a350lover
Topic Author
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Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:24 pm

Analyzing Norwegian future network available for bookings in the coming months I see quite a few routes no longer operating:

ARN-FLL: last flight 04/11. Not resuming?
ARN-JFK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
ARN-LAX: last flight 24/10. Not resuming?
ARN-OAK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming? Doesn't look like moving to SFO.
Only route through W19-20 BKK & KBV
ARN-BKK: 1x/w from April 2020. Selling all departures at 714€ one way.

CPH-FLL: last flight 24/10. Not resuming?
CPH-JFK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
CPH-OAK last flight 26/10. Not resuming?
CPH-LAX: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
Only route through W19-20 BKK & KBV
CPH-BKK 1x/w from April 2020. Selling all departures at 953€ one way.

Other routes which aren't selling after OCT19 (aren't selling for summer 2020 either):

BCN-ORD
LGW-ORD
FCO-LAX
BCN-FLL
MAD-BOS
MAD-LAX

None of the South American routes available after MAR20:

LGW-EZE
LGW-GIG

Does this looks like a reasonable downsize of its operations?
Do you think they will put on sale these and other (new) routes?
Do they allow the time needed to mature the markets where they deploy offer?
Last edited by qf789 on Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cunard
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:40 pm

Regarding LGW-EZE and LGW-GIG.

It may well be the case that flights after March 2020 haven't been loaded in the system yet as Norwegian haven't made any official statement regarding these two routes ceasing.

The IATA summer season starts on Sunday 29 March 2020 with the IATA Winter season ending the day before.

Until it's officially confirmed by Norwegian there is nothing to say that these two South American routes from LGW are discontinuing after the 28 March 2020.

Let's hope that they continue serving EZE and GIG from LGW otherwise it's back to being a monopoly for those two routes from London.

Although on a side note if it wasn't for the financial status of AR I would love to see them make a return to London.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:25 am

Honestly, I don't understand this strategy.
The places where Norwegian should be able to get more hub pax are OSL, ARN and CPH I guess.
In CPH and ARN is exactly where they basically get rid off the most of the long haul plan. Why would you do that?
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:15 am

a350lover wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand this strategy.
The places where Norwegian should be able to get more hub pax are OSL, ARN and CPH I guess.
In CPH and ARN is exactly where they basically get rid off the most of the long haul plan. Why would you do that?


As with any network, it’s likely the simple fact they can’t get the numbers to stack up and have other opportunities that can try and bring better results.

In a position that they are in, they need to stem losses so it’s a necessity to make significant changes.

We will see if they haven’t loaded some flights yet, but making adjustments to the network should be no surprise.
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:44 am

Scandinavia is just too small.
Despite airport supporting populists or airport catchment area promotions, none of the Nordic Capitals is big enough to sustain any significant amount of Long-haul O&D traffic without feed.
Finnair is providing Helsinki connectivity far beyond it’s market size, and same with Copenhagen benefiting from SAS, consolidating passengers from all of northern Europe.
History has proven that a STAR connected airline is usually needed to successfully connect any long-haul routes out of Scandinavia, and one world connectivity out of HEL.
With few exemptions, all other attempts have failed.
Stockholm, Helsinki, Copenhagen or Oslo is not big enough without a very attractive feeder network.
If Norwegian are to succeed with their long-haul operations, they need to consolidate and build connectivity through their feeder network, selecting one Nordic hub, not 4.
 
planesarecool
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:24 am

They haven’t released the full summer schedule yet. They likely won’t release the full summer schedule until they know how many 787s (or rather, how many RR engines) are going to be available to them.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:17 am

a350lover wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand this strategy.
The places where Norwegian should be able to get more hub pax are OSL, ARN and CPH I guess.
In CPH and ARN is exactly where they basically get rid off the most of the long haul plan. Why would you do that?


The reason may be that connecting traffic is not profitable. Demand from the United States to London, Paris, Rome and Barcelona is higher among vacation travelers. There isn’t enough demand from the Scandinavian capitals.

