Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”
You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
M564038 wrote:There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.
enilria wrote:The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.
catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
enilria wrote:On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.
§121.589 Carry-on baggage.
(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.
enilria wrote:catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”
You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.
The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.
wjcandee wrote:Didn't they just make the plane heavier on paper by doing that. My understanding was the luggage in the hold is counted (and weighed? or standard weight) and that carry ons are included in a per person weight allowance in the cabin. Obviously, the actual weight is the same.Weight and balance is a possible issue. Maybe not, but maybe. Not completely-implausible. Let's not be a bunch of know-it-alls.
catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”
You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
FriscoHeavy wrote:catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”
You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
Before casting a stone, you need to realize that it could have indeed been a weight/balance issue. Bags that are moved to the hold from the cabin (or vice vera) are counted differently on paper. Were they likely telling you a tall tale? Probably. But by the same token, they may not have been. So, get off the high horse and realize it's possible they were not fibbing to you.
ual763 wrote:FriscoHeavy wrote:catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”
You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
Before casting a stone, you need to realize that it could have indeed been a weight/balance issue. Bags that are moved to the hold from the cabin (or vice vera) are counted differently on paper. Were they likely telling you a tall tale? Probably. But by the same token, they may not have been. So, get off the high horse and realize it's possible they were not fibbing to you.
Umm, no it is not moved because of an W/B issue... First of all, the weight doesn’t actually change. Second, if anything, as someone else mentioned, the action of gate checking unnecessary baggage actually increases their weight on paper. This is because the weight of each adult passenger (as determined by the FAA) has a carryon bag already figured into the number. However, when the bags are moved to the cargo hold, then they too, get counted as baggage and not carry-on. The airline does not then go back and subtract ~25lbs or so from the standard passenger weight.
So if anything, they (Delta) have created a weight and balance issue themselves on paper. The weights on paper now, will not match the actual weight of the aircraft.
alasizon wrote:The statement of the the cabin being too heavy for W&B makes no sense. However, it's not uncommon to see some routes require additional bags to be checked to help with adding more weight down below to fix the CG. Full load of pax plus light number of bags either requires ballast or additional bags on certain routes.
richierich wrote:skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
$25 paid and the slim but very real chance that my bag will not come down the carousel? Never mind that sometimes it can take an eternity for bags to arrive on the belt. No thanks. I pack carry-on whenever I can but sometimes I have to check.
skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
M564038 wrote:There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.
FriscoHeavy wrote:alasizon wrote:The statement of the the cabin being too heavy for W&B makes no sense. However, it's not uncommon to see some routes require additional bags to be checked to help with adding more weight down below to fix the CG. Full load of pax plus light number of bags either requires ballast or additional bags on certain routes.
Exactly this. Unfortunately, ual763 isn't fully informed and doesn't understand that is a possibility.
skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
bigb wrote:In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.
Boston757 wrote:I do know that when a passenger continues on to the aircraft with a gate checked bag on the bag and the flight Attendant pulls the tag they can subtract that approx weight and allow for more weight in the belly.
ssteve wrote:While the explanation is BS, have they sunk as low as United for basic economy regarding rollaboards? Probably not yet.
In other words, be careful what you dicker with them about, they'll just keep doing the same thing, but start charging for it. Then the explanation becomes, "you're a sucker, thanks for the money."
alasizon wrote:bigb wrote:In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.
Additional bags are an alternative to using the ballast.
CRJ-200 with a jumpseater will nearly always require ballast and a full load of 50 pax will require at least 1,000 lbs or so in the back of weight and if you are short on bags ballast has to make up that weight.
A lot of WN's flights into SNA requires about 30-40 bags to be checked when baggage volume is light to fix the CG. Now not many of the flights are light when it comes to bags overall due to the number of families traveling for vacation but it happens when the flight is business heavy.
Also there are times where the excess fuel that would normally be carried on the route is being used as ballast fuel but for whatever reason the fuel load has to be reduced. In that case you need additional weight to make up for it.Boston757 wrote:I do know that when a passenger continues on to the aircraft with a gate checked bag on the bag and the flight Attendant pulls the tag they can subtract that approx weight and allow for more weight in the belly.
