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777Mech
Topic Author
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WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:16 am

Any info? I don't think there's any facilities there to handle pax.

I know ATL had weather, but surely they had better alternates.
 
WN732
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:25 am

777Mech wrote:
Any info? I don't think there's any facilities there to handle pax.

I know ATL had weather, but surely they had better alternates.


Perhaps this was more of a fuel situation. Or the possibility that they would run into the same conditions at the published alternate. And I am sure that everyone and their mother would be heading to the same alternates.
 
usflyguy
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:34 am

They landed. Passengers disembarked. Passengers bussed the 25 mins to ATL. If you look at a tracking website, you’ll see it circled ATL half a dozen times. Divert to a further airport, wait, and potentially cancel or divert close by that is easily with a quick drive. Hmmmmm...
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:54 am

ATL had an unforecast TS about 2100-2200. Many flights airborne without alternate fuel. CHA got slammed with mainline Delta diversions.
 
alasizon
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:07 am

usflyguy wrote:
They landed. Passengers disembarked. Passengers bussed the 25 mins to ATL. If you look at a tracking website, you’ll see it circled ATL half a dozen times. Divert to a further airport, wait, and potentially cancel or divert close by that is easily with a quick drive. Hmmmmm...


If they that easily had a bus available and ready to go for passengers, then this is likely a playbook procedure/plan for WN in ATL to help with operational recovery and they chose to execute it rather than diverting farther away and possibly running the risk of not being able to get the pax to ATL same day.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
777Mech
Topic Author
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:33 am

alasizon wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
They landed. Passengers disembarked. Passengers bussed the 25 mins to ATL. If you look at a tracking website, you’ll see it circled ATL half a dozen times. Divert to a further airport, wait, and potentially cancel or divert close by that is easily with a quick drive. Hmmmmm...


If they that easily had a bus available and ready to go for passengers, then this is likely a playbook procedure/plan for WN in ATL to help with operational recovery and they chose to execute it rather than diverting farther away and possibly running the risk of not being able to get the pax to ATL same day.


There's a question of who does the ground handling and fueling for them. There is no FBO, only Lockheed Martin and the Air Force are there.
 
Varsity1
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:57 pm

777Mech wrote:
alasizon wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
They landed. Passengers disembarked. Passengers bussed the 25 mins to ATL. If you look at a tracking website, you’ll see it circled ATL half a dozen times. Divert to a further airport, wait, and potentially cancel or divert close by that is easily with a quick drive. Hmmmmm...


If they that easily had a bus available and ready to go for passengers, then this is likely a playbook procedure/plan for WN in ATL to help with operational recovery and they chose to execute it rather than diverting farther away and possibly running the risk of not being able to get the pax to ATL same day.


There's a question of who does the ground handling and fueling for them. There is no FBO, only Lockheed Martin and the Air Force are there.


They can drive a fuel truck from an FBO at a nearby airport.

The Air Force will also refuel with the right release of liability and fees. It's common for diversions to places like Thule. It's really expensive unless you're flying on a government control like K4 or GTI do.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:15 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Any info? I don't think there's any facilities there to handle pax.

I know ATL had weather, but surely they had better alternates.


Says the armchair dispatcher/PIC...completely unproductive comment. You have no idea what was going on up there.


Better is subjective - and open to judgement at the time even by dispatchers.

It's fair to say that ATL diversions to Robbins ARB are less common than CHA/BHM/MGM/GSP, is it not?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:16 pm

Almost certainly, the airlines have arrangements made for support at bases. Most bases have a stair truck or two, fueling is easy.

GF
 
sprxUSA
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:18 pm

Probably get the same ground support as a charter into/out of a military base.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
Oilman
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:37 pm

I’ve lived in Atlanta for a long time and have never heard of a diversion to Robbins. Their fuel situation must have been very tight. There’s irony here, too. I bet there were a handful of people on the plane who live in Northwest Atlanta. A lot of folks would like regular commercial service there, too.

Edited because I can’t spell
Last edited by Oilman on Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
jayspilot
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:32 pm

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:38 pm

This must have been a stressful event for the flight crew and I would be very curious to see the fuel remaining onboard after landing.

They look to have done 3 approaches (two at atl for different runways and one at Dobbins) before actually landing the Jet on the ground on the 4th one from the number of circles on the flightaware report. that's a lot of low level fuel burn.

glad all worked out
 
Oilman
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:43 pm

Does anyone know where the plane is now? Flightaware and Flightradar24 don’t show N743SW departing MGE. It also looks like Southwest flew an extra section (WN9016) to cover the next leg, ATL-MCO, instead of WN2574.

