catiii
Topic Author
Posts: 3172
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:21 pm

A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21
 
M564038
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:28 pm

There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9626
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:33 pm

catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21

On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.

The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5894
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:41 pm

M564038 wrote:
There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.


Try taking that up with the FTC or DOT. Good luck.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5894
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:42 pm

enilria wrote:
The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.


They are Delta or contract employees... working at the airport. Think on that syntax for a minute.
 
YYCguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:55 pm

Pre boarding announcement. "This is an early build Q400 with smaller than usual overhead bins. We will monitor those boarding and we will pull larger carry on bags aside to be checked in for the flight."
They didn't. Then the guy seated next to me gets all growly with the FA when there was no room to stash his two large carry on bags.
Why make the announcement if you dont carry through with what you said? Followed closely by why didn't the guy listen?
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:58 pm

While the explanation is BS, have they sunk as low as United for basic economy regarding rollaboards? Probably not yet.

In other words, be careful what you dicker with them about, they'll just keep doing the same thing, but start charging for it. Then the explanation becomes, "you're a sucker, thanks for the money."
 
bob75013
Posts: 883
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:17 pm

catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“


HUH????????????????????????????

When the weight and balance calculation is off, other airlines simply ask more passenger to move to the rear of the aircraft.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:46 pm

enilria wrote:
On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.


You’re correct that there is no such FAA requirement specifically outlining two carry-on items and their stowage locations, but when an airline submits a carry-on baggage policy to the FAA, FAR 121.589 requires the airline to enforce their own requirements.

§121.589 Carry-on baggage.

(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.


So if Delta says 2 items and someone tries to board with 3, then yes, that is against FAA rules.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7941
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:48 pm

Weight and balance is a possible issue. Maybe not, but maybe. Not completely-implausible. Let's not be a bunch of know-it-alls.
 
bigb
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:57 pm

enilria wrote:
catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21

On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.

The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.


Some airports have ground personnel who covers all the airlines though. Ive been to serval that have a set up like that. It will mostly be found at smaller regional outstations though
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:05 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Weight and balance is a possible issue. Maybe not, but maybe. Not completely-implausible. Let's not be a bunch of know-it-alls.
Didn't they just make the plane heavier on paper by doing that. My understanding was the luggage in the hold is counted (and weighed? or standard weight) and that carry ons are included in a per person weight allowance in the cabin. Obviously, the actual weight is the same.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:10 pm

Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:28 pm

catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21


Before casting a stone, you need to realize that it could have indeed been a weight/balance issue. Bags that are moved to the hold from the cabin (or vice vera) are counted differently on paper. Were they likely telling you a tall tale? Probably. But by the same token, they may not have been. So, get off the high horse and realize it's possible they were not fibbing to you.
Whatever
 
richierich
Posts: 3592
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:43 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.


$25 paid and the slim but very real chance that my bag will not come down the carousel? Never mind that sometimes it can take an eternity for bags to arrive on the belt. No thanks. I pack carry-on whenever I can but sometimes I have to check.

In fact, my most recent flight was on VS arriving at JFK. Bag was nowhere to be found prior to leaving customs, perhaps something to do with the 1.5 hour long line through immigration at T4. All the bags from my flight were consolidated into a small group of maybe 2-3 dozen bags, however my bag was not among them. After searching for 20-30 minutes and walking around several carousels, I exited customs. The DL baggage claim staff who handle VS flights were not particularly helpful. I had to come back to JFK two days later and sort through hundreds of abandoned(?) bags before finding mine - even though my phone number and email address were clearly labeled, I received exactly zero communication from either airline. In the office, I had been told "our system shows the bag is at JFK...there is nothing we can do."
None shall pass!!!!
 
ual763
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:47 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21


Before casting a stone, you need to realize that it could have indeed been a weight/balance issue. Bags that are moved to the hold from the cabin (or vice vera) are counted differently on paper. Were they likely telling you a tall tale? Probably. But by the same token, they may not have been. So, get off the high horse and realize it's possible they were not fibbing to you.


Umm, no it is not moved because of an W/B issue... First of all, the weight doesn’t actually change. Second, if anything, as someone else mentioned, the action of gate checking unnecessary baggage actually increases their weight on paper. This is because the weight of each adult passenger (as determined by the FAA) has a carryon bag already figured into the number. However, when the bags are moved to the cargo hold, then they too, get counted as baggage and not carry-on. The airline does not then go back and subtract ~25lbs or so from the standard passenger weight.