Norwegian has done a fantastic job capturing flights for the cruise ship demand for example out of Rome and Barcelona, which is limited out of OSL, ARN and CPH.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:17 pm

a350lover wrote:
Analyzing Norwegian future network available for bookings in the coming months I see quite a few routes no longer operating:

ARN-FLL: last flight 04/11. Not resuming?
ARN-JFK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
ARN-LAX: last flight 24/10. Not resuming?
ARN-OAK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming? Doesn't look like moving to SFO.
Only route through W19-20 BKK & KBV
ARN-BKK: 1x/w from April 2020. Selling all departures at 714€ one way.

CPH-FLL: last flight 24/10. Not resuming?
CPH-JFK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
CPH-OAK last flight 26/10. Not resuming?
CPH-LAX: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
Only route through W19-20 BKK & KBV
CPH-BKK 1x/w from April 2020. Selling all departures at 953€ one way.

Other routes which aren't selling after OCT19 (aren't selling for summer 2020 either):

BCN-ORD
LGW-ORD
FCO-LAX
BCN-FLL
MAD-BOS
MAD-LAX

None of the South American routes available after MAR20:

LGW-EZE
LGW-GIG

Does this looks like a reasonable downsize of its operations?
Do you think they will put on sale these and other (new) routes?
Do they allow the time needed to mature the markets where they deploy offer?



... Where to start? This post seems a bit sensationalized. Most of this has been previously posted and or announced, but I'm happy to help point you in the right direction.

First. With all due respect and no offense meant, I would ask - as most of us would, that anyone posting a new topic please do some research before posting. It took me about ten minutes to find the information you requested/posted about. For anyone else, An easy way to search for airline information is to google the airline name and "media" to find out what they have announced, or find a link to their "News Room" - but also, use the search feature here on airliners.net

Some of this has been previously announced/posted and discussed at length here on airliners.net as well
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1415715&p=21099925&hilit=Norwegian#p21099925

Norwegian announced in early June that due to the ongoing engine issues with RR that they would discontinue a number of routes over the slow winter season to accelerate thier engine updates and repairs for spring and summer 2020.

"The following routes will be summer only from winter 2019/2020:
· CPH-FLL
· CPH-JFK
· CPH-LAX
· ARN-JFK
· ARN-MCO
· OSL-LAX
· OSL-MCO
Additionally, the LGW - LAS route will be discontinued.
"Unfortunately, the challenges we are experiencing with the engines on our Dreamliners has added to the complexity of our network planning, but we are doing our best to mitigate the effects, adding more contingency into the network to avoid costly wet-leases which adversely impact both our brand and passenger experience," says Matthew Robert Wood."


In regards to JFK-Scandi, the apparent decision was made to reduce the weekly flights to CPH/ARN and instead increase to 5-6 weekly flights to OSL instead using it as a focus connecting point. Other routes may have had something similar put into effect.

In regards to routes such as
BCN-ORD
LGW-ORD
FCO-LAX
BCN-FLL
MAD-BOS
MAD-LAX

Most of these along with routes like LGW-SEA were announced as seasonal when they started, or already announced as being changed to seasonal at some point.

LAS-LGW/Scandi routes were all previously announced as discontinued.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425949&p=21476719&hilit=Norwegian#p21476719

Please keep in mind that Norwegian only has a handful of Long Haul routes that operate DAILY.
Most of their flights operate on a weekly basis, some routes like MCO-CDG for example only operated once or twice a week depending on the season.
So, a weekly route being cut, isn't as drastic as say if Delta were to discontinue LGA-RDU which has almost hourly service every day.

In regards to OAK routes going to SFO, the only routes I was aware that were moved over to SFO as well were LGW when it was announced, and then later CDG, although others could have been too, as I was under the assuming that FCO was being moved as well, but it seems that route was announced as going to seasonal as well.

In terms of what's available for booking after Mar20, most airlines put "holders" in place or just continued the current loaded schedule out, but most airlines, Norwegian included only load their schedules 120 days or so out. Final schedules can be loaded up to 60 days out (or shorter when having fleet or crew issues). It's been my understanding that Norwegian isn't expected to have ALL their 787s fixed till around this time, so that's most likely why they haven't loaded those schedules yet. While they'll likely have a large number of 787s back up and running, but may need to wait till a closer date to plan it better.

