p468
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:25 am

Philippine747 wrote:
Surprised about CGK being on the roadmap. Isn't Garuda struggling on that route (which may or may not be their fault)?

According to CAA statistics, 55,264 PAX flew between LHR and CGK last year, that was a 58% increase on 2017. Between 2011 and 2018 British nationals tourist visiting Indonesia grew by 95%, phenomenal growth rate and the great thing is there's also enough demand for business travel, Indonesia's economy is booming and it's GDP and export stats speak for themselves. A route always works better if there's a good balance o biz and leisure travelers. There's clearly a demand there, whether VS can make it work better than GA, who knows.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:26 am

As much as I love VS, EZY will kill them in those euro markets (EZY also mulling LHR post expansion).
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:38 am

Didnt VS used to have a more extensive route map?

Didnt they cut many of those money losing routes to return to their North Atlantic core strength?

Didnt they also have a bunch of slots for regional routes?

Didnt they bleed money on these routes too?

Wasnt all of this not that long ago?
 
seat1a
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:39 pm

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the UK routes from LHR would have to be props (Q400?) to be profitable (or something like that). Could that work at LHR given the high costs of operating there, i.e., a whole bunch of Q400s flying routes to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Belfast, Jersey, Newquay, et.al.?
Thanks
 
AMALH747430
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:09 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage.


I don't see competition authorities havig an issue as this would create an effective competitor to the AA/IAG JV at LHR. This would have a positive impact for London passengers by giving them a true alternative BA. VS is smart to bring this forward now with all the issues BA is having with its labor force, computer systems, and service standards.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:41 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage.


I don't see competition authorities havig an issue as this would create an effective competitor to the AA/IAG JV at LHR. This would have a positive impact for London passengers by giving them a true alternative BA. VS is smart to bring this forward now with all the issues BA is having with its labor force, computer systems, and service standards.


With DL/AF/KL already having dominant hubs at CDG and AMS, do you think European competition authorities would be keen on VS establishing essentially a third hub at LHR, giving the jv good hubs at the top 3 European airports?

Then again, with Brexit, it may not matter what European authorities say.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:30 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage.


I don't see competition authorities havig an issue as this would create an effective competitor to the AA/IAG JV at LHR. This would have a positive impact for London passengers by giving them a true alternative BA. VS is smart to bring this forward now with all the issues BA is having with its labor force, computer systems, and service standards.


With DL/AF/KL already having dominant hubs at CDG and AMS, do you think European competition authorities would be keen on VS establishing essentially a third hub at LHR, giving the jv good hubs at the top 3 European airports?

Then again, with Brexit, it may not matter what European authorities say.


Not at all. As numerous others have pointed outC this increases competition. Not sure why you are so focused on there being an additional hub as anticompetitive.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:45 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:

I don't see competition authorities havig an issue as this would create an effective competitor to the AA/IAG JV at LHR. This would have a positive impact for London passengers by giving them a true alternative BA. VS is smart to bring this forward now with all the issues BA is having with its labor force, computer systems, and service standards.


With DL/AF/KL already having dominant hubs at CDG and AMS, do you think European competition authorities would be keen on VS establishing essentially a third hub at LHR, giving the jv good hubs at the top 3 European airports?

Then again, with Brexit, it may not matter what European authorities say.


Not at all. As numerous others have pointed outC this increases competition. Not sure why you are so focused on there being an additional hub as anticompetitive.


I’m not certain of that.

I think it depends whether the competition authorities regard the “relevant market” as being LHR only (in which event it increases competition) or if it includes CDG, AMS, FRA etc (in which event it arguably reduces competition given DL/AF/KL/VS market share).
 
p468
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:32 pm

seat1a wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the UK routes from LHR would have to be props (Q400?) to be profitable (or something like that). Could that work at LHR given the high costs of operating there, i.e., a whole bunch of Q400s flying routes to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Belfast, Jersey, Newquay, et.al.?
Thanks

Think that may have been what I eluded to. Absolutely yes!
The dash 8s are an absolute A* aircraft. BE already operate them on their domestic routes in/out of LHR. Believe it or not, not just BE love these beauties, but so do LHR (HAL). Not only are they more economical on shorter routes (from airlines POV) but HAL love them because they're quick on and off the runway, the Q400 slots perfectly in between other takeoff and landings at the airport, making great 'fillers'. You probably still won't t/o in one behind a heavy landing, but it still performance exceptionally well in this regard, even compared to larger ac such as 320s etc
 
ewt340
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:59 pm

Philippine747 wrote:
Surprised about CGK being on the roadmap. Isn't Garuda struggling on that route (which may or may not be their fault)?


