Ishrion
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Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:46 pm

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/18/ ... ardingArea

- Second year of losses.
- 10 times the loss of the prior year.

Not good for Qatar...

Last month, Air Italy (Qatar has a 49% stake in the airline) posted a loss of 164 million Euros (188$ million USD).
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:58 pm

The embargo isn't helping, but doesn't explain the magnitude of the loss.

EK is barely profitable (basically break even) and far better run.

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LAXintl
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:02 pm

Certainly does not help with the ongoing blockade.

If you look at their figures, a large portion of losses are driven by fuel costs and foreign exchange fluctuations. Their net loss margin was 4.8%, not too drastic.

Though good things are happening also - like the open skies agreement with Europe, along with positive trends in both passenger and cargo traffic in the face adversity.
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xwb777
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:46 pm

A profit margin of -4.3. Is it that bad?
 
anshabhi
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:25 pm

I really think Iran firing missiles randomly - the only country QR flies over in gulf doesn't make their pax feel any safer.
 
SPLover
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:35 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I really think Iran firing missiles randomly - the only country QR flies over in gulf doesn't make their pax feel any safer.


It has nothing to do with pax feeling unsafe by flying over Iran. Plenty of other airlines fly over Iran, including EK and THY. It boils down to business model.
 
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enilria
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The embargo isn't helping, but doesn't explain the magnitude of the loss.

EK is barely profitable (basically break even) and far better run.

Lightsaber

I disagree. While QR’s financials are a matter of debate, I do believe the air blockade could easily cause that level of loss. Apart from the deviations, they were flying DOH-DXB almost hourly sometimes with huge airplanes. Given DOH’s tiny local market that was a massive traffic generator for their network. Losing that is a dramatic effect. $600m is only about 1100 $1500 round trip tickets per day lost. They were carrying much more than that between DOH and DXB and it was almost all connecting long haul, so if you add in the fuel deviations it could easily cost that much.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:55 pm

I have to admit I am befuddled by QR’s investment strategy. It seems to buy holdings in all its oneworld teammates, some successfully (IAG, LATAM, CX) - presumably with the intention of bring the alliance members closer together. But why? What purpose would that serve, in terms of shareholder value for QR? It then makes some dud investments (Air Italy) but thankfully, not on the same scale as Etihad.

It then threatens to quit the alliance over QF’s arrangement with EK. (Side note: if the QF/EK arrangement offends them so much, I have always wondered why QR never bought into QF - say, 10% - and obtained a seat on the board, and influenced QF that way. If the bilaterals between Australia and Qatar could be worked out, QR could offer QF a similar reach to EK.)

But as a strategy... it leaves me scratching my head.
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SeanM1997
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:44 pm

If Emirates say the UK accounts for 25% of their profits, maybe Qatar should look to grow further - increasing frequencies at Manchester and Birmingham, whilst launching new destinations such as London Stansted, Belfast, Newcastle and Liverpool
 
randomdude83
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:55 pm

As was mentioned in this thread, most likely due to the rerouting, the extra fuel and the ME/Qatar dispute is causing the heavy losses. QR can blame it on that for sure.

I’m kinda wondering though since that situation hasn’t improved, would reducing the aircraft type and basically going full 787/350for wide body and take out the 777/380/330 would help for starters. Clearly the current way is costing a lot for the longer flights and the blockad because of the Qatar situation.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:54 pm

SeanM1997 wrote:
If Emirates say the UK accounts for 25% of their profits, maybe Qatar should look to grow further - increasing frequencies at Manchester and Birmingham, whilst launching new destinations such as London Stansted, Belfast, Newcastle and Liverpool


Qatar will not begin operating in Liverpool. It will dilute their MAN traffic and make the problem worse.
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cathay747
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:54 pm

Ishrion wrote:
https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/18/qatar-airways-announces-record-632-million-loss/?utm_source=BoardingArea&utm_medium=BoardingArea

- Second year of losses.
- 10 times the loss of the prior year.

Not good for Qatar...

Last month, Air Italy (Qatar has a 49% stake in the airline) posted a loss of 164 million Euros (188$ million USD).


This is some serious bloodletting. Al Baker must be really stewing over this.
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lightsaber
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:12 am

The ME3 are struggling. EK the airline basically broke even (small profit).of $237 million or 0.237 billion on $26.9 bn revenue. (0.9% profit, I call +/- 1% break even).
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422171

Yes, EK group did better...

