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LAXintl
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Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:48 am

.
Airports of Thailand Plc (AoT) wants airlines at Bangkok's Don Mueang International Airport to switch to wide-body aircraft in a bid to ease congestion at the low-cost carriers (LCC) hub. The request comes as AoT struggles to manage the growing congestion at Don Mueang airport, which serves as Bangkok's second airport.

"This year, [Don Mueang] has reached its full capacity of 52 flights per hour, which equals to about 700-800 flights per day, and it isn't possible to expand or build another runway." Don Mueang airport is expected to reach its maximum passenger handling capacity of 40 million people by the end of the year. The airport is forecast to welcome some 41 million passengers next year, and 45 million passengers in 2023.


AoT urges wide-body use to save flight slots
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1750864


Its amazing how DMK growth has been so strong. To think the original concept was to close Don Mueang entirely once Suvarnabhumi opened, something that has been impossible to do as Suvarnabhumi itself lacks capacity leaving Bangkok with split airport model with domestic and LCCs preferring to utilize the closer to center DMK airport.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Sydscott
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:03 am

LAXintl wrote:
.

Its amazing how DMK growth has been so strong. To think the original concept was to close Don Mueang entirely once Suvarnabhumi opened, something that has been impossible to do as Suvarnabhumi itself lacks capacity leaving Bangkok with split airport model with domestic and LCCs preferring to utilize the closer to center DMK airport.


You've identified the problem at DMK right there. The LCC's tend to utilise high frequency narrowbodies which means that, of course, while the movement cap is full the airport itself can remain somewhat under-utilised. The bigger problem is what do the airlines at DMK actually do? It's not like Thai Airasia, Lion Air, Nok etc are going to want to run split airport operations but if they are at an airport that is full they can't grow.

Meanwhile BKK is already handling beyond its terminal design capacity with new structures under construction to alleviate some of that prior to the South Terminal complex opening. It'll be interesting to see what Thai Airways Group and Bangkok Airways does with the new terminal capacity and gates that are opening because neither have significant numbers of new aircraft coming online and both, being tenants at an airport where they can grow, need to be a in a position to grow.

Certainly interesting times ahead in Bangkok.
 
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janders
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:17 am

At this stage DMK is here to stay as even the most optimistic growth plans at BKK won't be around to absorb to 40+mil passengers DMK handles.

Too bad DMK is squeezed in so other than some terminal upgrades there is not much that can be done to raise the movement limits.
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vfw614
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:38 am

Can't see that happen. (Short-haul) LCCs and wide-bodies = non-starter.
 
TheEuphorian
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:57 am

4000 IQ way of thinking by the Thai government here.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:16 am

vfw614 wrote:
(Short-haul) LCCs and wide-bodies = non-starter.

Cebu Pacific says hi.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:01 am

janders wrote:
At this stage DMK is here to stay as even the most optimistic growth plans at BKK won't be around to absorb to 40+mil passengers DMK handles.

Too bad DMK is squeezed in so other than some terminal upgrades there is not much that can be done to raise the movement limits.


DMK congestion is why BKK was built in the first place. BKK can be expanded, but not enough to eliminate DMK
 
vfw614
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:28 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
(Short-haul) LCCs and wide-bodies = non-starter.

Cebu Pacific says hi.


Sure.

But who sees the likes of AisAsia, Malindo, Nok Air or Tigerair adding widebodies for short-haul just because DMK as the only airport in their networks is capacity-constrained? This is really wishful thinking and against core elements of the short-haul LCC model.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:51 am

Good for Thailand that DMK used up the available slots. What are the BKK expansion plans? When does BKK add a terminal and runway?

Lightsaber
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evanb
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:52 am

vfw614 wrote:
But who sees the likes of AisAsia, Malindo, Nok Air or Tigerair adding widebodies for short-haul just because DMK as the only airport in their networks is capacity-constrained? This is really wishful thinking and against core elements of the short-haul LCC model.


Last time I checked Air Asia (through Air Asia X) and Nok Air (through NokScoot) already operate 19 widebody aircraft exclusive in/out DMK. They're most on medium haul flights (4 to 5 hours), but sometimes on shorter 3.5 hour flights. If DMK becomes slot controlled there is no reason that they won't start operating them on even shorter flights.
 
evanb
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:54 am

lightsaber wrote:
Good for Thailand that DMK used up the available slots. What are the BKK expansion plans? When does BKK add a terminal and runway?


