TWA85
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Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:09 pm

DL CEO Ed Bastian has stated the SkyTeam Alliance has failed to provide member airlines and their customers the benefits they are intended to. As a result, DL is placing a greater emphasis on developing and deepening its relationships with other airlines on an individual basis. The goal is to develop their own global network of carriers with DL as the centerpiece of it. This is not surprising considering the fact DL has been doing this for quite some time now, however it is surprising that Ed Bastian would publicly admit the alliance is not producing intended results. Although DL is not actively preparing to exit the alliance at this time, their commitment to it is clearly diminishing. Could this be the beginning of the end for SkyTeam and even all three global airline alliances. Also, how much further could DL go in developing its global network of airlines? Could DL start looking at establishing relationships with airlines in other alliances like SQ? Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/19/ ... -carriers/
 
jetwet1
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:12 pm

I wondered if something like this was coming, DL have been creating their own mini alliance for a while now.
 
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enilria
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:32 pm

This is not unique to Delta, ATI JVs have killed traditional alliances. Alliances do not allow capacity coordination. That is key to the price and margin control Delta wants. Basically alliances allow “too much competition” between partners is the real translation.
 
Antarius
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:39 pm

enilria wrote:
This is not unique to Delta, ATI JVs have killed traditional alliances. Alliances do not allow capacity coordination. That is key to the price and margin control Delta wants. Basically alliances allow “too much competition” between partners is the real translation.


Alliances also grew too fast, which led to wildly disparate airline quality, routes and behavior. What value does Alitalia or Air India add?
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
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mercure1
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:40 pm

Always felt Star and oneworld much more integrated and more active participants versus Skyteam.

While the mix of airlines certainly plays a part, but to me Skyteam just lacked enthusiasm and in many ways was secondary thought.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:45 pm

Very unsurprising. DL is concerned, first and foremost, about leveraging its partnerships to earn revenue. They do this through joint ventures and investments that allow them to influence the decisions of other carriers. It’s much more effective than spending time doing nothing with carriers such as AR and SU who bring little to the table for DL in terms of income. One problem is that apart from AF, KL, VS, KE, AM and perhaps AZ, other carriers do little to nothing for US passengers who fly primarily DL, and they are often nefarious competitors. Being in ST means nothing in terms of revenue sharing and synergies. Would totally understand if ST were disbanded at some point and DL created a new alliance based on its JVs and regional must-haves like GOL and Westjet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:53 pm

TWA85 wrote:
Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?


Hmm, no, they're not endless:

1. Lots of countries limit ownership stakes, and equity ownership without real influence is worthless to DL.

2. There's a finite number of carriers where an equity stake makes strategic sense. There's no reason to have a stake in Garuda Indonesia, as an example. There aren't enough American travelers to Indonesia; Garuda brings few unique destinations not already served by other alliance or equity-stake carriers. Look at the top ten international country destinations from the U.S. DL already has equity or JV stakes (pending) in carriers to give them #1 or #2 position in most of those markets: Canada, Mexico, UK, Japan (fail), Germany (fail), China, France, Dominican Republic (no meaningful carrier), S Korea, Netherlands, Brazil...

3. There's only so much free cash flow, and DL needs to buy a lot of aircraft over the next five or six years. Widebodies aren't cheap.

4. There will be pushback from DL pilots (both on the investment side and flight hours side) , who expect to fly long-haul international, not ATL-CMH/PIT/MCO for the rest of their lives.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:54 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Always felt Star and oneworld much more integrated and more active participants versus Skyteam.


Bastian mentioned value for customers. On how many Star carriers can one use a UA SWU? On how many oneworld carriers an AA SWU? A Delta SWU on SkyTeam?
 
JBLUA320
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Always felt Star and oneworld much more integrated and more active participants versus Skyteam.


Bastian mentioned value for customers. On how many Star carriers can one use a UA SWU? On how many oneworld carriers an AA SWU? A Delta SWU on SkyTeam?


