RainerBoeing777
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Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:24 pm

Virgin plans to expand regional, domestic and international in LHR once more slots are obtained, observing the map of future new routes Delta,China Eastern, Aeromexico, WestJet, Korean air and GOL cooperation

https://thepointsguy.com/news/virgin-atlantic-unveils-plans-for-new-routes-including-in-the-us/?utm_source=twitter&utm_content=56D195A6-D99F-11E9-92C8-5DEF4744363C&utm_medium=social&utm_term=editorial&utm_campaign=thepointsguy
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MIflyer12
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:41 pm

There's nothing here. It's merely a wish.

The carrier says the new routes will be introduced by 2026 and would happen only “if the Government reforms the way new Heathrow slots are allocated to enable the creation of a second flag carrier at the airport”.

That makes Virgin Atlantic’s proposed routes at London’s slot-controlled and capacity-constrained airport just that: a proposal.
 
global1
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:11 am

Fascinating to see how Virgin will dovetail with WestJet, Aeromexico,Gol, China Eastern, Korean Air, add lift to India to help with the demise of Jet,and inaugurate service to Delta focus cities Austin and Raleigh Durham.

Yet to be factored in are possible synergies with a “New Alitalia” which will most likely have Delta as an investor.

LHR could evolve eventually as a Delta hub. Nowhere near the scale of BA, but when you add AMS, CDG, FCO(?), and possibly MAN, there’s enough coverage there to make them a real contender for some very juicy corporate contracts.

Delta’s global strategy is unfolding.
 
jfk777
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:31 am

Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.
 
trexel94
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:34 am

While I’m not holding my breath I’ll entertain the idea. An expanded VA that can effectively compete with BA would be welcomed however their North American wishlist is “interesting”.

Why RDU, DEN and SAN? Denver is already served by three different carriers and is a Star hub. RDU is already served by AA and is a relatively small market. SAN might work. However why not MSP or cities with little to no London service (STL, PDX, MCI, CLE etc)?
 
klm617
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:40 am

It's very telling that neither DTW or MSP are included in any of this expansion.
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jfern022
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:40 am

Correct me if I’m wrong, the whole FlyBe deal was geared more towards MAN and LGW? No slots at LHR?
 
jfern022
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:43 am

klm617 wrote:
It's very telling that neither DTW or MSP are included in any of this expansion.


There is already DL service at those hubs. The US destinations they are referring to aren’t covered by DL at the moment.

They want to expand into new unserved markets by the DL/VS JV.


Sure it’s probably more beneficial on their application if it’s brand new service as opposed to adding to existing service.
 
Cunard
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:45 am

trexel94 wrote:
While I’m not holding my breath I’ll entertain the idea. An expanded VA that can effectively compete with BA would be welcomed however their North American wishlist is “interesting”.

Why RDU, DEN and SAN? Denver is already served by three different carriers and is a Star hub. RDU is already served by AA and is a relatively small market. SAN might work. However why not MSP or cities with little to no London service (STL, PDX, MCI, CLE etc)?


As your aware Virgin Atlantic is VS whereas Virgin Australia is VA.

This is just another wishlist made by Virgin Atlantic, we've been here before on several occasions and with great hindsight they should have purchased BMI British Midland when they had the opportunity. The tie up with Delta is obviously reaping it's awards and the airline seems to be more focused and with more vision than it has done for several years.

Although with Virgin Atlantic currently on a bit of an expansion mode of late such as opening up new destination's such as Sao Paulo and Tel Aviv and the resumption of Mumbai some of these proposals might actually come to fruition at some point. With regards to resuming Tokyo, that should be the airline's priority.
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izbtmnhd
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:47 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
There's nothing here. It's merely a wish.

The carrier says the new routes will be introduced by 2026 and would happen only “if the Government reforms the way new Heathrow slots are allocated to enable the creation of a second flag carrier at the airport”.

That makes Virgin Atlantic’s proposed routes at London’s slot-controlled and capacity-constrained airport just that: a proposal.


