DLX737200
Topic Author
Posts: 1656
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 6:42 am

Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:57 am

Hello,

I've noticed almost daily American (Envoy) Flight 3337 ORD-OMA has three flight plans listed in FlightAware for the same route at the same time. One shows at AAL3337 (when it's not mainline operating this flight), another shows RPA3337 (operated by Republic) and finally, the actual ENY3337 (operated by Envoy).

Any idea why this happens daily? I've also seen this with a United mainline OMA-ORD that will show as UALXXXX and also GJSXXXX (same flight number but it's not a GoJet flight). How does this happen?

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Cubsrule
Posts: 13998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:34 am

Like much else, it’s almost certainly a Flightaware glitch.
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jetmatt777
Posts: 3923
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:34 pm

Flightaware has been using airline schedule data to build it’s “scheduled flights” information long before the FAA has a flight plan in its database.

The result is flightaware thinking AAL will operate the flight, and based on the flight number it may assume RPA will operate it. Then when ENY files the flight plan with the FAA it now has a 3rd entry.

Flightaware used to be great when it used strictly FAA data; now it is a composite of many sources and is thus very unreliable.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:24 pm

When I was in Hawaii in June, I noticed FlightAware still had a ton of Aloha flights loaded.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:16 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
When I was in Hawaii in June, I noticed FlightAware still had a ton of Aloha flights loaded.


Probably Aloha cargo.
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WeatherPilot
Posts: 514
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:02 pm

Is there a way to report the problem in FlightAware and in FR24?
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:52 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
ATLgaUSA wrote:
When I was in Hawaii in June, I noticed FlightAware still had a ton of Aloha flights loaded.


Probably Aloha cargo.


Indeed it was. Didn’t know there was an Aloha Cargo out there.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:23 pm

Just because it’s on flight aware doesn’t mean there was a flight plan for it. It’s all based on schedule not actual filings.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:43 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Flightaware has been using airline schedule data to build it’s “scheduled flights” information long before the FAA has a flight plan in its database.

The result is flightaware thinking AAL will operate the flight, and based on the flight number it may assume RPA will operate it. Then when ENY files the flight plan with the FAA it now has a 3rd entry.

Flightaware used to be great when it used strictly FAA data; now it is a composite of many sources and is thus very unreliable.

It’s possible AA populates the flight to both contractors so they have the data if they need to cover.
 
bulldogtx
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:18 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:55 pm

Normally these are de-duplicated automatically but they can slip through for various reasons. You can contact FlightAware at [email protected] but you need to be very specific about the example data and when it happened.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:02 pm

32andBelow wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Flightaware has been using airline schedule data to build it’s “scheduled flights” information long before the FAA has a flight plan in its database.

The result is flightaware thinking AAL will operate the flight, and based on the flight number it may assume RPA will operate it. Then when ENY files the flight plan with the FAA it now has a 3rd entry.

Flightaware used to be great when it used strictly FAA data; now it is a composite of many sources and is thus very unreliable.

It’s possible AA populates the flight to both contractors so they have the data if they need to cover.


No. AA has it scheduled with Envoy and if Republic were to operate the flight it would be a flight number somewhere in the 9400 range. Republic also doesn't operate into ORD on behalf of AA.

The likely cause is that FlightAware has an out of date flight number table for mapping purposes since they pull commercial schedules.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4016
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:05 pm

alasizon wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Flightaware has been using airline schedule data to build it’s “scheduled flights” information long before the FAA has a flight plan in its database.

The result is flightaware thinking AAL will operate the flight, and based on the flight number it may assume RPA will operate it. Then when ENY files the flight plan with the FAA it now has a 3rd entry.

Flightaware used to be great when it used strictly FAA data; now it is a composite of many sources and is thus very unreliable.

It’s possible AA populates the flight to both contractors so they have the data if they need to cover.


No. AA has it scheduled with Envoy and if Republic were to operate the flight it would be a flight number somewhere in the 9400 range. Republic also doesn't operate into ORD on behalf of AA.

The likely cause is that FlightAware has an out of date flight number table for mapping purposes since they pull commercial schedules.

The commercial data lists the marketing and the operating carrier separately so if they are doing it by flight number that’s super ultra lazy and dumb.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:37 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Like much else, it’s almost certainly a Flightaware glitch.

nope...
Happens all of the time.

Regional one cannot operate the assigned flight for whatever reason, crew shortage, planned maint., breakdown, charter, whatever. To keep it from harming their performance numbers, they call Regional Two and offer to pay them to operate the trip. Regional Two says sure, and builds the trip in the system.

As the flight gets closer however, Regional Two calls Regional one and says, "Sorry, but we have our own issues now, and can no longer run this trip for you."