So if anything, they (Delta) have created a weight and balance issue themselves on paper. The weights on paper now, will not match the actual weight of the aircraft.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:50 pm

I have no sympathy for the airlines here and their asinine baggage policies hurting their on-time stats. They did this to themselves. The price of an airline ticket used to mean your luggage got to come with you, too, (because if you're flying somewhere you're obviously taking clothes, toiletries, etc. with you), but they got greedy and decided to try and squeeze another $25 out of people, and people naturally decided "Screw that. I'm taking everything I own on the plane with me." Flying has changed a lot in the last 20 years, but nothing has been a) completely voluntary on the part of the airlines, and b) more detrimental to the passenger experience than charging a huge fee for baggage.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:57 pm

ual763 wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21


Before casting a stone, you need to realize that it could have indeed been a weight/balance issue. Bags that are moved to the hold from the cabin (or vice vera) are counted differently on paper. Were they likely telling you a tall tale? Probably. But by the same token, they may not have been. So, get off the high horse and realize it's possible they were not fibbing to you.


Umm, no it is not moved because of an W/B issue... First of all, the weight doesn’t actually change. Second, if anything, as someone else mentioned, the action of gate checking unnecessary baggage actually increases their weight on paper. This is because the weight of each adult passenger (as determined by the FAA) has a carryon bag already figured into the number. However, when the bags are moved to the cargo hold, then they too, get counted as baggage and not carry-on. The airline does not then go back and subtract ~25lbs or so from the standard passenger weight.

So if anything, they (Delta) have created a weight and balance issue themselves on paper. The weights on paper now, will not match the actual weight of the aircraft.



Read my post carefully. I stated the paper weight changes; I never mentioned the actual weight changes. I also never stated that they go back and subtract weight from the passenger. And sir, it could certainly have been a weight and balance issue. Given the number of passengers and bags checked, they may have needed more weight in either the forward or rear cargo hold. Was this the reason? Probably not, but it's not inconceivable.
Whatever
 
alasizon
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:58 pm

The statement of the the cabin being too heavy for W&B makes no sense. However, it's not uncommon to see some routes require additional bags to be checked to help with adding more weight down below to fix the CG. Full load of pax plus light number of bags either requires ballast or additional bags on certain routes.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:04 pm

alasizon wrote:
The statement of the the cabin being too heavy for W&B makes no sense. However, it's not uncommon to see some routes require additional bags to be checked to help with adding more weight down below to fix the CG. Full load of pax plus light number of bags either requires ballast or additional bags on certain routes.


Exactly this. Unfortunately, ual763 isn't fully informed and doesn't understand that is a possibility.
Whatever
 
kameleonten
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:58 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:11 pm

richierich wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.


$25 paid and the slim but very real chance that my bag will not come down the carousel? Never mind that sometimes it can take an eternity for bags to arrive on the belt. No thanks. I pack carry-on whenever I can but sometimes I have to check.


I second this. I live on the east coast and frequently travel to Asia. Being a consultant, I pay my own tickets and as fares are so much lower from the west coast I buy two separate tickets without exception (one domestic, one long haul). Flying on business for a week each time, I can fit what I need in a carry on without a problem. I would never check a bag - if my first flight is delayed I have the option of missing my second one and buying a new expensive ticket or missing my bag and arriving without any clothes or toiletries, having to buy those instead (and a new bag, for the return). No brainer, really.
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:15 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.


I agree that more people should check their bags, but airlines contribute to the problem by charging baggage fees - probably because there is a permanent market for it because TSA forces pax to check bags due to carry-on restrictions. The baggage check fee was an add-on that should have died already but hasn't. AS gives me a pass because I have their cc, and I've found that I can get a pass on other airlines with a smile and some kind compliments to the check-in agent.

I was boarding an E175 just recently and there were some pax with large hard cases that would never have a chance of fitting in the E175's overheads - yet there they were at the gate, ready to give it a go... The gate agent managed to intercept them and gate check them, thank goodness.
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2022
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:21 pm

I see this type of thing from Delta often. I've heard many cringe worthy announcements from Delta airport agents, especially in Atlanta. Delta does have a high percentage of non-benefitted part time airport workers and their lack of professional expertise is probably what causes some of this. You get what you pay for. Still no excuse for the announcement and that it probably doesn't involve any company policy and is lying to customers. I find Delta to be the worst at enforcing carry-on policies in general. UA and AA are typically quite good at monitoring bags where I've seen Delta agents on numerous occasions let passengers get on with oversize and over amount of items...which actually is a FAA violation.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3618
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:28 pm

M564038 wrote:
There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.