They're building a new terminal as we speak.
 
tphuang
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:06 pm

Maybe they should expand the facility first. Everytime I passed through DMK or BKK, the immigration halls are so over crowded. I can't imagine more wide bodies passing through that area
 
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lydh
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:08 pm

DMK is such an awful facility. The oldest operating airport in Asia and it shows; immigration queues that make Suvarnabhumi's look tame. To say nothing of how bad the traffic is from there to anywhere in Bangkok south of Sukhumvit Road—there are traffic jams inside the drop off/pick up area!
 
evanb
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:10 pm

tphuang wrote:
Maybe they should expand the facility first. Everytime I passed through DMK or BKK, the immigration halls are so over crowded. I can't imagine more wide bodies passing through that area


The immigration lines are mostly a function of Thailand deciding to implement biometric collections. Hopefully they get a better grip on this. I don't think it's really a function of infrastructure.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Wow, this must be an A.netter's wet dream!
 
Toinou
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:07 pm

I probably will get a rough moment for saying this here.
Shouldn't the Thai government speed up the projects of land transport improvement (especially rail ones) to limit the demand for domestic flight which would automatically make room at DMK?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:31 pm

Toinou wrote:
I probably will get a rough moment for saying this here.
Shouldn't the Thai government speed up the projects of land transport improvement (especially rail ones) to limit the demand for domestic flight which would automatically make room at DMK?

First you have to find money for it. It's not like HSR costs you nothing. In fact it costs billions of dollars to build, let alone operating and maintaining the network.

Thailand is never known to have a good railway system after all.

Michael
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:17 pm

Does the government of Thailand grant slots (subject to availability)? Is there a secondary market for slot sales & purchases? If carriers had to buy them at auction they would make better use of a scarce resource.

LHR and LGW show that upgauging has utility, but asking carriers to use aircraft types they don't presently operate won't get very far.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:27 pm

I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it wouldn't work, but what about keeping Thai at BKK, but move all other International flights to DMK and move all domestic flights to BKK. I mean most international airlines use larger aircraft anyway. Also could DMK not build another terminal or two where the Cargo Apron is now and move more Cargo to BKK?
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:41 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it wouldn't work, but what about keeping Thai at BKK, but move all other International flights to DMK and move all domestic flights to BKK. I mean most international airlines use larger aircraft anyway. Also could DMK not build another terminal or two where the Cargo Apron is now and move more Cargo to BKK?

Simple, the civil side of DMK is a lot smaller than BKK, both in terms of apron area and terminal buildings. If you have seen the mess that is Terminal 1 (international) at DMK, you would prefer BKK any time. BKK is also newer and aesthetically more pleasing, which would better suit premium international traffic over DMK. Domestically, LCC dominates the market, so it doesn't need such a nice terminal that BKK offers, although DMK Terminal 2 has been renovated and looks a lot better than Terminal 1.
 
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:26 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Toinou wrote:
I probably will get a rough moment for saying this here.
Shouldn't the Thai government speed up the projects of land transport improvement (especially rail ones) to limit the demand for domestic flight which would automatically make room at DMK?

First you have to find money for it. It's not like HSR costs you nothing. In fact it costs billions of dollars to build, let alone operating and maintaining the network.

Thailand is never known to have a good railway system after all.

Michael

Well China is willing to finance rail construction in Thailand, although that come with other costs and have also resulted in political problems in Thailand in the past.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
questions
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 pm

Can someone provide a quick history of how the situation got to this point?

Why wasn’t DMK not closed down? Was the required capacity at BKK underestimated? Was investment in expanding BKK pushed off too long? If current expansion at BKK will not negate the need for DMK, is there a plan?

(Yes, I know. It’s Thailand.)
 
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mercure1
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:20 pm

Pretty simple. When BKK opened, DMK closed.
Very soon however operational and safety problems, along with crowding and high cost for airlines created pressure to reopen DMK.
Within 6 months DMK was reopened for domestic services.
Eventually Thai government actually encouraged LCCs, domestic and charters to use DMK to ease pressure on BKK which was already operating at capacity.
Today you have 2 airports that are at capacity with no chance of consolidation.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:08 pm

The market will sort this one out. 737-800 flight become A321 flights.
A321 flights become A330 flights. No different to what happened in
places like HKG and TYO. Slots become too valuable and although LCC may hate it,
they'll be forced to upgadge. LHR has far far more traffic. Do you see anybody operating
12 CRJ's a day on a route into there? Of course not. For flights longer than 2 hrs they can
easily turn an A330 around in acceptable time.
 
thevery
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:40 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
LHR has far far more traffic. Do you see anybody operating
12 CRJ's a day on a route into there?