Regional One then calls Regional Three and asks them to fly it. Regional Three can make it fit into the schedule, and has extra crew, so they say, "Sure! But it's gonna cost ya!"

I have seen all of this happen in less than an hour, on some days...
 
alasizon
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:00 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Like much else, it’s almost certainly a Flightaware glitch.

nope...
Happens all of the time.

Regional one cannot operate the assigned flight for whatever reason, crew shortage, planned maint., breakdown, charter, whatever. To keep it from harming their performance numbers, they call Regional Two and offer to pay them to operate the trip. Regional Two says sure, and builds the trip in the system.

As the flight gets closer however, Regional Two calls Regional one and says, "Sorry, but we have our own issues now, and can no longer run this trip for you."

Regional One then calls Regional Three and asks them to fly it. Regional Three can make it fit into the schedule, and has extra crew, so they say, "Sure! But it's gonna cost ya!"

I have seen all of this happen in less than an hour, on some days...


Unfortunately not what is occurring in this case however. If Republic was going to cover the flight for Envoy it would be a 9400 range flight number that AA uses for YX extra sections. You'll note the original photo shows the scheduled Envoy E75 enroute already.

Also your premise isn't quite right, the regionals don't do any sort of negotiations on their own, it is all handled through the Mainline partner who calls on behalf of one another and authorizes the flying. There is occasional communication between the respective dispatch groups if trying to coordinate but not to the extent you detail.

This is a flightaware issue of trying to predict the future and then not correcting it. Nothing at all to do with extra sections or coverage.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:47 am

alasizon wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Like much else, it’s almost certainly a Flightaware glitch.

nope...
Happens all of the time.

Regional one cannot operate the assigned flight for whatever reason, crew shortage, planned maint., breakdown, charter, whatever. To keep it from harming their performance numbers, they call Regional Two and offer to pay them to operate the trip. Regional Two says sure, and builds the trip in the system.

As the flight gets closer however, Regional Two calls Regional one and says, "Sorry, but we have our own issues now, and can no longer run this trip for you."

Regional One then calls Regional Three and asks them to fly it. Regional Three can make it fit into the schedule, and has extra crew, so they say, "Sure! But it's gonna cost ya!"

I have seen all of this happen in less than an hour, on some days...


Unfortunately not what is occurring in this case however. If Republic was going to cover the flight for Envoy it would be a 9400 range flight number that AA uses for YX extra sections. You'll note the original photo shows the scheduled Envoy E75 enroute already.

Also your premise isn't quite right, the regionals don't do any sort of negotiations on their own, it is all handled through the Mainline partner who calls on behalf of one another and authorizes the flying. There is occasional communication between the respective dispatch groups if trying to coordinate but not to the extent you detail.

This is a flightaware issue of trying to predict the future and then not correcting it. Nothing at all to do with extra sections or coverage.

Would not be an extra section to mainline, it would be operated under Regional One’s flight number. It’s just an aircraft swap to the mother system.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Multiple Airline Flight Plans for One Flight

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:53 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
alasizon wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
nope...
Happens all of the time.

Regional one cannot operate the assigned flight for whatever reason, crew shortage, planned maint., breakdown, charter, whatever. To keep it from harming their performance numbers, they call Regional Two and offer to pay them to operate the trip. Regional Two says sure, and builds the trip in the system.

As the flight gets closer however, Regional Two calls Regional one and says, "Sorry, but we have our own issues now, and can no longer run this trip for you."

Regional One then calls Regional Three and asks them to fly it. Regional Three can make it fit into the schedule, and has extra crew, so they say, "Sure! But it's gonna cost ya!"

I have seen all of this happen in less than an hour, on some days...


Unfortunately not what is occurring in this case however. If Republic was going to cover the flight for Envoy it would be a 9400 range flight number that AA uses for YX extra sections. You'll note the original photo shows the scheduled Envoy E75 enroute already.

Also your premise isn't quite right, the regionals don't do any sort of negotiations on their own, it is all handled through the Mainline partner who calls on behalf of one another and authorizes the flying. There is occasional communication between the respective dispatch groups if trying to coordinate but not to the extent you detail.

This is a flightaware issue of trying to predict the future and then not correcting it. Nothing at all to do with extra sections or coverage.

Would not be an extra section to mainline, it would be operated under Regional One’s flight number. It’s just an aircraft swap to the mother system.


For AA it would not be. If AA covers a flight for a regional carrier, they use a 9200 flight number. They do not use the same flight number and you can't as FOS has the mapping of each carrier's flight number range and which microhost to categorize it under not to mention it would be in a different FOS partition. The AAL entry is actually strictly based on commercial data where FlightAware is matching up the Mainline airline with the flight number and ignoring the operated by piece of the equation.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner

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