I'm still on the floor LMAO at this comment. Criminal charges??
 
Seat99A
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:58 pm

I have sufficient status on Delta that I don't encounter this on DL. But AA (no status) and LH (lowly SA Silver) love to snatch my IATA-compliant 18" roll aboard at he gate when in boarding group 2, 3 etc.. I'd check my bag if I had confidence that it wouldn't end up in Bangladesh instead of Amsterdam, or if it wouldn't take 45 minutes from arriving at the gate to emerging on the belt. I've thought about going to an even smaller roll aboard, but I just re calibrated on how to do a 2-week international trip with an 18" ( from a 20") a few years ago. That seemed to do the trick until about 2 years ago, and now the 18" bags are at risk. Are standards changing to yet smaller bags?
 
bigb
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:58 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
alasizon wrote:
The statement of the the cabin being too heavy for W&B makes no sense. However, it's not uncommon to see some routes require additional bags to be checked to help with adding more weight down below to fix the CG. Full load of pax plus light number of bags either requires ballast or additional bags on certain routes.


Exactly this. Unfortunately, ual763 isn't fully informed and doesn't understand that is a possibility.


He isn’t fully incorrect though. The FAA does define standard winter and summer passenger weights that does take into account small carry-one. When a carry-on is gated check. Depending how it it was taged, it will counted on a cargo load report either as a checked bag or carry-on. FAA also has standard weights for Heavy, Standard, Carry-on checked bags.

In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.
 
Boston757
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:01 pm

I do know that when a passenger continues on to the aircraft with a gate checked bag on the bag and the flight Attendant pulls the tag they can subtract that approx weight and allow for more weight in the belly.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:09 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.



And then the airline loses the bag or the conveyor breaks down and it takes an hour before the bag shows up... lose the worry you say...
 
alasizon
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:10 pm

bigb wrote:
In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.


Additional bags are an alternative to using the ballast.

CRJ-200 with a jumpseater will nearly always require ballast and a full load of 50 pax will require at least 1,000 lbs or so in the back of weight and if you are short on bags ballast has to make up that weight.

A lot of WN's flights into SNA requires about 30-40 bags to be checked when baggage volume is light to fix the CG. Now not many of the flights are light when it comes to bags overall due to the number of families traveling for vacation but it happens when the flight is business heavy.

Also there are times where the excess fuel that would normally be carried on the route is being used as ballast fuel but for whatever reason the fuel load has to be reduced. In that case you need additional weight to make up for it.

Boston757 wrote:
I do know that when a passenger continues on to the aircraft with a gate checked bag on the bag and the flight Attendant pulls the tag they can subtract that approx weight and allow for more weight in the belly.

The overhead bag is counted in the W&B whether it is there or not and for cargo bin purposes, only loaded bags are counted in the W&B. If the bag isn't loaded into the bin, it isn't factored into the W&B because as far as W&B is concerned, the bag doesn't exist down below.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:16 pm

ssteve wrote:
While the explanation is BS, have they sunk as low as United for basic economy regarding rollaboards? Probably not yet.

In other words, be careful what you dicker with them about, they'll just keep doing the same thing, but start charging for it. Then the explanation becomes, "you're a sucker, thanks for the money."

If you don’t like the fare restrictions, buy a different fare.
 
bigb
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:21 pm

alasizon wrote:
bigb wrote:
In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.


Additional bags are an alternative to using the ballast.

CRJ-200 with a jumpseater will nearly always require ballast and a full load of 50 pax will require at least 1,000 lbs or so in the back of weight and if you are short on bags ballast has to make up that weight.

A lot of WN's flights into SNA requires about 30-40 bags to be checked when baggage volume is light to fix the CG. Now not many of the flights are light when it comes to bags overall due to the number of families traveling for vacation but it happens when the flight is business heavy.

Also there are times where the excess fuel that would normally be carried on the route is being used as ballast fuel but for whatever reason the fuel load has to be reduced. In that case you need additional weight to make up for it.