4 of 11 AMS-LHR flights are operated by KLM Cityhopper with E190.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:35 pm

Thats not a 50 seater
 
JHwk
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:43 am

BKK’s Master Plan called for a midfield concourse (under construction) plus a south terminal to accommodate 100MAP; there is plenty of opportunity for growth.

The problem (as always) is that the government puts off action for decades and you end up with over-taxed infrastructure. The Asian financial crisis played a big part in the original delays, but the bulk of the issue is and always has been politics.

Now the plan is to link UTP, BKK, and DMK with a high-speed train. We’ll see how that goes...
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:46 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it wouldn't work, but what about keeping Thai at BKK, but move all other International flights to DMK and move all domestic flights to BKK. I mean most international airlines use larger aircraft anyway. Also could DMK not build another terminal or two where the Cargo Apron is now and move more Cargo to BKK?

Simple, the civil side of DMK is a lot smaller than BKK, both in terms of apron area and terminal buildings. If you have seen the mess that is Terminal 1 (international) at DMK, you would prefer BKK any time. BKK is also newer and aesthetically more pleasing, which would better suit premium international traffic over DMK. Domestically, LCC dominates the market, so it doesn't need such a nice terminal that BKK offers, although DMK Terminal 2 has been renovated and looks a lot better than Terminal 1.


Aside from the fact that the apron space is smaller at DMK, which I'm not sure would be a major problem anyway since most international carriers only send 1 to 2 flights a day into BKK, and the image issue of it being an older facility, I would think making the switch of international carriers to DMK and moving all LCC carriers to BKK with Thai and maybe a bit of modernization and taking over some of the Cargo space for extra terminal area at DMK, it seems to me that both airports would probably be operating under capacity with that sort of arrangement, though I do not know what the pax numbers are for the international carriers into BKK.

Also yes, I have flown into Terminal 1 before BKK opened and yes it was probably the longest wait at immigration I had ever experienced, but I don't remember the terminal its self being that much of an eye sore back then, and I recently flew out of their as well and I really didn't think it looked that bad, but yes it is in no way as aesthetically pleasing as BKK.

I'm really just interested if it's theoretically possible that it could work with that type or arrangement.
Last edited by xjetflyer2001 on Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
evanb
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:58 am

mercure1 wrote:
Pretty simple. When BKK opened, DMK closed.
Very soon however operational and safety problems, along with crowding and high cost for airlines created pressure to reopen DMK.
Within 6 months DMK was reopened for domestic services.
Eventually Thai government actually encouraged LCCs, domestic and charters to use DMK to ease pressure on BKK which was already operating at capacity.
Today you have 2 airports that are at capacity with no chance of consolidation.


That's a little bit of a misrepresentation. DMK closed and BKK opened during September 2006. DMK reopened to a very small number of domestic flights 6 months later. However, the big shift of LCC flights to DMK only occurred in early 2012. The data shows it out with DMK handling about 5 million passengers per year from 2007 until 2012, and handled 16 million in 2012 and now 41 million in 2018.
 
Toinou
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:12 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Toinou wrote:
I probably will get a rough moment for saying this here.
Shouldn't the Thai government speed up the projects of land transport improvement (especially rail ones) to limit the demand for domestic flight which would automatically make room at DMK?

First you have to find money for it. It's not like HSR costs you nothing. In fact it costs billions of dollars to build, let alone operating and maintaining the network.

Thailand is never known to have a good railway system after all.

Michael


It is not like a third airport would be cheap either...
In fact, Thai rail network is not bad. It just suffer from underinvestment in the last decades. If they had invested in it only a fraction on what went to airports and road, it would be excellent. So it would be a simple question of balancing the state funding.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:07 pm

Speaking of NokScoot, what's the latest news of them? I read reports before that they were struggling due to intense competition as well as Nok's own financial issues. Were those reports accurate?
 
