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Dutchy
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Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:55 pm

Pilots of a Boeing 737-800 from the Transavia airline wanted to take off from a taxiway at Schiphol on 6 September. However, air traffic control was able to intervene on time. The Dutch Safety Board has started an investigation into the incident.

The plane took a turn too early and rode a taxiway instead of the runway. Then the crew started with the start. Fortunately, air traffic control realized the error in time and ordered the pilots to stop immediately.

The crew broke off the start on time and then drove to the Zwanenburgbaan to leave "without further details" about ten minutes later. The device had Chania in Greece as its final destination.

The Boeing 737 would not have had any other aircraft in its path when the pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway.


Link

This is not the first time it happened, what strikes me is that this is again a home airline, thus pilots should know Schiphol as the back of their hands. Perhaps some pilots who fly in and out of Amsterdam can enlighten us if these taxiways are that unclear.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alasizon
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:11 pm

Can't speak specifically to AMS but a lot more minor incidents happen at a "common" airport than they do at an airport one rarely sees because of complacency.

For example, crews turn down the wrong taxiway because they are used to the normal route or they are in the go-home mode and aren't paying attention. There have even been crews that have exited the runway and taxied to the gate without talking to ground or ramp simply by habit.

Since it doesn't specify what runway this happened on, my best guess is that it was on 24L or 36C as those are the only two runways that have enough taxiway entrances to be remotely confusing.
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BasilFawlty
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:15 pm

'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:13 pm

The aviation safety system worked perfectly here. This is why you always have multiple layers of safety so small errors don't become big errors.
 
DWC
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:25 pm

alasizon wrote:
Can't speak specifically to AMS but a lot more minor incidents happen at a "common" airport than they do at an airport one rarely sees because of complacency.
For example, crews turn down the wrong taxiway because they are used to the normal route or they are in the go-home mode and aren't paying attention. There have even been crews that have exited the runway and taxied to the gate without talking to ground or ramp simply by habit.
Since it doesn't specify what runway this happened on, my best guess is that it was on 24L or 36C as those are the only two runways that have enough taxiway entrances to be remotely confusing.

The terrible SQ 006 accident springs to mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_006
 
timh4000
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:11 am

Is it just me or are there others that simply can't think/understand how this happens? I mean a runway is SIGNIFICANTLY larger lighted and painted as only a runway would. Wouldn't the lack of tire Marks the painted strip in the middle, the stripes that tell you how far you've got. I've read about these runway/taxi way excursions and I'm just SMH in this. Can a pilot please explain to me ESPECIALLY on take off how this happens.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:12 am

[photoid][/photoid]
SierraPacific wrote:
The aviation safety system worked perfectly here. This is why you always have multiple layers of safety so small errors don't become big errors.

Sure. A completely 20th century mentality regarding safety.

In the 21st century, the plane shouldn’t even allow you to initiate takeoff on a taxiway. It should know where you are at all times on the ground.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:28 am

I'm glad they listened to ATC and stopped. Some around here would have you believe the pilots can do whatever they want.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:35 am

Didn’t the same happen in AMS some years ago?
 
737max8
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:29 am

If the plane would have continue to take-off on Taxiway D, is there any reason to think the take-off wouldn't have been successful? The taxiway appears to be the same length as the runway. Just curious.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am

N14AZ wrote:
Didn’t the same happen in AMS some years ago?


True, a KLM 737 took off from that same taxiway these Transavia pilots attempted to take off from.

737max8 wrote:
If the plane would have continue to take-off on Taxiway D, is there any reason to think the take-off wouldn't have been successful? The taxiway appears to be the same length as the runway. Just curious.


As long as there'd be no traffic on the taxiway, it would have been successful for sure. After all it has been done before. But it wouldn't be safe due to the danger of taxiing aircraft. Those other pilots were lucky nothing happened, but that can't be guaranteed. Other aircraft would think twice before entering a runway, but not before entering a taxiway.
 
76er
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:11 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
a KLM 737 took off from that same taxiway these Transavia pilots attempted to take off from.


True, but that was in the opposite direction.
 
PDX88
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm glad they listened to ATC and stopped. Some around here would have you believe the pilots can do whatever they want.


Only if they declared an emergency, then they get a free pass to do as they please, a la DL89.
Last edited by PDX88 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PDX88
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:22 am

[duplicate]
 
by738
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:52 am

As per title of thread, Im not sure the pilot 'wanted' to take off from taxiway- as in a conscious choice, rather 'mistakenly' almost used taxiway. If it almost happened there must still be work done to improve and reduce risk further
 
ExpatVet
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:56 am

737max8 wrote:
If the plane would have continue to take-off on Taxiway D, is there any reason to think the take-off wouldn't have been successful? The taxiway appears to be the same length as the runway. Just curious.


Well, maybe, but on taxiways you can run into noise abatement issues.

"Ever heard the noise a 737 makes when it hits a 747?" - old joke
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IWMBH
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:48 am

The ATC tapes including visualisation:
https://youtu.be/tSt0zSFDMHc
 
just7four7
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:56 am

Happens often enough (AY aborted a TW lift off in HK some years ago), crazy as it seems. Should never happen. Never. Pilots should be immediately fired for that. A wrong turn can happen, not an attempted take off, after a wrong turn, neglecting charts, signs and professional familiarity. And if the clues of a much narrower only 30m wide TW with completely different markings is not enough.. time to go and take the office job.

One can sometimes observe those types of pilots at airports, those that do not really look serious, professional, alert, well mannered, social, and with a positive demeanor. Pilots who perform their job with only a minimum of care and seriousness, by the (less than expert) book, and out for the perks and the misses. Their head not where it should be. Not in love with their job. Sadly, unavoidable in the age of ever more flights and increasing number of hastily trained recruits.

The age of the Sullenbergers is over and I fear consequences are near.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:24 pm

just7four7 wrote:
Happens often enough (AY aborted a TW lift off in HK some years ago), crazy as it seems. Should never happen. Never. Pilots should be immediately fired for that. A wrong turn can happen, not an attempted take off, after a wrong turn, neglecting charts, signs and professional familiarity. And if the clues of a much narrower only 30m wide TW with completely different markings is not enough.. time to go and take the office job.

One can sometimes observe those types of pilots at airports, those that do not really look serious, professional, alert, well mannered, social, and with a positive demeanor. Pilots who perform their job with only a minimum of care and seriousness, by the (less than expert) book, and out for the perks and the misses. Their head not where it should be. Not in love with their job. Sadly, unavoidable in the age of ever more flights and increasing number of hastily trained recruits.

The age of the Sullenbergers is over and I fear consequences are near.


Generalize much? Firing pilots involved in an incident does nothing to prevent a similar incident from happening again. Thankfully, most airlines and safety regulators don't ascribe to the byzantine methods you espouse. We've moved far beyond that, and in many cases pilots are given absolution for voluntarily reporting incidents.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:39 pm

timh4000 wrote:
Is it just me or are there others that simply can't think/understand how this happens?

As pointed out above already, it's home airport complacency/comfort.

If you look at the video below, you'll notice the "original sin" was not even turning on a taxiway thinking it was a runway, but losing geographical awareness of their location. They thought they were on a taxiway from which a left turn would get them to the runway... when in fact they were on another, parallel, taxiway. It's not a surprising situation when you are in a familiar environment and there isn't a massive amount of difference between two parallel taxiways. I do get your point that a runway does look rather different, however I'm guessing them getting clearance to take off well before the runway had them focused more on take-off procedures than on where they were when they lined up since they (thought they) knew so well where they were...

IWMBH wrote:
The ATC tapes including visualisation:
https://youtu.be/tSt0zSFDMHc
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Breathe
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:51 pm

At least it wasn't like the "Settle down, Captain Happy" incident that happened years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_HCZ1YBaQo
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm glad they listened to ATC and stopped. Some around here would have you believe the pilots can do whatever they want.

That is a gross mischaracterization and simplification of the position “some us around here” have taken.
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kabq737
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:23 pm

just7four7 wrote:
Happens often enough (AY aborted a TW lift off in HK some years ago), crazy as it seems. Should never happen. Never. Pilots should be immediately fired for that. A wrong turn can happen, not an attempted take off, after a wrong turn, neglecting charts, signs and professional familiarity. And if the clues of a much narrower only 30m wide TW with completely different markings is not enough.. time to go and take the office job.

One can sometimes observe those types of pilots at airports, those that do not really look serious, professional, alert, well mannered, social, and with a positive demeanor. Pilots who perform their job with only a minimum of care and seriousness, by the (less than expert) book, and out for the perks and the misses. Their head not where it should be. Not in love with their job. Sadly, unavoidable in the age of ever more flights and increasing number of hastily trained recruits.

The age of the Sullenbergers is over and I fear consequences are near.


No, firing people is not the solution to the issue. Airlines and regulators have been working hard to create a just and fair culture. If people are faced with the threat of losing their livelihood and income for their family at the first mistake they will attempt to cover things up and/or fail to report things that the airline or regulator should be aware of.

I’m not saying there should never be ramifications for ones actions, but, generalized firing of flight crews who make mistakes will not increase safety but instead erode it quickly.

As for “The age of the Sullenbergers” being over I strongly disagree. There are plenty of excellent and well trained pilots out there. I know old pilots I love and old pilots I’d never want to fly with. The same can be said about young pilots as well. As with anything involving humans there is no binary switch but instead a wide spectrum of skill talent. That spectrum has changed a lot less in the past 20-30 years than you seem to think.
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Transavia pilots wanted to take off from the taxiway at Schiphol

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:51 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm glad they listened to ATC and stopped. Some around here would have you believe the pilots can do whatever they want.

That is a gross mischaracterization and simplification of the position “some us around here” have taken.


No it's not. TTailedTiger accurately represented the views of "some" (which by its very definition does not mean all) posters in the other thread. Some (one very vocally) were espousing the view that pilots can do whatever the hell they like, emergency or not, and that ATC are nothing more than a hindrance who should shut up and go home. Obviously not all pilots ascribe to that view, not even a majority, but the terrifying thought is that there are a handful who do. The world is a more dangerous place so long as those people are behind the controls of an aircraft.
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