Passengers tend to choose to fly with their local airlines instead of flying with foreign airlines.
Garuda uses 314 seats B777-300ER to fly to London. While VS could use their smaller B787-9 with 264 seats.
There is no direct flight from London and Jakarta. Hence no competitions.
Garuda Indonesia sucks (their FA and food are actually excellent) but their ground service and staff, it ain't working. They are not popular/
 
A321200
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:03 pm

p468 wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the UK routes from LHR would have to be props (Q400?) to be profitable (or something like that). Could that work at LHR given the high costs of operating there, i.e., a whole bunch of Q400s flying routes to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Belfast, Jersey, Newquay, et.al.?
Thanks

Think that may have been what I eluded to. Absolutely yes!
The dash 8s are an absolute A* aircraft. BE already operate them on their domestic routes in/out of LHR. Believe it or not, not just BE love these beauties, but so do LHR (HAL). Not only are they more economical on shorter routes (from airlines POV) but HAL love them because they're quick on and off the runway, the Q400 slots perfectly in between other takeoff and landings at the airport, making great 'fillers'. You probably still won't t/o in one behind a heavy landing, but it still performance exceptionally well in this regard, even compared to larger ac such as 320s etc


Goodness me, I disagree with pretty much all of that! What world actually needs is to be rid of these 'beauties' (dogs)... Yes, they burn about a ton of fuel an hour but the fun stops there, let me assure you..! They are also getting rather long in the tooth and have had a long and hard life - some were knackered when I used to fly them 10 years ago, I doubt things have improved much. Once Flybe has been assimilated I can't imagine these hanging around for too much longer, not when DL have huge buying power for hundreds of A220s, expect that to be the future... not these old heaps.
 
seat1a
Posts: 477
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:17 pm

A321200 wrote:
p468 wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the UK routes from LHR would have to be props (Q400?) to be profitable (or something like that). Could that work at LHR given the high costs of operating there, i.e., a whole bunch of Q400s flying routes to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Belfast, Jersey, Newquay, et.al.?
Thanks

Think that may have been what I eluded to. Absolutely yes!
The dash 8s are an absolute A* aircraft. BE already operate them on their domestic routes in/out of LHR. Believe it or not, not just BE love these beauties, but so do LHR (HAL). Not only are they more economical on shorter routes (from airlines POV) but HAL love them because they're quick on and off the runway, the Q400 slots perfectly in between other takeoff and landings at the airport, making great 'fillers'. You probably still won't t/o in one behind a heavy landing, but it still performance exceptionally well in this regard, even compared to larger ac such as 320s etc


Goodness me, I disagree with pretty much all of that! What world actually needs is to be rid of these 'beauties' (dogs)... Yes, they burn about a ton of fuel an hour but the fun stops there, let me assure you..! They are also getting rather long in the tooth and have had a long and hard life - some were knackered when I used to fly them 10 years ago, I doubt things have improved much. Once Flybe has been assimilated I can't imagine these hanging around for too much longer, not when DL have huge buying power for hundreds of A220s, expect that to be the future... not these old heaps.


I presume Virgin Atlantic would buy new ones for it's new UK routes from LHR?! Or perhaps the 220 is a better plane to fly those routes. Thanks!
 