The overhead bag is counted in the W&B whether it is there or not and for cargo bin purposes, only loaded bags are counted in the W&B. If the bag isn't loaded into the bin, it isn't factored into the W&B because as far as W&B is concerned, the bag doesn't exist down below.
AEROFAN wrote:skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
And then the airline loses the bag or the conveyor breaks down and it takes an hour before the bag shows up... lose the worry you say...
jumbojet wrote:whats so laughable is that how everyone on Anet gets super excited when Delta suffers a minor gaffe. You would think they dragged someone off a plane or something.
bigb wrote:alasizon wrote:bigb wrote:In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.
Additional bags are an alternative to using the ballast.
CRJ-200 with a jumpseater will nearly always require ballast and a full load of 50 pax will require at least 1,000 lbs or so in the back of weight and if you are short on bags ballast has to make up that weight.
A lot of WN's flights into SNA requires about 30-40 bags to be checked when baggage volume is light to fix the CG. Now not many of the flights are light when it comes to bags overall due to the number of families traveling for vacation but it happens when the flight is business heavy.
Also there are times where the excess fuel that would normally be carried on the route is being used as ballast fuel but for whatever reason the fuel load has to be reduced. In that case you need additional weight to make up for it.
Of course, but damn, what numbers where you using to need a 1000 pounds of ballast on a CRJ-200. I have yet to need that much ballast. The most I’ve needed was 500 lbs and that was it a jumpseater. I am know additional bags can used as ballast, but then again, I’ve stated I haven’t see the need to use bags as ballast yet.
richierich wrote:skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
$25 paid and the slim but very real chance that my bag will not come down the carousel? Never mind that sometimes it can take an eternity for bags to arrive on the belt. No thanks. I pack carry-on whenever I can but sometimes I have to check.
In fact, my most recent flight was on VS arriving at JFK. Bag was nowhere to be found prior to leaving customs, perhaps something to do with the 1.5 hour long line through immigration at T4. All the bags from my flight were consolidated into a small group of maybe 2-3 dozen bags, however my bag was not among them. After searching for 20-30 minutes and walking around several carousels, I exited customs. The DL baggage claim staff who handle VS flights were not particularly helpful. I had to come back to JFK two days later and sort through hundreds of abandoned(?) bags before finding mine - even though my phone number and email address were clearly labeled, I received exactly zero communication from either airline. In the office, I had been told "our system shows the bag is at JFK...there is nothing we can do."
enilria wrote:... Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.
enilria wrote:catiii wrote:A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).
DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“
They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”
You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.
The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.
Section 121.589(a) of the FAR states that an operator may not allow the boarding of carry-on baggage unless each passenger’s baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program. Additionally, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the operator’s approved program.
skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
flyboy80 wrote:I've heard that the lowest tier tickets at AA and UA do not include carry-on bags, is this the same for Delta? I don't even know what percentage of Delta pax are buying the basic economy experience, and it obviously varies by market, but many flights hub-hub I've been on have dozens of actual revenue customers waiting for seat assignments, which lead me to believe they are probably the lowest tier fares.
cledaybuck wrote:skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
Why would wheeling my bag around the airport cause stress? At least I know where it is. I will keep my $60, thank you very much.
cledaybuck wrote:skipness1E wrote:Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.
It's all in the mindset.
Why would wheeling my bag around the airport cause stress? At least I know where it is. I will keep my $60, thank you very much.
M564038 wrote:There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.
OB1504 wrote:You’re correct that there is no such FAA requirement specifically outlining two carry-on items and their stowage locations, but when an airline submits a carry-on baggage policy to the FAA, FAR 121.589 requires the airline to enforce their own requirements.§121.589 Carry-on baggage.
(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.
So if Delta says 2 items and someone tries to board with 3, then yes, that is against FAA rules.
StrandedAtMKG wrote:I have no sympathy for the airlines here and their asinine baggage policies hurting their on-time stats. They did this to themselves. The price of an airline ticket used to mean your luggage got to come with you, too, (because if you're flying somewhere you're obviously taking clothes, toiletries, etc. with you), but they got greedy and decided to try and squeeze another $25 out of people, and people naturally decided "Screw that. I'm taking everything I own on the plane with me." Flying has changed a lot in the last 20 years, but nothing has been a) completely voluntary on the part of the airlines, and b) more detrimental to the passenger experience than charging a huge fee for baggage.