This, but it won’t stop the forum argument over destrinations which will never happen.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:01 am

I love it, cant wait. The tie up with flyBE is huge and Virgin Atlantic IMO offers a better product all around. BA has been cheapening themselves for years. I look forward to being able to stay on VS/BE as another choice deep into Europe.

I am sure Bogota as mentioned above can hold its own and is a very important global connection city to LHR for both pax and freight. I also agree HND needs to start right away. Wish they would come to DTW.
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starguy
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:19 am

I can’t help but roll my eyes at anything Virgin Atlantic related. Having spent a decade working there, I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. In the 10 years I worked there they dropped Nassau, Tobago, Kingston, Chicago, Vancouver, Cape Town, Nairobi, Accra, Mumbai, Tokyo, Sydney plus the Little Red operations. After I left they continued to haemorrhage money and ditched further routes and frequencies, yet they’re going to make a massive success of all these slots they are going to be awarded? They put in a pathetic bid for BMI knowing full well Lufthansa wouldn’t sell it cheap just to be nice to little old Virgin atlantic. They complained about BA domination and were awarded slots not counting on the fact that their own argument about domestic monopoly would be used against them and they’d be forced to use them on domestic routes, they failed to even advertise those routes and ultimately ditched the whole Little Red operation. They wasted millions developing and installing the DreamSuite against the wishes of the crew and customers, only to rip them all out and revert to the previous design. Delta bought in and new management arrived with promises of £200 million profit, they slashed jobs and costs and yet they still make a loss now. It’s everyone else’s fault, it’s IAGs fault, it’s the industry against Virgin Atlantic.

I hope to god they wake up and start running like a business and stop expecting freebies when other airlines have to pay full price.

Good luck to them but I won’t hold my breath.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:38 am

The US routes make no sense. ORD is a hole in the VS network, true, but it's been tried and dropped before (twice I think). UA/AA + BA dominate it and VS won't have the frequency (or feed) to support it on either end. RDU probably has what it can support, unless DL's goal is to push AA off the route and take the two TATL routes RDU has at the moment. It all depends on the corporate contracts and I can see AA fighting hard for that one, unless it can use the RDU slot at LHR for something better. DEN makes no sense. DL has no real feed there. UA and BA cover the market. Good luck but not going to hold my breath on these. Virgin has had two consecutive annual losses so guessing they are trying to grow themselves to profit but these are going to be very tough routes for them if they get the slots.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:55 am

1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage.

2. Interesting to see AUS and RDU, but not BNA. Perhaps it’s due to the close proximity to ATL?

3. Didn’t they try ORD and fail. AA/UA run like 10 flights a day there, it would be hard for VS to get their share.
 
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chepos
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:20 am

Some of these proposed routes are just silly. I mean, VS can’t make ORD, YVR, YYZ, NRT, DXB etc work- all which have been attempted. Seems like VS just wants to create some buzz.


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berari
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:31 am

jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


chepos wrote:
Some of these proposed routes are just silly. I mean, VS can’t make ORD, YVR, YYZ, NRT, DXB etc work- all which have been attempted. Seems like VS just wants to create some buzz.


Add Addis Ababa to the list of destinations it proposes but will not materialize. It was not able to make Nairobi work (a destination with O&D far greater than ADD and one that VS already pulled out of) and I would expect them to go there first given DL/KQ/Skyteam hub nature of NBO. It's a negotiating tactic clearly, and I do feel for VS at LHR.

If VS intends to become a carrier that focuses on connections, does it have a better chance at, say, having its connecting hub structure set up at MAN and focus LHR for point to point service?
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:41 am

berari wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


chepos wrote:
Some of these proposed routes are just silly. I mean, VS can’t make ORD, YVR, YYZ, NRT, DXB etc work- all which have been attempted. Seems like VS just wants to create some buzz.