A321200
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:32 pm

seat1a wrote:
A321200 wrote:
p468 wrote:
Think that may have been what I eluded to. Absolutely yes!
The dash 8s are an absolute A* aircraft. BE already operate them on their domestic routes in/out of LHR. Believe it or not, not just BE love these beauties, but so do LHR (HAL). Not only are they more economical on shorter routes (from airlines POV) but HAL love them because they're quick on and off the runway, the Q400 slots perfectly in between other takeoff and landings at the airport, making great 'fillers'. You probably still won't t/o in one behind a heavy landing, but it still performance exceptionally well in this regard, even compared to larger ac such as 320s etc


Goodness me, I disagree with pretty much all of that! What world actually needs is to be rid of these 'beauties' (dogs)... Yes, they burn about a ton of fuel an hour but the fun stops there, let me assure you..! They are also getting rather long in the tooth and have had a long and hard life - some were knackered when I used to fly them 10 years ago, I doubt things have improved much. Once Flybe has been assimilated I can't imagine these hanging around for too much longer, not when DL have huge buying power for hundreds of A220s, expect that to be the future... not these old heaps.


I presume Virgin Atlantic would buy new ones for it's new UK routes from LHR?! Or perhaps the 220 is a better plane to fly those routes. Thanks!


They still make them?! Perish the thought... Knowing Virgin, I don't think turboprops are the path they are going to choose going forward. They'll likely want a single fleet that can do all things around the 'proposed' European and Domestic network. Manchester on one hand, Lisbon on the other. One type, like others have proven, works in Europe. Virgin are all about the customer experience, and being crammed into a bus, driven out to a remote stand and then stood shivering on steps queuing to board on a cold, grey drizzly morning isn't what they are aiming for. Especially if you plan on connecting people with any sort of finesse.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:32 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

With DL/AF/KL already having dominant hubs at CDG and AMS, do you think European competition authorities would be keen on VS establishing essentially a third hub at LHR, giving the jv good hubs at the top 3 European airports?

Then again, with Brexit, it may not matter what European authorities say.


Not at all. As numerous others have pointed outC this increases competition. Not sure why you are so focused on there being an additional hub as anticompetitive.


I’m not certain of that.

I think it depends whether the competition authorities regard the “relevant market” as being LHR only (in which event it increases competition) or if it includes CDG, AMS, FRA etc (in which event it arguably reduces competition given DL/AF/KL/VS market share).


It’s not LHR only, it’s about Europe as a whole. An expanded VS presence to the proposed scale would give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv a third Euro hub (one for all top 3 airports in Europe) and a pretty substantial advantage in the long haul market, both to the Americas and Asia. BA and LH would have trouble responding.
 
jagraham
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:43 am

oldannyboy wrote:
global1 wrote:
Fascinating to see how Virgin will dovetail with WestJet, Aeromexico,Gol, China Eastern, Korean Air, add lift to India to help with the demise of Jet,and inaugurate service to Delta focus cities Austin and Raleigh Durham.

Yet to be factored in are possible synergies with a “New Alitalia” which will most likely have Delta as an investor.

LHR could evolve eventually as a Delta hub. Nowhere near the scale of BA, but when you add AMS, CDG, FCO(?), and possibly MAN, there’s enough coverage there to make them a real contender for some very juicy corporate contracts.

Delta’s global strategy is unfolding.


Wishful thinking at the very best my friend.



DL refocused VS on JFK when they got to have their say. And both went from bit players alone to a significant contender together. In the most lucrative city pair anywhere.

The real question is IF new slots materialize, and IF VS gets some of them, will they (VS/DL of course) NOT use some to add more JFK service?

In the meantime, if they are serious about an European network using BE, that will happen before the 3rd runway at LHR.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:18 am

BNAMealer wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Not at all. As numerous others have pointed outC this increases competition. Not sure why you are so focused on there being an additional hub as anticompetitive.


I’m not certain of that.

I think it depends whether the competition authorities regard the “relevant market” as being LHR only (in which event it increases competition) or if it includes CDG, AMS, FRA etc (in which event it arguably reduces competition given DL/AF/KL/VS market share).


It’s not LHR only, it’s about Europe as a whole. An expanded VS presence to the proposed scale would give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv a third Euro hub (one for all top 3 airports in Europe) and a pretty substantial advantage in the long haul market, both to the Americas and Asia. BA and LH would have trouble responding.


Except IAG (which fully owns BA) also has BCN, DUB, and small focus cities elsewhere. LH has large hubs in FRA and MUC, plus decent hubs ZRH, BRU, VIE. Those are each under a single airline group. AF/KLM/DL/VS is not. There are enormous differences. And Europe would not be the relevant market. This isn’t anticompetitive whatsoever.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:31 am

A321200 wrote:
Virgin are all about the customer experience, and being crammed into a bus, driven out to a remote stand and then stood shivering on steps queuing to board on a cold, grey drizzly morning isn't what they are aiming for. Especially if you plan on connecting people with any sort of finesse.