Hope that helps.
*edited for href links and spelling!
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
Scandinavia is just too small.
Despite airport supporting populists or airport catchment area promotions, none of the Nordic Capitals is big enough to sustain any significant amount of Long-haul O&D traffic without feed.
Finnair is providing Helsinki connectivity far beyond it’s market size, and same with Copenhagen benefiting from SAS, consolidating passengers from all of northern Europe.
History has proven that a STAR connected airline is usually needed to successfully connect any long-haul routes out of Scandinavia, and one world connectivity out of HEL.
With few exemptions, all other attempts have failed.
Stockholm, Helsinki, Copenhagen or Oslo is not big enough without a very attractive feeder network.
If Norwegian are to succeed with their long-haul operations, they need to consolidate and build connectivity through their feeder network, selecting one Nordic hub, not 4.


It has nothing to do with any of this. Norwegian is grounding at least 12 aircraft over the winter because of engine cycles reaching their limit and they need to be overhauled. This will be done during the winter which is low season.

Next year, Norwegian will be back at full speed out of Scandinavia or at least that’s the plan
 
dcajet
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:43 pm

a350lover wrote:

None of the South American routes available after MAR20:

LGW-EZE
LGW-GIG


Both routes are loaded through March 28th. They have not loaded completely their summer schedule yet pending final 787 availability next year. Sources from Norwegian Argentina say both EZE & GIG flights are not going anywhere. Only change is EZE going from daily to 5x w for some periods of the winter schedule due to 787 availability. It should remain at 5x w during most 2020 except for periods of high demand to/fr Argentina (Holidays, Easter, etc.)
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:49 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
Scandinavia is just too small.
Despite airport supporting populists or airport catchment area promotions, none of the Nordic Capitals is big enough to sustain any significant amount of Long-haul O&D traffic without feed.
Finnair is providing Helsinki connectivity far beyond it’s market size, and same with Copenhagen benefiting from SAS, consolidating passengers from all of northern Europe.
History has proven that a STAR connected airline is usually needed to successfully connect any long-haul routes out of Scandinavia, and one world connectivity out of HEL.
With few exemptions, all other attempts have failed.
Stockholm, Helsinki, Copenhagen or Oslo is not big enough without a very attractive feeder network.
If Norwegian are to succeed with their long-haul operations, they need to consolidate and build connectivity through their feeder network, selecting one Nordic hub, not 4.


It has nothing to do with any of this. Norwegian is grounding at least 12 aircraft over the winter because of engine cycles reaching their limit and they need to be overhauled. This will be done during the winter which is low season.

Next year, Norwegian will be back at full speed out of Scandinavia or at least that’s the plan


I’m always thrilled to see people believing they have hidden microphones at the airline board rooms.

Sorry, but there is nothing indicating that Norwegian will be back at full speed with 3 intercontinental hubs in Scandinavia next year!
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:15 am

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
Scandinavia is just too small.
Despite airport supporting populists or airport catchment area promotions, none of the Nordic Capitals is big enough to sustain any significant amount of Long-haul O&D traffic without feed.
Finnair is providing Helsinki connectivity far beyond it’s market size, and same with Copenhagen benefiting from SAS, consolidating passengers from all of northern Europe.
History has proven that a STAR connected airline is usually needed to successfully connect any long-haul routes out of Scandinavia, and one world connectivity out of HEL.
With few exemptions, all other attempts have failed.
Stockholm, Helsinki, Copenhagen or Oslo is not big enough without a very attractive feeder network.
If Norwegian are to succeed with their long-haul operations, they need to consolidate and build connectivity through their feeder network, selecting one Nordic hub, not 4.


It has nothing to do with any of this. Norwegian is grounding at least 12 aircraft over the winter because of engine cycles reaching their limit and they need to be overhauled. This will be done during the winter which is low season.

