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asuflyer
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:59 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why have they never tried PDL-EWR?


PDL flights support the diaspora from the Azores which have sizable populations in YYZ, BOS/PVD area. The EWR flights target the overall NYC market and large Portuguese population in NJ that has their origins primarily in Porto and Lisbon. DL tried JFK-PDL and it lasted 2 summers only.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10164
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:25 pm

asuflyer wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why have they never tried PDL-EWR?


PDL flights support the diaspora from the Azores which have sizable populations in YYZ, BOS/PVD area. The EWR flights target the overall NYC market and large Portuguese population in NJ that has their origins primarily in Porto and Lisbon. DL tried JFK-PDL and it lasted 2 summers only.


EWR-PDL could work for an airline like Azores Airlines if - and this is a big 'if' - they could provide a decent, reliable service with onward connections to Madeira, Morocco, and Canarias.
However I suspect that with TP entering the PDL-BOS and PDL-YYZ market, that will spell the end of Azores Airlines because I don't think they have in them to think beyond their legacy core market. As they say in business, those that do not adapt to change....
 
ryan78
Posts: 358
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:34 pm

Looks like they had a bit of an error fare when opening up the YYZ-PDL flights. Apparently some fares were going for as low as $137 CAD ($98 USD) round-trip. Looks like they've corrected it though as the fares are around $450-500 CAD now. Interesting adds, nice to see CUN get more European service as well. Those A339's are good looking birds.

https://www.secretflying.com/posts/toro ... roundtrip/
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5757
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:39 pm

LIS-AGA was a joke before Coronavirus, now it is simply unbelievable. The good news is that that means LIS-SCQ will be started no matter what :D (although I has been pushed back for about 3 weeks from early to late June).

jfk777 wrote:
Argentina has a basket case economy but there is demand there, the whose who of European airlines fly there. EZE is the second most important destination in South America, TAP should definitely be flying there. MEX is another one it should fly to & Panama since Copa can feed them and no conflict since Copa only flis 737's.


Indeed. Spain-EZE doesn't have many 1-stop options. Unless you connect via Western Europe (huge detour), or GRU (Latam) there are not many "logical" one stop options. LIS-EZE could connect with all the Spanish portfolio. BCN has a huge Argentinian diaspora and even SCQ-EZE is relatively important (at some point there were non-stop flights in summer), in addition to the obvious MAD-LIS-EZE connections. Also EZE is more varied that just a VFR place; it has leisure and VFR both directions and business.
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:12 pm

I still don't understand why they don't offer BOS to OPO on the A321. It's a missed opportunity, offering service to Northern Portugal and Galicia.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
danielribo
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:02 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:33 pm

Just booked a one-way LIS-CPT for November. $270USD so a total bargain. I can suffer economy for a civil daytime flight.
 
x1234
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:37 pm

I'm also surprised TAP didn't launch LAX yet.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3321
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:48 pm

asuflyer wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why have they never tried PDL-EWR?


PDL flights support the diaspora from the Azores which have sizable populations in YYZ, BOS/PVD area. The EWR flights target the overall NYC market and large Portuguese population in NJ that has their origins primarily in Porto and Lisbon. DL tried JFK-PDL and it lasted 2 summers only.


Actually, DL's JFK-PDL only lasted one summer - 2019.

The other significant Azorean diaspora I'm aware of is in Northern California (hence S4's 1x weekly OAK-TER flight that operated for years).
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
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chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:54 pm

FSDan wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why have they never tried PDL-EWR?


PDL flights support the diaspora from the Azores which have sizable populations in YYZ, BOS/PVD area. The EWR flights target the overall NYC market and large Portuguese population in NJ that has their origins primarily in Porto and Lisbon. DL tried JFK-PDL and it lasted 2 summers only.


Actually, DL's JFK-PDL only lasted one summer - 2019.

The other significant Azorean diaspora I'm aware of is in Northern California (hence S4's 1x weekly OAK-TER flight that operated for years).

JFK-PDL on DL was launched in 2018, returned in 2019 and was canned at the end of the season for summer 19.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
FSDan
Posts: 3321
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:58 pm

chepos wrote:
FSDan wrote:
asuflyer wrote:

PDL flights support the diaspora from the Azores which have sizable populations in YYZ, BOS/PVD area. The EWR flights target the overall NYC market and large Portuguese population in NJ that has their origins primarily in Porto and Lisbon. DL tried JFK-PDL and it lasted 2 summers only.


Actually, DL's JFK-PDL only lasted one summer - 2019.