Boston757 wrote:
I do know that when a passenger continues on to the aircraft with a gate checked bag on the bag and the flight Attendant pulls the tag they can subtract that approx weight and allow for more weight in the belly.

The overhead bag is counted in the W&B whether it is there or not and for cargo bin purposes, only loaded bags are counted in the W&B. If the bag isn't loaded into the bin, it isn't factored into the W&B because as far as W&B is concerned, the bag doesn't exist down below.


Of course, but damn, what numbers where you using to need a 1000 pounds of ballast on a CRJ-200. I have yet to need that much ballast. The most I’ve needed was 500 lbs and that was it a jumpseater. I am know additional bags can used as ballast, but then again, I’ve stated I haven’t see the need to use bags as ballast yet.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:23 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.

And then the airline loses the bag or the conveyor breaks down and it takes an hour before the bag shows up... lose the worry you say...


Part of the way funds are allocated towards fixing belt systems is based on number of bags that pass through that system. Less checked bags equal less funding in some cases, even though the wear and tear on the belt system still occurs.

jumbojet wrote:
whats so laughable is that how everyone on Anet gets super excited when Delta suffers a minor gaffe. You would think they dragged someone off a plane or something.

If by everyone, you mean the maybe 20 of us who have posted in the thread so far with maybe half of us discussing the technical aspects, yeah we are definitely super excited... :roll:
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:35 pm

Airline representatives aren't knowledgeable as you think. They give wrong guidance all the time. For example, I was flying from AUS on AS with a layover at SFO for 6 hours, transferring to CA to PEK, and the phone representative insisted that it was TSA policy that I had to claim my bag and recheck. But on the day of the trip, my bag went all the way to China without a problem.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:44 pm

bigb wrote:
alasizon wrote:
bigb wrote:
In terms of use of ballast, I haven’t encountered a situation where a flight needed passengers to check carry-one to fix a CG issue. I’ve had and seen cases where we needed to add ballast or move passengers to fix a CG issue. I’ve also had cases where bags were removed or passengers in order to take within the MFPTW.


Additional bags are an alternative to using the ballast.

CRJ-200 with a jumpseater will nearly always require ballast and a full load of 50 pax will require at least 1,000 lbs or so in the back of weight and if you are short on bags ballast has to make up that weight.

A lot of WN's flights into SNA requires about 30-40 bags to be checked when baggage volume is light to fix the CG. Now not many of the flights are light when it comes to bags overall due to the number of families traveling for vacation but it happens when the flight is business heavy.

Also there are times where the excess fuel that would normally be carried on the route is being used as ballast fuel but for whatever reason the fuel load has to be reduced. In that case you need additional weight to make up for it.


Of course, but damn, what numbers where you using to need a 1000 pounds of ballast on a CRJ-200. I have yet to need that much ballast. The most I’ve needed was 500 lbs and that was it a jumpseater. I am know additional bags can used as ballast, but then again, I’ve stated I haven’t see the need to use bags as ballast yet.


Depends on carrier policy, some carriers used to have a limit of 500 lbs of ballast which then when you needed more, became a case of go get some extra bags from inside. Max I've ever had on a true CR2 was 875 & 900 pounds (889AS) but we later found out that it's computer was a little over compensating and it didn't actually need that much but 575-625 was common. Mesa's 407SW used to require up to 2,500 lbs of ballast before they upgraded the engines to the -3Bs.

Now back to the original DL side of the equation, does DL use any sort of algorithm to determine how many bags should be checked up front on widebodies? The original picture shows a widebody and I can't remember a time I've ever see a widebody run out of overhead bin space (particularly a 767).
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
WN732
Posts: 592
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:48 pm

richierich wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.


$25 paid and the slim but very real chance that my bag will not come down the carousel? Never mind that sometimes it can take an eternity for bags to arrive on the belt. No thanks. I pack carry-on whenever I can but sometimes I have to check.

In fact, my most recent flight was on VS arriving at JFK. Bag was nowhere to be found prior to leaving customs, perhaps something to do with the 1.5 hour long line through immigration at T4. All the bags from my flight were consolidated into a small group of maybe 2-3 dozen bags, however my bag was not among them. After searching for 20-30 minutes and walking around several carousels, I exited customs. The DL baggage claim staff who handle VS flights were not particularly helpful. I had to come back to JFK two days later and sort through hundreds of abandoned(?) bags before finding mine - even though my phone number and email address were clearly labeled, I received exactly zero communication from either airline. In the office, I had been told "our system shows the bag is at JFK...there is nothing we can do."