Next year, Norwegian will be back at full speed out of Scandinavia or at least that’s the plan


I’m always thrilled to see people believing they have hidden microphones at the airline board rooms.

Sorry, but there is nothing indicating that Norwegian will be back at full speed with 3 intercontinental hubs in Scandinavia next year!


What are you talking about? I had a personal conversation with the chief RR engineer in Oslo about this.
I am always thrilled when people make assumptions based on no facts whatsoever.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:36 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
a350lover wrote:
In regards to OAK routes going to SFO, the only routes I was aware that were moved over to SFO as well were LGW when it was announced, and then later CDG, although others could have been too, as I was under the assuming that FCO was being moved as well, but it seems that route was announced as going to seasonal as well.

LGW was moved some time ago, but Norweigan has since announced that all year-round OAK flights would relocated to SFO(perhaps some seasonal, as well), but at least some, if not all, of the seasonal routes were supposed to stay in OAK last I'd heard. Essentially, OAK was to be a summer only destination by next summer.
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:22 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

It has nothing to do with any of this. Norwegian is grounding at least 12 aircraft over the winter because of engine cycles reaching their limit and they need to be overhauled. This will be done during the winter which is low season.

Next year, Norwegian will be back at full speed out of Scandinavia or at least that’s the plan


I’m always thrilled to see people believing they have hidden microphones at the airline board rooms.

Sorry, but there is nothing indicating that Norwegian will be back at full speed with 3 intercontinental hubs in Scandinavia next year!


What are you talking about? I had a personal conversation with the chief RR engineer in Oslo about this.
I am always thrilled when people make assumptions based on no facts whatsoever.



So you seriously suggest that a RR engineer has first hand info about Norwegians summer program plans from Scandinavia and if the airline plans to consolidate or not?

You must be joking right?
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:23 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:

I’m always thrilled to see people believing they have hidden microphones at the airline board rooms.

Sorry, but there is nothing indicating that Norwegian will be back at full speed with 3 intercontinental hubs in Scandinavia next year!


What are you talking about? I had a personal conversation with the chief RR engineer in Oslo about this.
I am always thrilled when people make assumptions based on no facts whatsoever.



So you seriously suggest that a RR engineer has first hand info about Norwegians summer program plans from Scandinavia and if the airline plans to consolidate or not?


No, I know that for a fact. That part of the info I wrote is widely known amongst employees in Norwegian. Why are you so aggressive towards a random stranger you don't know?
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:22 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

What are you talking about? I had a personal conversation with the chief RR engineer in Oslo about this.
I am always thrilled when people make assumptions based on no facts whatsoever.



So you seriously suggest that a RR engineer has first hand info about Norwegians summer program plans from Scandinavia and if the airline plans to consolidate or not?


No, I know that for a fact. That part of the info I wrote is widely known amongst employees in Norwegian. Why are you so aggressive towards a random stranger you don't know?


Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.
 
royroy
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:30 pm

it is purely to do with Maintenance why the UK flights have been pulled, once the engines are checked and ok the UK network will be expanded again, it is doing very well apparently from LGW
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:44 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:


So you seriously suggest that a RR engineer has first hand info about Norwegians summer program plans from Scandinavia and if the airline plans to consolidate or not?


No, I know that for a fact. That part of the info I wrote is widely known amongst employees in Norwegian. Why are you so aggressive towards a random stranger you don't know?


Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.


No point in debating with you, when I already told you the facts. Next spring, Norwegian will need an additional 120 787 pilots in their CPH base as written internally in the company news. Have a nice day.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:04 pm

Do they still have a crew base in BKK? Frankly without it I don't think they'd be flying BKK at all since they're regularly undercut by the ME3.
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:07 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Do they still have a crew base in BKK? Frankly without it I don't think they'd be flying BKK at all since they're regularly undercut by the ME3.


Yes they do. They wanted to close it earlier this year, but employees there threatened to then leave the company (many instructors based there) and so the base remains for now.
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:24 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

No, I know that for a fact. That part of the info I wrote is widely known amongst employees in Norwegian. Why are you so aggressive towards a random stranger you don't know?


Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.


No point in debating with you, when I already told you the facts. Next spring, Norwegian will need an additional 120 787 pilots in their CPH base as written internally in the company news. Have a nice day.


You are aware that there is currently no ARN or OSL base for Norwegians 787 pilots? Are you also aware that the pilot base in Copenhagen at the moment serves all of Scandinavia, regardless of ARN/CPH/OSL?
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:28 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:

Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.


No point in debating with you, when I already told you the facts. Next spring, Norwegian will need an additional 120 787 pilots in their CPH base as written internally in the company news. Have a nice day.


You are aware that there is currently no ARN or OSL base for Norwegians 787 pilots? Are you also aware that the pilot base in Copenhagen serves all of Scandinavia?


Haha well aware. What's your point? Are you aware that the CPH base also regularly serves BCN and MAD too?
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:36 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

No point in debating with you, when I already told you the facts. Next spring, Norwegian will need an additional 120 787 pilots in their CPH base as written internally in the company news. Have a nice day.


You are aware that there is currently no ARN or OSL base for Norwegians 787 pilots? Are you also aware that the pilot base in Copenhagen serves all of Scandinavia?


Haha well aware. What's your point? Are you aware that the CPH base also regularly serves BCN and MAD too?


So do the math....
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:59 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:

You are aware that there is currently no ARN or OSL base for Norwegians 787 pilots? Are you also aware that the pilot base in Copenhagen serves all of Scandinavia?


Haha well aware. What's your point? Are you aware that the CPH base also regularly serves BCN and MAD too?


So do the math....


I already told you the facts.
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:26 pm

Latest:

ARN/CPH to BKK only premium class available for s20 (usually a sign of closure).
No US routes uploaded from ARN/CPH.

OSL to LAX, MCO, FLL, JFK, OAK now all available for booking s20.
Apparently increasing FLL and OAK according to the Norwegian press release.
Looking at the program, there are some gaps indicating that there is more to come from OSL.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:56 pm

Rumours at Norwegian indicanting they may be considering the closure of the BKK base. The fact that they only sell the Premium Fares isn’t a good sign.

The movement towards OSL in Scandinavia is very interesting in my opinion. They finally behave like a traditional player and concentrate in hubs (OSL, LGW, BCN...)
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:02 am

Here is a link to the summary of the Norwegian moves done by RoutesOnline:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... of-11oct19

Several routes downgrade from 789 to 788. Norwegian only received the little version of 787s (-8) at first. These are currently being used for the Thai routes, year round to BKK, winter only to KBV. Considering some EU-USA routes move to -8 accordingy to the info provided by Routesonline the DY BKK base does not look good;(
 
SKAirbus
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:42 am

The Dreamliner has been a disaster for Norwegian right from the get go in 2013. I'm surprised they haven't been tempted to just dump them.
Base: BRU
 
Ferryflight
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:41 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

Haha well aware. What's your point? Are you aware that the CPH base also regularly serves BCN and MAD too?


So do the math....


I already told you the facts.


Norwegian today confirms the closure of all intercontinental 787 flights from Copenhagen and Stockholm. Only Oslo will be kept.

https://check-in.dk/norwegian-stopper-l ... r-fra-cph/
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:45 am

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:

So do the math....


I already told you the facts.


Norwegian today confirms the closure of all intercontinental 787 flights from Copenhagen and Stockholm. Only Oslo will be kept.

https://check-in.dk/norwegian-stopper-l ... r-fra-cph/

Sad news for ARN and CPH. This indicates that Norwegian witnessed losses (or too low profits) on its ARN and CPH routes. DY will probably move the capacity to higher-yielding routes from Paris, Rome, London etc. which, however, would be a good move at the moment.
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lesfalls
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:39 am

QuawerAir wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

I already told you the facts.


Norwegian today confirms the closure of all intercontinental 787 flights from Copenhagen and Stockholm. Only Oslo will be kept.

https://check-in.dk/norwegian-stopper-l ... r-fra-cph/

Sad news for ARN and CPH. This indicates that Norwegian witnessed losses (or too low profits) on its ARN and CPH routes. DY will probably move the capacity to higher-yielding routes from Paris, Rome, London etc. which, however, would be a good move at the moment.