That's not to say it doesn't happen already. When I landed into MAN from MCO 3 years ago, our 747 went onto a remote stand we were bussed over to the terminal. It was the first time I've ever disembarked from a 747 using stairs and all before part of T2 was closed off for redevelopment. I believe a number of Caribbean airports VS serve use stairs and BA don't always use airbridges (e.g. the 77W that recently did a LHR-MAN-LHR round trip vice the usual Airbus, though I suspect that could be down to a lack of suitable gates at T3).

As for A220's, I can see that happening but I can't see props disappearing entirely from the fleet unless they completely ditch the thinner routes and smaller destinations. Although I'm no fan of the Dash 8, they and the ATR 72's are still the best plane for some routes, plus short-term they need to turn the operation around so it's profitable first before embarking upon major capex such as new aircraft.
 
jomur
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:42 am

Ain't going to happen.. VS won't get all the slots they want to run these routes, didn't they want the vast majority of the new slots a 3rd run way would generate? Any way they could operate these route now if they thought that they where that profitable. I'm sure every other airline at LHR has a similar wish list if they had the extra slots.
 
phollingsworth
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:44 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
A321200 wrote:
Virgin are all about the customer experience, and being crammed into a bus, driven out to a remote stand and then stood shivering on steps queuing to board on a cold, grey drizzly morning isn't what they are aiming for. Especially if you plan on connecting people with any sort of finesse.


That's not to say it doesn't happen already. When I landed into MAN from MCO 3 years ago, our 747 went onto a remote stand we were bussed over to the terminal. It was the first time I've ever disembarked from a 747 using stairs and all before part of T2 was closed off for redevelopment. I believe a number of Caribbean airports VS serve use stairs and BA don't always use airbridges (e.g. the 77W that recently did a LHR-MAN-LHR round trip vice the usual Airbus, though I suspect that could be down to a lack of suitable gates at T3).

As for A220's, I can see that happening but I can't see props disappearing entirely from the fleet unless they completely ditch the thinner routes and smaller destinations. Although I'm no fan of the Dash 8, they and the ATR 72's are still the best plane for some routes, plus short-term they need to turn the operation around so it's profitable first before embarking upon major capex such as new aircraft.


I am pessimistic on A220s showing up in the FlyBe fleet in the near future. The airframe is just too big for their current ops base. I know they made a colossal blunder when they opted for the E195 over the E190, but even the 190s would probably be out in the current environment. For now the E2s would be a much better match against the near and medium term trends. Both DL and KL have a long history with Embraer and could would have no trouble securing good deals for Virgin. Now by the time a 3rd runway at LHR is finished who knows where they will be.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:45 am

A321200 wrote:
They still make them?! Perish the thought... Knowing Virgin, I don't think turboprops are the path they are going to choose going forward. They'll likely want a single fleet that can do all things around the 'proposed' European and Domestic network. Manchester on one hand, Lisbon on the other. One type, like others have proven, works in Europe. Virgin are all about the customer experience, and being crammed into a bus, driven out to a remote stand and then stood shivering on steps queuing to board on a cold, grey drizzly morning isn't what they are aiming for. Especially if you plan on connecting people with any sort of finesse.


Busses are the immediate future for VS at LHR, until BE relocate to T3 or Heathrow East (T2) is built and VS/DL move in. The flyBe services could be operated by jets - but T3 can’t handle domestic arrivals or departures. So they will have to choose their customers being bussed between terminals or bussed to the aircraft.