DWC
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:50 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Toinou wrote:
I probably will get a rough moment for saying this here.
Shouldn't the Thai government speed up the projects of land transport improvement (especially rail ones) to limit the demand for domestic flight which would automatically make room at DMK?

First you have to find money for it. It's not like HSR costs you nothing. In fact it costs billions of dollars to build, let alone operating and maintaining the network.
Thailand is never known to have a good railway system after all.

I disagree, for a country of that GDP, they have an excellent network, 4 major sectors to cover ALL major cities.
They are even always on time, telling from experience as I lived there.
Of course, they are not as fancy as Japan's or DB's, no speed train either, but their 2nd class is roomier than Europe´s, first class like in the old days, LH trains all have a Restaurant car, and it is cheap & more confortable than all of Thailand's snazzy double-decker buses. You can actually ride from Singapore all the way to the borders of Myanmar, Laos or Cambodia. I consider it on a level with Amtrak.

Because of local GDP, they cannot upgrade to first world standards, because it is so expensive that tickets would be unaffordable to the many. Crucially, and that has been a problem in past decades, Thailand struggles to produce enough electricity cheap enough, most dams are far away, so they use fuel. There is no way to use fuel affortably to electrify the network, so all engines are Diesel, which may look to some as underdevelopped, but hey, they do the job asked.

Toinou wrote:
In fact, Thai rail network is not bad. It just suffer from underinvestment in the last decades. If they had invested in it only a fraction on what went to airports and road, it would be excellent. So it would be a simple question of balancing the state funding.

Correct.
But they did spend everytime where was necessary. You can travel anywhere in Thailand, all roads are excellent, not like in the 3 neighbouring countries.
So for a country of that GDP/capita, they did what the US did with the federal highway system & Amtrak countrywide, I say kudos to Thailand. :)
Last edited by DWC on Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DWC
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:59 pm

lydh wrote:
DMK is such an awful facility. The oldest operating airport in Asia and it shows; immigration queues that make Suvarnabhumi's look tame. To say nothing of how bad the traffic is from there to anywhere in Bangkok south of Sukhumvit Road—there are traffic jams inside the drop off/pick up area!

First of all, Don Muang was BKK, the IATA code was then given to Suvarnabhumi ( pronounce Suvarnaboom ) when it opened.
Two, DMK, Don Muang's second code, is not one terminal but three if my memory serves me right, I still remember how the old terminal that went to domestic paled in comparison to the New one when it opened : has aged no doubt. Then there was the military/Gov terminal somewhere else along the single runway.
Three : I am not sure BKK is the oldest operating in Asia, many if the colonial ones built by the Brits are still in India, Myanmar. Not that it matters, but I cannot imagine what present day BKK would be without DMK.

Toinou wrote:
It is not like a third airport would be cheap either...

Actually UTP is Bangkok's THIRD airport, UTAPAO, used to be military only, now officially opened to commercial aviation to ease the problems of BKK & DMK., no need to fly there if one is going to such touristic destinations as Patthaya, Jomtien or Rayong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Tapao_I ... al_Airport
http://www.utapao.com/
 
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spinkid
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:39 pm

evanb wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Pretty simple. When BKK opened, DMK closed.
Very soon however operational and safety problems, along with crowding and high cost for airlines created pressure to reopen DMK.
Within 6 months DMK was reopened for domestic services.
Eventually Thai government actually encouraged LCCs, domestic and charters to use DMK to ease pressure on BKK which was already operating at capacity.
Today you have 2 airports that are at capacity with no chance of consolidation.


That's a little bit of a misrepresentation. DMK closed and BKK opened during September 2006. DMK reopened to a very small number of domestic flights 6 months later. However, the big shift of LCC flights to DMK only occurred in early 2012. The data shows it out with DMK handling about 5 million passengers per year from 2007 until 2012, and handled 16 million in 2012 and now 41 million in 2018.


That is accurate. 2011-2012 was when Bangkok experienced extreme flooding that impacted BKK operations for some time. I think DMK only had Nok Air, Orient Thai and a couple others operating at one point. I used it in 2009 and it was almost a ghost town. After the flooding, they realized they needed both airports.