With Scandinavia being generally more expensive then Longon, Paris or Rome, wouldn't it actually be the exact opposite?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:53 am

It’s a good idea to centralise ops in Oslo really, and likely further consolidations where it can across the network.

Having long haul flights from all over Europe created operational challenges and extra costs, so some work to provide a network structured around a few key cities for them likely will bring better results.
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:41 pm

Wonder if they just dump (most of) their 787s soon OR something is going on and they will be taken over by one of the big players in Europe soon? LH Group?
 
bhxalex
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:58 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
Wonder if they just dump (most of) their 787s soon OR something is going on and they will be taken over by one of the big players in Europe soon? LH Group?


They're doing well at LGW and have had to use a variety of leased aircraft to cover capacity during the engine issues, nothing to suggest the 787s lost at ARN & CPH couldn't be deployed elsewhere.

LGW-MEX/BOG/JNB wouldn't surprise me as there's plenty of demand but extortionate fares from existing carriers, especially to South America. From what I gather LGW-GIG/EZE haven't been unsuccessful.

Would be good to see them expand the OSL network too, with maybe 4-6 Widebody flights daily spread between NYC/ORD/BOS/LAX/SFO/FLL/YYZ, with properly timed connections to Scandinavia they could kick SAS out of NA market at OSL, and give them serious competition out of CPH by avoiding the backtrack from a lot of markets.
Last edited by bhxalex on Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Blerg
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:01 pm

They should open a base in ATH, there seems to be a growing demand for intercontinental travel. They also seem to be quite successful with their JFK flights.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:03 pm

lesfalls wrote:
With Scandinavia being generally more expensive then Longon, Paris or Rome, wouldn't it actually be the exact opposite?


If you can point to a peer-reviewed study that shows yields are determined by local cost of living, not competition, please do.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:20 pm

So Norwegian dumping 2/3 of the core Scandi markets from Long Haul is somehow a good thing? It shows they can't compete in a high cost market which was screaming for a better option and yet somehow they'll win by going head to head with BA/IAG out of London?
 
CALMSP
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:43 pm

skipness1E wrote:
So Norwegian dumping 2/3 of the core Scandi markets from Long Haul is somehow a good thing? It shows they can't compete in a high cost market which was screaming for a better option and yet somehow they'll win by going head to head with BA/IAG out of London?


Win or do better? Either way, they'll do much better on longhaul from the main cities that they are shifting to. They target the tourist crowd, and tourists simply do not flock to the likes of CPH or ARN to the levels of LGW/CDG/MAD.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:01 pm

I am afraid Norwegian has to soon give up the long haul market compleately to save the company from going bust.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:51 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
Wonder if they just dump (most of) their 787s soon OR something is going on and they will be taken over by one of the big players in Europe soon? LH Group?

Their owned 787s is for sale but it's not easy to find buyers. Those 787s seatings fit for only few airlines and replacing is very expensive.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:58 pm

Great news for SAS.

But now long haul from CPH and ARN will increase in price. OSL prices will stay competitive.
 
Northpole
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:36 pm

Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:


So you seriously suggest that a RR engineer has first hand info about Norwegians summer program plans from Scandinavia and if the airline plans to consolidate or not?


No, I know that for a fact. That part of the info I wrote is widely known amongst employees in Norwegian. Why are you so aggressive towards a random stranger you don't know?


Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.


Ferryflight > Good analyse made appprox 1 month ago :)
 
malev2012
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:02 pm

CALMSP wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
So Norwegian dumping 2/3 of the core Scandi markets from Long Haul is somehow a good thing? It shows they can't compete in a high cost market which was screaming for a better option and yet somehow they'll win by going head to head with BA/IAG out of London?


Win or do better? Either way, they'll do much better on longhaul from the main cities that they are shifting to. They target the tourist crowd, and tourists simply do not flock to the likes of CPH or ARN to the levels of LGW/CDG/MAD.


