seats comfortable, do trains arrive on time all the time?
that counts. not bling.


I agree. TGVs and Thalys can be quite disgusting. Even dangerous (I suffered thieves on board a couple of times; waiting for the police to arrive!). Nothing compared with high-speed trains in Germany, Italy or Spain which are much cleaner. Also they are very prone to delays (like German HST).

A while ago I used Thalys frequently and at some point they added an intermediary "cleaning service" (I know it because they put stickers everywhere on how they would improve the service). I assumed this would be (since Thalys are Germany/NL/Belgium/France) mostly about German customers (used to higher cleaning standards) complaining about dirty trains.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:59 am
by WIederling
SCQ83 wrote:
..... I assumed this would be (since Thalys are Germany/NL/Belgium/France) mostly about German customers (used to higher cleaning standards) complaining about dirty trains.


Deutsche Bahn today is absolutely low quality in every aspect ( cleanliness, readiness, punctuality, overprized ... ) .

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:03 am
by SCQ83
WIederling wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
..... I assumed this would be (since Thalys are Germany/NL/Belgium/France) mostly about German customers (used to higher cleaning standards) complaining about dirty trains.


Deutsche Bahn today is absolutely low quality in every aspect ( cleanliness, readiness, punctuality, overprized ... ) .


I agree about readiness, punctuality, overpriced... German trains are not pristine either, but ICE are usually still cleaner than TGVs.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:28 am
by WIederling
SCQ83 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
..... I assumed this would be (since Thalys are Germany/NL/Belgium/France) mostly about German customers (used to higher cleaning standards) complaining about dirty trains.


Deutsche Bahn today is absolutely low quality in every aspect ( cleanliness, readiness, punctuality, overprized ... ) .


I agree about readiness, punctuality, overpriced... German trains are not pristine either, but ICE are usually still cleaner than TGVs.

I am a "railway brat", based on my fathers occupation.
We did everything by rail. ( first in the family with a driving license :-)
But availability and service have gone down in the last 3 decades ...
I rarely go by rail today. ( and I have too much gear to take with me when I am on business errands anyway.)

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:31 am
by oldannyboy
Nothing really new here TBH....

The big news to me is this is happening from Brussels Midi and not Brussels Main (Centraal).

I mean, has anyone realized JUST HOW SHADY the station and surrounding neighborhood is??? I'd think about going there alone whilst having to drag my cases along, and [obviously] carrying my wallet/passport/$$$ etc. even in the middle of the day..
The place is also in shambles and very dirty. For those getting off the train there they're in for a minor shock, and will have to fend for themselves whilst they look around for taxis or public transport with a hundred or so potential muggers/pickpockets/scammers eyeing them up for evaluation....

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:41 am
by LurveBus
oldannyboy wrote:
Nothing really new here TBH....

The big news to me is this is happening from Brussels Midi and not Brussels Main (Centraal).

I mean, has anyone realized JUST HOW SHADY the station and surrounding neighborhood is??? I'd think about going there alone whilst having to drag my cases along, and [obviously] carrying my wallet/passport/$$$ etc. even in the middle of the day..
The place is also in shambles and very dirty. For those getting off the train there they're in for a minor shock, and will have to fend for themselves whilst they look around for taxis or public transport with a hundred or so potential muggers/pickpockets/scammers eyeing them up for evaluation....


Gare Centrale isn’t exactly the cleanest nor the safest place, either. Gare du Midi is at least well-connected enough so you can reach a lot of places without leaving the station. Plus, the Thalys, TGV, and Eurostar all terminate there.

But yeah, I’m always on high alert when passing by Midi. And it doesn’t really boost my confidence too much when I see the cops chasing dudes inside the station and not catch them.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:46 am
by workhorse
oldannyboy wrote:
Nothing really new here TBH....

The big news to me is this is happening from Brussels Midi and not Brussels Main (Centraal).

I mean, has anyone realized JUST HOW SHADY the station and surrounding neighborhood is??? I'd think about going there alone whilst having to drag my cases along, and [obviously] carrying my wallet/passport/$$$ etc. even in the middle of the day..
The place is also in shambles and very dirty. For those getting off the train there they're in for a minor shock, and will have to fend for themselves whilst they look around for taxis or public transport with a hundred or so potential muggers/pickpockets/scammers eyeing them up for evaluation....