Add Addis Ababa to the list of destinations it proposes but will not materialize. It was not able to make Nairobi work (a destination with O&D far greater than ADD and one that VS already pulled out of) and I would expect them to go there first given DL/KQ/Skyteam hub nature of NBO. It's a negotiating tactic clearly, and I do feel for VS at LHR.

If VS intends to become a carrier that focuses on connections, does it have a better chance at, say, having its connecting hub structure set up at MAN and focus LHR for point to point service?


My thoughts exactly, why wait for 3rd runway at LHR when they can build up MAN
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berari
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:09 am

BA744PHX wrote:

My thoughts exactly, why wait for 3rd runway at LHR when they can build up MAN


My uneducated thoughts in this are that VS wants to grow at LHR while maintaining and growing its boutique type image out of a coveted airport. If they wanted to be more of a connecting type of an airline, they can choose to set up shop anywhere else with MAN being a possible alternative.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:16 am

This is all about DL getting a stronger foothold at LHR. The VS brand is just a stalking horse....nothing more.
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SCQ83
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:17 am

It looks like they want to become the Air Europa of LHR. A second airline with a mixed focus on O&D and connecting traffic.

I don't know why MAN is even brought to this thread. London is where the demand is.

BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage..


Antitrust investigation?. Even with this expansion, BA+AA+EI+IB will be much bigger. If anything this will be better in terms of choices and competition for London-based costumers as they will have a real alternative to British Airways in many routes.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:42 am

jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


Mexico City (MEX) > Aeromexico
Buenos Aires (EZE) > Aerolineas Argentinas + GOL
Beijing (PKX) > China Eastern
Austin (AUS) > Delta
Delta is a majority shareholder of Virgin Atlantic, the new destinations they launch are under the tutelage of Delta, always an example of Sao Paulo as Delta has cooperation with GOL that makes Virgin come into play in LHR-GRU with a large number of connections to make the flights more profitable and with better yields,Delta has JV with Korean Air, WestJet, Aeromexico, China Eastern, GOL, Virgin Australia, in addition to its strong partners Air France and KLM. That is why they have a lot of logic routes like Seoul (ICN), the biggest hub of Korean Air, Xi'an and Kunming that are focus city of China Eastern

Bogota (BOG) > much demand the flight of Avianca BOG-LHR has a load factor of 90% is one of the most profitable routes of AV even they are looking for a 2nd daily flight
Panama City (PTY) > PTY is the hub of the americas, also LHR is the only European megahub that has no flights to PTY also has logic its sisters KLM & Air France are very strong in PTY even in high season they fly with B77W has logic launch PTY

Chicago (ORD) > If Norwegian flies to ORD , because not Virgin Atlantic, in addition to the construction of the new ORD terminal, Delta expects a greater presence in ORD and there is an important premium traffic
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chepos
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:04 am

So much can happen between now and 2026 that this whole discussion is kind of a moot point.


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TUGMASTER
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:06 am

starguy wrote:
I can’t help but roll my eyes at anything Virgin Atlantic related. Having spent a decade working there, I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. In the 10 years I worked there they dropped Nassau, Tobago, Kingston, Chicago, Vancouver, Cape Town, Nairobi, Accra, Mumbai, Tokyo, Sydney plus the Little Red operations. After I left they continued to haemorrhage money and ditched further routes and frequencies, yet they’re going to make a massive success of all these slots they are going to be awarded? They put in a pathetic bid for BMI knowing full well Lufthansa wouldn’t sell it cheap just to be nice to little old Virgin atlantic. They complained about BA domination and were awarded slots not counting on the fact that their own argument about domestic monopoly would be used against them and they’d be forced to use them on domestic routes, they failed to even advertise those routes and ultimately ditched the whole Little Red operation. They wasted millions developing and installing the DreamSuite against the wishes of the crew and customers, only to rip them all out and revert to the previous design. Delta bought in and new management arrived with promises of £200 million profit, they slashed jobs and costs and yet they still make a loss now. It’s everyone else’s fault, it’s IAGs fault, it’s the industry against Virgin Atlantic.

I hope to god they wake up and start running like a business and stop expecting freebies when other airlines have to pay full price.

