I don't know if this is being discussed anywhere else on here but I think this is an interesting take on how to jumpstart Moxy and swap out old E175s with some Azul 190s, they hold the same type rating so it should be impossible to do but like I said, an interesting take...

Thoughts lads? J

https://crankyflier.com/2019/09/17/moxy ... y-compass/

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

alasizon wrote:

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

The FAA isn't issuing new 121 certs at the moment. They'll have to buy one somewhere.

Varsity1 wrote:

The FAA isn't issuing new 121 certs at the moment. They'll have to buy one somewhere.

This I don't understand. With all of the merger activity in the last decade, there is definitely room for new entrants. Annoying.

I always imagined Compass going to Skywest. They already have an overlapping route map and fleet. With DL, dropping them I can't see them remaining by themselves.

ODwyerPW wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

The FAA isn't issuing new 121 certs at the moment. They'll have to buy one somewhere.

This I don't understand. With all of the merger activity in the last decade, there is definitely room for new entrants. Annoying.

I thought they were again (as of like 2016). Good to know I was wrong.

Still not sure that Compass is the road they would go down as they would still be doing AA flying at the required time of acquisition.

Varsity1 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

The FAA isn't issuing new 121 certs at the moment. They'll have to buy one somewhere.

Is there any reasoning behind this decision? It seems to go against free capitalist market, which this administration is all about...

alasizon wrote:

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

It would be the easiest and cheapest way for Moxy to come in existence. They could buy the certificate, move HQ to where they want, lay off the workers that they don't need, keep the ones who they do, and make it their own very easily.

I do like the idea, but.... Neeleman a team would clean house in the exec and management level. Then, comes a culture change that might cost more to revamp than what it would to start fresh. I would love to see Compass flourish, and of course I really really care about it's workers. I bet the stress for them right now is real.

airtran737 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

It would be the easiest and cheapest way for Moxy to come in existence. They could buy the certificate, move HQ to where they want, lay off the workers that they don't need, keep the ones who they do, and make it their own very easily.

Laying off workers that they don’t want and getting out of contracts that they won’t want (ie the AA flying, old HQ lease, etc) is not necessarily easy or cheap. There is a reason dead airlines’ certificate are usually chosen to jumpstart operations.

Would be funny though, Compass was started by NW buying Independence Air’s certificate.

airtran737 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

It would be the easiest and cheapest way for Moxy to come in existence. They could buy the certificate, move HQ to where they want, lay off the workers that they don't need, keep the ones who they do, and make it their own very easily.

That argument relies on the idea that it's better to acquire than hire your own people, and that the skills of Compass employees are worth at least what they're paid. What's the evidence that Compass has among the sharpest tools in the shed?

WayexTDI wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Better off starting fresh with your own leadership and team. Neeleman and Co. know how to start an airline and more than likely MSP, LAX and PHX facilities don't fit what they are looking for. Plus, they know those pilots will be more than willing to come over to Moxy for a pay raise and QoL increase. If it was a struggling/small start-up looking for an air carrier certificate to get a jump on operations it would make more sense but Neeleman has no intention of Moxy being small (relatively).

The FAA isn't issuing new 121 certs at the moment. They'll have to buy one somewhere.

Is there any reasoning behind this decision? It seems to go against free capitalist market, which this administration is all about...

There were some lack of oversight issues, primarily in south Florida that made the topic an "issue". Existing airlines (and 135 charter companies) support blocking off the market.

Don't get me wrong, there are tons of 121 certs floating around out there. Even Great Lakes is still out there.

Varsity1 wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

The FAA isn't issuing new 121 certs at the moment. They'll have to buy one somewhere.

Is there any reasoning behind this decision? It seems to go against free capitalist market, which this administration is all about...

There were some lack of oversight issues, primarily in south Florida that made the topic an "issue". Existing airlines (and 135 charter companies) support blocking off the market.

Don't get me wrong, there are tons of 121 certs floating around out there. Even Great Lakes is still out there.

So, free market my behind then?

I believe David will do what's reasonable to get Moxy off the ground - even if it means acquiring another airline. But factoring in his background, I think he's more likely to start with a clean slate than acquiring an existing airline.

If one would pardon the expression - there's just too much baggage.

WayexTDI wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Is there any reasoning behind this decision? It seems to go against free capitalist market, which this administration is all about...

There were some lack of oversight issues, primarily in south Florida that made the topic an "issue". Existing airlines (and 135 charter companies) support blocking off the market.

Don't get me wrong, there are tons of 121 certs floating around out there. Even Great Lakes is still out there.

So, free market my behind then?

It has never been a free market. Even post deregulation, it's still highly regulated.

There is a need for another low-cost airline and opportunities to bring much-needed service to many medium-sized cities which are steadily losing mainline flights. If it provides the mid-size city services they plan, Moxy will be good for consumers and the overall economy. But at a macro level the US economy is starting to wobble. The growing political uncertainty in the Middle East, tarrifs wars with China (& maybe the EU) and a US working population sinking deeper in debt is setting the table for the next recession. So the economic window of opportunity for Moxy to get in the air is starting to narrow. They need to move fast.

While Compass presents a potential buying opportunity for Moxy there are still complicated relationships with its parent airlines to be sorted out. Even though Delta is ending its relationship with Compass, they still share pre-merger NW RADAR crew scheduling software and a Delta-owned HQ building at MSP. What Compass would bring to the party for Moxy is an operating certificate and pilots, training, maintenance crew, dispatchers all versed in the E175. This would offer a leg-up in establishing Moxy's initial E190/195 operation using ex-Azul equipment. But would Delta be willing to aid in the establishment of a potential competitor? Also, would AA be willing to end their contract with Compass early?

FLALEFTY wrote:

While Compass presents a potential buying opportunity for Moxy there are still complicated relationships with its parent airlines to be sorted out. Even though Delta is ending its relationship with Compass, they still share pre-merger NW RADAR crew scheduling software and a Delta-owned HQ building at MSP. What Compass would bring to the party for Moxy is an operating certificate and pilots, training, maintenance crew, dispatchers all versed in the E175. This would offer a leg-up in establishing Moxy's initial E190/195 operation using ex-Azul equipment. But would Delta be willing to aid in the establishment of a potential competitor? Also, would AA be willing to end their contract with Compass early?

DL has no actual control over Compass. Would they kick them out of the MSP office space? Sure. But office space is probably the easiest thing for an airline to get right now (Class A and Class B office space is abundant in just about every metro except NYC and the Texas metros).

As far as AA, the frames were already planned/budgeted to go back to Envoy eventually so as long as Envoy can handle accepting 20 additional frames it would be fine. I believe the target was for early 2021 anyhow so moving that up could cause problems on the MX front but a few extra dollars from Neeleman thrown in the direction of AA might help move that along.

Buy the part 121 operating certificate is smart.
Doing it from scratch is possible but takes time and $$

It's not like the Compass certificate has't been down this road before, as this is exactly how Compass was started.