Edited because I still can’t spell.
Last edited by Oilman on Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
jayspilot
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:44 pm

also with regards to CHA diversions, I count 12 mainline DL.. those fueling delays look like they were 3 hours long.
 
commpilot
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:52 pm

For the amount of DOD flying SWA does on a near daily basis, it is probably very easy to have gotten services in such a non standard diversion.
 
capitalflyer
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:08 pm

Looking at Flightaware, looks like it is expected in MCI for an evening flight to DEN. FR24 shows it on the ground at Dobbins still. Crew may have timed out so couldn't wait and move the aircraft to ATL later. I assume they will bus a crew over from ATL later to take it to MCI? Interesting they can afford to leave an aircraft sitting all day.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:23 pm

Oilman wrote:
I’ve lived in Atlanta for a long time and have never heard of a diversion to Robbins. Their fuel situation must have been very tight. There’s irony here, too. I bet there were a handful of people on the plane who live in Northwest Atlanta. A lot of folks would like regular commercial service there, too.

Edited because I can’t spell


It’s DOBBINS ARB, Robins AFB (with one B) is near Macon.

GF
 
capitalflyer
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:27 pm

FR24 has it heading to ATL in the next few minutes.
 
drdisque
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:00 pm

Interestingly, MCN took zero diversions last night and AGS only took 2 (that may have been all they had the ramp space to handle).
 
ScottB
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:24 pm

WN732 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Any info? I don't think there's any facilities there to handle pax.

I know ATL had weather, but surely they had better alternates.


Perhaps this was more of a fuel situation. Or the possibility that they would run into the same conditions at the published alternate. And I am sure that everyone and their mother would be heading to the same alternates.


WN does quite a few military charters in the overnight hours so there's a decent shot their dispatchers are familiar with MGE. And their nearest station is BHM which no doubt was already pretty busy. Diverting to MGE was probably no more disruptive than going to an airport they don't serve which would have had dozens of DL aircraft on the ground waiting for ATL to reopen.
 
flyXJT
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:27 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
They can drive a fuel truck from an FBO at a nearby airport.


Its not exactly as easy as that. Nearly all into-plane fuel providers and FBO fuel trucks aren't registered for road use, nor do the employees have CDLs to operate a truck full of gas over the road.


It is far more likely that they got fuel from MGE and WN will get it paid on the back end.
 
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litz
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:38 pm

alasizon wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
They landed. Passengers disembarked. Passengers bussed the 25 mins to ATL. If you look at a tracking website, you’ll see it circled ATL half a dozen times. Divert to a further airport, wait, and potentially cancel or divert close by that is easily with a quick drive. Hmmmmm...


If they that easily had a bus available and ready to go for passengers, then this is likely a playbook procedure/plan for WN in ATL to help with operational recovery and they chose to execute it rather than diverting farther away and possibly running the risk of not being able to get the pax to ATL same day.


Dobbins is in Marietta, GA, one of the largest suburbs of Atlanta. There are a half dozen to a dozen bus companies in Marietta alone, literally minutes away. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to find out more than one of them leases parking lot space from Lockheed right on the property.

The airfield itself is a mere 10 minutes or so off ATL's perimeter highway, and maybe 25 minutes from the ATL airport itself (or more, if traffic ... this is Atlanta, after all).

This was NOT a "land in the boondocks" event. This would be like diverting from O'hare and landing at Midway. Heck, it's probably closer.
 
KCaviator
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:17 pm

litz wrote:
alasizon wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
They landed. Passengers disembarked. Passengers bussed the 25 mins to ATL. If you look at a tracking website, you’ll see it circled ATL half a dozen times. Divert to a further airport, wait, and potentially cancel or divert close by that is easily with a quick drive. Hmmmmm...


If they that easily had a bus available and ready to go for passengers, then this is likely a playbook procedure/plan for WN in ATL to help with operational recovery and they chose to execute it rather than diverting farther away and possibly running the risk of not being able to get the pax to ATL same day.


Dobbins is in Marietta, GA, one of the largest suburbs of Atlanta. There are a half dozen to a dozen bus companies in Marietta alone, literally minutes away. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to find out more than one of them leases parking lot space from Lockheed right on the property.

The airfield itself is a mere 10 minutes or so off ATL's perimeter highway, and maybe 25 minutes from the ATL airport itself (or more, if traffic ... this is Atlanta, after all).