I may have my Brusselian geography wrong but in my understanding, if something goes from Midi to Amsterdam, it necessarily stops at Centraal as well...

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:56 am
by SCQ83
LurveBus wrote:
Gare Centrale isn’t exactly the cleanest nor the safest place, either. Gare du Midi is at least well-connected enough so you can reach a lot of places without leaving the station. Plus, the Thalys, TGV, and Eurostar all terminate there.

But yeah, I’m always on high alert when passing by Midi. And it doesn’t really boost my confidence too much when I see the cops chasing dudes inside the station and not catch them.


I am not an expert in Brussels' stations, but I reckon the problem with Bruxelles-Central, in addition to fewer connectivity, is lack of space? That is a tiny, passing station; nothing comparable in size with South (Midi) or North. That must be the reason "everything" (TGV, Thalys, Eurostar) is at Midi.

However Bruxelles-Nord is even worse than Midi. I was there recently in the evening, and the place looked like out of The Walking Dead.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:59 am
by LurveBus
workhorse wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Nothing really new here TBH....

The big news to me is this is happening from Brussels Midi and not Brussels Main (Centraal).

I mean, has anyone realized JUST HOW SHADY the station and surrounding neighborhood is??? I'd think about going there alone whilst having to drag my cases along, and [obviously] carrying my wallet/passport/$$$ etc. even in the middle of the day..
The place is also in shambles and very dirty. For those getting off the train there they're in for a minor shock, and will have to fend for themselves whilst they look around for taxis or public transport with a hundred or so potential muggers/pickpockets/scammers eyeing them up for evaluation....


I may have my Brusselian geography wrong but in my understanding, if something goes from Midi to Amsterdam, it necessarily stops at Centraal as well...


Regular intercity trains will make a stop in Centrale and Nord. The Thalys and the new Eurostar service skip those stops.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:37 am
by jfklganyc
Looks like there is a slot for B6 at AMS after all! :)

Nice work by the hometown team!

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:10 pm
by GCT64
ro1960 wrote:
As mentioned further up in the thread CDG has its own HSR station and LYS, although not a "major airport", too.


As it happens, I'm on a TGV on my way to LYS right now, connecting to an Easyjet flight to LGW. High speed rail from a city centre to a decent regional airport is a super convenient way of travelling that means the city doesn't need its own airport to have good connectivity.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:14 pm
by Dutchy
jfklganyc wrote:
Looks like there is a slot for B6 at AMS after all! :)

Nice work by the hometown team!


Would be nice to see B6 @AMS, but no they won't.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:25 pm
by Elementalism
maps4ltd wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
SIVB wrote:

Even if that’s the case, which I think it is, still makes sense towards a future strategy in Europe on reducing short-haul flights by using train feed for long-haul. A combination of feeder flights and trains might be very efficient.
You can already see this type of connections in AMS, CDG and to some extent in MAD.
I think is a very positive development and we might see future growth in this type of approach in Europe’s hubs.


There will be a general increase in travel, using Wind/Nuclear powered trains for the parts which they can be used for is a good idea. Only burn oil for the long haul flights where there is currently no alternative.

Within England and Wales, domestic point to point traffic is now very limited the NCL/LBA/MAN to LHR routes are largely long haul connections as rail is <2hours (<3 from Newcastle). There is still some from Scotland, but HS2 could start to reduce this. Europe is further ahead, the USA & Canada behind.


North America being "behind" has everything to do with size. I'm not going to give a crap about the environment if it means choosing a 2-day rail journey STL-SFO instead of a 4 hour flight STL-SFO. It's a matter of convenience.


Exactly. A lot of people hopping on a train in Paris going to Moscow? The land mass size of the United States and Canada is massive compared to the EU. Think of individual countries like France, Germany, Poland, Italy ect as states in the United States or Canada. I live in the middle of the United States, nearly the middle of North American in Minneapolis. I travel 3 hours to the east coast by plane. nearly 4 hours by plane to the west coast. If I take a train it is a 2-5 day ordeal depending on where I have to connect. Trains west bound seem to send me to Seattle then back down the west coast. I dont have 10 days to spend traveling to the west coast when it can be done in a total of 8.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:34 pm
by Elementalism
Amsterdam wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:

There will be a general increase in travel, using Wind/Nuclear powered trains for the parts which they can be used for is a good idea. Only burn oil for the long haul flights where there is currently no alternative.