EY lost $1.28 billion (less loss than prior year), but really bad as they are tiny vs. QR which is small vs. EK. I couldn't find revenue. It was $9.3 bn per Wikipedia, but if anyone has a better source... Still about -14%, obviously not sustainable.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417909&p=21666569#p21666569

QR lost $632 million or 0.632 billion on $13.2 bn revenue or -4.7%. Bad, but not EY bad

I take the difference in yield vs. EK as Embargo impact. So two thirds of the loss can be blamed on the embargo. Without it, I still estimate a loss.

Hub bypass is hitting high gear with the NEO, 787, and A350.

Challenging times, in particular with the new IST.

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klm617
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:26 am

lightsaber wrote:
The ME3 are struggling. EK the airline basically broke even (small profit).of $237 million or 0.237 billion on $26.9 bn revenue. (0.9% profit, I call +/- 1% break even).
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422171

Yes, EK group did better...

EY lost $1.28 billion (less loss than prior year), but really bad as they are tiny vs. QR which is small vs. EK. I couldn't find revenue. It was $9.3 bn per Wikipedia, but if anyone has a better source... Still about -14%, obviously not sustainable.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417909&p=21666569#p21666569

QR lost $632 million or 0.632 billion on $13.2 bn revenue or -4.7%. Bad, but not EY bad

I take the difference in yield vs. EK as Embargo impact. So two thirds of the loss can be blamed on the embargo. Without it, I still estimate a loss.

Hub bypass is hitting high gear with the NEO, 787, and A350.

Challenging times, in particular with the new IST.

Lightsaber



Yes but the issue is as I have said before everyone piling on on the same routes where they have to basically give seats away because of lack of pricing power. The need to go into places where there is no hub bypassing possibility and where they have the ability to price at a higher rate because of zero competition. I'd be curious to know what their margins are on say JFK, BOS, IAH, DFW and ORD compared to places like PHL and ATL where they are the only game in town. I'd say bad publicity has hurt them as well so where they compete with EK or EY I bet they have they lowest margins as they are probably 3rd choice and have to take whatever is left over
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skipness1E
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:38 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
If Emirates say the UK accounts for 25% of their profits, maybe Qatar should look to grow further - increasing frequencies at Manchester and Birmingham, whilst launching new destinations such as London Stansted, Belfast, Newcastle and Liverpool

Look at how CWL is doing. That’s all you need to know about the performance in tertiary markets. Don’t see BFS, LPL etc doing better. EK at NCL plateaued and matured at once daily.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:08 am

lightsaber wrote:

Hub bypass is hitting high gear with the NEO, 787, and A350.

Challenging times, in particular with the new IST.

Lightsaber


Seriously, it's boring you peddle continual the IST airport. It has major problems.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... w-airport/

Also, THY-Turkish is struggling finances too:

https://www.intellinews.com/turkish-air ... ts-167389/

Airlines are bypassing IST. Turkey is a terror-hotspot. One event, game over.

Same with Doha. It lost the Saudi and UAE markets and losing the money in big way. Doha and IST both over-hyped and are bypassed hubs. Qataria will lose even more money.
 
smi0006
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:21 am

Don’t also forget the Al Maha disaster - where the failed launch QR was forced last year to absorb their fleet - not the ideal time for the capacity to flow through
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:22 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
If Emirates say the UK accounts for 25% of their profits, maybe Qatar should look to grow further - increasing frequencies at Manchester and Birmingham, whilst launching new destinations such as London Stansted, Belfast, Newcastle and Liverpool


Although it would be nice, I can't see LPL getting a look-in given its proximity to MAN and any expansion from the north west would almost certainly come from increased frequencies/capacity from MAN first. I also hazard a guess that upgrades to the terminal such as a better lounge or airbridges would be demanded as the airport is geared up more towards LCC's. From a passenger's perspective and as someone who is local to both airports, LPL beats MAN in certain areas as far as the passenger experience is concerned.

One for the pilots, but is the runway at LPL long enough to accommodate a fully loaded 787 with enough fuel to go to DOH? It has handled 757's going to NE USA before when Flyglobespan had their short-lived JFK route and the apron is capable of handling widebodies (see various Liverpool FC fan charters whenever they've reached the Champions League Final over the last 15 years).