This was NOT a "land in the boondocks" event. This would be like diverting from O'hare and landing at Midway. Heck, it's probably closer.


Diverting to an airport not defined in your OpSpecs (assuming) as an alternate airport is A LOT different than diverting from ORD to MDW, especially it being a military airport.

I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.

This, to me, sounds like a worst case scenario. Because of the weather, the crew probably backed themselves into a corner in terms of fuel, with very limited options remaining. It can easily happen when carrying no alternate fuel and an unexpected delay happens. The most important fact is that everyone ended up on the ground safe.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:37 pm

KCaviator wrote:
I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.


I am not a pilot so maybe this is a dumb question, but with electronic chart apps now, do airlines still really only load their stations and alternates? You would think that with memory being cheap that they would load all airports with runways over a certain length.

On that note too, if WN does all these DOD charters, wouldn't Dobbins be on their list?
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
BravoOne
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:48 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Any info? I don't think there's any facilities there to handle pax.

I know ATL had weather, but surely they had better alternates.


Says the armchair dispatcher/PIC...completely unproductive comment. You have no idea what was going on up there.


Tried to send you a PM but it appears you do not accept incomming mail?
 
BravoOne
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:52 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.


I am not a pilot so maybe this is a dumb question, but with electronic chart apps now, do airlines still really only load their stations and alternates? You would think that with memory being cheap that they would load all airports with runways over a certain length.

On that note too, if WN does all these DOD charters, wouldn't Dobbins be on their list?


Several options, either electronically (JeppView), or via paper. Don't know what system SWA uses.
 
WN732
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:06 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.


I am not a pilot so maybe this is a dumb question, but with electronic chart apps now, do airlines still really only load their stations and alternates? You would think that with memory being cheap that they would load all airports with runways over a certain length.

On that note too, if WN does all these DOD charters, wouldn't Dobbins be on their list?


Generally they would pick an airport that is already a WN station. However, the closest airports to ATL are usually subject to the same weather and/or already flooded with traffic. Sequencing in these situations can be tricky and time consuming. Judging by the hold that they were subject to, they were probably getting too low on fuel to risk any delays while getting to a preferred alternate. Ops would have been able to coordinate their diversion and the pilots would work with their dispatch and ATC to get on the ground.
 
777Mech
Topic Author
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:00 pm

KCaviator wrote:
litz wrote:
alasizon wrote:

If they that easily had a bus available and ready to go for passengers, then this is likely a playbook procedure/plan for WN in ATL to help with operational recovery and they chose to execute it rather than diverting farther away and possibly running the risk of not being able to get the pax to ATL same day.


Dobbins is in Marietta, GA, one of the largest suburbs of Atlanta. There are a half dozen to a dozen bus companies in Marietta alone, literally minutes away. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to find out more than one of them leases parking lot space from Lockheed right on the property.

The airfield itself is a mere 10 minutes or so off ATL's perimeter highway, and maybe 25 minutes from the ATL airport itself (or more, if traffic ... this is Atlanta, after all).

This was NOT a "land in the boondocks" event. This would be like diverting from O'hare and landing at Midway. Heck, it's probably closer.


Diverting to an airport not defined in your OpSpecs (assuming) as an alternate airport is A LOT different than diverting from ORD to MDW, especially it being a military airport.

I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.

This, to me, sounds like a worst case scenario. Because of the weather, the crew probably backed themselves into a corner in terms of fuel, with very limited options remaining. It can easily happen when carrying no alternate fuel and an unexpected delay happens. The most important fact is that everyone ended up on the ground safe.


You could get from CSG, AGS, MCN, and BHM all in the same day, and all of those had good weather at the time.

I know DL uses MGE as a paper alternate for it's international flights into ATL if the weather is good, but I doubt MGE is in SWA's opspecs.

It does seem like they were on the borderline of emergency fuel. I was stationed at the 94th and it isn't a particularly busy installation. I can't remember a time any commercial aircraft have been at MGE besides a DL 757 for the airshow.

Any troop movement I've ever been a part of, we were bused to ATL for our charter instead of flying directly out of MGE.

Bottom line, this isn't a playbook move for SWA and they backed themselves into a corner with their fuel situation.
 