Within England and Wales, domestic point to point traffic is now very limited the NCL/LBA/MAN to LHR routes are largely long haul connections as rail is <2hours (<3 from Newcastle). There is still some from Scotland, but HS2 could start to reduce this. Europe is further ahead, the USA & Canada behind.


North America being "behind" has everything to do with size. I'm not going to give a crap about the environment if it means choosing a 2-day rail journey STL-SFO instead of a 4 hour flight STL-SFO. It's a matter of convenience.



Its not about size.
China is as big as the USA but has a huge high speed rail network. Beijing Hong Kong in 9 hours.
The same distance in the USA, New York to Dallas is a couple days with the train.

Its explained here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0JDoll8OEFE


It has to do with size and population density. China, Europe have more population density and thus makes more sense to build HSR. There is one spot in the US HSR would work. The NE corridor. Otherwise the rest of the country is too sparse to make it worth the effort. The United States geographical size is about the same as Europe. But with under half the population. China and the US may be close on geographic size. But with 1/3rd the population.

Now look at Canada with a massive geographic size and even less population.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:38 pm
by Elementalism
Toinou wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's easy to build HSR when the government can just confiscate land and jail anyone who protests. Try building HSR in the Northeast Corridor in the US. It is one of the few places where an HSR could actually work. Unfortunately getting new rights of way to build one is close to impossible.


I guess that the construction of the highway system (and airport system) in the USA was made with some level of expropriation too.



It was, in different times. When was the last time a major airport was built in the United States? DIA 25 years ago. And it was built in the middle of nowhere.

The Highway system and airports would have a hell of a time being built today in the United States.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:30 pm
by Ziyulu
What if they add their flight as a code-share partner with rail? It would definitely surprise a lot of travelers.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:14 pm
by Dutchy
Ziyulu wrote:
What if they add their flight as a code-share partner with rail? It would definitely surprise a lot of travelers.


Don't they?

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:57 pm
by Jetty
Dutchy wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
What if they add their flight as a code-share partner with rail? It would definitely surprise a lot of travelers.


Don't they?

They do, with Thalys from AMS to Antwerp and Brussels. Other airlines codeshare with from IC from Amsterdam to BRU.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:06 pm
by ScottB
Amsterdam wrote:
Its not about size.
China is as big as the USA but has a huge high speed rail network. Beijing Hong Kong in 9 hours.
The same distance in the USA, New York to Dallas is a couple days with the train.


Of course it's about size/distance. Nine hours by train on a route like Beijing-Hong Kong is impressive given the distance but it's still not even remotely competitive with air travel unless one is extremely price-sensitive, fears air travel or is into extreme virtue-signaling. That train runs once-daily in a gigantic city-pair market.

Elementalism wrote:
Toinou wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's easy to build HSR when the government can just confiscate land and jail anyone who protests. Try building HSR in the Northeast Corridor in the US. It is one of the few places where an HSR could actually work. Unfortunately getting new rights of way to build one is close to impossible.


I guess that the construction of the highway system (and airport system) in the USA was made with some level of expropriation too.


It was, in different times. When was the last time a major airport was built in the United States? DIA 25 years ago. And it was built in the middle of nowhere.

The Highway system and airports would have a hell of a time being built today in the United States.


Even in those times it wasn't always easy to get highway projects done. Quite a few highway projects (i.e. West Side Highway and Mid-Manhattan Expressway in NYC, Inner Belt in Boston, Golden Gate Freeway in San Francisco, the Somerset Freeway in New Jersey, etc.) ended up being cancelled due to vocal opposition.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:14 pm
by william
It comes down to cost, this summer EasyJet and AF's Hop was way cheaper than the RR alternatives ( I actually wanted to sample Europe's train service) crisscrossing Europe. I even tried to take TGV from CDG to downtown Paris, ended up taking the REB.