This master plan seems fanciful. There is nothing to stop VS operating NCE and MOW with “free” slots from IAG. Except that they currently have leased-out slots, of course. VS seem to want a guaranteed tranche of free slots from R3, instead of competing for them with the likes of easyJet, Ryanair or IAG. I can understand why VS is worried. These groups have a thousand, or so, narrow bodies on order between them. If easyJet, FR and IAG based a dozen A320/737s at LHR on the day R3 opened, the place would soon be “full”. All three groups could also fly aircraft in from bases outside London, especially FR and U2, for those all-important early morning arrivals.
 
vfw614
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:50 am

I would not spill too much ink over that "proposal". This is purely political communication and while I would not say the destinations have been picked arbitrarily, they are certainly merely there to illustrate how expansion of LHR in times of a PM who has been anti-LHR in the past could lead to the creation of a strong second UK airline force.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:14 am

jbs2886 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:

I’m not certain of that.

I think it depends whether the competition authorities regard the “relevant market” as being LHR only (in which event it increases competition) or if it includes CDG, AMS, FRA etc (in which event it arguably reduces competition given DL/AF/KL/VS market share).


It’s not LHR only, it’s about Europe as a whole. An expanded VS presence to the proposed scale would give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv a third Euro hub (one for all top 3 airports in Europe) and a pretty substantial advantage in the long haul market, both to the Americas and Asia. BA and LH would have trouble responding.


Except IAG (which fully owns BA) also has BCN, DUB, and small focus cities elsewhere. LH has large hubs in FRA and MUC, plus decent hubs ZRH, BRU, VIE. Those are each under a single airline group. AF/KLM/DL/VS is not. There are enormous differences. And Europe would not be the relevant market. This isn’t anticompetitive whatsoever.


BCN, DUB, ZRH, MUC, BRU, VIE, etc, are not on the same level connectivity-wise as LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA. Those 4 are the primary long haul connecting hubs in Europe. DL/AF/KL/VS would be gaining hubs at 3 of those 4 airports if VS expands to the scale they want at LHR. That carries significant more weight than having hubs in the likes of DUB/BCN/BRU, etc.
 
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itripreport
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:27 am

jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


Because on high season, Mexico City receives:
5 Daily MAD flights (3 Iberia, and 2 Aeromexico)
3 Daily CDG flights (1 Air France, 2 Aeromexico)
2 Daily LHR flights (1 British, 1 Aeromexico)
2 Daily BCN flights (1 Emirates, 1 Aeromexico)
2 Daily AMS flights (1 KLM, 1 Aeromexico)
2 Daily HND flights (1 ANA, 1 Aeromexico)
1 Daily FRA flight (Lufthansa)
1 Daily FCO flight (Alitalia)

Which means there's definitely high demand for Mexico, as most of these routes didn't exist a few years back
 
DominoxX
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:18 am

Those pointing out that VS cut their routes not long ago are living in the past, strategic management looks into the future, basic stuff.
Thank u, next.
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 434
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:36 am

seat1a wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the UK routes from LHR would have to be props (Q400?) to be profitable (or something like that). Could that work at LHR given the high costs of operating there, i.e., a whole bunch of Q400s flying routes to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Belfast, Jersey, Newquay, et.al.?
Thanks


Afraid I just don't see this. Heathrow's third runway is 6/7 years off at best and by then the Q400s really will be long in the tooth. Virgin have got to publish these plans now in order to prepare, once Virgin are designated additional slot they will have to use them otherwise they are lost (that is Heathrow's policy and has been for some time). While VS could lease slots out to essentially 'sit on them', this is not a long-term solution and cannot be done with as many slots as one pleases.

Virgin need to know what kind of extra slots will be allocated so they can order new aircraft. My guess would be the A220, but realistically anything narrowbody is on the cards.

One major issue the Q400 has is overhead bin and hold luggage space, if VS want to create a hub-network with narrowbody European feed they'll have families with upto 2 hold and 2 cabin bags EACH in Upper Class - the Q400 is by no means a realistic long term solution
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:40 pm

Philippine747 wrote:
Surprised about CGK being on the roadmap. Isn't Garuda struggling on that route (which may or may not be their fault)?


Yes. But VS have better jets than GA (787-9, A350-1000, and the A330-900 might be able to make the route). And since VS is de facto Skyteam it is possible that VS could plug in with both Garuda and Delta FFs.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:02 pm

DominoxX wrote:
Those pointing out that VS cut their routes not long ago are living in the past, strategic management looks into the future, basic stuff.

Aww BS! The sound tactical reasons these routes were axed need to change markedly before market conditions would welcome another go. Of course that does happen but not with VS to Canada et al.