The other significant Azorean diaspora I'm aware of is in Northern California (hence S4's 1x weekly OAK-TER flight that operated for years).

JFK-PDL on DL was launched in 2018, returned in 2019 and was canned at the end of the season for summer 19.


I stand corrected - how time flies!
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:49 pm

a350lover wrote:
TAP is heavily capitalized by public funds. They are trying hard to overtake IB as the South-West European hub towards America. They indeed have a remarkable presence in USA and Africas. South America won't be easy and I don't see them in MEX or EZE (high yield markets) for instance. They already tried BOG and failed. CUN is purely leisure, so is CPT and rest of the announcements.



- Mex (North America) > Spain via Lis is a no brainier at some stage
- yields on CPT with connections onwards are probably as good as JNB , perfectly explains the short time on the ground
- PTY with codeshares on Copa possibly JV would be very very interesting
- CUN is clearly aimed at connections from Spain

Wish TP every success , they’re one of the most interesting airlines to watch
 
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qf789
Moderator
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:18 pm

Could we please just discuss the topic and keep personal comments towards other users out of the discussion
Forum Moderator
 
Sancho
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:19 pm

flyingqueen wrote:
I could not find the topic anywhere, and cannot seem to paste the GDS upload, but seems like TAP loaded new destinations over the weekend. I think this is a very bold and good move, and PDL-BOS must be doing well. From their GDS load, it seems:

a) PDL-YYZ, 2/week, ...4..7, 321-LR, eff. June 25
b) LIS-AGA, 4/week, 1...567, AT7, eff. October 26
c) LIS-CPT, 3/week, ..3.5.7, 339, eff. November 11
d) LIS-CUN, 3/week, .2.4.6., 339, eff. October 27

Great positive news.


Congrats to TP and great news for both countries, they should look to interline with a mexican ULCC to boost the route, Viva might be a good option, they offer more than 20 destinations from CUN and mexicans are very used to connect in crappy MEX or USA so this could be an interesting option on their way to Europe.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5757
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:55 am

a350lover wrote:
TAP is heavily capitalized by public funds. They are trying hard to overtake IB as the South-West European hub towards America. They indeed have a remarkable presence in USA and Africas. South America won't be easy and I don't see them in MEX or EZE (high yield markets) for instance. They already tried BOG and failed. CUN is purely leisure, so is CPT and rest of the announcements.


Galwayman wrote:
CUN is clearly aimed at connections from Spain


IMO CPT and CUN are hardly comparable. CUN is middle class Europeans going for 1-week of sun. CPT has a more varied mix. Local VFR and higher-end tourism, specially from the US (they could connect people flying NYC-LIS-CPT)

The issue with AGA and CUN is that those destinations in the post-COVID world will be very affected. I have a hard time seeing middle class Europeans (which by the end of 2020 will be unemployed or fearful of being fired) flying 5 (to AGA) or 10 (to CUN) hours for some sun in countries with poor health infrastructure. Those are the kind of trips that will be more affected by the upcoming economic/health fears. I can't see a worst moment in history to launch those flights. Unless TAP thinks they can give away tickets and connect whoever is still flying there.
 
Kadish
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:36 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:42 am

Galwayman wrote:
a350lover wrote:
TAP is heavily capitalized by public funds. They are trying hard to overtake IB as the South-West European hub towards America. They indeed have a remarkable presence in USA and Africas. South America won't be easy and I don't see them in MEX or EZE (high yield markets) for instance. They already tried BOG and failed. CUN is purely leisure, so is CPT and rest of the announcements.



- Mex (North America) > Spain via Lis is a no brainier at some stage
- yields on CPT with connections onwards are probably as good as JNB , perfectly explains the short time on the ground
- PTY with codeshares on Copa possibly JV would be very very interesting
- CUN is clearly aimed at connections from Spain

Wish TP every success , they’re one of the most interesting airlines to watch


Spanish people flying to CUN do it with a package tour..flights,hotel....I dont think this Is aimed for connections...
 
evanb
Posts: 912
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:20 am

I think there is often a misnomer about CPT being low yield simply because it's a tourist destination while JNB is high yield because it's a business destination. I would agree that JNB is higher yielding than CPT, and probably because of business links, but it doesn't mean CPT is low yielding. A strong portion of South African inbound tourism is targeted towards at older and higher income market. It isn't a backpacker and family destination in the same vein as Thailand.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:52 am

SCQ83 wrote:
a350lover wrote:
The issue with AGA and CUN is that those destinations in the post-COVID world will be very affected. I have a hard time seeing middle class Europeans (which by the end of 2020 will be unemployed or fearful of being fired) flying 5 (to AGA) or 10 (to CUN) hours for some sun in countries with poor health infrastructure. Those are the kind of trips that will be more affected by the upcoming economic/health fears. I can't see a worst moment in history to launch those flights. Unless TAP thinks they can give away tickets and connect whoever is still flying there.