I wish the alliances provided more value. I am a United 1K and have 2 trips booked through United (issued on UA stock) with partner flights. On the Air Canada ticket, I can't get a free seat assignment and on the SN Brussels flight, I can't even check a bag for free, despite being on a United ticket in Business Class. I'm happy to book my travel on United stock to keep my status when the price allows... but I can't even get a free seat assignment across *A carriers? Seems a little weak, especially when United 1K earns you Star Gold.

To answer your question, United GPUs can be used on ANA and LH. It's nearly impossible to find inventory on ANA and they also do not waitlist. Lufthansa is a little easier.

I digress. Sort of. ;)
 
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Aisak
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:23 pm

Etihad partners all over again???
 
atcpeter
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Always felt Star and oneworld much more integrated and more active participants versus Skyteam.


Bastian mentioned value for customers. On how many Star carriers can one use a UA SWU? On how many oneworld carriers an AA SWU? A Delta SWU on SkyTeam?


"Value" varies from one traveler to the next, but the point is a good one. Using a UA GPU to get to LH First is a great value, if the availability is there. Having Star Alliance Gold is nice for lounge access (like for TK and LH), but only useful if that's where your travel takes you. I appreciate getting free AM+ and First upgrade opportunities on Aeromexico, but that's probably more a function of the JV than ST. And AF will be indifferent regardless of your ST status, so...
 
winginit
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:34 pm

Aisak wrote:
Etihad partners all over again???


Except with competent players and arguably the most competent team captain at the top of the ticket.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:30 pm

Seems like something that was almost entirely within DL's control
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Antarius
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:50 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Seems like something that was almost entirely within DL's control


Agreed. At the time, though, DL and ST were grabbing anyone and everyone they could to help counter the ST dominance, which resulted in a disparate amalgamation of parties. OW grew slower and while they have some oddballs like S7 and former AB, the anchor airlines like BA, QF, AA, CX, LA are large airlines and formidable players where they are and able to sufficiently connect passengers.

Niche players like TAROM, Saudia etc. add nothing material to an alliance
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
strfyr51
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:58 pm

TWA85 wrote:
DL CEO Ed Bastian has stated the SkyTeam Alliance has failed to provide member airlines and their customers the benefits they are intended to. As a result, DL is placing a greater emphasis on developing and deepening its relationships with other airlines on an individual basis. The goal is to develop their own global network of carriers with DL as the centerpiece of it. This is not surprising considering the fact DL has been doing this for quite some time now, however it is surprising that Ed Bastian would publicly admit the alliance is not producing intended results. Although DL is not actively preparing to exit the alliance at this time, their commitment to it is clearly diminishing. Could this be the beginning of the end for SkyTeam and even all three global airline alliances. Also, how much further could DL go in developing its global network of airlines? Could DL start looking at establishing relationships with airlines in other alliances like SQ? Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/19/ ... -carriers/

Delta could develop an alliance with SQ since SQ is merely a member of "Star" in Name only.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:05 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
TWA85 wrote:
DL CEO Ed Bastian has stated the SkyTeam Alliance has failed to provide member airlines and their customers the benefits they are intended to. As a result, DL is placing a greater emphasis on developing and deepening its relationships with other airlines on an individual basis. The goal is to develop their own global network of carriers with DL as the centerpiece of it. This is not surprising considering the fact DL has been doing this for quite some time now, however it is surprising that Ed Bastian would publicly admit the alliance is not producing intended results. Although DL is not actively preparing to exit the alliance at this time, their commitment to it is clearly diminishing. Could this be the beginning of the end for SkyTeam and even all three global airline alliances. Also, how much further could DL go in developing its global network of airlines? Could DL start looking at establishing relationships with airlines in other alliances like SQ? Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/19/ ... -carriers/

Delta could develop an alliance with SQ since SQ is merely a member of "Star" in Name only.