As for “building a European network using flybe before a third runway”, that is near literally impossible, even if they were flush with cash.

Reality check!
 
seat1a
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:31 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the UK routes from LHR would have to be props (Q400?) to be profitable (or something like that). Could that work at LHR given the high costs of operating there, i.e., a whole bunch of Q400s flying routes to Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Belfast, Jersey, Newquay, et.al.?
Thanks


Afraid I just don't see this. Heathrow's third runway is 6/7 years off at best and by then the Q400s really will be long in the tooth. Virgin have got to publish these plans now in order to prepare, once Virgin are designated additional slot they will have to use them otherwise they are lost (that is Heathrow's policy and has been for some time). While VS could lease slots out to essentially 'sit on them', this is not a long-term solution and cannot be done with as many slots as one pleases.

Virgin need to know what kind of extra slots will be allocated so they can order new aircraft. My guess would be the A220, but realistically anything narrowbody is on the cards.

One major issue the Q400 has is overhead bin and hold luggage space, if VS want to create a hub-network with narrowbody European feed they'll have families with upto 2 hold and 2 cabin bags EACH in Upper Class - the Q400 is by no means a realistic long term solution


Interesting points about baggage space with the Q400. Thanks.
What are your thoughts that flights would be more O&D focused or is Virgin more about connections. Presume the latter.
 
Cunard
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:05 am

ewt340 wrote:
Philippine747 wrote:
Surprised about CGK being on the roadmap. Isn't Garuda struggling on that route (which may or may not be their fault)?


Passengers tend to choose to fly with their local airlines instead of flying with foreign airlines.
Garuda uses 314 seats B777-300ER to fly to London. While VS could use their smaller B787-9 with 264 seats.
There is no direct flight from London and Jakarta. Hence no competitions.
Garuda Indonesia sucks (their FA and food are actually excellent) but their ground service and staff, it ain't working. They are not popular/


Please keep up.

From 29 October 2019 Garuda will fly DPS-KNO-LHR-KNO-DPS three times weekly on a Tuesday Thursday and Saturday with the A330-900 of which they have 14 examples on order.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:24 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Didnt VS used to have a more extensive route map?

Didnt they cut many of those money losing routes to return to their North Atlantic core strength?

Didnt they also have a bunch of slots for regional routes?

Didnt they bleed money on these routes too?

Wasnt all of this not that long ago?


A lot has changed in that short space of time....new aircraft, new focus, new management, Delta tie up and JV, the buyout of Flybe in conjunction with Connect Airways.

I think that you seem to forget that VS have recently resumed LHR to Mumbai, expanded their Manchester operations, opening up new routes such as LHR to Tel Aviv and opening up their first South American route to Brazil next year when they commence operations to Sao Paulo on the 29 March 2020.

During it's 36 year history Virgin Atlantic has previously served many destinations worldwide such as.....

Europe

Aberdeen (formerly Virgin Little Red flown by Aer Lingus)
Dublin
Edinburgh (formerly Virgin Little Red flown by Aer Lingus)
Luton
Maastricht

North America

Chicago
Detroit
Toronto
Vancouver

Caribbean and the Bahamas

Kingston
Nassau
San Juan
St Lucia (ceasing 28 March 2020)
Varadero

Africa

Accra
Cape Town
Mauritius
Nairobi

Asia

Dubai
Tokyo Narita

Oceania

Sydney
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:30 am

jfern022 wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, the whole FlyBe deal was geared more towards MAN and LGW? No slots at LHR?


I'm going to personally correct you as I'm afraid that you are wrong.

Flybe no longer fly from LGW having sold all of their slots at the airport to Easyjet over a year ago.

The Flybe deal as originally quoted in the official press release when the Connect Airways consortium purchased the airline would be geared towards LHR and MAN and the region's. LGW won't play any part in it as Flybe no longer serve the airport.
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:39 am

ewt340 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


British Airways didn't fly to places like Addis Ababa, Auckland, Bogota, Fortaleza, Havana, Jakarta, Kolkata, Kunming, Panama, Raleigh–Durham, Xi'an.

In Calgary and Lima, BA only fly seasonal routes.