Good luck to them but I won’t hold my breath.


Never a truer word said...
VS are just a whinging bag of hot air these days.
 
oceanvikram
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:42 am

starguy wrote:
I can’t help but roll my eyes at anything Virgin Atlantic related. Having spent a decade working there, I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. In the 10 years I worked there they dropped Nassau, Tobago, Kingston, Chicago, Vancouver, Cape Town, Nairobi, Accra, Mumbai, Tokyo, Sydney plus the Little Red operations. After I left they continued to haemorrhage money and ditched further routes and frequencies, yet they’re going to make a massive success of all these slots they are going to be awarded? They put in a pathetic bid for BMI knowing full well Lufthansa wouldn’t sell it cheap just to be nice to little old Virgin atlantic. They complained about BA domination and were awarded slots not counting on the fact that their own argument about domestic monopoly would be used against them and they’d be forced to use them on domestic routes, they failed to even advertise those routes and ultimately ditched the whole Little Red operation. They wasted millions developing and installing the DreamSuite against the wishes of the crew and customers, only to rip them all out and revert to the previous design. Delta bought in and new management arrived with promises of £200 million profit, they slashed jobs and costs and yet they still make a loss now. It’s everyone else’s fault, it’s IAGs fault, it’s the industry against Virgin Atlantic.

I hope to god they wake up and start running like a business and stop expecting freebies when other airlines have to pay full price.

Good luck to them but I won’t hold my breath.


I have similar views but you have articulated better than what I could.
My comments are based as an aviation enthusiast first, then as a passenger who paid for his own ticket, after that a passenger on a business trip and finally an armchair CEO.
 
hibtastic
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:54 am

Why couldn’t they work in the future with increased feed at the UK end through their proposed Domestic and Euro routes. Not saying all of them will but some may stand a better chance.
 
McG1967
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:28 am

VS have been saying for a while that they should have first dibs on new slots that would be created as a consequence of a 3rd runway.

Currently it's proposed that the slots created by the 3rd runway will go to New entrants to the LHR market such as easyJet who have already said they want slots if a 3rd runway happens and would be looking to have a sizeable shorthaul operation.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:35 am

BA744PHX wrote:
berari wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


chepos wrote:
Some of these proposed routes are just silly. I mean, VS can’t make ORD, YVR, YYZ, NRT, DXB etc work- all which have been attempted. Seems like VS just wants to create some buzz.


Add Addis Ababa to the list of destinations it proposes but will not materialize. It was not able to make Nairobi work (a destination with O&D far greater than ADD and one that VS already pulled out of) and I would expect them to go there first given DL/KQ/Skyteam hub nature of NBO. It's a negotiating tactic clearly, and I do feel for VS at LHR.

If VS intends to become a carrier that focuses on connections, does it have a better chance at, say, having its connecting hub structure set up at MAN and focus LHR for point to point service?


My thoughts exactly, why wait for 3rd runway at LHR when they can build up MAN


This is public lobbying in advance of a project which likely won't happen in the foreseeable and, if it does happen, is highly unlikely to start (let alone finish) by 2026.

In the meantime, VS apparently has a plan to expand at MAN, and many of the UK domestic and EU routes referred to in the article are to be served by "Virgin Connect" whenever that is formally launched.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:39 am

global1 wrote:
Fascinating to see how Virgin will dovetail with WestJet, Aeromexico,Gol, China Eastern, Korean Air, add lift to India to help with the demise of Jet,and inaugurate service to Delta focus cities Austin and Raleigh Durham.

Yet to be factored in are possible synergies with a “New Alitalia” which will most likely have Delta as an investor.

LHR could evolve eventually as a Delta hub. Nowhere near the scale of BA, but when you add AMS, CDG, FCO(?), and possibly MAN, there’s enough coverage there to make them a real contender for some very juicy corporate contracts.

Delta’s global strategy is unfolding.