I was wondering about that. It certainly seems like UA and SQ have been competing more and more over the last few years. DL has a strong presence in East Asia in Korean and China Eastern, but really lacks a strong partner in SE Asia (one could argue that Vietnam Airways will become more relevant as the nation grows, but right now, they really only offer duplicate service [already offered through ICN or PVG on China Eastern and/or Korean] to major Vietnamese cities). A major partner in SIN would be the perfect complement to ICN and PVG.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:17 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
TWA85 wrote:
DL CEO Ed Bastian has stated the SkyTeam Alliance has failed to provide member airlines and their customers the benefits they are intended to. As a result, DL is placing a greater emphasis on developing and deepening its relationships with other airlines on an individual basis. The goal is to develop their own global network of carriers with DL as the centerpiece of it. This is not surprising considering the fact DL has been doing this for quite some time now, however it is surprising that Ed Bastian would publicly admit the alliance is not producing intended results. Although DL is not actively preparing to exit the alliance at this time, their commitment to it is clearly diminishing. Could this be the beginning of the end for SkyTeam and even all three global airline alliances. Also, how much further could DL go in developing its global network of airlines? Could DL start looking at establishing relationships with airlines in other alliances like SQ? Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/19/ ... -carriers/

Delta could develop an alliance with SQ since SQ is merely a member of "Star" in Name only.



umm I don't think so, I think that SQ only misbehaves with UA, but for example Lufthansa Group airlines (LH, LX) has grown a lot in those territories SQ flies from FRA, MUC, DUS and for Scoot to TXL the presence of SQ in Germany, in New Zealand the same good relationship with NZ has helped them to consolidate perfectly already in summer 2020 the A380 is maintained throughout the year, with NH it also has good relations between both dominate the SIN-Japan market, they are SAS have also grown a lot in CPH and recently launched Stockholm, with Air China also maintaining good relations
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:34 pm

I think that if Delta Airlines (DL) wants to make a new alliance, I imagine they would be integrated by WestJet, Aeromexico, GOL, Virgin Atlantic, Air France, KLM, Alitalia, Korean Air, China Eastern, Virgin Australia and Kenya Airways, possibly Vistara It would be a very strong alliance with strong partners in North America, South America, Europe, Africa, Australia / Pacific, China, Asia and a partner in India would be important
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
strfyr51
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:47 pm

Is Sky Team a Failure? or is Delta Seeking to Expand their Footprint with other carriers outside of their Alliance Partners? I Ask because I've long thought that even Star Alliance was "LONG IN THE TOOTH" concept that had run it's course. United, Lufthansa, Singapore and Japan Airlines have worked together for Years in the USA and around the world that I know of, At SFO? The SQ Maint Rep was as Welcome as I was at United. We also handled and did Maint for EVA and even KLM on occasion if they needed it along with Air China and China Airlines Who ruined More than One Thanksgiving Pot Luck Dinners for me at work at SFO.
 
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chepos
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:49 pm

Another player I feel brings little value to SkyTeam is UX. They serve their home market well but not sure how they benefit from being in SkyTeam. I do believe they have close ties to AR. They don’t have to be in ST for that.


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usflyer msp
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:09 am

flyfresno wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
TWA85 wrote:
DL CEO Ed Bastian has stated the SkyTeam Alliance has failed to provide member airlines and their customers the benefits they are intended to. As a result, DL is placing a greater emphasis on developing and deepening its relationships with other airlines on an individual basis. The goal is to develop their own global network of carriers with DL as the centerpiece of it. This is not surprising considering the fact DL has been doing this for quite some time now, however it is surprising that Ed Bastian would publicly admit the alliance is not producing intended results. Although DL is not actively preparing to exit the alliance at this time, their commitment to it is clearly diminishing. Could this be the beginning of the end for SkyTeam and even all three global airline alliances. Also, how much further could DL go in developing its global network of airlines? Could DL start looking at establishing relationships with airlines in other alliances like SQ? Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/19/ ... -carriers/

Delta could develop an alliance with SQ since SQ is merely a member of "Star" in Name only.