China is planning a rail network that will go through Laos and Thailand all and eventually connect Kunming to Singapore. Its quite controversial, but its the plan.

and I took Thai Railways and was pretty happy on an overnight train to Udon Thani and eventually crossing to Laos. Its a pretty fun experience! Considering many of their neighbors don't have functioning railroads Thailand is doing ok for itself with its transportation network.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:47 am

DWC wrote:
lydh wrote:
DMK is such an awful facility. The oldest operating airport in Asia and it shows; immigration queues that make Suvarnabhumi's look tame. To say nothing of how bad the traffic is from there to anywhere in Bangkok south of Sukhumvit Road—there are traffic jams inside the drop off/pick up area!

First of all, Don Muang was BKK, the IATA code was then given to Suvarnabhumi ( pronounce Suvarnaboom ) when it opened.
Two, DMK, Don Muang's second code, is not one terminal but three if my memory serves me right, I still remember how the old terminal that went to domestic paled in comparison to the New one when it opened : has aged no doubt. Then there was the military/Gov terminal somewhere else along the single runway.
Three : I am not sure BKK is the oldest operating in Asia, many if the colonial ones built by the Brits are still in India, Myanmar. Not that it matters, but I cannot imagine what present day BKK would be without DMK.

Toinou wrote:
It is not like a third airport would be cheap either...

Actually UTP is Bangkok's THIRD airport, UTAPAO, used to be military only, now officially opened to commercial aviation to ease the problems of BKK & DMK., no need to fly there if one is going to such touristic destinations as Patthaya, Jomtien or Rayong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Tapao_I ... al_Airport
http://www.utapao.com/


Suvarnabhumi airport is actually prounounced (su-wan-na-poom)

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the ... world.html

The Oldest Airports In The World
Rank Airport Location Founding Year
1 College Park Airport Maryland, US 1909
2 Ljungbyhed Airport Sweden 1910
3 Hamburg Airport Germany 1911
4 Shoreham Airport UK 1911
5 Bucharest Aurel Vlaicu Airport Romania 1912
6 Bremen Airport Germany 1913
7 Don Mueang International Airport Bangkok, Thailand 1914
8 Rome Ciampino Airport Italy 1916
9 Amsterdam Airport Schiphol Netherlands 1916
10 Paris Le-Bourget Airport France 1919
11 Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport Australia 1920

Oldest 11 airports in the wolrd, though some are not commercial airports
 
DWC
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:33 am

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Suvarnabhumi airport is actually prounounced (su-wan-na-poom)

Rank Airport Location Founding Year
1 College Park Airport Maryland, US 1909
2 Ljungbyhed Airport Sweden 1910
3 Hamburg Airport Germany 1911
4 Shoreham Airport UK 1911
5 Bucharest Aurel Vlaicu Airport Romania 1912
6 Bremen Airport Germany 1913
7 Don Mueang International Airport Bangkok, Thailand 1914
8 Rome Ciampino Airport Italy 1916
9 Amsterdam Airport Schiphol Netherlands 1916
10 Paris Le-Bourget Airport France 1919
11 Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport Australia 1920

Oldest 11 airports in the wolrd, though some are not commercial airports

Correct on both counts. :bigthumbsup:
I forgot to delete that r, my point was to show not to pronounce the final "i".
There is no standard transliteration of Thai, the AR instead of A comes because in สุวรรณภูมิ, รร is graphically a double R, called roo hang ( "r like in hang" ) but actually pronounced as a short "a", in addition to many silent ร in either street or formal Thai, for different reasons "krap". I use the RTGS system, which is phonetically straight & increasingly used by diplomacy, but hardly ever by the English community that resorts to any more palatable fancy spellings. Now, the RTGS has a major drawback : one cannot use it to write it back in Thai, has an extricate etymological spelling next to which French is nothing in comparison ;)

BKK : that is quite a surprise, yet not meaningful come to think, there must have been many more older airports now replaced by others, specially in the US & Russia ( Sikorski ). DMK today is another animal to whatever strip in 1914, I am not even sure how "international" it was in 1914 : how many refueling stops needed to say Sydney or Le Bourget ?
Last edited by DWC on Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Fiend
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:33 am

Toinou wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Toinou wrote:
I probably will get a rough moment for saying this here.
Shouldn't the Thai government speed up the projects of land transport improvement (especially rail ones) to limit the demand for domestic flight which would automatically make room at DMK?

First you have to find money for it. It's not like HSR costs you nothing. In fact it costs billions of dollars to build, let alone operating and maintaining the network.

Thailand is never known to have a good railway system after all.