Wishful thinking at the very best my friend.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:40 am

jfern022 wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, the whole FlyBe deal was geared more towards MAN and LGW? No slots at LHR?


LHR and MAN were specifically quoted at the time of the takeover. We're already beginning to seeing that at LHR with GCI being introduced, though IOM is being dropped. As you infer, slot availability will dictate what's next.

I will be surprised if LGW comes into the equation. The VS base has slowly been shrinking with CUN and VRA gone, UVF going, LAS moved to LHR and HAV following suit next year, though JFK is commencing next year along with DL's BOS flight. Even Flybe's NQY flight was moved to LHR prior to the takeover.
 
TC957
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:43 am

BA744PHX wrote:
berari wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


chepos wrote:
Some of these proposed routes are just silly. I mean, VS can’t make ORD, YVR, YYZ, NRT, DXB etc work- all which have been attempted. Seems like VS just wants to create some buzz.


Add Addis Ababa to the list of destinations it proposes but will not materialize. It was not able to make Nairobi work (a destination with O&D far greater than ADD and one that VS already pulled out of) and I would expect them to go there first given DL/KQ/Skyteam hub nature of NBO. It's a negotiating tactic clearly, and I do feel for VS at LHR.

If VS intends to become a carrier that focuses on connections, does it have a better chance at, say, having its connecting hub structure set up at MAN and focus LHR for point to point service?


My thoughts exactly, why wait for 3rd runway at LHR when they can build up MAN

They could build up LGW too.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:45 am

jfern022 wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, the whole FlyBe deal was geared more towards MAN and LGW? No slots at LHR?


VS has consistently said that the purchase of Flybe was about feed to LHR and MAN. LGW was conspicuously absent.

There are slots at LHR, but they are for routes that are not economically viable. Even with additional slots, there is a significant assumption that an expanded LHR wont undermine the business model of BA (and the planned business model of VS) when the avalanche of locos relocate from LGW (EasyJet) and STN (Ryanair) and do the same to BA at LHR as they have done across the rest of the UK before.
 
Sascha81
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:57 am

VS doesn't want to fly to Buenos Aires and don't starting Codeshare flights with AR on LHR-GRU-EZE/AEP Route. They prefer G3 in Brasil like AF/KL, DL.
 
Lofty
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:12 am

With only T2 and T5 at the moment only having domestic gates we would have to see some major works in T3 or VS would have to operate out of 2 terminals.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:16 am

SCQ83 wrote:
It looks like they want to become the Air Europa of LHR. A second airline with a mixed focus on O&D and connecting traffic.

I don't know why MAN is even brought to this thread. London is where the demand is.

BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage..


Antitrust investigation?. Even with this expansion, BA+AA+EI+IB will be much bigger. If anything this will be better in terms of choices and competition for London-based costumers as they will have a real alternative to British Airways in many routes.


Last I checked, DUB and MAD aren’t quite on the same level as LHR/CDG/AMS/FRA. An expanded VS presence at LHR giving the DL/AF/KL/VS jv essentially a third major European hub at one of the “core four” airports I mentioned above might not sit well with competition regulators.
 
tonystan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:20 am

I see Sir Dickie is getting his letter to Santa out early this year.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:50 am

BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage.

2. Interesting to see AUS and RDU, but not BNA. Perhaps it’s due to the close proximity to ATL?

3. Didn’t they try ORD and fail. AA/UA run like 10 flights a day there, it would be hard for VS to get their share.


AUS and RDU are richer markets from a corporate contract perspective, but they are fairly limited, so unless AA loses the contracts it already has on its long running RDU-LHR route, which supposedly includes GSK, who have a sizable operation on both ends, I just don't see two daily flights to LHR working for RDU long run. BNA is served by BA and that again is likely enough for the market, now.

DL has historically, even pre-NW merger, had a decent footprint in ORD and continues to see it as a key business market reflecting a hole in its network. That said, it has tried ORD-CDG and it failed. VS had year round service to ORD then dropped it, only for it to return as a seasonal route and again, it did not work. ORD-LHR is dominated by the frequencies that UA and AA + BA have and the feed on both ends, plus the well ensconced corporate contracts in Chicagoland that AA and UA have.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:10 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage.