747-600X
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:12 pm

The flight did two missed approaches in KATL. At that point, the crew likely felt that they did not have enough fuel to divert to a more reasonable alternate (KAGS, KCHA, etc.) comfortably. Remember that airlines are only authorized to fly to certain airports, so even though there may have been relatively close civilian airports, the crew and dispatcher may not have been readily aware of them. Many Southwest pilots are former military and they may have known of KMGE and its 10,000-foot runway being so close. They also flew a missed approach attempting to land at KMGE, possibly per a military requirement for verification of an unauthorized aircraft arrival. It's also important to remember that when a crew declares a fuel emergency (and even if they don't), air traffic controllers can provide them with available fields. In this case, ATC may have noted KMGE among others in the area. There aren't many good options near KATL - DeKalb has a 6000' runway and Cobb County Int'l has a 5200' foot runway. Given those choices or KMGE, it's sensible that the crew chose the latter.
 
KCaviator
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:43 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.


I am not a pilot so maybe this is a dumb question, but with electronic chart apps now, do airlines still really only load their stations and alternates? You would think that with memory being cheap that they would load all airports with runways over a certain length.

On that note too, if WN does all these DOD charters, wouldn't Dobbins be on their list?


Believe it or not, we use JeppFD Pro X and do not have access to every airport’s charts. For the most part, we only have access to our normal and alternate airports.

Edit: for clarity, “we” is not WN.
 
ilovepabst
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:19 am

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:08 am

Where did the flight originate and was it a completely blown TAF or did ATL even have VCTS in the fcst?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6764
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:40 am

mpdpilot wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’m curious if there’s any WN pilots here than can chime in. Typically if an airport is not defined in your OpSpecs as an alternate airport, you don’t have charts for that airport. At least that’s how it is at my airline.


I am not a pilot so maybe this is a dumb question, but with electronic chart apps now, do airlines still really only load their stations and alternates? You would think that with memory being cheap that they would load all airports with runways over a certain length.

On that note too, if WN does all these DOD charters, wouldn't Dobbins be on their list?


Not airline, but I have Jeppesen World coverage for every approach with a 4,000’ runway anywhere in the world on an iPad plus each of the plane’s two file servers also had world coverage. We can display four different airports or four different procedures at once.

GF
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:54 am

ilovepabst wrote:
Where did the flight originate and was it a completely blown TAF or did ATL even have VCTS in the fcst?


Geez, can you please ask that in English? Do you think there is even one other person on A.net who understands those acronyms?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6764
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:14 am

I’ll translate for you,

Was the Terminal Area Forecast (TAF) wrong or did the ATL have thunderstorms in the vicinity (VCTS) in the aviation forecast (again, the TAF). For an aviation site, this isn’t a mystery.

GF
 
bravoindia
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:22 am

Yesterday was a train wreck with the microburst. This was an emergency fuel situation and they had to land Dobbins. They actually went around the first attempt.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:23 am

Yesterday was a train wreck with the microburst. This was an emergency fuel situation and they had to land Dobbins. They actually went around the first attempt. The controller did an excellent job getting them pointed to a piece of pavement.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:25 am

747-600X wrote:
The flight did two missed approaches in KATL. At that point, the crew likely felt that they did not have enough fuel to divert to a more reasonable alternate (KAGS, KCHA, etc.) comfortably. Remember that airlines are only authorized to fly to certain airports, so even though there may have been relatively close civilian airports, the crew and dispatcher may not have been readily aware of them. Many Southwest pilots are former military and they may have known of KMGE and its 10,000-foot runway being so close. They also flew a missed approach attempting to land at KMGE, possibly per a military requirement for verification of an unauthorized aircraft arrival. It's also important to remember that when a crew declares a fuel emergency (and even if they don't), air traffic controllers can provide them with available fields. In this case, ATC may have noted KMGE among others in the area. There aren't many good options near KATL - DeKalb has a 6000' runway and Cobb County Int'l has a 5200' foot runway. Given those choices or KMGE, it's sensible that the crew chose the latter.


They were emergency fuel not min fuel there were no alternates as they expected the last attempt at ATL to be successful the controller suggested Dobbins to which they accepted and the go around was due to them not descending on the glide path appropriately and were too high.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:43 am

SO 242 was trying to make Dobbins when they went down.
 
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litz
Posts: 2368
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Re: WN2574 diverts to MGE (Dobbins ARB, GA)

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:26 pm

242 taught the industry a lot of lessons on handling weather.

Had they not struck a phone pole with a wing, that airplane might have successfully completed its emergency landing on Hwy 92, as well.

They had already touched down and were rolling out when the phone pole was struck by a wing, cartwheeling the airplane into a gas station.

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