Agadir is interesting. Flights from the UK to Agadir normally fly over Portugal so the chance to stopover in Lisbon would be nice as I don't like long flights. Plus Lisbon is good for connections to South America, particularly Brazil.

Those flights look extremely focused on tourists from Northern Europe.

I am surprised TAP doesn’t try EZE or MEX.

As for OPO, if Montijo ever opens I expect TAP to close their hub there.

SCQ83 wrote:

Those flights look extremely focused on tourists from Northern Europe.

I am surprised TAP doesn’t try EZE or MEX.

As for OPO, if Montijo ever opens I expect TAP to close their hub there.

well closing HEL in winter is not good for northern Europe. of course they codeshare with finnair.

LIM? Nice, which aircraft type are they planning on this route? The A332?

A388

A388 wrote:

LIM? Nice, which aircraft type are they planning on this route? The A332?

A388

The A339 is more likely

They should launch, MEX, LAX, CUN and EZE.

I find it hard to believe that TP would launch CPT before JNB!?!?

Good additions. Hope they do well for TP.

SCQ83 wrote:

As for OPO, if Montijo ever opens I expect TAP to close their hub there.

I'm wondering about that: from Europe, many people want to go to northern Portugal, either VFR or tourists. Having direct flights to OPO gives TP an advantage over concurence in many airports that wouldn't have those flights (ie, any airport besides a few of the largest hubs in Europe) if they abandon this hub.

qm001 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that TP would launch CPT before JNB!?!?

They're frequently after secondary markets where they can find a niche.
And, Isn't there a Portuguese population in the Cape region?

Toinou wrote:

And, Isn't there a Portuguese population in the Cape region?

Correct. Quite sizable population.

Brunopt wrote:

The rumors are,

New routes from Lisbon:
Cancun (CUN)
Orlando (MCO)
Lima (LIM)
Cape Town (CPT)
Beirut (BEY)
Agadir (AGA)

Cancelled during winter time:
Helsinki (HEL)
Naples (NAP)
Nantes (NTE)

New route from Porto
Sal (SID)

Cancelled year round from Porto:
Brussels
Munich

TP can't even make Brussels and Munich, two large Star Alliance hubs, work out of Porto? With the massive growth OPO has seen? It's like they don't even try to be competitive in that market...

Where are they going to get the slots in LIS from, for the new routes? And what will the frequency of the new long-haul flights be? Basically, whenever something inevitably loses their connecting flight at LIS because of the clusterfuck that connecting at that airport is, how many days will they have to stay on the ground while they await for the next flight?

peterinlisbon wrote:

Agadir is interesting. Flights from the UK to Agadir normally fly over Portugal so the chance to stopover in Lisbon would be nice as I don't like long flights. Plus Lisbon is good for connections to South America, particularly Brazil.

You do know why TP introduced Portugal Stopover, right? Because any connection in LIS less than 24 hours long and you are almost guaranteed to lose your onwards flight.

Any reason why TP hasn’t considered PDL-EWR or even LIS-PHL? Right now it seems like AA is having a field day on that route since it is almost year round now.

Thoise rumours are a non-sense,

LIM ahead of BOG or EZE?
CPT ahead of JNB?
MCO and CUN ahead of MEX or LAX or IAH?

Wil believe it when see it

Nicknuzzii wrote:

Any reason why TP hasn’t considered PDL-EWR or even LIS-PHL? Right now it seems like AA is having a field day on that route since it is almost year round now.

Regarding PDL, TAP has already announced PDL-BOS starting on June 4

All those are leisure-heavy markets, so it makes sense from that point of view. BEY is the exception, but Beirut will help filling seats to the US and specially Canada (TAP's newest destinations).

In any case TAP seems like a high-speed train heading towards a concrete wall. They lose a lot of money in a good economy. What will happen whenever there is a downturn? EVERY TIME I check any flight out of MAD, EVERY other destination that is flown by TAP, they ALWAYS undercut other competitors' fares (even if it is a low-cost carrier). For SCQ's new route, it is the same. Pretty much everywhere you check, TAP comes always as the cheapest. From a customer point of view, TAP is too good to be true. And this kind of things cannot last forever .

Pyrex wrote:

Brunopt wrote:

The rumors are,

New routes from Lisbon:
Cancun (CUN)
Orlando (MCO)
Lima (LIM)
Cape Town (CPT)
Beirut (BEY)
Agadir (AGA)

Cancelled during winter time:
Helsinki (HEL)
Naples (NAP)
Nantes (NTE)

New route from Porto
Sal (SID)

Cancelled year round from Porto:
Brussels
Munich

TP can't even make Brussels and Munich, two large Star Alliance hubs, work out of Porto? With the massive growth OPO has seen? It's like they don't even try to be competitive in that market...