BFS is probably more viable, but then there's the question whether Northern Ireland (and by extension the island of Ireland) is able to sustain a BFS-Middle East flight in addition to what's already available at DUB.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:07 am

I doubt there will be any major changes for QR in a short time. Two reasons. First, they wait Etihad to shrink or collapse and what EK will do. They also hope the embargo will also stop. Secondly, Qatar host two major sporting events in the near future, track & field world championships and in 2022 World cup. Qatar wants to show they are strong and their pride won't give up to show any weakness until 2023 when they are not anymore in the spotlight. If that costs $2b they can afford it. In 2023 only aviation geeks would see if QR makes some major adjustments.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:08 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
If Emirates say the UK accounts for 25% of their profits, maybe Qatar should look to grow further - increasing frequencies at Manchester and Birmingham, whilst launching new destinations such as London Stansted, Belfast, Newcastle and Liverpool


They only send 1 788 to BHX every day, I fear there just isn't the demand. If they can't justify a 789 or A350 in a market EK can send 2 615-seat A380s a day, and report high load factors (I believe they quoted 85%+ in a recent interview), then that signals bigger issues imo.
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chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:15 am

I notice QR recently opened a giant new office in Amman. I start to wonder if QR's next move is Royal Jordanian. Maybe QR will buy into RJ and move some aircraft into RJ fleet in order to build a second hub to bypass the blockade. If so, maybe there would be relief in the horizon. For Jordan, any new employment opportunity is good for the country. And for QR, any possibility of bypass blockade is a giant relief.

As for QR's strategy, I think the random routes using A320 into Europe is costing them. Secondary market is good if you have the first mover advantage, and if there are enough paying customers to provide a steady revenue stream.

Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status), as a matter of principle I don't fly Qatar as they insist on their exceptions. I normally fly Premier Economy of Business. Unfortunately QR does not offer Premier Economy and their lounge policy sucks. I fly economy class in my youth and I value airlines gives me lounge access due to status and did not discriminate against me when I was a poor student and at the start of my carrier.
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:21 am

Whatn hasn't been mentioned by anyone here is that their revenues INCREASED from last year. Need to get their coats under control.

Second thing is that one need to realise that QR is a part of the larger Qatari government investments. If QR is paying higher costs in fuel in Qatar guess whose selling them that Fuel? Yes their own government owned fuel company, who then records a profit.

All that matters therefore in the grand scheme of things with the ME3 is always the following:
IS THERE MORE MONEY ENTERING THE NATION THAN LEAVING? I.e. what is the status of the government's current account. So long as it's growing or at least not shrinking past 0 the losses of individual companies can always be covered.
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lalib
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:18 am

With regard to equity investments that QR has recently made, instead of going for the premier or OW members why not invest in the airlines that could actually benefit from a cash injection and QR's management expertise. A number of airlines come to mind, PIA, Iran Air, Sri Lankan and Bangladesh airlines. For example, PK has a fleet of 40 aircraft and a population of well over 200 Million. Focus on the domestic routes by bringing in fuel efficient a/c and improving schedule integrity. This will drive the one or two domestic operators out. At least one of those airlines are owned by a Politician.

On a Govt level Qatar and the mentioned countries are close and culturally they can get along. It will be more rewarding.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:09 am

lalib wrote:
With regard to equity investments that QR has recently made, instead of going for the premier or OW members why not invest in the airlines that could actually benefit from a cash injection and QR's management expertise. A number of airlines come to mind, PIA, Iran Air, Sri Lankan and Bangladesh airlines. For example, PK has a fleet of 40 aircraft and a population of well over 200 Million. Focus on the domestic routes by bringing in fuel efficient a/c and improving schedule integrity. This will drive the one or two domestic operators out. At least one of those airlines are owned by a Politician.

On a Govt level Qatar and the mentioned countries are close and culturally they can get along. It will be more rewarding.


All the airlines you mentioned is strife with mismanagement and extreme-nationalism characteristics. Tribal mentality is bad for business, yet all the airline you mentioned is very tribal. Even Qatar Airways realise it is better to invest in airlines that operates in liberal market conditions. That tells you why Qatar will not invest in the airlines you mentioned.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:10 am

lalib wrote:
With regard to equity investments that QR has recently made, instead of going for the premier or OW members why not invest in the airlines that could actually benefit from a cash injection and QR's management expertise. A number of airlines come to mind, PIA, Iran Air, Sri Lankan and Bangladesh airlines.