Michael


It is not like a third airport would be cheap either...
In fact, Thai rail network is not bad. It just suffer from underinvestment in the last decades. If they had invested in it only a fraction on what went to airports and road, it would be excellent. So it would be a simple question of balancing the state funding.


I've travelled a bit by train in Thailand as I prefer rail travel to the VIP buses, but the Thai railway network needs a huge amount of investment, most of the network is single track... They are investing in High Speed Rail but it's likely it will take a long time to build.... The DMK -UTP high speed link is forecast to open in 2024.
BAC 1-11, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, A350, A380, B737, B747, B757, B777, B787, L1011, Fokker 100, ATR 72, MD83
 
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Arq
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:57 am

As a local, let me share a bit of information about my country, and a bit of my opinion

- BKK is planned and built before Low Cost Carrier boom in Asia. It opened in 28 Sep 2006 while our first LCC, Thai Air Asia start its operation in 2004. At that time, flying is a luxury and nobody (including me) imagine themselves to fly so often. Note that our country is a small one, land transportation took no more than 12 hours from Bangkok and in most cases take just 5-8 hours, Flying is nice but we always have cheaper alternative. So, I personally believe that BKK is not design for such sharp increase in demand.
- When we are talking about land transportation, a coach service is more dominant here, as it can reach almost every part of the country while train service somewhat larger route. We have excellent coach service here and some "VIP class" coach install shell seat similar to Airlines's Long haul business class.
- DMK is much more users friendly than BKK. It is just 10 minutes bus connection from nearest BTS Skytrain network and our new Red Line train is going to complete soon. Some travelers prefer DMK over BKK so DMK need to be in operation.
- State Railway of Thailand is a joke. Our Airport Raillink to Suvarnabhumi break down every other day and they haven't got a gut to take a proper maintenance. It's the accident waiting to happen. But things is likely to improve once the new Airport Rail Link connecting UTP, BKK, DMK is completed
- Slow immigration, stage off Airport disrepair are pretty obvious and I would like to put the blame on respective government agency. They are slow and heavily corrupted (embarrassed about it but that's the truth). I don't know what happened to DMK as it was always well maintained in the past. It was renovated even slightly before BKK is opened. I guess that they just can't cope with the capacity anymore.
- As mentioned by some, Satellite Concourse is nearly complete. Terminal 2 design has been released a few months ago and cause a wide criticism as it is far different from its Master plan with some reason (money and corruption in Airport Authority of Thailand is my guess). That plan seemed to be shelved as we speak, but it needs to be build anyway. Let's wait and see.
- As far as I am aware, Thai Air Asia have got some kind of commitment with aircraft lesser that their A330 will fly flights longer than 5 hours only. So, assuming that my knowledge is true then no chance to see their A330 flying domestic. But they are ordering some 321 now. Nok Air and Lion Air seemed to have no problem flying WB aircraft around, it's just the matter of margin and profit.
-Thai Airways and Thai Smile will NOT move domestic operation to DMK. TG has made it clear that they will only connect their international passengers to CNX, HKT and KVB, with much lower frequency than other airlines. The remaining destination/ timeslot were given to Thai Smiles. So, they are to be at BKK.

Did I missed something? Can't think of any other point to add. But you guys can feel free to sing out if I can be of any useful
 
Toinou
Posts: 54
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:12 am

In comparison to railways in other countries in the region, I agree that Thai railways are rather good. It works better than those of Burma or Cambodia and probably is on par with those of Vietnam. With last years improvements, Malaysian network is probably better.

What I was saying is that, on it's current state, Thai network is not to such a level that it could attract middle class travellers who are using lots of domestic flight which are a cause for congestion at DMK.
 
TheEuphorian
Posts: 352
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:15 am

Arq wrote:
As a local, let me share a bit of information about my country, and a bit of my opinion