Where are they going to get the slots in LIS from, for the new routes? And what will the frequency of the new long-haul flights be? Basically, whenever something inevitably loses their connecting flight at LIS because of the clusterfuck that connecting at that airport is, how many days will they have to stay on the ground while they await for the next flight?

peterinlisbon wrote:

Agadir is interesting. Flights from the UK to Agadir normally fly over Portugal so the chance to stopover in Lisbon would be nice as I don't like long flights. Plus Lisbon is good for connections to South America, particularly Brazil.

You do know why TP introduced Portugal Stopover, right? Because any connection in LIS less than 24 hours long and you are almost guaranteed to lose your onwards flight.

Well, if they want to give me a free hotel room that's fine by me.

aldrigsomandre wrote:

Toinou wrote:

And, Isn't there a Portuguese population in the Cape region?

Correct. Quite sizable population.

Yes, maybe there is...but there's an even bigger community in the north around JNB.

However, if it's leisurely focused and more on offering connections to the rest of Europe and even North America, then CPT maybe might make more sense.

peterinlisbon wrote:

Agadir is interesting. Flights from the UK to Agadir normally fly over Portugal so the chance to stopover in Lisbon would be nice as I don't like long flights.

You prefer a 2,5 hour flight, a stopover in Lisbon, and a 1,5 hour flight over a nonstop 3,5 hour flight? Because you don't like long flights?

MartijnNL wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

Agadir is interesting. Flights from the UK to Agadir normally fly over Portugal so the chance to stopover in Lisbon would be nice as I don't like long flights.

You prefer a 2,5 hour flight, a stopover in Lisbon, and a 1,5 hour flight over a nonstop 3,5 hour flight? Because you don't like long flights?

I wonder what is the Lisbon-Agadir PDEW. One?

I'm wondering if TP could make flights to Central America work. PTY or SAL would come to mind as they also offer Star Alliance connectivity with CM and AV.

Also studying again, (like some years ago but "frozen"), economical viability for Nouackchott, Cairo and Addis Abeba.,,according some rumours inside.

Thinking about CUN, I just wonder if they plan to get agreements with travel agencies, for instance in Spain.

Since TAP flies to MAD, BCN, AGP, SVQ, ALC, VLC, BIO, SCQ, LPA, it would be easy for them to arrange 1-stop options via LIS. MAD-CUN is very "charterized" meaning that people from other cities might need to go by train/car/bus to MAD.

For instance those last few winters there had been SCQ-Cabo Verde charters. For next winter, with the new route, those charters will disappear as they will just buy seats on SCQ-LIS-Cabo Verde.

This is not very different to what Turkish makes in Western markets, for instance connecting tourists to Central or South Asia. TAP has really became the Turkish of the Atlantic. They fly anywhere no matter weak links with Portugal/Turkey and they sell tickets for peanuts.

MartijnNL wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

Agadir is interesting. Flights from the UK to Agadir normally fly over Portugal so the chance to stopover in Lisbon would be nice as I don't like long flights.

You prefer a 2,5 hour flight, a stopover in Lisbon, and a 1,5 hour flight over a nonstop 3,5 hour flight? Because you don't like long flights?

Yes, anything over 2 hours is too long, especially when it's Ryanair.

Pyrex wrote:

TP can't even make Brussels and Munich, two large Star Alliance hubs, work out of Porto? With the massive growth OPO has seen? It's like they don't even try to be competitive in that market...

Where are they going to get the slots in LIS from, for the new routes? And what will the frequency of the new long-haul flights be? Basically, whenever something inevitably loses their connecting flight at LIS because of the clusterfuck that connecting at that airport is, how many days will they have to stay on the ground while they await for the next flight?

OPO is a 13M market. That is smaller than ALC not to mention AGP or PMI. And none of those airports is a hub. Even Barcelona with 50 million passengers is roughly a hub (Vueling).

OPO is mostly low-yielding VFR and city-break tourism. Little business. Northern Portugal is one of the poorest regions in Western Europe (e.g. much poorer than Galicia which is far from being a wealthy Spanish region). Ryanair is massive and other low-cost carriers are big (easyJet, Transavia, Vueling). The only reason TAP is there is because it is a semi-public company and LIS is full. Maybe there is not even need to wait for Lisbon's new airport. If there is a major contraction in demand (e.g. coronavirus-induced global recession), TAP just focusing on LIS and leaving OPO altogether would be a real possibility.

peterinlisbon wrote:

Yes, anything over 2 hours is too long, especially when it's Ryanair.