2. Interesting to see AUS and RDU, but not BNA. Perhaps it’s due to the close proximity to ATL?

3. Didn’t they try ORD and fail. AA/UA run like 10 flights a day there, it would be hard for VS to get their share.


AUS and RDU are richer markets from a corporate contract perspective, but they are fairly limited, so unless AA loses the contracts it already has on its long running RDU-LHR route, which supposedly includes GSK, who have a sizable operation on both ends, I just don't see two daily flights to LHR working for RDU long run. BNA is served by BA and that again is likely enough for the market, now.

DL has historically, even pre-NW merger, had a decent footprint in ORD and continues to see it as a key business market reflecting a hole in its network. That said, it has tried ORD-CDG and it failed. VS had year round service to ORD then dropped it, only for it to return as a seasonal route and again, it did not work. ORD-LHR is dominated by the frequencies that UA and AA + BA have and the feed on both ends, plus the well ensconced corporate contracts in Chicagoland that AA and UA have.


AUS/RDU are a bit ahead in corporate contacts, but BNA isn’t too far behind and it also has a very wealthy county in Williamson (one of the wealthiest in the nation) to the south of it where people have a lot of $$$ to travel. By the time VS would actually get around to adding these routes (late 2020s), BA will be well established at BNA and ready for a second carrier.

As for ORD, DL did not fail on ORD-CDG, they simply handed it off to AF to run year round. Given the high frequencies on BA/AA and UA, VS likely can’t make LRD work if they returned.
 
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OA940
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:12 am

So... why is anyone talking about anything thinking they know stuff? 2026 is over half a decade away. In that time all sorts of things could happen. VS could shut down, BA could shut down, the UK could go to war blah blah blah. There's no point in discussing this because it's too far into the future to know with a shred of certainty what could happen
A350/CSeries = bae
 
skipness1E
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:23 am

There's surely at least one major recession between here and there that will re-set much of this?
 
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OA260
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:36 pm

starguy wrote:
I can’t help but roll my eyes at anything Virgin Atlantic related. Having spent a decade working there, I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. In the 10 years I worked there they dropped Nassau, Tobago, Kingston, Chicago, Vancouver, Cape Town, Nairobi, Accra, Mumbai, Tokyo, Sydney plus the Little Red operations. After I left they continued to haemorrhage money and ditched further routes and frequencies, yet they’re going to make a massive success of all these slots they are going to be awarded? They put in a pathetic bid for BMI knowing full well Lufthansa wouldn’t sell it cheap just to be nice to little old Virgin atlantic. They complained about BA domination and were awarded slots not counting on the fact that their own argument about domestic monopoly would be used against them and they’d be forced to use them on domestic routes, they failed to even advertise those routes and ultimately ditched the whole Little Red operation. They wasted millions developing and installing the DreamSuite against the wishes of the crew and customers, only to rip them all out and revert to the previous design. Delta bought in and new management arrived with promises of £200 million profit, they slashed jobs and costs and yet they still make a loss now. It’s everyone else’s fault, it’s IAGs fault, it’s the industry against Virgin Atlantic.

I hope to god they wake up and start running like a business and stop expecting freebies when other airlines have to pay full price.

Good luck to them but I won’t hold my breath.