I was wondering about that. It certainly seems like UA and SQ have been competing more and more over the last few years. DL has a strong presence in East Asia in Korean and China Eastern, but really lacks a strong partner in SE Asia (one could argue that Vietnam Airways will become more relevant as the nation grows, but right now, they really only offer duplicate service [already offered through ICN or PVG on China Eastern and/or Korean] to major Vietnamese cities). A major partner in SIN would be the perfect complement to ICN and PVG.


SE Asian carriers don't care about having a strong NA partner. NA accounts for a miniscule percentage of their traffic. They need a strong European partner and a strong Australasian partner to supplement their local/regional networks. SQ joining Skyteam would be a step backwards in those respects (Also, don't forget they only reason DL has ownership stakes in VS and VA is because SQ sold theirs)...
 
WN732
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:24 am

Unfortunately SkyTeam has always been in last place as far as alliances go. They have limited reach in certain parts of the world that OneWorld and Star have a definite advantage.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:41 am

Skyteam was the third of the three big alliances to form and has always been made up of misfits that weren't good enough for the first two. No surprise to see the beginning of the end.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:46 am

Antarius wrote:
What value does Alitalia or Air India add?


Before the 787s arrived, Star Alliance partner Air India was the only way Air Canada could get a share of the YVR-DEL market, with AI's DEL-LHR route feeding into AC's YVR-LHR route. Admittedly, the AC/LH/UA joint venture in 2009 crippled the AC/AI route, since Lufthansa had a deep Indian network.

Incidentally, Air Canada had its own YVR-LHR-DEL route using the 747-400 Combis, but the tag-on to Delhi was discontinued in the post-9/11 fallout. This was AC896/897. Despite having one of the largest Sikh communities outside of India, YVR would not see direct flights to India for another 15 years. Similiarly, AC878/879 from Toronto to Zurich had a ZRH-DEL tag on until 2012, using the 767-300ER. YYZ-DEL nonstop came on November 1, 2015, AC's first nonstop flight to India.

Off-topic aside: Around the time of the Air Canada/Lufthansa joint venture, Emirates requested daily DXB-YVR rights, but this would have jeopardized the AC/LH JV (Lufthansa would end up getting a lot of YVR pax connecting to India, and the demand resulted in a 343->346->744 upgauge within five years), and EK wouldn't accept any less than daily, so Transport Canada denied the request. In retaliation, the Emirati government made the dumb decision to close the secret Canadian Forces facility at Al-Minhad Air Base (it's never a good thing when governments tie military base usage to civilian aviation bilaterals), and Canada-UAE relations were decimated for several years. Ties only started recovering about 2-3 years ago, with Emirati citizens getting a six month visa waiver to Canada last June, and and EK/EY being allowed to expand YYZ to 5x weekly a few months later.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:55 am

Delta now owns in part most of the major players of the alliance. They can have far more influence on the direction and customer experience through a seat at the board room. No wonder.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:12 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
What value does Alitalia or Air India add?


Before the 787s arrived, Star Alliance partner Air India was the only way Air Canada could get a share of the YVR-DEL market, with AI's DEL-LHR route feeding into AC's YVR-LHR route. Admittedly, the AC/LH/UA joint venture in 2009 crippled the AC/AI route, since Lufthansa had a deep Indian network.


Before the 787s arrived, Air India was not in Star Alliance. AI joined Star in mid-2014.
Last edited by DTWLAX on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:16 am

Antarius wrote:
enilria wrote:
This is not unique to Delta, ATI JVs have killed traditional alliances. Alliances do not allow capacity coordination. That is key to the price and margin control Delta wants. Basically alliances allow “too much competition” between partners is the real translation.


Alliances also grew too fast, which led to wildly disparate airline quality, routes and behavior. What value does Alitalia or Air India add?