- BKK is planned and built before Low Cost Carrier boom in Asia. It opened in 28 Sep 2006 while our first LCC, Thai Air Asia start its operation in 2004. At that time, flying is a luxury and nobody (including me) imagine themselves to fly so often. Note that our country is a small one, land transportation took no more than 12 hours from Bangkok and in most cases take just 5-8 hours, Flying is nice but we always have cheaper alternative. So, I personally believe that BKK is not design for such sharp increase in demand.
- When we are talking about land transportation, a coach service is more dominant here, as it can reach almost every part of the country while train service somewhat larger route. We have excellent coach service here and some "VIP class" coach install shell seat similar to Airlines's Long haul business class.
- DMK is much more users friendly than BKK. It is just 10 minutes bus connection from nearest BTS Skytrain network and our new Red Line train is going to complete soon. Some travelers prefer DMK over BKK so DMK need to be in operation.
- State Railway of Thailand is a joke. Our Airport Raillink to Suvarnabhumi break down every other day and they haven't got a gut to take a proper maintenance. It's the accident waiting to happen. But things is likely to improve once the new Airport Rail Link connecting UTP, BKK, DMK is completed
- Slow immigration, stage off Airport disrepair are pretty obvious and I would like to put the blame on respective government agency. They are slow and heavily corrupted (embarrassed about it but that's the truth). I don't know what happened to DMK as it was always well maintained in the past. It was renovated even slightly before BKK is opened. I guess that they just can't cope with the capacity anymore.
- As mentioned by some, Satellite Concourse is nearly complete. Terminal 2 design has been released a few months ago and cause a wide criticism as it is far different from its Master plan with some reason (money and corruption in Airport Authority of Thailand is my guess). That plan seemed to be shelved as we speak, but it needs to be build anyway. Let's wait and see.
- As far as I am aware, Thai Air Asia have got some kind of commitment with aircraft lesser that their A330 will fly flights longer than 5 hours only. So, assuming that my knowledge is true then no chance to see their A330 flying domestic. But they are ordering some 321 now. Nok Air and Lion Air seemed to have no problem flying WB aircraft around, it's just the matter of margin and profit.
-Thai Airways and Thai Smile will NOT move domestic operation to DMK. TG has made it clear that they will only connect their international passengers to CNX, HKT and KVB, with much lower frequency than other airlines. The remaining destination/ timeslot were given to Thai Smiles. So, they are to be at BKK.

Did I missed something? Can't think of any other point to add. But you guys can feel free to sing out if I can be of any useful

Adding to that:
-DMK is pretty much just falling apart, especially Terminal 1 with toilets straight out of the 1990s, abandoned lounges, overpriced food and terrible aesthetics in general.
-There has been talk of a 4th airport for Bangkok that will be located in Nakhon Pathom province and personally, it is a stupid idea.
-As part of the plan, DMK T1 will only be renovated after the new international terminal opens, which will be around 2025+.
 
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Arq
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:31 pm

Toinou wrote:
What I was saying is that, on it's current state, Thai network is not to such a level that it could attract middle class travellers who are using lots of domestic flight which are a cause for congestion at DMK.


Yes, I agree. Prior to LCC era, middle class people travel more on coach service because Sleeper train is very difficult to reserve, majority of our rolling stock are terrible non-air con, sit up right facing strangers for the entire journey, but it's very cheap and you can travel from Bangkok to Chiang Mai for just 10-20 dollars.

Low cost Carrier change traveller's behaviour tremendously. Thai Train will still be there to serve lower income traveller, but some coach company especially those serving Chiang Mai, Phuket, Hat Yai has already ceased operation as they cannot effectively compete with airlines.
 
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janders
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:44 pm

Between DMK and BKK we are talking about a market with more than 100mil passengers annually, so the idea that a single airport can service the metro area is not realistic. DMK is here to stay, and Bangkok like many global cities will have a multi-airport system.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
DWC
Posts: 608
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Re: Thai govt ask for airlines to utilize more widebodies at Bangkok DMK

Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:20 pm

janders wrote:
Between DMK and BKK we are talking about a market with more than 100mil passengers annually, so the idea that a single airport can service the metro area is not realistic. DMK is here to stay, and Bangkok like many global cities will have a multi-airport system.

There is actually a third, UTP, to serve the southeast & the beaches (Patthaya, Rayong).
I remember posting about it earlier, seems there are too many threads on Thailand/BKK, dilutes the info.

I have not followed the project for an airport Nakhorn Pathom, but that would help to serve the far West of Bangkok ( all the way to River Kwai & then Burma ) & the immediate peninsula to the South, just as UTP is doing Patthaya across the Gulf of Siam.

In any case, DMK used to have all the FSCs WBs before BKK opened, there is no reason to use up all the slots with NBs, a problem at LHR where BA uses NBs to keep their slots, also at LAX with the very many RJ's : just flew in, the AA RJ Terminal is worse than DMK.

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