And that was the exact strategy that hurt Etihad so badly over the past number of years. QR are smart in investing in airlines that actually make money, which in turn will make them money. It's much sounder business sense than the alternative.
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AEROFAN
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:26 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I really think Iran firing missiles randomly - the only country QR flies over in gulf doesn't make their pax feel any safer.


Eh, say what now? I'm due to fly to Doha from Madrid at the end of the month... Tell me you kidding....
 
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:30 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I notice QR recently opened a giant new office in Amman. I start to wonder if QR's next move is Royal Jordanian. Maybe QR will buy into RJ and move some aircraft into RJ fleet in order to build a second hub to bypass the blockade. If so, maybe there would be relief in the horizon. For Jordan, any new employment opportunity is good for the country. And for QR, any possibility of bypass blockade is a giant relief.

As for QR's strategy, I think the random routes using A320 into Europe is costing them. Secondary market is good if you have the first mover advantage, and if there are enough paying customers to provide a steady revenue stream.

Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status), as a matter of principle I don't fly Qatar as they insist on their exceptions. I normally fly Premier Economy of Business. Unfortunately QR does not offer Premier Economy and their lounge policy sucks. I fly economy class in my youth and I value airlines gives me lounge access due to status and did not discriminate against me when I was a poor student and at the start of my carrier.


I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:46 pm

Credit to QR for taking an unassailable lead in A350 deliveries. QR has become THE A350 airline. The better the aircraft and product, the better the reputation. And the more ground you cover (in particular Vietnam and the Philippines, e.g., DAD, DVO and LGK), the wider you can reach. I commend QR for that. You can build a wonderful airline without first class.

In contrast, EK is lazy to launch destinations. EK will never fly to KTM: not because all the Nepali labourers are building the World Cup stadiums (and therefore cannot be bothered to go to Dubai), not because FZ flies to Kathmandu and hence EK won’t, but because EK is unwilling to serve emerging cities, especially in Asia.

Not to throw shade at EK—it is the best-run Middle Eastern airline without a scintilla of doubt—but its brand image has never struck me as impressively as QR’s does. QR is trying the very best it can to expand its network despite the blockade, with LIS being a good example, and it has gone ahead with launching service to emerging African and Eurasian markets such as RBA, MLA and even MGQ. To see it go head-to-head against TK and IST in this way (and TK doesn’t even fly to Oceania, for all its strengths) is truly commendable.
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IndianicWorld
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:06 pm

VTCIE wrote:
Credit to QR for taking an unassailable lead in A350 deliveries. QR has become THE A350 airline. The better the aircraft and product, the better the reputation. And the more ground you cover (in particular Vietnam and the Philippines, e.g., DAD, DVO and LGK), the wider you can reach. I commend QR for that. You can build a wonderful airline without first class.

In contrast, EK is lazy to launch destinations. EK will never fly to KTM: not because all the Nepali labourers are building the World Cup stadiums (and therefore cannot be bothered to go to Dubai), not because FZ flies to Kathmandu and hence EK won’t, but because EK is unwilling to serve emerging cities, especially in Asia.

Not to throw shade at EK—it is the best-run Middle Eastern airline without a scintilla of doubt—but its brand image has never struck me as impressively as QR’s does. QR is trying the very best it can to expand its network despite the blockade, with LIS being a good example, and it has gone ahead with launching service to emerging African and Eurasian markets such as RBA, MLA and even MGQ. To see it go head-to-head against TK and IST in this way (and TK doesn’t even fly to Oceania, for all its strengths) is truly commendable.


Yet EK makes money and QR doesn’t, so all these routes that EK is too ‘lazy’ to launch isn’t bringing QR much in return.

EK’s days of crazy growth are gone, as DXB is near its maximum operational limits and the airline has matured to a point that it is becoming more conservative in its approach.

Even though they are losing money, QR will likely keep pushing ahead with expansion to drive an agenda, but if it is structurally not a solid platform to build from, it really should be reconsidering it’s strategy.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I notice QR recently opened a giant new office in Amman. I start to wonder if QR's next move is Royal Jordanian. Maybe QR will buy into RJ and move some aircraft into RJ fleet in order to build a second hub to bypass the blockade. If so, maybe there would be relief in the horizon. For Jordan, any new employment opportunity is good for the country. And for QR, any possibility of bypass blockade is a giant relief.