I know the Greenies would love this, but I have a hard time imaging the majority of EasyJet's and Ryan's pax moving to trains, and thats just 2 LCCs.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 pm
by PHLCVGAMTK
I'm distinctly unimpressed with my fellow Americans who are accusing KL of "virtue signalling", when UA and predecessor CO have done exactly this, flying exactly zero scheduled flights PHL-EWR on their own metal since 2002. Even on fairly mediocre Amtrak trains, this has made more than enough business sense to be one of *A's biggest beachheads into the PHL market, without expending a single slot at EWR. BRU-AMS is farther, in distance and in time, but KL clearly knows where its money is being made.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:37 pm
by usdcaguy
This is definitely an interesting development. Myself, I have flown BRU-AMS as a connection and will say that it's nicer to be able to fly as opposed to using the rail station. For starters, if you have considerable baggage that is hard to carry, it is much easier simply to grab a cab to Brussels airport and then use a trolley to get to the check-in counter. Once checked in, navigating Brussels airport is easy. The only time a train would be preferable in my book is when you only have a rollboard and maybe a laptop bag and are already in central Brussels and can walk or use the tram. Arriving at Brussel-Zuid can be a hassle with multiple bags, and I'm not even sure if trolleys are available at the station. Also, if you are staying downtown, the cab drivers will try to get you to pay more because they've been waiting for an hour for a fare and will be disappointed that you aren't going any farther than a 5-euro ride. Overall, KL is smart to try and push passengers to rail, as it wastes far fewer (of their) resources than providing air transportation, but the passenger experience can be less pleasant depending on what you have with you.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:49 pm
by flyingclrs727
[photoid][/photoid]
usdcaguy wrote:
This is definitely an interesting development. Myself, I have flown BRU-AMS as a connection and will say that it's nicer to be able to fly as opposed to using the rail station. For starters, if you have considerable baggage that is hard to carry, it is much easier simply to grab a cab to Brussels airport and then use a trolley to get to the check-in counter. Once checked in, navigating Brussels airport is easy. The only time a train would be preferable in my book is when you only have a rollboard and maybe a laptop bag and are already in central Brussels and can walk or use the tram. Arriving at Brussel-Zuid can be a hassle with multiple bags, and I'm not even sure if trolleys are available at the station. Also, if you are staying downtown, the cab drivers will try to get you to pay more because they've been waiting for an hour for a fare and will be disappointed that you aren't going any farther than a 5-euro ride. Overall, KL is smart to try and push passengers to rail, as it wastes far fewer (of their) resources than providing air transportation, but the passenger experience can be less pleasant depending on what you have with you.


Well perhaps KLM could get the train upgraded to have checked baggage that goes through to AMS.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:48 pm
by ScottB
PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
I'm distinctly unimpressed with my fellow Americans who are accusing KL of "virtue signalling", when UA and predecessor CO have done exactly this, flying exactly zero scheduled flights PHL-EWR on their own metal since 2002. Even on fairly mediocre Amtrak trains, this has made more than enough business sense to be one of *A's biggest beachheads into the PHL market, without expending a single slot at EWR. BRU-AMS is farther, in distance and in time, but KL clearly knows where its money is being made.


It's virtue-signalling when the airline claims that switching from a flight to a rail codeshare is being done for environmental rather than commercial reasons. In fact, this change is likely to result in greater environmental impact as the freed-up slot pair will almost certainly be used on a longer sector. I doubt CO ever claimed the Amtrak codeshare was done to reduce GHG emissions; rather it was done due to the scarcity of slots at EWR.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:10 am
by Blerg
Do we know what the BRU slot will be used for? Have they announced a new destination or...

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:33 am
by MrBren
william wrote:
I even tried to take TGV from CDG to downtown Paris


This is of course not possible.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:35 am
by SCQ83
william wrote:
It comes down to cost, this summer EasyJet and AF's Hop was way cheaper than the RR alternatives ( I actually wanted to sample Europe's train service) crisscrossing Europe. I even tried to take TGV from CDG to downtown Paris, ended up taking the REB.

I know the Greenies would love this, but I have a hard time imaging the majority of EasyJet's and Ryan's pax moving to trains, and thats just 2 LCCs.


Easyjet or Ryanair hardly compete on any competitive high speed route (minus 3 hours).

Way cheaper it depends. Trains have maximum capped price which id usually much cheaper than plane. So in those routes with competitive train prices, carriers cannot ask for a 300-euro last minute 1-hour flight when the maximum fare in 3-hour train ride is, let’s say, 150 euro.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:58 am
by thesaladdays
Blerg wrote:
Finally, as long as trains are running on electricity from fossil fuels, this can't be described as a win for ecology or the world. The day we get trains fueled by solar power is the day we can celebrate. This is just KLM freeing up a slot to launch another flight that will pollute the world and annoy residents with its noise.