All of these routes apart from Jakarta and Auckland. Are around or below 10-hours. So lower risk compared to longer routes. Utilizing plane like A330-900neo would be quite logical instead of B787-9.


Of all of the destination's that you state that British Airways ''didn't fly to'' your only correct on four which are.....

Forteleza, Kunming, Raleigh-Durham and Xi'an.

British Airways have previously flown to all of the other ''places'' on your incorrect list.

FYI Calgary was previously flown year round and for many years.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:46 am

tonystan wrote:
I see Sir Dickie is getting his letter to Santa out early this year.


Sir Dickie as you call him or otherwise known by his official title of Sir Richard Branson is not involved in the day today operations of Virgin Atlantic and he is not personally responsible for route planning, he has a management team for that!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:04 am

Cunard wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Didnt VS used to have a more extensive route map?

Didnt they cut many of those money losing routes to return to their North Atlantic core strength?

Didnt they also have a bunch of slots for regional routes?

Didnt they bleed money on these routes too?

Wasnt all of this not that long ago?


A lot has changed in that short space of time....new aircraft, new focus, new management, Delta tie up and JV, the buyout of Flybe in conjunction with Connect Airways.

I think that you seem to forget that VS have recently resumed LHR to Mumbai, expanded their Manchester operations, opening up new routes such as LHR to Tel Aviv and opening up their first South American route to Brazil next year when they commence operations to Sao Paulo on the 29 March 2020.

During it's 36 year history Virgin Atlantic has previously served many destinations worldwide such as.....

Europe

Aberdeen (formerly Virgin Little Red flown by Aer Lingus)
Dublin
Edinburgh (formerly Virgin Little Red flown by Aer Lingus)
Luton
Maastricht

North America

Chicago
Detroit
Toronto
Vancouver

Caribbean and the Bahamas

Kingston
Nassau
San Juan
St Lucia (ceasing 28 March 2020)
Varadero

Africa

Accra
Cape Town
Mauritius
Nairobi

Asia

Dubai
Tokyo Narita

Oceania

Sydney


Edit.....I missed Athens as another former Virgin Atlantic destination.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
ewt340
Posts: 818
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:59 am

Cunard wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Why would Virgin want to fly to Bogota, Panama and Mexico City ? Sydney, Capetown, Peking, Austin and Buenos Aires are understandable. Tokyo would be priority one today. Chicago should be viable but with America's two biggest airlines there its a challenge and has proved to be in the past for Virgin.


British Airways didn't fly to places like Addis Ababa, Auckland, Bogota, Fortaleza, Havana, Jakarta, Kolkata, Kunming, Panama, Raleigh–Durham, Xi'an.

In Calgary and Lima, BA only fly seasonal routes.

All of these routes apart from Jakarta and Auckland. Are around or below 10-hours. So lower risk compared to longer routes. Utilizing plane like A330-900neo would be quite logical instead of B787-9.


Of all of the destination's that you state that British Airways ''didn't fly to'' your only correct on four which are.....

Forteleza, Kunming, Raleigh-Durham and Xi'an.

British Airways have previously flown to all of the other ''places'' on your incorrect list.

FYI Calgary was previously flown year round and for many years.


Currently FLY TO and PREVIOUSLY flown to are 2 extremely different thing.

Just because they flew there before doesn't mean that they currently fly there now or in the future.
 
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dabpit
Posts: 814
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Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:53 pm

With the collapse of Thomas Cook UK, what is the chance that Virgin Atlantic would make a move for some of those aircraft and crew?
Could this be a chance for VS to start regional/domestic ops again?
Carpe Diem
 
Ellofiend
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:31 pm

Well TLV is commencing tomorrow, should be interesting to see the yield rates on these flights. I imagine in my un-informed view that VS is one of the last carriers LY wanted to compete with, I assume a good chunk of the tourism is from back-packers which VS no-doubt has their business marked with.
 
A321200
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:41 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:43 pm

dabpit wrote:
With the collapse of Thomas Cook UK, what is the chance that Virgin Atlantic would make a move for some of those aircraft and crew?
Could this be a chance for VS to start regional/domestic ops again?