More than TAROM or SriLankan, network-wise.
Delta Gold Medallion and Southwest A-List
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:12 am

You also have to remember that not all countries are big enough to support all three alliances. The biggest hole I think is OneWorld not being in China.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:33 am

TWA85 wrote:
DL CEO Ed Bastian has stated the SkyTeam Alliance has failed to provide member airlines and their customers the benefits they are intended to. As a result, DL is placing a greater emphasis on developing and deepening its relationships with other airlines on an individual basis. The goal is to develop their own global network of carriers with DL as the centerpiece of it. This is not surprising considering the fact DL has been doing this for quite some time now, however it is surprising that Ed Bastian would publicly admit the alliance is not producing intended results. Although DL is not actively preparing to exit the alliance at this time, their commitment to it is clearly diminishing. Could this be the beginning of the end for SkyTeam and even all three global airline alliances. Also, how much further could DL go in developing its global network of airlines? Could DL start looking at establishing relationships with airlines in other alliances like SQ? Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?

https://viewfromthewing.com/2019/09/19/ ... -carriers/


What Ed Bastian stated could be also applied to China Southern Airlines, who in terms of fleet was the second largest carrier in SkyTeam after Delta when CZ left SkyTeam last year (although subsidiary XiamenAir is still in SkyTeam), as they desire to deepen relationships with oneworld carriers like American. Why this isn't like Etihad is because DL isn't just throwing money around---it's aligning with well-run carriers, like AM and G3 in the Americas, AF and KL in mainland Europe and VS (which finally has LHR feed with BE) in the UK. If the Chinese market were more open, there would be closer cooperation between DL and MU, as while Beijing is China's capital, Shanghai is China's capital capital. The real issue might be the Australasian region, especially with the financial issues plaguing VA, although Australia needs two carriers (there, I'm surprised that SQ and NZ haven't shaken things up with them).

Ziyulu wrote:
You also have to remember that not all countries are big enough to support all three alliances. The biggest hole I think is OneWorld not being in China.


While Cathay Pacific will likely block a mainland carrier from joining oneworld, China Southern will soon be there in all but name, working with other major oneworld carriers, especially as PKX slated to open soon.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:34 am

The alliances were a good idea. They should have worked together to create a seamless experience between airlines for their customers. Instead we got JV's that have only harmed the customer. Now we have both pitiful cooperation and higher fares. Gotta love it..
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:56 am

An alliance is only productive if the airlines involved want and make it so. For years DL hasn't appeared to be desiring either, so it's disingenuous to say ST is failing. Instead the goal is competition-reducing joint ventures, and DL is working heavily in that direction.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:04 am

is everyone here in high school? Skyteam/Delta (Northwest) created the "ALLIANCE" period. There was no international cooperation between carriers until Northwest and KLM linked up in the late 90s and it all grew from there.

Saying Skyteam was last to the plate, ha, that's just ridiculous. Also, as pointed out by their own 1K members, Star Alliance in particular does not give a **** about each others passengers, and in fact go so far as to treat alliance connecting passengers as steerage in their eyes. Trust me, they show their true colors to corporate travel agents too, we cant do anything for you all when LH/UA/AC are involved. The buck is passed all over.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:15 am

mercure1 wrote:
Always felt Star and oneworld much more integrated and more active participants versus Skyteam.

Star perhaps.

But you're toking some goooooood stuff if you actually believe that about OneWorld though. AA and BA didn't even codeshare until OneWorld was 9yrs old (contrary to popular belief, their ability to do so continentally was not prohibited by Bermuda II). Then there's CX vs QF, yikes.


TTailedTiger wrote:
Instead we got JV's that have only harmed the customer.

A ridiculous statement that you cannot tangibly demonstrate.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
rbavfan
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:34 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
TWA85 wrote:
Without the limitations of focusing solely on SkyTeam, the possibilities are intriguing and endless. What are your thoughts?