As for QR's strategy, I think the random routes using A320 into Europe is costing them. Secondary market is good if you have the first mover advantage, and if there are enough paying customers to provide a steady revenue stream.

Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status), as a matter of principle I don't fly Qatar as they insist on their exceptions. I normally fly Premier Economy of Business. Unfortunately QR does not offer Premier Economy and their lounge policy sucks. I fly economy class in my youth and I value airlines gives me lounge access due to status and did not discriminate against me when I was a poor student and at the start of my carrier.


I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit.


Yes that is what I did. Fly business, but on other airlines like Emirates, Cathays Pacific and AA. You completely missed the point, many people start flying on coach. I don't agree with Qatars operation in this regards, so I fly other airlines. Thank goodness we have a choice in air travel. What I don't like about the whole arrangement is about they force Oneworld to have exemptions.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:29 pm

chonetsao wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I notice QR recently opened a giant new office in Amman. I start to wonder if QR's next move is Royal Jordanian. Maybe QR will buy into RJ and move some aircraft into RJ fleet in order to build a second hub to bypass the blockade. If so, maybe there would be relief in the horizon. For Jordan, any new employment opportunity is good for the country. And for QR, any possibility of bypass blockade is a giant relief.

As for QR's strategy, I think the random routes using A320 into Europe is costing them. Secondary market is good if you have the first mover advantage, and if there are enough paying customers to provide a steady revenue stream.

Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status), as a matter of principle I don't fly Qatar as they insist on their exceptions. I normally fly Premier Economy of Business. Unfortunately QR does not offer Premier Economy and their lounge policy sucks. I fly economy class in my youth and I value airlines gives me lounge access due to status and did not discriminate against me when I was a poor student and at the start of my carrier.


I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit.


Yes that is what I did. Fly business, but on other airlines like Emirates, Cathays Pacific and AA. You completely missed the point, many people start flying on coach. I don't agree with Qatars operation in this regards, so I fly other airlines. Thank goodness we have a choice in air travel. What I don't like about the whole arrangement is about they force Oneworld to have exemptions.


Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:21 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
Credit to QR for taking an unassailable lead in A350 deliveries. QR has become THE A350 airline. The better the aircraft and product, the better the reputation. And the more ground you cover (in particular Vietnam and the Philippines, e.g., DAD, DVO and LGK), the wider you can reach. I commend QR for that. You can build a wonderful airline without first class.

In contrast, EK is lazy to launch destinations. EK will never fly to KTM: not because all the Nepali labourers are building the World Cup stadiums (and therefore cannot be bothered to go to Dubai), not because FZ flies to Kathmandu and hence EK won’t, but because EK is unwilling to serve emerging cities, especially in Asia.

Not to throw shade at EK—it is the best-run Middle Eastern airline without a scintilla of doubt—but its brand image has never struck me as impressively as QR’s does. QR is trying the very best it can to expand its network despite the blockade, with LIS being a good example, and it has gone ahead with launching service to emerging African and Eurasian markets such as RBA, MLA and even MGQ. To see it go head-to-head against TK and IST in this way (and TK doesn’t even fly to Oceania, for all its strengths) is truly commendable.


Yet EK makes money and QR doesn’t, so all these routes that EK is too ‘lazy’ to launch isn’t bringing QR much in return.

EK’s days of crazy growth are gone, as DXB is near its maximum operational limits and the airline has matured to a point that it is becoming more conservative in its approach.

Even though they are losing money, QR will likely keep pushing ahead with expansion to drive an agenda, but if it is structurally not a solid platform to build from, it really should be reconsidering it’s strategy.


They will not change their strategy to anything other than fly to everywhere regardless if we make money or not. The continued expansion while losing money should show everyone the “strategy” is not to make money.
 
Sokes
Posts: 239
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:23 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I really think Iran firing missiles randomly - the only country QR flies over in gulf doesn't make their pax feel any safer.


Let's hope they don't start firing weapons of mass destruction randomly.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Antarius
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:24 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit.


Yes that is what I did. Fly business, but on other airlines like Emirates, Cathays Pacific and AA. You completely missed the point, many people start flying on coach. I don't agree with Qatars operation in this regards, so I fly other airlines. Thank goodness we have a choice in air travel. What I don't like about the whole arrangement is about they force Oneworld to have exemptions.


Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.