Looking at live energy production stats in the UK:
Gas 39.1%
Solar 19.1%
Nuclear 18%
Wind 13.6%
Biomass 4.9%
Coal 1.3%
Oil 0%

So while the largest single source at present is a fossil fuel (gas), non-fossil fuel energy comprises a majority at 55.6% of current electricity production, i.e. plenty of trains are running on solar already. With enough investment in renewable energy this can only get better. It's all a matter of policy, if you want it, it can be done. If there is other political motivation at play, then naturally this can be delayed without end.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:28 pm
by Aliqiout
flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's probably faster to take the train. By the time you pass through security, you've added quite a bit of time to the trip. If there is only one daily flight for such a short distance, it makes sense to just standardize on train connections and have multiple connections possible per day.

One daily is being dropped (leaving 5?)

And the only people going through security for this flight are those connecting from flights from non "safe" counties (i.e., not almost all of Europe, U.S., Canada, Australia...)

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:06 pm
by DL747400
I'd be shocked if KLM ultimately forfeits the slot. What is the timing of the BRU flight that is being replaced by rail? Is it morning, midday, or evening? I'd bet that the slot get reassigned to an additional long haul flight.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:33 pm
by william
MrBren wrote:
william wrote:
I even tried to take TGV from CDG to downtown Paris


This is of course not possible.


Yes, I know, time was short and I at least wanted to get a short ride on the famed TGV.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:37 pm
by william
SCQ83 wrote:
william wrote:
It comes down to cost, this summer EasyJet and AF's Hop was way cheaper than the RR alternatives ( I actually wanted to sample Europe's train service) crisscrossing Europe. I even tried to take TGV from CDG to downtown Paris, ended up taking the REB.

I know the Greenies would love this, but I have a hard time imaging the majority of EasyJet's and Ryan's pax moving to trains, and thats just 2 LCCs.


Easyjet or Ryanair hardly compete on any competitive high speed route (minus 3 hours).

Way cheaper it depends. Trains have maximum capped price which id usually much cheaper than plane. So in those routes with competitive train prices, carriers cannot ask for a 300-euro last minute 1-hour flight when the maximum fare in 3-hour train ride is, let’s say, 150 euro.


From my experience this summer. EasyJet was cheaper than the DBB or whatever its called from Berlin to Frankfurt. Frankfurt to Paris cheaper on AF's Hop than taking the train. That's not opinion that's my wallet telling me its cheaper to fly. A shame too, I was looking forward to taking the German ICE train.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:48 pm
by SCQ83
william wrote:
From my experience this summer. EasyJet was cheaper than the DBB or whatever its called from Berlin to Frankfurt. Frankfurt to Paris cheaper on AF's Hop than taking the train. That's not opinion that's my wallet telling me its cheaper to fly. A shame too, I was looking forward to taking the German ICE train.


Frankfurt is a very business oriented market so summer is low season for other European cities (notably Paris which basically shuts down). I bet August is the slowest month in Frankfurt-Paris. AF will likely discount that route in summer.

What I try to say anyway is that where there is a competitive train (minus 3 hours), low-cost carriers with no connectivity mostly leave. Trains in most (if not all) EU countries have maximum capped prices. So carriers cannot ask for outrageous last-minute prices... otherwise those passengers walk into the train.

Trains in general do not have fire sales like Ryanair (10 euro ticket to Morocco style) but their prices do not go as high either. Maybe the same route in the same month will be between 10 and 300 EUR on a plane, but between 30 and 150 EUR on a train.

Re: KLM to replace one daily flight to BRU with Rail service

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:11 am
by gadFly
SwissCanuck wrote:
gadFly wrote:
afgeneral wrote:


GVA and ZRH have been at it since 1987. That said, it is true that there may be fewer stations in between BRU and AMS (whereas GVA to ZRH includes transits through at least five cities including downtown Zurich).


No, they have had low-speed train service since 1987. There is no high speed rail. Yes the (previously-called) ICN does speed up a bit between Basel and Zurich, but only for about 15 minutes. It really doesn't count.


Good point; I hadn't thought of the high speed element. It would have made my trips shorter!