My last DL flight asked for volunteers and they did not charge for the luggage to be gate checked. We were boarding a completely full MD80.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:57 pm

enilria wrote:
... Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.


Yeah, you're taking that WAY too seriously. When crew members fly into airports they're not thinking about the specifics as to who is employed by what entity -- to crews the ground personnel are simply the personnel who work in that particular airport. It's not an attempt to deflect or deny responsibility.

Also ramp delays could very well be the case that, during irregular ops, there are more than typical amount of aircraft to be serviced and that could take personnel from other flights.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:58 pm

enilria wrote:
catiii wrote:
A passenger tweeted at Delta that they were forcing CUs to check carryon bags, even though there was ample open overhead space (according to the pics provided).

DL’s response: “This usually occurs to support the weight and balance of the aircraft. If the weight of the aircraft in the cabin is too heavy, passengers will be asked to check their bags during boarding.“

They should have just copped to saying “we want to make sure you have an on time departure and so we have a policy of checking bags at a certain point in the boarding process to make sure you do so.”

You can read the whole laughable thread here: https://twitter.com/delta/status/117396 ... 86016?s=21

On a recent flight the agent said “passengers are allowed one carry on in the overhead bin and one smaller item that fits beneath your seat. This is not a Delta rule, but is required by the FAA.” Show me where it says in the FARs that two bags only and their placement of one in an overhead bin and one under your seat is “required”.

The pilots also frequently say “we can’t pull into our gate because the airport employees haven’t staffed the gate”. Those employees are Delta employees or subcontractors paid by Delta and the pilot knows they aren’t employees of the airport.


The FARs pretty much mandate the airlines follow the policy that the airline established:

Section 121.589(a) of the FAR states that an operator may not allow the boarding of carry-on baggage unless each passenger’s baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program. Additionally, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the operator’s approved program.


https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/c ... cob211.pdf

The FAA approves the ops spec for the airline, therefore the FAA mandates that airlines follow their own policy, so yes adherence to the policy of one item in the overhead bin and the other under the seat essentially is FAA mandated
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2022
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:16 pm

One thing I did notice is that Delta does not have the gate sizers in any of their gate areas. Apparently they don't use them. Boarding a domestic flight a woman came on board in front of me with a huge bag and the attendant politely stoped her to inform the bag is too large to fit and needs to be checked, of course the woman started saying how she "always" flies with this specific bag and that she flew in on another flight and it fit fine. Sure enough the bag didn't fit and the result was a line in the middle of the aircraft for several moments while this woman placed her nasty bag on a vacant seat. The flight closed the door close to on-time, but still the fact that one customer not following simple rules and direction from the employees can throw off boarding completely and inconvenience the whole plane, and for that customer to not even be a "premium" customer, flying on what I assume was a basic-economy ticket, shows some work to do in terms of efficiency on the airlines part. People will continue to break the rules as long as the airlines allow it.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6646
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:18 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.


Yeah, no. This past winter I checked a bag on DL. For some reason they "expedited" the bag on UA, on a flight scheduled to arrive an hour later than mine, in a different terminal to boot. And I had to go to the office after arriving, so sticking around the airport wasn't an option. My bag was ultimately delivered a day-and-a-half later at two in the morning. Do you think I experienced less stress and angst by checking my bag?
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:19 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.

Why would wheeling my bag around the airport cause stress? At least I know where it is. I will keep my $60, thank you very much.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2022
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:23 pm

I've heard that the lowest tier tickets at AA and UA do not include carry-on bags, is this the same for Delta? I don't even know what percentage of Delta pax are buying the basic economy experience, and it obviously varies by market, but many flights hub-hub I've been on have dozens of actual revenue customers waiting for seat assignments, which lead me to believe they are probably the lowest tier fares.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:29 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
I've heard that the lowest tier tickets at AA and UA do not include carry-on bags, is this the same for Delta? I don't even know what percentage of Delta pax are buying the basic economy experience, and it obviously varies by market, but many flights hub-hub I've been on have dozens of actual revenue customers waiting for seat assignments, which lead me to believe they are probably the lowest tier fares.


Only UA places those restrictions on the basic economy tickets. DL and AA allow carry-on bags.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18163
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:34 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.