It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:35 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
Even though they are losing money, QR will likely keep pushing ahead with expansion to drive an agenda, but if it is structurally not a solid platform to build from, it really should be reconsidering it’s strategy.

QR has been too much 'me too' and gave first mover advantage to EK. EK also fundamentally changed laws to attract expatriates to grow their economy and O&D traffic.

This isn't just the airline. Qatar must diversify the economy. This means helping people to move to Doha.

QR needs to right size their flights. They also need better partnering, my opinion is AA doesn't like the rules QR imposes. It isn't good enough to be in oneworld, QR must work with AA, BA, and CX to play well with each other. I personally think EY and QR couldn't have partnered worse from the implementation view. Ok, EY gets the prize for most money thrown away with Air Berlin, Alitalia, and Jet Airways.

Lightsaber
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lalib
Posts: 87
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:03 pm

chonetsao wrote:
lalib wrote:
With regard to equity investments that QR has recently made, instead of going for the premier or OW members why not invest in the airlines that could actually benefit from a cash injection and QR's management expertise. A number of airlines come to mind, PIA, Iran Air, Sri Lankan and Bangladesh airlines. For example, PK has a fleet of 40 aircraft and a population of well over 200 Million. Focus on the domestic routes by bringing in fuel efficient a/c and improving schedule integrity. This will drive the one or two domestic operators out. At least one of those airlines are owned by a Politician.

On a Govt level Qatar and the mentioned countries are close and culturally they can get along. It will be more rewarding.


All the airlines you mentioned is strife with mismanagement and extreme-nationalism characteristics. Tribal mentality is bad for business, yet all the airline you mentioned is very tribal. Even Qatar Airways realise it is better to invest in airlines that operates in liberal market conditions. That tells you why Qatar will not invest in the airlines you mentioned.


I have worked for Etihad Corporate a few years ago. AB and AZ were the poorest performers and a huge drain on the resources. Apart from the market dynamics for each Airline it was understood that the people/management at these airlines were difficult to work with. So airlines operating in liberal markets doesn't mean very much. EK succeeded with UL many years back.

I should have stated in my original message that these airlines should first be privatized before QR getting involved.
 
sabby
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:03 pm

Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

Yes that is what I did. Fly business, but on other airlines like Emirates, Cathays Pacific and AA. You completely missed the point, many people start flying on coach. I don't agree with Qatars operation in this regards, so I fly other airlines. Thank goodness we have a choice in air travel. What I don't like about the whole arrangement is about they force Oneworld to have exemptions.


Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.


It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


Last I remember, QR do provide lounge access to Oneworld status members travelling in Y, but in separate lounges called Qatar Airways Business Class lounge and Qatar Airways First Class lounge. There's another one called Oryx lounge which is for Oneworld status holder flying BA/UL/RJ.
Al Safwa and Al Mourjan are reserved for QR F/J pax to have a distinguished service and I think that's perfectly fine to encourage fly premium with them.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:35 pm

sabby wrote:
Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.


It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


Last I remember, QR do provide lounge access to Oneworld status members travelling in Y, but in separate lounges called Qatar Airways Business Class lounge and Qatar Airways First Class lounge. There's another one called Oryx lounge which is for Oneworld status holder flying BA/UL/RJ.
Al Safwa and Al Mourjan are reserved for QR F/J pax to have a distinguished service and I think that's perfectly fine to encourage fly premium with them.


I'm a bit confused. Can you clarify for me please:

Al Safwa and Al Mourjan lounges are reserved for F & J pax. Does this mean no Y pax allowed?
OW pax can access Qatar Airways Business Class and First Class lounges. Do the Al Safwa and Al Mourjan lounges fall into these categories as well?
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1759
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:42 pm

Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

Yes that is what I did. Fly business, but on other airlines like Emirates, Cathays Pacific and AA. You completely missed the point, many people start flying on coach. I don't agree with Qatars operation in this regards, so I fly other airlines. Thank goodness we have a choice in air travel. What I don't like about the whole arrangement is about they force Oneworld to have exemptions.


Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.


It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


If you do not fly J or F on every flight, you are most certainly chasing the lowest price. It has nothing to do with loyalty. If you were loyal, you would always book J or F even when you are not flying on your company's dime, and you would have the lounge freely. Why do you think you should be able to get the lounge access, while flying on a cheap economy ticket and crowding the space for those who have paid thousands of dollars more, is beyond me... You want lounge access - buy J and F and you no longer have to worry about it.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:10 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Hub bypass is hitting high gear with the NEO, 787, and A350.