Yes this, leisure travelers are going to BCN/LGW/CDG not CPH or ARN. I doubt they were getting much feed from connections anyways. The O&D in these markets are sufficient.
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Oykie
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:10 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
I am afraid Norwegian has to soon give up the long haul market compleately to save the company from going bust.


According to Norwegian - U.S. is their biggest single marked. With greater yield pr passenger than Norway.

My source for this is this Norwegian article. https://e24.no/boers-og-finans/i/RRnOEr ... koebenhavn

So I believe they will stay in the Long haul marked for now.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
Someone83
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:22 pm

Oykie wrote:
According to Norwegian - U.S. is their biggest single marked. With greater yield pr passenger than Norway.


Revenue, not yield ;)
 
Oykie
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Oykie wrote:
According to Norwegian - U.S. is their biggest single marked. With greater yield pr passenger than Norway.


Revenue, not yield ;)


Oh, sorry. I got the translation wrong... :-D An important correction, thank you :-D
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:17 pm

Northpole wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

No, I know that for a fact. That part of the info I wrote is widely known amongst employees in Norwegian. Why are you so aggressive towards a random stranger you don't know?


Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.


Ferryflight > Good analyse made appprox 1 month ago :)


Or a lucky guess. One month ago there were things they didn’t even know themselves which they are now aware of today. For example the exact amount of aircraft grounded due to engine problems and that they plan to keep an additional five aircraft on the ground as spare planes to avoid expensive wetlease substitutes. That was not decided one month ago.

Sorry to disappoint you and I hope I could add a little extra info that you weren’t aware of.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:29 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
a350lover wrote:
Analyzing Norwegian future network available for bookings in the coming months I see quite a few routes no longer operating:

ARN-FLL: last flight 04/11. Not resuming?
ARN-JFK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
ARN-LAX: last flight 24/10. Not resuming?
ARN-OAK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming? Doesn't look like moving to SFO.
Only route through W19-20 BKK & KBV
ARN-BKK: 1x/w from April 2020. Selling all departures at 714€ one way.

CPH-FLL: last flight 24/10. Not resuming?
CPH-JFK: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
CPH-OAK last flight 26/10. Not resuming?
CPH-LAX: last flight 25/10. Not resuming?
Only route through W19-20 BKK & KBV
CPH-BKK 1x/w from April 2020. Selling all departures at 953€ one way.

Other routes which aren't selling after OCT19 (aren't selling for summer 2020 either):

BCN-ORD
LGW-ORD
FCO-LAX
BCN-FLL
MAD-BOS
MAD-LAX

None of the South American routes available after MAR20:

LGW-EZE
LGW-GIG

Does this looks like a reasonable downsize of its operations?
Do you think they will put on sale these and other (new) routes?
Do they allow the time needed to mature the markets where they deploy offer?



... Where to start? This post seems a bit sensationalized. Most of this has been previously posted and or announced, but I'm happy to help point you in the right direction.

First. With all due respect and no offense meant, I would ask - as most of us would, that anyone posting a new topic please do some research before posting. It took me about ten minutes to find the information you requested/posted about. For anyone else, An easy way to search for airline information is to google the airline name and "media" to find out what they have announced, or find a link to their "News Room" - but also, use the search feature here on airliners.net

Some of this has been previously announced/posted and discussed at length here on airliners.net as well
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1415715&p=21099925&hilit=Norwegian#p21099925

Norwegian announced in early June that due to the ongoing engine issues with RR that they would discontinue a number of routes over the slow winter season to accelerate thier engine updates and repairs for spring and summer 2020.

"The following routes will be summer only from winter 2019/2020:
· CPH-FLL
· CPH-JFK
· CPH-LAX
· ARN-JFK
· ARN-MCO
· OSL-LAX
· OSL-MCO
Additionally, the LGW - LAS route will be discontinued.
"Unfortunately, the challenges we are experiencing with the engines on our Dreamliners has added to the complexity of our network planning, but we are doing our best to mitigate the effects, adding more contingency into the network to avoid costly wet-leases which adversely impact both our brand and passenger experience," says Matthew Robert Wood."