Hmm, no, they're not endless:

1. Lots of countries limit ownership stakes, and equity ownership without real influence is worthless to DL.

2. There's a finite number of carriers where an equity stake makes strategic sense. There's no reason to have a stake in Garuda Indonesia, as an example. There aren't enough American travelers to Indonesia; Garuda brings few unique destinations not already served by other alliance or equity-stake carriers. Look at the top ten international country destinations from the U.S. DL already has equity or JV stakes (pending) in carriers to give them #1 or #2 position in most of those markets: Canada, Mexico, UK, Japan (fail), Germany (fail), China, France, Dominican Republic (no meaningful carrier), S Korea, Netherlands, Brazil...

3. There's only so much free cash flow, and DL needs to buy a lot of aircraft over the next five or six years. Widebodies aren't cheap.

4. There will be pushback from DL pilots (both on the investment side and flight hours side) , who expect to fly long-haul international, not ATL-CMH/PIT/MCO for the rest of their lives.


Fail on number 2, you listed 11 countries but noted the top 10.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:43 am

LAX772LR wrote:
A ridiculous statement that you cannot tangibly demonstrate.


The only ridiculousness is claiming that the statement is ridiculous. It's an exaggeration perhaps, but the basis is factual. There's no need to demonstrate that JVs are anti-consumer as a whole. It's economics 101.

Alliances had the potential of being largely a win for consumers. Customers gain the advantage of larger networks and benefits, without the full elimination of competition. But as we see in life, what's better for the consumer isn't always better for the producer.
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:45 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
is everyone here in high school? Skyteam/Delta (Northwest) created the "ALLIANCE" period. There was no international cooperation between carriers until Northwest and KLM linked up in the late 90s and it all grew from there.

Saying Skyteam was last to the plate, ha, that's just ridiculous. Also, as pointed out by their own 1K members, Star Alliance in particular does not give a **** about each others passengers, and in fact go so far as to treat alliance connecting passengers as steerage in their eyes. Trust me, they show their true colors to corporate travel agents too, we cant do anything for you all when LH/UA/AC are involved. The buck is passed all over.


No, the modern concept of an alliance and codesharing was pioneered by UA and BA.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:49 am

MSPNWA wrote:
There's no need to demonstrate

...congrats on coming up with an even more ridiculous statement than the one in question. :rotfl:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Instead we got JV's that have only harmed the customer.

A ridiculous statement that you cannot tangibly demonstrate.


Oh? Let's say that I wanted to fly JFK-London before the JV's came along. I'll limit it to current DL JV partners.

I had the options of:

JFK-LHR on DL

JFK-LHR on VS

JFK-AMS-LHR on KLM

JFK-CDG-LHR on AF

They all had to compete for my $$$. But now those four options have been reduced to one.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 83
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:11 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Instead we got JV's that have only harmed the customer.

A ridiculous statement that you cannot tangibly demonstrate.


Oh? Let's say that I wanted to fly JFK-London before the JV's came along. I'll limit it to current DL JV partners.

I had the options of:

JFK-LHR on DL

JFK-LHR on VS

JFK-AMS-LHR on KLM

JFK-CDG-LHR on AF

They all had to compete for my $$$. But now those four options have been reduced to one.


When did KLM, AF, and VS stop serving JFK?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:14 am

seanpmassey wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

A ridiculous statement that you cannot tangibly demonstrate.


Oh? Let's say that I wanted to fly JFK-London before the JV's came along. I'll limit it to current DL JV partners.

I had the options of:

JFK-LHR on DL

JFK-LHR on VS

JFK-AMS-LHR on KLM

JFK-CDG-LHR on AF

They all had to compete for my $$$. But now those four options have been reduced to one.


When did KLM, AF, and VS stop serving JFK?