Challenging times, in particular with the new IST.

Lightsaber


Seriously, it's boring you peddle continual the IST airport. It has major problems.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... w-airport/

Also, THY-Turkish is struggling finances too:

https://www.intellinews.com/turkish-air ... ts-167389/

Airlines are bypassing IST. Turkey is a terror-hotspot. One event, game over.

Same with Doha. It lost the Saudi and UAE markets and losing the money in big way. Doha and IST both over-hyped and are bypassed hubs. Qataria will lose even more money.


Wow! Yes new IST has teething issues but it has been best that nothing more. The pax surveys have been continually improving. Turkey a terror hot spot? By whose claim yours? By that measure paris had more protests etc is it also a terror-hotspot, you are full of it, do everyone a favor and educate yourself more about stuff you make bold statements about. Slight downturn in pax numbers because Turkish economic problems and domestic pax reluctance to try the new and far airport, transfer pax numbers will increase as always. TK is adding 787’s and see what markets they will open up and lets see if your bypass claim sticks. Sorry to everyone didn’t mean to hijack the thread.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
Antarius
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:13 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.


It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


If you do not fly J or F on every flight, you are most certainly chasing the lowest price. It has nothing to do with loyalty. If you were loyal, you would always book J or F even when you are not flying on your company's dime, and you would have the lounge freely. Why do you think you should be able to get the lounge access, while flying on a cheap economy ticket and crowding the space for those who have paid thousands of dollars more, is beyond me... You want lounge access - buy J and F and you no longer have to worry about it.


I repeat, Penny wise, pound foolish. The rest of the world manages, while also making money. Something that QR isnt doing.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1759
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:29 pm

Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
Antarius wrote:

It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


If you do not fly J or F on every flight, you are most certainly chasing the lowest price. It has nothing to do with loyalty. If you were loyal, you would always book J or F even when you are not flying on your company's dime, and you would have the lounge freely. Why do you think you should be able to get the lounge access, while flying on a cheap economy ticket and crowding the space for those who have paid thousands of dollars more, is beyond me... You want lounge access - buy J and F and you no longer have to worry about it.


I repeat, Penny wise, pound foolish. The rest of the world manages, while also making money. Something that QR isnt doing.


You, like quite a few, feel that you are entitled to something you did not pay for. You are not! Pay up or move on. If businesses like QR were to continue to allow spongers like you, they would have to declare bankruptcy. I want the amenities that come with a J or F ticket and so I pay for the tickets that provide those amenities. I can't afford the tickets, I don't fly. You should learn to do the same.
 
Antarius
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:33 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

If you do not fly J or F on every flight, you are most certainly chasing the lowest price. It has nothing to do with loyalty. If you were loyal, you would always book J or F even when you are not flying on your company's dime, and you would have the lounge freely. Why do you think you should be able to get the lounge access, while flying on a cheap economy ticket and crowding the space for those who have paid thousands of dollars more, is beyond me... You want lounge access - buy J and F and you no longer have to worry about it.


I repeat, Penny wise, pound foolish. The rest of the world manages, while also making money. Something that QR isnt doing.


You, like quite a few, feel that you are entitled to something you did not pay for. You are not! Pay up or move on.


Again, QR can leave OneWorld. But these are the rules they and I signed up. And those include those supposed benefits that we "entitled" people get.

So yes, we are entitled to these benefits by the rules we signed up for.

If you want to play by different rules and pooh pooh at us commoners, go fly private.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:20 pm

Does anyone know how QR's routes to North America are doing in load factor or anecdotal evidence on yield? It seems like EK never lost first mover advantage.

As to treating IW, it seems as if AA hasn't played well. Someone posted upthread there is another lounge for Y oneworld and others. Of course if QR doesn't meet your expectations someone will fly another airline.

I personally believe haphazard expansion is a problem at QR. I personally believe they have too diversied of a fleet. I would speculate Y class loyalty is not a root cause.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
sabby
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:02 am

AEROFAN wrote:
sabby wrote:
Antarius wrote:

It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


Last I remember, QR do provide lounge access to Oneworld status members travelling in Y, but in separate lounges called Qatar Airways Business Class lounge and Qatar Airways First Class lounge. There's another one called Oryx lounge which is for Oneworld status holder flying BA/UL/RJ.
Al Safwa and Al Mourjan are reserved for QR F/J pax to have a distinguished service and I think that's perfectly fine to encourage fly premium with them.