In regards to JFK-Scandi, the apparent decision was made to reduce the weekly flights to CPH/ARN and instead increase to 5-6 weekly flights to OSL instead using it as a focus connecting point. Other routes may have had something similar put into effect.

In regards to routes such as
BCN-ORD
LGW-ORD
FCO-LAX
BCN-FLL
MAD-BOS
MAD-LAX

Most of these along with routes like LGW-SEA were announced as seasonal when they started, or already announced as being changed to seasonal at some point.

LAS-LGW/Scandi routes were all previously announced as discontinued.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425949&p=21476719&hilit=Norwegian#p21476719

Please keep in mind that Norwegian only has a handful of Long Haul routes that operate DAILY.
Most of their flights operate on a weekly basis, some routes like MCO-CDG for example only operated once or twice a week depending on the season.
So, a weekly route being cut, isn't as drastic as say if Delta were to discontinue LGA-RDU which has almost hourly service every day.

In regards to OAK routes going to SFO, the only routes I was aware that were moved over to SFO as well were LGW when it was announced, and then later CDG, although others could have been too, as I was under the assuming that FCO was being moved as well, but it seems that route was announced as going to seasonal as well.

In terms of what's available for booking after Mar20, most airlines put "holders" in place or just continued the current loaded schedule out, but most airlines, Norwegian included only load their schedules 120 days or so out. Final schedules can be loaded up to 60 days out (or shorter when having fleet or crew issues). It's been my understanding that Norwegian isn't expected to have ALL their 787s fixed till around this time, so that's most likely why they haven't loaded those schedules yet. While they'll likely have a large number of 787s back up and running, but may need to wait till a closer date to plan it better.

Hope that helps.
*edited for href links and spelling!


SEA-LGW was year-round the first year of service.
 
Northpole
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Re: Norwegian LH in ARN and CPH just to Thailand after OCT19?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:41 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Northpole wrote:
Ferryflight wrote:

Because a decision to reduce Scandinavia operations cannot be excused by fleet maintenance.

Completely shutting down US operations temporary is too costly given the investment behind the ARN/CPH/OSL operations.

Scandinavia is a dead end regardless of how you flip the arguments. Norwegian needs to consolidate in order to survive and provide feed. Flying another summer from 3 capitals on low frequencies will only accelerate their economical issues.

And because route network, market development and aircraft usage is highly sensitive information, affecting the value of the airline, no such information will never be released to internal staff outside the route office until it’s finalized and available to the public. At least not RR employees.

With only 5,5 months left to the summer season, Norwegian would have started selling tickets from CPH/ARN to the US if they really had the intentions to fly!

With uncertainty with slots or frequencies, they would still have sold tickets for then to change or consolidate bookings.

Norwegian is not going to fly US routes from Copenhagen or Stockholm for the summer 2020 season as they did in the past. The only door open is probably from Oslo where they have bookings available for the summer 2020 season to several US destinations.


Ferryflight > Good analyse made appprox 1 month ago :)


Or a lucky guess. One month ago there were things they didn’t even know themselves which they are now aware of today. For example the exact amount of aircraft grounded due to engine problems and that they plan to keep an additional five aircraft on the ground as spare planes to avoid expensive wetlease substitutes. That was not decided one month ago.

Sorry to disappoint you and I hope I could add a little extra info that you weren’t aware of.


Sorry but I do not allow you... You stated above that Norwegian would be back in "full swing " within shortly - Ferryflight made some arguments as to why not - seems that he was right and You were wrong. Lucky guess or not - it is now a fact - I am not disappointed at all - the only thing that disappoints me is the fact that Norwegian seems to be in deep trouble. I would even be prepared to say they were only working on " dressing up the bride " and looking good externally in order to be bought by a larger player... " don't count passengers - count money " - regardless of that, I am of the opinion that we should have a good , open and correct tone against each other here on a net. Sure you agree.
 
Northpole
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Re: Norwegian to end all longhaul services from CPH and ARN

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:42 pm

"follow you " - sorry

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