Indeed nothing like generating a bit of hype and PR.
 
p468
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:32 pm

VS' current size and scale simply does not allow them to be profitable in the long run. It's great to see an airline that has bigger ambitions, whether they materialize or not is another discussion for another day. What is important to note and what the article mentions is the current regime of slots at LHR is not good for us, the consumer. With the LHR expansion comes opportunity. VS believe that they are best placed to make the most of this opportunity and serve the consumer best. It is no doubt that IAG (BA) have enjoyed years of dominance at LHR, out of no hard work of their own. They inherited their position from the days it was a public company.
 
p468
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:50 pm

starguy wrote:
I can’t help but roll my eyes at anything Virgin Atlantic related. Having spent a decade working there, I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. In the 10 years I worked there they dropped Nassau, Tobago, Kingston, Chicago, Vancouver, Cape Town, Nairobi, Accra, Mumbai, Tokyo, Sydney plus the Little Red operations. After I left they continued to haemorrhage money and ditched further routes and frequencies, yet they’re going to make a massive success of all these slots they are going to be awarded? They put in a pathetic bid for BMI knowing full well Lufthansa wouldn’t sell it cheap just to be nice to little old Virgin atlantic. They complained about BA domination and were awarded slots not counting on the fact that their own argument about domestic monopoly would be used against them and they’d be forced to use them on domestic routes, they failed to even advertise those routes and ultimately ditched the whole Little Red operation. They wasted millions developing and installing the DreamSuite against the wishes of the crew and customers, only to rip them all out and revert to the previous design. Delta bought in and new management arrived with promises of £200 million profit, they slashed jobs and costs and yet they still make a loss now. It’s everyone else’s fault, it’s IAGs fault, it’s the industry against Virgin Atlantic.

I hope to god they wake up and start running like a business and stop expecting freebies when other airlines have to pay full price.

Good luck to them but I won’t hold my breath.


Little red is another story for another day. We have to remember that British domestic routes were never a success, whether that was under the (VS) little red banner, or the BMI regional flag or any other iteration. Little red had a high cost base, they (VS and others) ran expensive jets on short 45min segments, which could be better served with turbo-props (flybe did well here). Additionally, due to VS' network at the time, they were only really able to utilize the leased 320s they had on the domestic routes little red operated. It is just not sustainable to run 3/4 routes alone, you need a much larger and varied network.

Lufthansa are much more mature and experienced than VS are and even they failed in the British domestic front. LH run one of, if not THE, most successful domestic network in Europe, if LH couldn't make British domestic work back then, then no one had a chance. Having said that, the industry has come a long way since and airlines have learnt a lot from their mistakes, so VS (with flybe/connect) still have another chance at making it work, but it will only work if part of a much larger connected airline, which is what VS plan to be (from what it sounds like). But again, let's not deviate away from the OP, LHR (the UK even) does not have a big enough competitor to truly compete against IAG/BA. Look at what the ME3 competition did to the market, the American big 3, more competition means better service, better pricing, better connectivity, better choice. But not only better for the consumer, also better for the airlines, the world of numerous small players is no longer, now it is all about big dog fight big dog, but the British consumer has never had this benefit, why, because IAG have inherited slot after slot after slot....
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:05 pm

This is my overview of why the routes were selected for Virgin Atlantic's long haul expansion as UK will be similar to a Flybe hub at Heathrow, whilst Europe are the destinations at Heathrow which offer the most connections/O&D etc

North America:
- Austin (Delta focus city)
- Calgary (Potential WestJet codeshare)
- Chicago (large O&D and high yield)
- Denver (growing O&D)
- Orlando (Delta focus city and large Virgin presence)
- Raleigh (Delta focus city)
- San Diego (high yields)
- Toronto (potential WestJet codeshare)
- Vancouver (potential WestJet codeshare)

Latin and South America:
- Bogota (one of Aviancas most profitable routes and looking for 2nd daily flight)
- Buenos Aires (potential Aerolinas codeshare and take on Norwegian)
- Fortaleza (Gol! Codeshare)
- Lima (unserved from LHR, potential for European connections)
- Mexico City (Aeromexico codeshare)
- Panama City (Air France & KLM already have a large presence)
- Santiago (rival IAG)

Africa:
- Accra (feed USA)
- Addis Ababa (feed USA)
- Cape Town (feed USA, take on IAG)
- Nairobi (feed USA, Kenya Airways codeshare)

Middle East:
- Abu Dhabi (high yields)
- Beirut (can use European aircraft, high yields)