I would imagine MAN would see some changes/expansion going forward, given that there is no based scheduled competitor up there any longer. There's also a large hangar that was once Thomas Cook's. Given the scale of the TCX operation in MAN, it would be nice to see expansion plans ramped up for VS in MAN, especially for the sake of the now displaced TCX crew. However, I suppose you need a lead-in time to create a schedule and sell tickets so nothing's going to happen overnight. The biggest problem is aircraft availability. I'm not sure whether TCX's A330s were owned or leased but even if they were up for grabs, I believe they were rather old frames with an odd cabin config that VS couldn't fly immediately anyway without an expensive refit. Perhaps the options they have for more A330Neos could be exercised and they can have a serious think about the opportunity they have in MAN now, and how it's all going to integrate into Connect alongside LHR.
 
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africawings
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:47 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:57 pm

RE:SCQ83 wrote:
It looks like they want to become the Air Europa of LHR. A second airline with a mixed focus on O&D and connecting traffic.
I don't know why MAN is even brought to this thread. London is where the demand is.

BNAMealer wrote:
1. I’m pretty sure an expanded VS presence at LHR will lead to an antitrust investigation, considering it would essentially give the DL/AF/KL/VS jv and unfair advantage..
------------------

Agreed. I recall as a kid flying from the US and from Nigeria to London Gatwick as British Caledonian (my favourite airline at the time) didn't have slots at LHR. They did very very well out of Gatwick. Why can't VS start their expanded plans out of LGW and consolidate if they ever get LHR Slots?
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:37 pm

BCAL was fighting nail over tooth to gain access to LHR but it was the UK Government, British Airways and Bermuda II that prevented them from doing so. If BCAL had the opportunity to relocate to LHR they would have done so as soon as they could. But the reasons that I have given totally prohibited BCAL from doing so. Sure BCAL done very well out of LGW but they knew they could do better at LHR if they had the opportunity to do so but that wasn't the case.

When Terminal 4 was being built at LHR, BCAL tried to get the UK Government to change the rules to allow the United kingdom's second carrier to fly from London's premier airport but with no avail especially as the Government was about to privatise British Airways.

LHR was not opened to new airline entrants until October 1991, this allowed Virgin Atlantic by then the United kingdom's second flag carrier to gain access to LHR. That was over four years after BCAL was taken over/merged into British Airways after nearly going bankrupt after huge losses due to circumstances beyond the airline's control.

I don't need to explain those particular circumstances as the information is easily accessible online especially on the British Caledonian Airways Wikipedia page.

Although Virgin Atlantic has a presence at LGW but the operation is a shadow of it's former self. With the recent reductions at LGW by VS I don't see them refocusing their operations there. The recent announcement that VS will resume LGW to JFK has only come about via the JV with DL and is purely there to put off any moves made by B6 entering LGW when they finally announce their choice of London airport for when they commence transatlantic operations.

BTW BCAL is my all time favourite airline and I totally love that airline with all my heart even if they haven't been around for the last 32 year's. How I wish that they still existed :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic mega master for more routes in LHR

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:07 am

ewt340 wrote:
Cunard wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

British Airways didn't fly to places like Addis Ababa, Auckland, Bogota, Fortaleza, Havana, Jakarta, Kolkata, Kunming, Panama, Raleigh–Durham, Xi'an.

In Calgary and Lima, BA only fly seasonal routes.

All of these routes apart from Jakarta and Auckland. Are around or below 10-hours. So lower risk compared to longer routes. Utilizing plane like A330-900neo would be quite logical instead of B787-9.


Of all of the destination's that you state that British Airways ''didn't fly to'' your only correct on four which are.....

Forteleza, Kunming, Raleigh-Durham and Xi'an.

British Airways have previously flown to all of the other ''places'' on your incorrect list.

FYI Calgary was previously flown year round and for many years.


Currently FLY TO and PREVIOUSLY flown to are 2 extremely different thing.

Just because they flew there before doesn't mean that they currently fly there now or in the future.


DID and DIDN'T flown are two extremely ''different thing's'' or to be correct two different PHRASES.

You clearly stated DIDN'T fly to. You did not use the phrase ''PREVIOUSLY'' flown to!

Your changing your stance but it's quite clear what you typed!
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