They didn't. You're missing the point. All of them are allowed to engage in price fixing now. There is no more competing among them. They all get a cut of the ticket price no matter who operates it.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 83
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:31 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Oh? Let's say that I wanted to fly JFK-London before the JV's came along. I'll limit it to current DL JV partners.

I had the options of:

JFK-LHR on DL

JFK-LHR on VS

JFK-AMS-LHR on KLM

JFK-CDG-LHR on AF

They all had to compete for my $$$. But now those four options have been reduced to one.


When did KLM, AF, and VS stop serving JFK?


They didn't. You're missing the point. All of them are allowed to engage in price fixing now. There is no more competing among them. They all get a cut of the ticket price no matter who operates it.


That wasn't the best way to make that point.

If they are in a partnership, why do they have to compete with each other?
 
airboss787
Posts: 86
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:44 am

Antarius wrote:
enilria wrote:
This is not unique to Delta, ATI JVs have killed traditional alliances. Alliances do not allow capacity coordination. That is key to the price and margin control Delta wants. Basically alliances allow “too much competition” between partners is the real translation.


Alliances also grew too fast, which led to wildly disparate airline quality, routes and behavior. What value does Alitalia or Air India add?


Deep access to the fastest growing aviation market. Air India is a pretty decent airline. Not the best by far, but not the worst by far too. The fact that it is government owned automatically gives other airlines access to remote areas of the country. It's a win-win with tremendous potential if implemented correctly.
Star Alliance Gold
 
onwFan
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:51 am

I have never seen SkyTeam as a 'success' story to begin with. I have a feeling that there is something happening behind the scenes.. Similar to what CZ did, probably a few other carriers are contemplating leaving the alliance when their contracts end. At least SU, KQ and TO have openly questioned the benefit of being in SkyTeam several times. I am almost certain MF will leave when its contract ends.

Honestly, I have no idea what ME, OK, TO, AR or KQ gain from being in alliance, or what they add to others SkyTeam members. For many of their members, anything beyond the previous 'Associate membership' or some new 'Connect' status doesn't make much sense...

Rather than dissolve the alliance, perhaps they could just allow some of the peripheral members who are not close to DL to leave the alliance without the cost penalties associated with it :-P Then DL can have a 'cleansed' SkyTeam to itself as it wants!
 
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adambrau
Posts: 263
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:43 am

ME gets a lot of USA traffic from AF and DL.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
DWC
Posts: 608
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:50 am

I opened a thread that was sadly locked because only Virgin's expansion was seen while I was detailing the chronology of something way more important :
DL & AF control 80% of VS, DL & VS are expanding routes & frequencies between JFK, EWR, ATL, BOS to LHR & LGW, VS announced they wanted umpteen of the new slots available when LHR build their 3rd runway, VS announced 82 new routes no less - wishful & communication driven no doubt, but the intent of ramping-up to compete on the same levels as BA is there. 49% DL-owned AM have increased frequencies to LHR while AM flights from Mexico feed DL's hubs & network.

My point in that post was that if even only some of that happens, LON (LHR & GWK ) would de facto become a Skyteam hub too ( or a Skyteam airlines hub should airlines be more than the alliance ), not just a OW stronghold, something like LAX, ORD or NRT in that two alliances would be vying for the same market.

I also noted there that QR are doing the same in OW, following LH Group's deeper links to UA & NH.
So all three alliances have one big hungry fat worm carving its way into the whole apple.
 
VTCIE
Posts: 335
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:57 am

Some members bring truly nothing to the SkyTeam alliance. For instance, OK is now fully owned by Smartwings (formerly called Travel Service), a low-cost airline. RO (TAROM) and MEA are also very tiny airlines. SV is not so small, with nearly 200 aircraft, but it has a more limited route network than EY (let alone QR/EK).

VN is growing well, but GA has massive management issues, and whether it will keep its F product is uncertain. It keeps playing Russian roulette with its LHR/LON and AMS routes. Barring the A330neo, which arrives next month, there is no aircraft delivery in the next few months (GA is the only Southeast Asian long-haul full-service carrier not to operate or order either the A350 or the 787). It also has to get its act together, which is extremely challenging.