I'm a bit confused. Can you clarify for me please:

Al Safwa and Al Mourjan lounges are reserved for F & J pax. Does this mean no Y pax allowed?
OW pax can access Qatar Airways Business Class and First Class lounges. Do the Al Safwa and Al Mourjan lounges fall into these categories as well?


Those are not categories, those are the names of the lounges. I know, it confused me too. Let me try to be more clear.

There are 5 lounges in Doha -
1. Qatar Airways Business Class and 2. Qatar Airways First Class lounges are open to passengers flying in OneWorld airlines in J or F along with OneWorld status members travelling in Y.
3. Oryx Lounge - Open for only British Airways, Srilankan Airlines and Royal Jordanian passengers
4. Al Safwa - For Passengers flying First Class in Qatar Airways
5. Al Mourjan - For Passengers flying in Business class in Qatar Airways

So, Qatar Airlines are treating the Oneworld passengers as expected and in additionally they have Al Mourjan and Al Safwa exclusively for QR pax to encourage them to fly with them with much superior experience. This strategy seems perfectly fine to me.

Antarius wrote:
Again, QR can leave OneWorld. But these are the rules they and I signed up. And those include those supposed benefits that we "entitled" people get.
So yes, we are entitled to these benefits by the rules we signed up for.

As I explained above, QR follow the alliance rules and provide lounge access to all OW status members. It is just that they have separate lounges for pax flying with them.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 7888
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Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:16 am

AEROFAN wrote:
Antarius wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

Perhaps I missed your point because there was none: You stated the following: " Personally I don't fly QR is due to their lounge access policy. I am so used to oneworld open door lounge policy (economy passengers can access any lounge based on status)" To which I replied: " I am glad QR does not offer lounge access to people flying any fare with economy attached to it. Why should it? That's cheapening the value of business and first class. If you want lounge access, buy a fare that provides that benefit
Lounge access is a benefit provided to people who shill out a ridiculous premium above economy for a bit of exclusivity. QR is perfectly right not to have an open door lounge. Kudos to them. Hope this doesn't change by end of September when I fly them.


It is a benefit of alliance loyalty. Not every flight do I fly J, but having enhanced benefits keeps me within OW vs chasing the lowest price.

Penny wise, pound foolish is a good way to describe QRs policy.


If you do not fly J or F on every flight, you are most certainly chasing the lowest price. It has nothing to do with loyalty. If you were loyal, you would always book J or F even when you are not flying on your company's dime, and you would have the lounge freely. Why do you think you should be able to get the lounge access, while flying on a cheap economy ticket and crowding the space for those who have paid thousands of dollars more, is beyond me... You want lounge access - buy J and F and you no longer have to worry about it.


Jeez calm down. I'm Qantas Gold (Oneworld Saphire) and am loyal to Oneworld carriers when traveling for leisure but frankly don't have the means to pay for Business Class airfares for myself. In reality I probably could afford it if I cut down on spending money on other things that I value in my life more than 10 hours in a more comfortable seat. How I spend my money though is quite frankly none of your business. One thing that keeps me loyal to Oneworld is lounge access regardless of class flown, and while my leisure spend is less lucrative to the airline they are still getting that money rather than a competitor.

For the record I have no issue with Qatar's lounge policy: they have lounges for high status economy passengers (confusingly referred to us as Business Class and First Class lounges), just separate to the lounges that Business and First passengers are entitled to use. The way some passengers on this thread are carrying on you'd think they don't offer lounge access to high status economy passengers at all. That is completely false.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
moa999
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:26 am

And at the other outstations with QR lounges with the same policy (LHR and BKK, and possibly soon SIN), there are other oneworld lounges that can be used
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:16 am

If I had to place a bet on which of the ME3 would go under first, it would be QR.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
Blerg
Posts: 2362
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:24 am

dampfnudel wrote:
If I had to place a bet on which of the ME3 would go under first, it would be QR.


My guess would be Etihad, either through a merger with EK or simply shutting down due to huge debt and/or massive losses.
 
moa999
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Qatar Airways Reports $632 Million Loss

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:31 am

Etihad has the richest state support behind it.
There is a reason the tallest building in Dubai isn't the Burj Emirates

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