I have never tried Ryanair and have no plans of trying them in the future. I can understand flights over 2 hours with them are too long, from the stories I have heard. My recent 8 hour Lufthansa flight in economy class was perfectly fine.

What happened to ATL I thought they were to add that to their network??

SCQ83 wrote:

Pyrex wrote:

TP can't even make Brussels and Munich, two large Star Alliance hubs, work out of Porto? With the massive growth OPO has seen? It's like they don't even try to be competitive in that market...

Where are they going to get the slots in LIS from, for the new routes? And what will the frequency of the new long-haul flights be? Basically, whenever something inevitably loses their connecting flight at LIS because of the clusterfuck that connecting at that airport is, how many days will they have to stay on the ground while they await for the next flight?

OPO is a 13M market. That is smaller than ALC not to mention AGP or PMI. And none of those airports is a hub. Even Barcelona with 50 million passengers is roughly a hub (Vueling).

OPO is mostly low-yielding VFR and city-break tourism. Little business. Northern Portugal is one of the poorest regions in Western Europe (e.g. much poorer than Galicia which is far from being a wealthy Spanish region). Ryanair is massive and other low-cost carriers are big (easyJet, Transavia, Vueling). The only reason TAP is there is because it is a semi-public company and LIS is full. Maybe there is not even need to wait for Lisbon's new airport. If there is a major contraction in demand (e.g. coronavirus-induced global recession), TAP just focusing on LIS and leaving OPO altogether would be a real possibility.

Again with this bullshit? OPO is mostly a business and (regular-yielding) VFR market, not reliant on stag parties by drunken British and German tourists, like AGP or PMI. The North of Portugal is where all the industry is, it does not rely on tourism or government like Lisbon. Where do you think most of the Mercedes / BMWs / Audis / Volvos in Portugal get sold? That is the kind of spending that drives business traffic. Lufthansa certainly doesn't have any issues in making OPO work.

x1234 wrote:

They should launch, MEX, LAX, CUN and EZE.

Yes those cities look viable

Anyone know how DUB > Lisbon is doing , they started intensively with double daily to catch the growing Ireland>Brazil market , fares tend to be high.... anyone know how the route is doing ?

SCQ83 wrote:

All those are leisure-heavy markets, so it makes sense from that point of view. BEY is the exception, but Beirut will help filling seats to the US and specially Canada (TAP's newest destinations).

In any case TAP seems like a high-speed train heading towards a concrete wall. They lose a lot of money in a good economy. What will happen whenever there is a downturn? EVERY TIME I check any flight out of MAD, EVERY other destination that is flown by TAP, they ALWAYS undercut other competitors' fares (even if it is a low-cost carrier). For SCQ's new route, it is the same. Pretty much everywhere you check, TAP comes always as the cheapest. From a customer point of view, TAP is too good to be true. And this kind of things cannot last forever .

BEY makes perfect sense for feed to São Paulo with its massive Lebanese diaspora . Surprised TP doesn’t feed from BEY already ...

If BEY is timed perfectly to connect with the YUL flight, that arrangement could be very successful.

alexdelzotto wrote:

If BEY is timed perfectly to connect with the YUL flight, that arrangement could be very successful.

Well I've flown Paris-Lisbon-Abidjan twice. All 4 ABJ-LIS legs were less than 1/4 full with virtually all passengers coming/goin from/to Paris. Tickets were a 1/5 of what AF and SS charged for the direct flight. Don't know if I would call that "very successful".

upperdeckfan wrote:

Thoise rumours are a non-sense,

LIM ahead of BOG or EZE?
CPT ahead of JNB?
MCO and CUN ahead of MEX or LAX or IAH?

Wil believe it when see it

If I remember correctly, TP used to serve both BOG and PTY in a triangular route but they stopped it after a few years. Probably wasn't the best strategy to tackle the Colombia market (but BOG height issues) and not that much profitable to use. Now with the A330neo we might have seen more South American flights. I'm absolutely thrilled for the prospect of seeing TP in LIM but if it's BOG or EZE it would still be great for the region and probably a bit more rationale.

x1234 wrote:

They should launch, MEX, LAX, CUN and EZE.

Buenos Aires definitely missing from the Latin portfolio. How about Asia, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore would look nice with those A339's. If LOT from Poland can fly to Asia, why not TAP ?

upperdeckfan wrote:

Thoise rumours are a non-sense,

LIM ahead of BOG or EZE?
CPT ahead of JNB?
MCO and CUN ahead of MEX or LAX or IAH?

Wil believe it when see it

IAH was on the list and nothing hear yet.

In addition to the seven US cities, TAP serves an eighth North American destination in Toronto.

The carrier plans to decide by October on future US expansion, says Neves, noting that the carrier's business plan includes potential service to Houston, Los Angeles and Providence. Additional frequencies to existing destinations are also being considered, he adds.

"We are sure that there are at least five new destinations that we can add in the US in the next five years," says Neves.
from https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/t ... 77.article

Pyrex wrote:

Again with this bullshit? OPO is mostly a business and (regular-yielding) VFR market, not reliant on stag parties by drunken British and German tourists, like AGP or PMI. The North of Portugal is where all the industry is, it does not rely on tourism or government like Lisbon. Where do you think most of the Mercedes / BMWs / Audis / Volvos in Portugal get sold? That is the kind of spending that drives business traffic. Lufthansa certainly doesn't have any issues in making OPO work.

I am realistic. Portugal has one of the largest diasporas in the world. That is what fuels OPO like those drunk Germans fuel PMI very successfully. Everything else is complementary.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/ ... ve-abroad/

20% of Portuguese live abroad. Rates not far from Syria or Bosnia. That is the reality. By comparison less than 5% of Spaniards live outside of Spain https://www.republica.com/2018/03/20/la ... -millones/, a rate which would be comparable to any other Western country. From my experience most of those Portuguese abroad come from the North. Lisbon has the capital-effect and keeps more people. Southern Portugal has the tourism effect so it gives people jobs.

In GDP per capita, Northern Portugal (OPO) again is one of the poorest regions in Western Europe. As I said Galicia is a relatively poor region by Spanish standards, but it ranks already among random regions in France or the UK. Northern Portugal already ranks among Polish or Czech secondary regions. This is where Galicia/Northern Portugal, Madrid/Lisbon fit by comparison with other regions in Europe, and their reference airport:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... ons_by_GDP

Düsseldorf 38,100 EUR (DUS)
Madrid 36,400 EUR (MAD)
West Sweden 35,300 EUR (GOT)
Rhône-Alpes 30,000 EUR (LYS)
Lisboa 29,700 EUR (LIS)
Leipzig 29,000 EUR (LEJ)
Nord-Pas-de-Calais 24,300 EUR (LIL)
Galicia 23,900 EUR (SCQ)
Merseyside 23,700 EUR (LPL)
Pomorskie 19,300 EUR (GDN)
Norte (Portugal) 19,000 EUR (OPO)
Continental Croatia 18,900 EUR (ZAG)

Thibault973 wrote:

alexdelzotto wrote:

If BEY is timed perfectly to connect with the YUL flight, that arrangement could be very successful.

Well I've flown Paris-Lisbon-Abidjan twice. All 4 ABJ-LIS legs were less than 1/4 full with virtually all passengers coming/goin from/to Paris. Tickets were a 1/5 of what AF and SS charged for the direct flight. Don't know if I would call that "very successful".

That is my experience in many TAP flights. Not empty though. But virtually giving away tickets. As I said before, that is great for the customer (myself ) but unsustainable on the medium term for a company.

Canada prices from Europe on TAP are given away for peanuts since those are new destinations and Canada has a lot of competition (all the EU majors, Air Transit, Westjet, now Level, etc.)

I wonder if CPT might be run as a tag on either the Luanda or Maputo flights rather than a nonstop from LIS; KL tags Windhoek to their Luanda flight and Emirates tags Harare onto theirs, so there is some precedent there.

True, for 90 days due to 'safety violations' or something. More likely because they transported Guaido back to Caracas.

jfk777 wrote:

x1234 wrote:

They should launch, MEX, LAX, CUN and EZE.

Buenos Aires definitely missing from the Latin portfolio. How about Asia, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore would look nice with those A339's. If LOT from Poland can fly to Asia, why not TAP ?

TP doesn't fly to Asia due to the same reason LO doesn´t fly to Latin America:

Geographical location

GSP psgr wrote:

I wonder if CPT might be run as a tag on either the Luanda or Maputo flights rather than a nonstop from LIS; KL tags Windhoek to their Luanda flight and Emirates tags Harare onto theirs, so there is some precedent there.

Sorry, I don't see what the precedent is with KL doing AMS-LAD-WDH and EK doing DXB-LUN-HRE...4 different destinations in 4 different countries

marcecar10 wrote:

upperdeckfan wrote:

Thoise rumours are a non-sense,

LIM ahead of BOG or EZE?
CPT ahead of JNB?
MCO and CUN ahead of MEX or LAX or IAH?

Wil believe it when see it

If I remember correctly, TP used to serve both BOG and PTY in a triangular route but they stopped it after a few years. Probably wasn't the best strategy to tackle the Colombia market (but BOG height issues) and not that much profitable to use. Now with the A330neo we might have seen more South American flights. I'm absolutely thrilled for the prospect of seeing TP in LIM but if it's BOG or EZE it would still be great for the region and probably a bit more rationale.

Yes, they did fly to PTY and BOG and it didn't work out then, so why would it work now? I am aware that airlines can return to previously served routes and do well (eg YUL, YYZ) but I still can't see PTY, BOG or LIM working out, unless they are thinking that as IAG has bought UX, there will be room for new competition.

TP don't fly their own metal into CCS, it's opd by EuroAtlantic. (767-300)

upperdeckfan wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

x1234 wrote:

They should launch, MEX, LAX, CUN and EZE.

Buenos Aires definitely missing from the Latin portfolio. How about Asia, Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore would look nice with those A339's. If LOT from Poland can fly to Asia, why not TAP ?

TP doesn't fly to Asia due to the same reason LO doesn´t fly to Latin America:

Geographical location

Exactly, TP like AY, EI and TK have the advantage (or disadvantage) of geographical location. they should actually form their own alliance and could connect basically any airport from Europe with any airport worldwide (with TK with direct flts to Australia and NZ) with a single stop and an almost direct route. TP should concentrate only on Africa and Americas.

Kikko19 wrote:

Exactly, TP like AY, EI and TK have the advantage (or disadvantage) of geographical location. they should actually form their own alliance and could connect basically any airport from Europe with any airport worldwide (with TK with direct flts to Australia and NZ) with a single stop and an almost direct route. TP should concentrate only on Africa and Americas.

I don't understand how it would help them? If they ally with, say, TK to transfer people, those would need to fly XXX-IST-LIS-YYY. So it would be a two-stops journey, which is no better than what most alliances can already offer. And I guess it would be of very limited interest to TK, to which it would offer only a few new destinations.

I think TP should stay in their niche: connect Europe with Portugal, and connect it with the Americas and some parts of Africa.

Toinou wrote:

I don't understand how it would help them? If they ally with, say, TK to transfer people, those would need to fly XXX-IST-LIS-YYY. So it would be a two-stops journey, which is no better than what most alliances can already offer. And I guess it would be of very limited interest to TK, to which it would offer only a few new destinations.

I think TP should stay in their niche: connect Europe with Portugal, and connect it with the Americas and some parts of Africa.

What @Kikko19 suggests is that with Finnair, Aer Lingus, Turkish and TAP you have pretty much the whole planet covered with a single stop to/from Europe.

He is not suggesting Manaos - Lisbon - Istambul - Bangkok.

Oh! Got it now.
But I stand to my position: as AY or EI, they have a market, that is somewhat a niche and I tend to think they should better stay on that market rather that trying to emulate huge players.

One niche market is a huge risk: currencies devalue, dictators come to power, civil wars break and you're gone. They need to diversify their network in order to survive. That doesn't mean expanding to Asia, it means get a slice of other Atlantic markets where they can actually compete.

Still hoping for DEN at some point.

DEN has no Iberian destinations so a star hub at LIS would be a great gateway.

Wednesdayite wrote:

Still hoping for DEN at some point.

DEN has no Iberian destinations so a star hub at LIS would be a great gateway.

Keep hoping but be patient, extremely slim chance to see either UA or TP linking LIS and DEN.

DEN only sustain year-round service to the largest european gateways (LHR and FRA) and even Sky hasn't seen potential for a CDG or AMS link.

Thibault973 wrote:

alexdelzotto wrote:

If BEY is timed perfectly to connect with the YUL flight, that arrangement could be very successful.

Well I've flown Paris-Lisbon-Abidjan twice. All 4 ABJ-LIS legs were less than 1/4 full with virtually all passengers coming/goin from/to Paris. Tickets were a 1/5 of what AF and SS charged for the direct flight. Don't know if I would call that "very successful".

TAP probably doesn't need to carry that many passengers to cover the costs of operating a flight at night with an A320, but 25% load factor can't possibly be covering costs. They have a very extensive network in West Africa. Are they doing well on any route in the region?