Not to mention UX flies primarily to Latin America by way of long-haul. Both UX and AR serve primarily the Hispanic countries.

SkyTeam members whose value is underrated (due to not partnering with DL) include VN, SV, SU and AZ. Barring AZ, which is a basket case, the others may have some potential value. Both SV and SU have an excellent product, and SV offers first-class suites that are as good as EK or EY (QR’s first-class coverage, like GA’s, is negligible).
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
westgate
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:08 am

But the other major players in SkyTeam, especially as far as DL is concerned, do in fact have strong tie ups or are also partly owned by DL, such as of course AF, KL, KE and AM. These tie-ups or ATI's all operate under the SkyTeam banner regardless. The only major exception is of course VS which is not in SkyTeam at all. Every alliance has its peripheral add-ons such as AR or OK that really don't do much and/or don't cooperate significantly with the major airlines.

As another poster mentioned, SkyTeam still encompasses THE original alliance tie-up that was first established by NW and KL in the 90's and that currently manifests itself as 4x daily DL widebodies between DTW-AMS and 3x daily DL widebodies between MSP-AMS, both routes that likely wouldn't exist otherwise.

If you're flying anywhere on a mixed itinerary ticket on DL/AF, DL/KL, DL/KE or DL/AM, you'll be flying entirely on a SkyTeam itinerary, and yes the increasing tie-ups with non SkyTeam members such as VS, WS and G3 are certainly eroding the importance of SkyTeam to Delta, but for the foreseeable future the majority of DL customers that are connecting onto another airline, will still be connecting onto another SkyTeam member.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 110
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:03 pm

If in fact ST is inferior to the other two alliances in any meaningful way, this shift in Delta strategy may force a new shift in strategy by the other two, giving Delta first-move advantage. There is more to gain for Delta in exploring this strategy as eventually IMO it may then have more of a chance to pry away some key carriers from the other alliances.
And you bet that VA's recent heathrow proposal is really Delta furthering this new strategy.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:52 pm

enilria wrote:
Basically alliances allow “too much competition” between partners is the real translation.

My translation would be that we prefer full cartels to partial cartels.

TTailedTiger wrote:
The alliances were a good idea. They should have worked together to create a seamless experience between airlines for their customers. Instead we got JV's that have only harmed the customer. Now we have both pitiful cooperation and higher fares. Gotta love it..

:checkmark:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
klm617
Posts: 4460
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Re: Ed Bastian: SkyTeam Failed

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:22 pm

westgate wrote:
But the other major players in SkyTeam, especially as far as DL is concerned, do in fact have strong tie ups or are also partly owned by DL, such as of course AF, KL, KE and AM. These tie-ups or ATI's all operate under the SkyTeam banner regardless. The only major exception is of course VS which is not in SkyTeam at all. Every alliance has its peripheral add-ons such as AR or OK that really don't do much and/or don't cooperate significantly with the major airlines.

As another poster mentioned, SkyTeam still encompasses THE original alliance tie-up that was first established by NW and KL in the 90's and that currently manifests itself as 4x daily DL widebodies between DTW-AMS and 3x daily DL widebodies between MSP-AMS, both routes that likely wouldn't exist otherwise.

If you're flying anywhere on a mixed itinerary ticket on DL/AF, DL/KL, DL/KE or DL/AM, you'll be flying entirely on a SkyTeam itinerary, and yes the increasing tie-ups with non SkyTeam members such as VS, WS and G3 are certainly eroding the importance of SkyTeam to Delta, but for the foreseeable future the majority of DL customers that are connecting onto another airline, will still be connecting onto another SkyTeam member.



I think this is just the continuation of Delta divesting itself from anything Northwest. Delta wants to be Delta without anything that Northwest and it's long history created.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...

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