Why would wheeling my bag around the airport cause stress? At least I know where it is. I will keep my $60, thank you very much.

There is the problem.

Online search engines go for lowest fare.
Added bag fees to get a lower online fare as the US3 were compared to ULCCs.
Passengers are rational, so they take bags.

Getting off a plane and waiting 45 to 90 minutes for a bag at LAX is super stressful. By all means taking the bag is far less stress.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3452
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:48 pm

That is a laughable explanation. In my experience DL is in contention for the worst with forcing people to check bags long before the bins will be full. I'm a little surprised the airlines haven't gotten in trouble with this practice of checking bags for departure time purposes. They boldly advertise that the fare you bought includes a carry-on bag and personal item, but in reality a third of the plane won't be allowed to. It's deceptive at best.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:16 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Check the bag. Really, just check the bag. The few $ you save on carrying it on is balalnced out by the stupid levels of stress, and angst that comes later. Imagine paying $25 to lose that worry.

It's all in the mindset.

Why would wheeling my bag around the airport cause stress? At least I know where it is. I will keep my $60, thank you very much.


IKR. I have always operated on the policy of there are only two types of baggage: Lost and carry on...
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:29 pm

Regarding W&B different airlines apply different rules to this. Some that I work with take bags from the cabin into the hold and add weight and a trim difference to the aircraft on paper, others just amend the trim (the logical option) and some do literally nothing.

I regularly dispatch flights that require ballast, but are fully booked and due to weight restrictions cannot add extra ballast. We use cabin bags- simple procedure.

Airlines are victims of their own greed, but it's been brought on by the advent of low cost travel, amongst other things. Personally i never take a hard case into the cabin. I put my tiny backpack at my feet, and sit back to watch all the others fighting to get their massive cases into the lockers ;-) Different airlines have different policies, especially with regards to sizes of carry on bags, but some parts of the world, particularly in the States need to address this issue. The sizes of some so-called carry ons are ridiculous!
 
User avatar
millionsofmiles
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:18 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:41 pm

M564038 wrote:
There should be severe criminal charges filed against airlines trying to hide bad customer treatment behind invented and wrongful safety, security or technical reasons.
It completely undermines the trust and seriouness behind true air safety issues.



“Severe criminal charges” because some clueless Customer Relations rep gave a BS response to a valid question?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
User avatar
millionsofmiles
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:18 am

Re: DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:52 pm

AA’s agents have become very good at counting bags and determining at what point bags need to be checked.

This eliminates the “salmon swimming upstream bag drag” all the way up the Coach aisle against traffic when all be bins are full. It makes for a much more pleasant boarding process, and no more of the last minute frenzy trying to redo the Rubik’s cube of bags to try to make space at the end.

Kudos to AA.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15420
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:57 pm

OB1504 wrote:
You’re correct that there is no such FAA requirement specifically outlining two carry-on items and their stowage locations, but when an airline submits a carry-on baggage policy to the FAA, FAR 121.589 requires the airline to enforce their own requirements.

§121.589 Carry-on baggage.

(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.


So if Delta says 2 items and someone tries to board with 3, then yes, that is against FAA rules.


Absolutely, 100% correct. And if a DOT inspector were auditing DL and found they were not in compliance, they would be fined.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1307
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

Re: Laughable DL explanation on checking carry on bags

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:59 pm

I'm a bit perplexed, based on reading the thread- with examples of ballast loads, I was expecting to see a CRJ, perhaps at an airport which might be at the edge of the performance envelope of the aircraft. When I clicked the link, I see a widebody (looks like a 767) at JFK. Obviously all aircraft have CG considerations- but this does seem to be a bit suspect and I see why people are questioning the response from DL.

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
I have no sympathy for the airlines here and their asinine baggage policies hurting their on-time stats. They did this to themselves. The price of an airline ticket used to mean your luggage got to come with you, too, (because if you're flying somewhere you're obviously taking clothes, toiletries, etc. with you), but they got greedy and decided to try and squeeze another $25 out of people, and people naturally decided "Screw that. I'm taking everything I own on the plane with me." Flying has changed a lot in the last 20 years, but nothing has been a) completely voluntary on the part of the airlines, and b) more detrimental to the passenger experience than charging a huge fee for baggage.


I tend to agree. AA reported collecting a record $350M in baggage fees last spring. That's $100M a month! It's really not surprising to me that customers are not willing to fork over more money willingly to check their bags.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos