TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

RvA · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:49 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Lewton wrote:
airbazar wrote:

I disagree 100% but this is not really the forum for an economics discussion. The Portuguese economy has never been more diversified and more future proof after huge investments have been made in technology and education. Those real estate prices are for foreigners as the Portuguese already own their houses. Portugal has one of the highest home ownership rates in all of Europe.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/246 ... in-europe/
There's a general misconception amongst people who don't know Portugal that the Portuguese are poor. That is not true, they enjoy a superior quality of life than many other people in perceived wealthier nations. The government of Portugal is poor, not the people. Don't confuse the two. Look at the link above. More people own their own houses in Portugal than in Germany for example. That's a sign of wealth and quality of life.
And Portugal is somewhat immune to a Coronavirus outbreak because guess what, It's a warm weather country and it has few ties to China and Asia in general. If anything, a Coronavirus outbreak will make people seek places that are relatively free of the virus and with a good health care system where they feel safer, like Portugal. Portugal and Spain could actually see a huge increase in tourism this year as people avoid vacationing in Asia and decide to stay closer to home. And if you think those Brits living in Algarve are now going to return to the cold and rainy UK because they now have to pay 10% tax which is still lower than in the UK, dream on.

Very well said.
Some people need to find better sources to inform themselves.

Saying that the real estate bubble does not have an impact in Portugal because “all Portuguese are home owners already” is hilarious at best.

Totally. Portugal is not one of the wealthier EU countries. Not the government and not it’s people. Totally nonsensical to even suggest that.

RvA · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:52 am

Just to add, the home owner % in Portugal is higher than Germany this much I also think is true. But Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria all have higher percentages than Germany. That doesn’t mean the average person from those countries has the same purchasing power than someone in Germany.

LXwing · Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:24 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
questions wrote:
Side note, but related.

SAS is S.A.S., not Sas

EVA is E.V.A., not Eva

Is TAP T.A.P., not Tap? Or are people referring to the airline as Air Portugal?

Thanks.

Tap Air Portugal

No, it is TAP Air Portugal (from Transportes Aéreos Portugueses)

Pt56 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:05 pm

The notion that the Portuguese economy would tank if TAP woul disappear is nonsense.

Being the biggest exporter, (mostly only a statistical reality) is kinda irrelevant wen it's also one of the biggest importers. It's does not bring revenue to the state just losses, and from a tourist POV I'm sure that other companies would fill the existing gap in no time...

The only real loss would be job related, specifically in middle management of the company.

Portugal economy is not the best, but it is in a better state than it was.. The housing bubble is really only in some areas of Lisbon and less so in Porto, incomparable in any way to what was and still is the buble in Spain.. (please check stats). Houses in Lisbon are relatively cheep wen in comparison to other European capitals.

On topic again, yes Madrid is by far the biggest player in the peninsula, specialy in the south American countries, but for Brazil that is by far the largest country in that area Portugal is far better connected to it... So it might make sense for a computing alience to acquire TAP to limit AIG domination of the Europe South America hub space..

airbazar · Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:07 pm

RvA wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Lewton wrote:
Very well said.
Some people need to find better sources to inform themselves.

Saying that the real estate bubble does not have an impact in Portugal because “all Portuguese are home owners already” is hilarious at best.

Totally. Portugal is not one of the wealthier EU countries. Not the government and not it’s people. Totally nonsensical to even suggest that.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the average Portuguese has better quality of life and better purchasing power than the average German/Italian/Brit, within their respective borders. In other words, in Portugal a Portuguese has a much better quality of life than a German has in Germany. Those people in the so called wealthy countries have high salaries but they also have very high cost of living and debt. In other words, they are spending money they don't have to begin with.
And no, there is no housing bubble so there's no need to worry about it affecting the economy. Like I said, those expensive houses are for foreigners so some builders may be a little less millionaire if they don't sell as many but it has little effect on the average resident.

RvA · Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:22 pm

airbazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:

Saying that the real estate bubble does not have an impact in Portugal because “all Portuguese are home owners already” is hilarious at best.

Totally. Portugal is not one of the wealthier EU countries. Not the government and not it’s people. Totally nonsensical to even suggest that.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the average Portuguese has better quality of life and better purchasing power than the average German/Italian/Brit, within their respective borders. In other words, in Portugal a Portuguese has a much better quality of life than a German has in Germany. Those people in the so called wealthy countries have high salaries but they also have very high cost of living and debt. In other words, they are spending money they don't have to begin with.
And no, there is no housing bubble so there's no need to worry about it affecting the economy. Like I said, those expensive houses are for foreigners so some builders may be a little less millionaire if they don't sell as many but it has little effect on the average resident.

Im happy to be educated and I’m interested to learn more about that. Do you have a source for this?

TAP343 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:59 pm

airbazar wrote:
I can tell you with absolute certainty that the average Portuguese has better quality of life and better purchasing power than the average German/Italian/Brit, within their respective borders. In other words, in Portugal a Portuguese has a much better quality of life than a German has in Germany. Those people in the so called wealthy countries have high salaries but they also have very high cost of living and debt. In other words, they are spending money they don't have to begin with.
And no, there is no housing bubble so there's no need to worry about it affecting the economy. Like I said, those expensive houses are for foreigners so some builders may be a little less millionaire if they don't sell as many but it has little effect on the average resident.

Those are "alternative facts".

Now, the real facts:

GDP current prices in US dollars (Purchasing Power Parity) per capita (2020 estimate):

Portugal - $34,936
Germany - $55,306.

Source: IMF

luckyone · Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:04 pm

delete

airbazar · Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:07 pm

RvA wrote:
airbazar wrote:
RvA wrote:

Totally. Portugal is not one of the wealthier EU countries. Not the government and not it’s people. Totally nonsensical to even suggest that.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the average Portuguese has better quality of life and better purchasing power than the average German/Italian/Brit, within their respective borders. In other words, in Portugal a Portuguese has a much better quality of life than a German has in Germany. Those people in the so called wealthy countries have high salaries but they also have very high cost of living and debt. In other words, they are spending money they don't have to begin with.
And no, there is no housing bubble so there's no need to worry about it affecting the economy. Like I said, those expensive houses are for foreigners so some builders may be a little less millionaire if they don't sell as many but it has little effect on the average resident.

Im happy to be educated and I’m interested to learn more about that. Do you have a source for this?

My source is having friends and family living in different European countries and witnessing first hand how they live, which is as subjective as any official statistic you might find. How much value do you put in sunny, warm weather and inexpensive good wine? Have you ever wondered why so many "northerners" chose to retire in Portugal and Spain? It couldn't possibly be because the quality of life is bad.
Having said all of that, I am not ignorant to the fact that there is a percentage of the population that completely missed the boat on Portugal's recent economic growth. But the days when the Portuguese were these poor people living on the edge of Europe are long gone, IMO.

And to sort of put this back on track again, if TAP were to disappear there isn't another airline what would fill the void. Because TAP is government owned they can operate routes at a loss in order to bring in visitors whose spending and investments make up the difference. In the end the government still gets it's money. A private airline would never operate in this way. No other airline is going to operate 70 weekly flights to Brazil or to N. America. That would lead to less competition and higher fares, and therefore fewer visitors. I still remember when I had to travel via FRA/LHR/AMS to get to Portugal from the U.S. at exorbitant fare prices because of the lack of competition from a Portuguese carrier. I'd hate to have to do that again. Instead of visiting every year I only visited every 2-3 years.

TAP343 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:26 pm

airbazar wrote:
My source is having friends and family living in different European countries and witnessing first hand how they live, which is as subjective as any official statistic you might find. How much value do you put in sunny, warm weather and inexpensive good wine? Have you ever wondered why so many "northerners" chose to retire in Portugal and Spain? It couldn't possibly be because the quality of life is bad.
Having said all of that, I am not ignorant to the fact that there is a percentage of the population that completely missed the boat on Portugal's recent economic growth. But the days when the Portuguese were these poor people living on the edge of Europe are long gone, IMO.

Official statistics, if calculated correctly, are objective. It's their interpretation that might be subjective.

airbazar wrote:
And to sort of put this back on track again, if TAP were to disappear there isn't another airline what would fill the void. Because TAP is government owned they can operate routes at a loss in order to bring in visitors whose spending and investments make up the difference. In the end the government still gets it's money. A private airline would never operate in this way. No other airline is going to operate 70 weekly flights to Brazil or to N. America. That would lead to less competition and higher fares, and therefore fewer visitors. I still remember when I had to travel via FRA/LHR/AMS to get to Portugal from the U.S. at exorbitant fare prices because of the lack of competition from a Portuguese carrier. I'd hate to have to do that again. Instead of visiting every year I only visited every 2-3 years.

So TAP's purpose is to subsidise tourists and expats on their trips to Portugal at the expense of the taxpayer like in some third world country?

RvA · Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:45 pm

airbazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
airbazar wrote:

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the average Portuguese has better quality of life and better purchasing power than the average German/Italian/Brit, within their respective borders. In other words, in Portugal a Portuguese has a much better quality of life than a German has in Germany. Those people in the so called wealthy countries have high salaries but they also have very high cost of living and debt. In other words, they are spending money they don't have to begin with.
And no, there is no housing bubble so there's no need to worry about it affecting the economy. Like I said, those expensive houses are for foreigners so some builders may be a little less millionaire if they don't sell as many but it has little effect on the average resident.

Im happy to be educated and I’m interested to learn more about that. Do you have a source for this?

My source is having friends and family living in different European countries and witnessing first hand how they live, which is as subjective as any official statistic you might find. How much value do you put in sunny, warm weather and inexpensive good wine? Have you ever wondered why so many "northerners" chose to retire in Portugal and Spain? It couldn't possibly be because the quality of life is bad.
Having said all of that, I am not ignorant to the fact that there is a percentage of the population that completely missed the boat on Portugal's recent economic growth. But the days when the Portuguese were these poor people living on the edge of Europe are long gone, IMO.

And to sort of put this back on track again, if TAP were to disappear there isn't another airline what would fill the void. Because TAP is government owned they can operate routes at a loss in order to bring in visitors whose spending and investments make up the difference. In the end the government still gets it's money. A private airline would never operate in this way. No other airline is going to operate 70 weekly flights to Brazil or to N. America. That would lead to less competition and higher fares, and therefore fewer visitors. I still remember when I had to travel via FRA/LHR/AMS to get to Portugal from the U.S. at exorbitant fare prices because of the lack of competition from a Portuguese carrier. I'd hate to have to do that again. Instead of visiting every year I only visited every 2-3 years.

Thanks for the anecdotes. Appreciate your position but this doesn’t change mine. Northerners CAN retire in the south. Many people in Portugal and Spain are barely able to sustain themselves where they have lived their whole lives. There is absolutely no way purchasing power is even remotely on par between the south of Europe and the North. Sadly so but find me some statistics that prove otherwise. My own personal experience is in line with GDP and any other statistic. Weather and wine (which you can buy everywhere anyway) doesn’t change that.

Back on topic indeed, I maintain TAP would make a final addition to the LH Group. Great location for LHG to use as hub and economies of scale (fleet commonality etc) would greatly help TP too.

Nicknuzzii · Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:39 pm

LXwing wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
questions wrote:
Side note, but related.

SAS is S.A.S., not Sas

EVA is E.V.A., not Eva

Is TAP T.A.P., not Tap? Or are people referring to the airline as Air Portugal?

Thanks.

Tap Air Portugal

No, it is TAP Air Portugal (from Transportes Aéreos Portugueses)

Which are you saying here, TAP or T-A-P?

airbazar · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:53 pm

TAP343 wrote:
Official statistics, if calculated correctly, are objective. It's their interpretation that might be subjective.

I was referring specifically to quality of life rankings. Here's one:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... e-rankings
But I would never in a million years live in a place where I can't enjoy a nice beach. So to me that ranking would be more like AUS, USA, FRA, POR. I happen to live in the U.S. where I have a pretty nice beach near my house. With that username you should know how much the Portuguese value their beaches and weather

RvA wrote:
Thanks for the anecdotes. Appreciate your position but this doesn’t change mine. Northerners CAN retire in the south. Many people in Portugal and Spain are barely able to sustain themselves where they have lived their whole lives.

That's a very old stereotype. You have poor people in nearly every country. Likewise many people in the UK/Germany/etc are barely able to sustain themselves where they have lived their whole lives. 17% of Germans and 15% of Brits live below the poverty line. While in Portugal that mark is a bit higher at 19% at least they have a roof over their heads. There's practically no homelessness in Portugal whereas Germany and the UK have one of the highest rates in Europe. By the way, Italy and their great economy has 30% of the population living below the poverty line but you probably would never think of Italy as a poor country would you? No wonder Alitalia can't stay in business.
https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=69&r=eu&l=en

TAP343 wrote:
So TAP's purpose is to subsidise tourists and expats on their trips to Portugal at the expense of the taxpayer like in some third world country?

If it boosts the economy and the quality of life of its citizens, yes. And no it does not come at the expense of taxpayers since the government cannot subsidize the airline but I understand that's the general feeling among many in Portugal, albeit an incorrect one.

RvA · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:20 pm

airbazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
Thanks for the anecdotes. Appreciate your position but this doesn’t change mine. Northerners CAN retire in the south. Many people in Portugal and Spain are barely able to sustain themselves where they have lived their whole lives.

That's a very old stereotype. You have poor people in nearly every country. Likewise many people in the UK/Germany/etc are barely able to sustain themselves where they have lived their whole lives. 17% of Germans and 15% of Brits live below the poverty line. While in Portugal that mark is a bit higher at 19% at least they have a roof over their heads. There's practically no homelessness in Portugal whereas Germany and the UK have one of the highest rates in Europe. By the way, Italy and their great economy has 30% of the population living below the poverty line but you probably would never think of Italy as a poor country would you? No wonder Alitalia can't stay in business.
https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=69&r=eu&l=en

TAP343 wrote:
So TAP's purpose is to subsidise tourists and expats on their trips to Portugal at the expense of the taxpayer like in some third world country?

If it boosts the economy and the quality of life of its citizens, yes. And no it does not come at the expense of taxpayers since the government cannot subsidize the airline but I understand that's the general feeling among many in Portugal, albeit an incorrect one.

Actually I wouldn’t consider Italy as wealthy overall no. I also wouldn’t call their economy great.
Portugal is not on par with Germany for individual purchasing power. It just isn’t. Your relation to poor people is not what I am saying. Poor btw is relative as someone considered poor in Europe is generally not comparably poor to someone in Africa or South America. But back to Portugal, on an individual basis, Portuguese people are not as wealthy as Dutch, Scandinavian or German.

RvA · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:30 pm

About purchasing power;

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... sing-power

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... y_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita?wprov=sfti1

Back on topic, I would be curious though should LHG buy into TAP what would happen to OPO. I would hope TP could continue to fly to Brazil from there but would it make sense to route via LIS instead? Where are the A330 crew based who operate those flights? Anyone know?

aviationlover7 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:55 pm

TAP343 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
My source is having friends and family living in different European countries and witnessing first hand how they live, which is as subjective as any official statistic you might find. How much value do you put in sunny, warm weather and inexpensive good wine? Have you ever wondered why so many "northerners" chose to retire in Portugal and Spain? It couldn't possibly be because the quality of life is bad.
Having said all of that, I am not ignorant to the fact that there is a percentage of the population that completely missed the boat on Portugal's recent economic growth. But the days when the Portuguese were these poor people living on the edge of Europe are long gone, IMO.

Official statistics, if calculated correctly, are objective. It's their interpretation that might be subjective.

airbazar wrote:
And to sort of put this back on track again, if TAP were to disappear there isn't another airline what would fill the void. Because TAP is government owned they can operate routes at a loss in order to bring in visitors whose spending and investments make up the difference. In the end the government still gets it's money. A private airline would never operate in this way. No other airline is going to operate 70 weekly flights to Brazil or to N. America. That would lead to less competition and higher fares, and therefore fewer visitors. I still remember when I had to travel via FRA/LHR/AMS to get to Portugal from the U.S. at exorbitant fare prices because of the lack of competition from a Portuguese carrier. I'd hate to have to do that again. Instead of visiting every year I only visited every 2-3 years.

So TAP's purpose is to subsidise tourists and expats on their trips to Portugal at the expense of the taxpayer like in some third world country?

You're missing the bigger picture...This potential take-over by Lufthansa/United is not good for Portugal, TAP and customers in general as it will tame the growth of an increasingly relevant TATL player - read more here: https://onemileatatime.com/lufthansa-un ... -portugal/

LXwing · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:13 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
LXwing wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

Tap Air Portugal

No, it is TAP Air Portugal (from Transportes Aéreos Portugueses)

Which are you saying here, TAP or T-A-P?

Why is it so difficult to understand that TAP (or T.A.P. or T-A-P) is an acronym and not a word? :confused:

Polot · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:21 pm

LXwing wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
LXwing wrote:

No, it is TAP Air Portugal (from Transportes Aéreos Portugueses)

Which are you saying here, TAP or T-A-P?

Why is it so difficult to understand that TAP (or T.A.P. or T-A-P) is an acronym and not a word?

Is it still officially an acronym?

LXwing · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:42 pm

Polot wrote:
LXwing wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

Which are you saying here, TAP or T-A-P?

Why is it so difficult to understand that TAP (or T.A.P. or T-A-P) is an acronym and not a word?

Is it still officially an acronym?

Yes, why wouldn't it be? The legal name of the company is Transportes Aéreos Portugueses, S.A. and TAP it's acronym.

tobsw · Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:05 pm

The brand is TAP Air Portugal. TAP stands for Transportes Aéreos Portugueses. Hence, the branding is redundant; but it is how it is.

Polot · Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:08 pm

LXwing wrote:
Polot wrote:
LXwing wrote:

Why is it so difficult to understand that TAP (or T.A.P. or T-A-P) is an acronym and not a word?

Is it still officially an acronym?

Yes, why wouldn't it be? The legal name of the company is Transportes Aéreos Portugueses, S.A. and TAP it's acronym.

I wasn’t sure if the legal name was still Transportes Aéreos Portugueses. Many companies often drop their full name and legally brand themselves as just their acronym. Qantas for example, it is not Q.A.N.T.A.S. or Q-A-N-T-A-S.

Nicknuzzii · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:11 pm

Everyone calls it TAP and I agree it should be referred to as that.

kipfilet · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:20 pm

I am a Portuguese person living abroad and to argue that (average) Portuguese people have higher purchasing power than (average) Germans is absolutely laughable, and is probably coming from someone who is completely out of touch with the reality of the average Portuguese household. There is a significant right tail, but average/median incomes in Portugal are extremely low even in real terms. My guess is that the poster who claimed this comes from a relatively well off family; there is substantial income inequality in Portugal.

TAP is an acronym as others have pointed out and should therefore be written in all caps.

Naia · Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:18 am

Pyrex wrote:
Naia wrote:
Last year: GRU-LIS almost 600.000 pessengers - TAP 14 to 18 weekly flights (A339) and Latam 5 to 7 weekly flights (763 and A359). VCP-LIS arround 250.000 passengers - 9 to 14 weekly flights (A332 and A339). GRU+VCP to LIS, more than 800.000 anual passengers. GRU-CDG and MAD, almost 600.000 to 650.000. GRU-FRA and LHR almost 500.000. GRU-FCO maybe 400.000.

And that is not even counting GRU/VCP-OPO (how many non-hub cities in Europe even have that?). Or all the other flights from LIS to Brazil. Or OPO-GIG.

Yeah! Just GRU-LIS (almost 600.000). VCP-LIS more than 200.000 (maybe 250.000 last year). GRU-OPO (3 weekly with A332)
registered about 70,000 passengers if i am not wrong. GIG-LIS almost 250.000 last year (just Tap, 9 to 12 weekly with A339). GIG-OPO (2 weekly with A332) registered about 55.000 passengers last year.

Remembering that in Viracopos airport, few passengers are from São Paulo and the metropolitan region. About 60% come from connections and more than 30% from Campinas, a rich city in Brazil, about 1.3 million inhabitants in the city and 3.5 million in the metropolitan region.

airbazar · Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:10 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Yeah, I am in the same bucket. My sense is that airbazar is a Portuguese-descendant who was born and lives in the U.S. I know quite a few people like that, and they do tend to view "the homeland" (really, their parent's homeland) in rose-tinted glasses. Part of the reason is because a lot of what they know about Portugal they tend to hear from parents who left the country decades ago (people do sometimes have a tendency to remember the good times, often misleadingly, and forget the bad ones) and part of it is because their experience in Portugal is basically visiting relatives while on vacation (and everything looks better while you are in vacation and don't actually have to work). Also, the Portuguese-American community is a big part of their identity (something that really helped their parents integrate/adapt when they moved over, etc.), and again, that tends to be something that oversells the good and underplays the bad.

Actually I'm not. My family were refugees from Mozambique who arrived in Portugal in the mid 80's with nothing but the clothes on our back. My parents couldn't find a job in Portugal and immigrated, then returned to Portugal after retiring. I went to high school in Portugal (Tomar to be more specific) and then was lucky enough to get a scholarship to attend college in the U.S. and stayed here. I don't even identify with Portugal. I'm more Mozambican than Portuguese because that's where I grew up. I don't have a single Portuguese friend here in the U.S. living close to me. I don't mix with the Portuguese-American community. And I believe that being an outsider actually allows me to have a unbiased view of Portugal.

kipfilet wrote:
I am a Portuguese person living abroad and to argue that (average) Portuguese people have higher purchasing power than (average) Germans is absolutely laughable, and is probably coming from someone who is completely out of touch with the reality of the average Portuguese household. There is a significant right tail, but average/median incomes in Portugal are extremely low even in real terms. My guess is that the poster who claimed this comes from a relatively well off family; there is substantial income inequality in Portugal.

TAP is an acronym as others have pointed out and should therefore be written in all caps.

You and everyone else never read my full post obviously. I never compared a German with a Portuguese in absolute terms because that's like comparing apples to oranges. I was comparing purchasing power of an average Portuguese IN Portugal vs an average German IN Germany. Average meaning, not the wealthy and not the poor but someone in the middle class. Obviously if a Portuguese goes to Germany their money doesn't go as far but that is irrelevant because that's not where they live so why would their salaries be equivalent? People in Portugal love to whine about how their salaries are so much lower than in other countries. Well their cost of living is significantly lower too. The fact that half of the German population doesn't have enough money to buy a house should be enough evidence that in their respective countries the Portuguese come out on top.
I'll give you a concrete example: I have 2 friends. One works for Lufthansa customer service in Munich and the other for TAP in a comparable position in Lisbon. The one living in Munich lives in a 2 bedroom flat in Munich and the one working for TAP lives in a 2 bedroom duplex house with a yard and 2 dogs, walking distance to the Parede(Cascais) beach. The quality of life that the 2 have is not even comparable. Of course my German friend has a lot more spending money when he visits Portugal but that's besides the point.
And that's the end of this discussion for me. We'll just agree to disagree I guess

Pyrex · Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:12 pm

kipfilet wrote:
I am a Portuguese person living abroad and to argue that (average) Portuguese people have higher purchasing power than (average) Germans is absolutely laughable, and is probably coming from someone who is completely out of touch with the reality of the average Portuguese household. There is a significant right tail, but average/median incomes in Portugal are extremely low even in real terms. My guess is that the poster who claimed this comes from a relatively well off family; there is substantial income inequality in Portugal.

TAP is an acronym as others have pointed out and should therefore be written in all caps.

Yeah, I am in the same bucket. My sense is that airbazar is a Portuguese-descendant who was born and lives in the U.S. I know quite a few people like that, and they do tend to view "the homeland" (really, their parent's homeland) in rose-tinted glasses. Part of the reason is because a lot of what they know about Portugal they tend to hear from parents who left the country decades ago (people do sometimes have a tendency to remember the good times, often misleadingly, and forget the bad ones) and part of it is because their experience in Portugal is basically visiting relatives while on vacation (and everything looks better while you are in vacation and don't actually have to work). Also, the Portuguese-American community is a big part of their identity (something that really helped their parents integrate/adapt when they moved over, etc.), and again, that tends to be something that oversells the good and underplays the bad.

dash500 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:49 pm

tobsw wrote:
The brand is TAP Air Portugal. TAP stands for Transportes Aéreos Portugueses. Hence, the branding is redundant; but it is how it is.

'Air Portugal' works for the brand (TAP) the same way 'Royal Dutch Airlines' does in KLM logo. For many years the company struggled to find a name that worked both internally and for the international public.

TAP tried different signatures over the years: TAP - Portuguese Airways, The Airline of Portugal, The Intercontinental Airline of Portugal.

In 1979, the idea was to have a short transition period to change the airline's name from TAP to simply Air Portugal (hence the 't' in the logo was not filled with color). But everyone in Portugal kept calling it just TAP: it's easy, short and everyone in Portugal knows what it refers to since there is no word "tap" in portuguese. For many years TAP Air Portugal was the effective name. In 2005 they changed the brand to TAP Portugal (I never liked it, must say) and 12 years later they found the same problems the company had in the 70s and returned to the previous commercial name.

But the legal name never changed since it was first incorporated in 1953. Only the type of corporation has changed:
§ June 1, 1953: "Transportes Aéreos Portugueses, S.A.R.L."
§ April 16,1975: "Transportes Aéreos Portugueses, E.P."
§ August 17, 1991: "Transportes Aéreos Portugueses, S.A."

The legal name of the parent company (incorporated in April 26, 2003) is "TAP - Transportes Aéreos Portugueses, SGPS, S.A.".

kipfilet · Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:49 pm

airbazar wrote:
You and everyone else never read my full post obviously. I never compared a German with a Portuguese in absolute terms because that's like comparing apples to oranges. I was comparing purchasing power of an average Portuguese IN Portugal vs an average German IN Germany. Average meaning, not the wealthy and not the poor but someone in the middle class. Obviously if a Portuguese goes to Germany their money doesn't go as far but that is irrelevant because that's not where they live so why would their salaries be equivalent? People in Portugal love to whine about how their salaries are so much lower than in other countries. Well their cost of living is significantly lower too. The fact that half of the German population doesn't have enough money to buy a house should be enough evidence that in their respective countries the Portuguese come out on top.
I'll give you a concrete example: I have 2 friends. One works for Lufthansa customer service in Munich and the other for TAP in a comparable position in Lisbon. The one living in Munich lives in a 2 bedroom flat in Munich and the one working for TAP lives in a 2 bedroom duplex house with a yard and 2 dogs, walking distance to the Parede(Cascais) beach. The quality of life that the 2 have is not even comparable. Of course my German friend has a lot more spending money when he visits Portugal but that's besides the point.
And that's the end of this discussion for me. We'll just agree to disagree I guess

IMF data for 2019:
GDP per capita PPP in Germany: $53,567
GDP per capita PPP in Portugal: $33,665

This measure is:
(i) per capita, hence an average
(ii) PPP, hence adjusting for differences in purchasing power/price levels
An average German household has almost twice the purchasing power of an average Portuguese household, when accounting for cost of living.
I understand that you are trying to extrapolate from anecdotal evidence, but this is the data. I am talking about average people, not the select few who work for TAP or Lufthansa. Most people in Portugal could only dream of working for TAP or living in Parede. Heck, many young people in Portugal cannot even find a job (youth unemployment was 18% in 2019, one of the highest numbers in the OECD). Portugal is certainly wealthier than most other countries in the world, but it is still a poor country for European (particularly Western European) standards.

clipperlondon · Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:00 pm

jfk777 wrote:
All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.

Anyone who's familiar with a certain Live Air Spotters website and has seen the live Toulouse feeds over recent months will not be surprised. Airbuses of all kinds ready for delivery to TAP are pouring out of Airbus factory like British floodwaters. Where are they getting their money from? comes the frequent refrain...I wondered when this topic would come up on here.

clipperlondon · Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:02 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
I visited Toulouse recently and was astounded by the number of TAP aircraft due for delivery. They seem to be going full steam ahead for expansion. Probably too full if you ask me. Seeing this loss doesn't surprise me. They have too much capacity

Seems I'm not the first to comment lol
.

TAP343 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:44 pm

airbazar wrote:
Actually I'm not. My family were refugees from Mozambique who arrived in Portugal in the mid 80's with nothing but the clothes on our back. My parents couldn't find a job in Portugal and immigrated, then returned to Portugal after retiring. I went to high school in Portugal (Tomar to be more specific) and then was lucky enough to get a scholarship to attend college in the U.S. and stayed here. I don't even identify with Portugal. I'm more Mozambican than Portuguese because that's where I grew up. I don't have a single Portuguese friend here in the U.S. living close to me. I don't mix with the Portuguese-American community. And I believe that being an outsider actually allows me to have a unbiased view of Portugal.

I know that the Portuguese decolonisation in Africa was dramatic but calling your family "refugees" is a bit of a stretch. Your family didn't have to move, at least initially, to a foreign country and I would say the move was in the mid 70's when Mozambique became independent not in the mid 80's, considering that you left with nothing.

As for identifying yourself more as Mozambican than Portuguese, assuming that you are white, it's like someone saying that they identify more as Azoreans or Madeirans than Portuguese. Mozambique was part of Portugal and, again, if you are white, your cultural background is, most probably, almost identical to the one that any Portuguese from the mainland has.

I feel terribly sorry for those like you that lost, literally, everything during the African decolonisation done in the most absurd way. However, I don't feel sorry at all for the white Portuguese in Africa that enjoyed decades of a much higher standard of living than those born and living in the mainland based on black "slave labour".

dfpinto · Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:07 pm

clipperlondon wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.

Anyone who's familiar with a certain Live Air Spotters website and has seen the live Toulouse feeds over recent months will not be surprised. Airbuses of all kinds ready for delivery to TAP are pouring out of Airbus factory like British floodwaters. Where are they getting their money from? comes the frequent refrain...I wondered when this topic would come up on here.

Here's why I have full trust in the current TP leadership and shareholder structure. While renewing their entire fleet, they managed to restructure and reduce their debt, expand into new markets, increase traffic, increase revenues, increase ASK, retrofit the cabins of existing fleet, shut down the maintenance facilities with the chronic losses in Brazil and a loooot more, and, with a hub in Lisbon, which is probably one of worst airports in Europe for a hub.

It is obvious to me that many people inside that company are working very hard and definitely should be entitled to receive the performance based bonus pay-out. The government on the other hand thinks it's unfair and wants Neeleman out of the shareholder structure. Why on earth would LH get on board with this kind of interference?

TAP343 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:19 pm

dfpinto wrote:
Here's why I have full trust in the current TP leadership and shareholder structure. While renewing their entire fleet, they managed to restructure and reduce their debt, expand into new markets, increase traffic, increase revenues, increase ASK, retrofit the cabins of existing fleet, shut down the maintenance facilities with the chronic losses in Brazil and a loooot more, and, with a hub in Lisbon, which is probably one of worst airports in Europe for a hub.

TAP's debt increased.

Polot · Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:28 pm

dfpinto wrote:
clipperlondon wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.

Anyone who's familiar with a certain Live Air Spotters website and has seen the live Toulouse feeds over recent months will not be surprised. Airbuses of all kinds ready for delivery to TAP are pouring out of Airbus factory like British floodwaters. Where are they getting their money from? comes the frequent refrain...I wondered when this topic would come up on here.

Here's why I have full trust in the current TP leadership and shareholder structure. While renewing their entire fleet, they managed to restructure and reduce their debt, expand into new markets, increase traffic, increase revenues, increase ASK, retrofit the cabins of existing fleet, shut down the maintenance facilities with the chronic losses in Brazil and a loooot more, and, with a hub in Lisbon, which is probably one of worst airports in Europe for a hub.

It is obvious to me that many people inside that company are working very hard and definitely should be entitled to receive the performance based bonus pay-out. The government on the other hand thinks it's unfair and wants Neeleman out of the shareholder structure. Why on earth would LH get on board with this kind of interference?

And with the information so far with TP’s recent expansion from A339s and A321LRs they have also increased losses as well. Metrics like new markets, increased traffic, increased revenue, and increased ASK are pointless if you are losing more money off those gains.

Adding new markets and increasing your fleet size (ASKs) should increase traffic and revenue because the airline is physically larger than it was before. It’s not hard to boost those stats as long as someone is willing to pay for the planes. The tricky part is making sure you boost those stats profitably (or in the case of TAP, while turning towards profitability).

SCQ83 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:07 pm

kipfilet wrote:
IMF data for 2019:
GDP per capita PPP in Germany: $53,567
GDP per capita PPP in Portugal: $33,665

This measure is:
(i) per capita, hence an average
(ii) PPP, hence adjusting for differences in purchasing power/price levels
An average German household has almost twice the purchasing power of an average Portuguese household, when accounting for cost of living.
I understand that you are trying to extrapolate from anecdotal evidence, but this is the data. I am talking about average people, not the select few who work for TAP or Lufthansa. Most people in Portugal could only dream of working for TAP or living in Parede. Heck, many young people in Portugal cannot even find a job (youth unemployment was 18% in 2019, one of the highest numbers in the OECD). Portugal is certainly wealthier than most other countries in the world, but it is still a poor country for European (particularly Western European) standards.

There are a lot of fans in this forum that will insult me when I post data that contradict their TP/PT cinderella stories. Even when I point out that traffic figures (particularly OPO) cannot be understood without taking into consideration the massive Portuguese migration / diaspora (in % higher than Bulgaria or Poland, for instance), they would just report me. There is nothing bad or good about the huge Portuguese diaspora; it is just the way it is. Maybe they will try to convince people that those trillions of daily flights from OPO to Paris, Geneva or Luxembourg are there to fly Portuguese for luxury shopping in place Vendôme or rue de Rhône :roll:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... l_overview

Or when I posted the other day EU statistics showing that Norte region in Portugal (aka OPO) is one of the poorest regions in Western Europe. Lisbon is much wealthier because of the capital effect.

https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/da ... RJP4KWTIrQ

Nicknuzzii · Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:15 pm

What service changes would be possible if the LH/UA acquisition occurs? Are we looking at a JV?

stylo777 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:06 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
IMF data for 2019:
GDP per capita PPP in Germany: $53,567
GDP per capita PPP in Portugal: $33,665

This measure is:
(i) per capita, hence an average
(ii) PPP, hence adjusting for differences in purchasing power/price levels
An average German household has almost twice the purchasing power of an average Portuguese household, when accounting for cost of living.
I understand that you are trying to extrapolate from anecdotal evidence, but this is the data. I am talking about average people, not the select few who work for TAP or Lufthansa. Most people in Portugal could only dream of working for TAP or living in Parede. Heck, many young people in Portugal cannot even find a job (youth unemployment was 18% in 2019, one of the highest numbers in the OECD). Portugal is certainly wealthier than most other countries in the world, but it is still a poor country for European (particularly Western European) standards.

There are a lot of fans in this forum that will insult me when I post data that contradict their TP/PT cinderella stories. Even when I point out that traffic figures (particularly OPO) cannot be understood without taking into consideration the massive Portuguese migration / diaspora (in % higher than Bulgaria or Poland, for instance), they would just report me. There is nothing bad or good about the huge Portuguese diaspora; it is just the way it is. Maybe they will try to convince people that those trillions of daily flights from OPO to Paris, Geneva or Luxembourg are there to fly Portuguese for luxury shopping in place Vendôme or rue de Rhône

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... l_overview

Or when I posted the other day EU statistics showing that Norte region in Portugal (aka OPO) is one of the poorest regions in Western Europe. Lisbon is much wealthier because of the capital effect.

https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/da ... RJP4KWTIrQ

totally agree and I was particularly impressed by the huge diaspora of Portuguese living in Switzerland; in fact, there are multiple daily flights between both countries (not only ZRH-LIS, but also OPO, GVA, BSL). to underline this fact: we followed LX operating 77W to either LIS or OPO (I'm not sure...) last year during busy holiday season. hell, there are even flights from SIR to OPO - SIR being Sion, somewhere in the Swiss Alps I guess...

airbazar · Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:43 pm

TAP343 wrote:
I know that the Portuguese decolonisation in Africa was dramatic but calling your family "refugees" is a bit of a stretch. Your family didn't have to move, at least initially, to a foreign country and I would say the move was in the mid 70's when Mozambique became independent not in the mid 80's, considering that you left with nothing..

You know nothing about me or my family so stop making stuff up. I just told you we left in the 80's not during decolonization, during the civil war and at a time when people with different political opinions were sent to prison never to be seen again. We were Mozambican citizens not Portuguese citizens but were lucky to have friends and family in Portugal who helped us leave and took care of us and a country that embraced us and for that I am eternally grateful. The end.

TAP343 · Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:27 am

airbazar wrote:
TAP343 wrote:
I know that the Portuguese decolonisation in Africa was dramatic but calling your family "refugees" is a bit of a stretch. Your family didn't have to move, at least initially, to a foreign country and I would say the move was in the mid 70's when Mozambique became independent not in the mid 80's, considering that you left with nothing..

You know nothing about me or my family so stop making stuff up. I just told you we left in the 80's not during decolonization, during the civil war and at a time when people with different political opinions were sent to prison never to be seen again. We were Mozambican citizens not Portuguese citizens but were lucky to have friends and family in Portugal who helped us leave and took care of us and a country that embraced us and for that I am eternally grateful. The end.

Sorry about that. I thought you and your family were some of the so-called "retornados".

Meanwhile, the rumours have reached Germany:

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Lufthansa (LHAG.DE) and United Airlines (UAL.O) are considering taking over TAP-Air Portugal, a German newspaper reported on Wednesday.

Sueddeutsche Zeitung, citing unidentified corporate sources, said talks were not close to a conclusion and the process could take some time.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-tap-m-a-lufthansa-united/lufthansa-and-united-weigh-takeover-of-portugals-tap-sueddeutsche-idUSKCN20K2F8

LupineChemist · Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:48 pm

Given the size of the Argentina-Spain market, I'm surprised they can't make EZE work. Yeah, hard to compete with the direct to Madrid but a huge portion connect to other destination in Spain. It's slightly shorter to connect in LIS to head up to LCG, for example.

TAP343 · Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:22 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Given the size of the Argentina-Spain market, I'm surprised they can't make EZE work. Yeah, hard to compete with the direct to Madrid but a huge portion connect to other destination in Spain. It's slightly shorter to connect in LIS to head up to LCG, for example.

Maybe TAP can't make EZE work because Argentina is in a recession yet again besides all the competition.

aviationlover7 · Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:54 am

Any further developments on this topic?
Perhaps the Covid-19 crisis may affect the negotiations?
Thoughts?

Terrier79 · Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:25 am

aviationlover7 wrote:
Any further developments on this topic?
Perhaps the Covid-19 crisis may affect the negotiations?
Thoughts?

I think it’s pretty safe to say that in these times of a worldwide crisis, where all airlines have to take every measure of to secure sufficient liquid funds, and where all management capacities are needed to get through the crisis in the least bad way, there will not be much if not no activity in regards to any takeovers.

After the crisis, consolidation will likely go fast and the strongest survivors of the crisis will pick the cherries.

flyingqueen · Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:58 am

I could not find the topic anywhere, and cannot seem to paste the GDS upload, but seems like TAP loaded new destinations over the weekend. I think this is a very bold and good move, and PDL-BOS must be doing well. From their GDS load, it seems:

a) PDL-YYZ, 2/week, ...4..7, 321-LR, eff. June 25
b) LIS-AGA, 4/week, 1...567, AT7, eff. October 26
c) LIS-CPT, 3/week, ..3.5.7, 339, eff. November 11
d) LIS-CUN, 3/week, .2.4.6., 339, eff. October 27

Great positive news.

Ishrion · Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:00 am

Doesn’t TAP codeshare with Azores on PDL-YYZ? I remember seeing it bookable on TAP’s website.

Pretty ambitious given the conditions. Hoping to see these... survive.

PDL-YYZ on TAP appears to be bookable, LIS-CPT/CUN are not.

x1234 · Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:28 am

Launching CPT was purely for tourism I guess as all the high yield traffic in Africa is in JNB. They should launch JNB ASAP. CUN is a leisure route as well but they should also launch MEX (yields on par with GRU).

RWA380 · Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:56 am

x1234 wrote:
Launching CPT was purely for tourism I guess as all the high yield traffic in Africa is in JNB. They should launch JNB ASAP. CUN is a leisure route as well but they should also launch MEX (yields on par with GRU).

Not at all, there's a very good amount of premium travelers from CPT. I know some, they are in my immediate family. Several worked for DeBeers over the years & with a home in Capetown & another in Colorado, My one cousin is often transiting. My other cousin keeps a Capetown home & lives in Toronto. The UA add to EWR was very welcome & the service passed their muster with flying colors.

I guess what I am saying, there is a not very small demographic of wealthy in Capetown that are senior executives or retirees, that wanted to stay in one of the best places South Africa has to offer.

Williamsb747 · Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:34 am

Some good news in these grim times. Can’t wait to see TAP down here in CPT. Wonder how long they going to have their planes sit in CPT, anybody have the timetable for these flights I can’t seem to find it?

raylee67 · Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:54 am

Any new flights is good news nowadays. Congrats TAP!

MAH4546 · Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:13 am

Williamsb747 wrote:
Some good news in these grim times. Can’t wait to see TAP down here in CPT. Wonder how long they going to have their planes sit in CPT, anybody have the timetable for these flights I can’t seem to find it?

Not long its a turn-around. Daylight down, overnight back.

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