Asia:
- Beijing (current Air China codeshare, potential China Eastern codeshare)
- Bengaluru (feed USA, high yields)
- Jakarta (unserved from LHR, large KLM presence)
- Karachi (feed USA)
- Kunming (current Air China codeshare, potential China Eastern codeshare)
- Seoul (Korean Air codeshare)
- Singapore (Singapore Airlines codeshare, high yields)
- Tokyo Haneda (large O&D, high yields)
- Xian (current Air China codeshare, potential China Eastern codeshare)

Oceania:
- Auckland (Air New Zealand codeshare, high yields)
- Sydney (Virgin Australia codeshare, large O&D, high yields)
 
ewt340
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:21 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


British Airways didn't fly to places like Addis Ababa, Auckland, Bogota, Fortaleza, Havana, Jakarta, Kolkata, Kunming, Panama, Raleigh–Durham, Xi'an.

In Calgary and Lima, BA only fly seasonal routes.

All of these routes apart from Jakarta and Auckland. Are around or below 10-hours. So lower risk compared to longer routes. Utilizing plane like A330-900neo would be quite logical instead of B787-9.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:25 pm

Chicago has been tried and failed twice, it's an AA/UA super hub carve up with almost no DL presence.
Toronto and Vancouver are a BA/AC carve up, with even BA struggling in Canada, YYC going seasonal and YUL on the smallest aircraft available. Again, both have been tried before with VS and failed.
If you're gonna move MCO, you're also likely to close VS LGW and remove the last 4-5 flights per day to the Caribbean into the mix, LAS has already moved onto a LHR B787. LGW-BOS/JFK is a straightforward JetBlue spoiler and an attempt to squeeze Norwegian.

AKL is not high yielding and would have to be operated via LAX or SFO at a push. NZ treat both legs of the current flight as local traffic markets, much of the LHR traffic is only going to LAX, no reason why NZ would cannibalise their own yields to help VS, indeed their last go at increasing LHR did exactly this with the LHR-HKG-AKL gig. Any through LHR-AKL traffic is a bonus from a commercial standpoint, but of course there is a fair amount.
Sydney is not high yielding while EK/QR/EY are on the route.
Indeed why would SQ welcome VS onto LHR-SIN, this is literally the last thing they'd do, same goes for KE, CGK (car crash wit GA currently), can't see NH wanting VS at HND and CA are currently driving massive capacity of their own on LHR-PEK now at 3 x daily. NBO and CPT have just been dropped and ACC was dropped ages ago.

This is a planespotting wishlist.
 
xwb777
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:30 pm

Isnt it like informing your competitors on whats in your mind?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:17 pm

It is clearly wishful thinking and political posturing and is highly unlikely to happen.

However, VS is now backed by DL and has the financial clout to support VS implementing something on the scale VS want, if DL are minded to provide that support. DL also have the experience of managing major hub operations - so in summary, I wouldn’t write this off because of VS/DL.

However, there are a lot of factors which VS cannot control and which are more likely to scupper this. The most obvious one is whether the third runway will happen at all in the foreseeable future or at all - and I won’t get into that. Then, if it happens, now will slots be allocated. Also, how will the entry of the locos affect the hub business model at LHR (in light of it’s astronomical charging structure).

An interesting story, but nothing more than that.
 
720B
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:28 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


because there is demand? why else?

why do KLM, Lufthansa , Air France, Turkish , Iberia fly to Bogota?? (almost all daily, except Turkish) There is demand.

You have to get past the idea that only first world markets are lucrative
 
Kadish
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:49 pm

720B wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


because there is demand? why else?

why do KLM, Lufthansa , Air France, Turkish , Iberia fly to Bogota?? (almost all daily, except Turkish) There is demand.

You have to get past the idea that only first world markets are lucrative


IB has 10 weekly flights from MAD and AV around 20, UX 7....so I guess there should be some demand n cargo
 
Philippine747
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:50 am

Surprised about CGK being on the roadmap. Isn't Garuda struggling on that route (which may or may not be their fault)?
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