= I disagree with your analysis, and time will tell. I think both are brilliant additions. As I said before, AGA is a low impact aircraft utilization play. An AT7, especially given fuel prices, is probably something needed for network contribution revenue. In the terms of CUN, let's see. If many middle-class Europeans switch away from flying, they will likely avoid non-stop expensive options, and fly 1-stop via LIS on TP whose cost structure is significantly below other European majors.

Every crisis presents an opportunity, and kudos to TAP and their management team to look at the crisis as an opportunity. Time will tell.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:00 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
a350lover wrote:
The issue with AGA and CUN is that those destinations in the post-COVID world will be very affected. I have a hard time seeing middle class Europeans (which by the end of 2020 will be unemployed or fearful of being fired) flying 5 (to AGA) or 10 (to CUN) hours for some sun in countries with poor health infrastructure. Those are the kind of trips that will be more affected by the upcoming economic/health fears. I can't see a worst moment in history to launch those flights. Unless TAP thinks they can give away tickets and connect whoever is still flying there.


= I disagree with your analysis, and time will tell. I think both are brilliant additions. As I said before, AGA is a low impact aircraft utilization play. An AT7, especially given fuel prices, is probably something needed for network contribution revenue. In the terms of CUN, let's see. If many middle-class Europeans switch away from flying, they will likely avoid non-stop expensive options, and fly 1-stop via LIS on TP whose cost structure is significantly below other European majors.

Every crisis presents an opportunity, and kudos to TAP and their management team to look at the crisis as an opportunity. Time will tell.

Saludos,
Alex

agree with you, TP will receive funds from the govt and will be able to operate almost immediately after the crisis (tourism is seen as strategic in portugal, even if they are not investing in the LIS airport :( ), while many other airlines operating charters might be gone for good along with many low cost: DY, and EZ first.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10164
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:10 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
Every crisis presents an opportunity, and kudos to TAP and their management team to look at the crisis as an opportunity. Time will tell.

To be fair, these destinations were all rumored before the Pandemic started.
I do agree that CUN might be good addition. The reason I think this could be a good addition is two fold:
First, in an economic downturn people search for cheaper alternatives and Cancun is cheap, very cheap compared to the likes of Maldives and Seychelles, or even the Canary Islands. Second, TAP needs to find utilization for their A339's during the winter season when N.America traffic drops significantly.
AGA is just a logical, low cost addition in a market where TAP has been expanding rapidly. Before the Pandemic Morocco's tourism was experiencing fast growth and TAP was capitalizing on it. Whether or when tourism will return to Morocco is anybody's guess.
 
Duartelmatos
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:33 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:02 pm

LIM, BEY and MCO are also on the plan. Let’s see if they will still go forward with this situation.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5757
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:47 pm

airbazar wrote:
First, in an economic downturn people search for cheaper alternatives and Cancun is cheap, very cheap compared to the likes of Maldives and Seychelles, or even the Canary Islands. Second, TAP needs to find utilization for their A339's during the winter season when N.America traffic drops significantly.


That goes both ways. In a global economic downturn, other destinations will lower their prices to attract those tourists. Specially hotels which are the highest cost (other than flights). So Maldives or Seychelles (or other more more reasonably priced places like Thailand or Sri Lanka) might lower their prices. Pure offer and demand.

In any case, at least from Spain, Cancún or Punta Cana do not compete with Maldives/Seychelles (a niche market) but with Thailand or Bali, and the increasingly growing demand for SE Asia, and are already as cheap as those places in the Caribbean.

airbazar wrote:
AGA is just a logical, low cost addition in a market where TAP has been expanding rapidly. Before the Pandemic Morocco's tourism was experiencing fast growth and TAP was capitalizing on it. Whether or when tourism will return to Morocco is anybody's guess.


Agadir is a destination of its own which is basically beach & sun for Northern Europeans. Nothing else. Not even VFR. It is nothing like Marrakech which also has high-end tourism and events and people from all over the world, and some VFR. That is why no one flies mainland Spain - Agadir (despite Spain have infinite more relations with Morocco - for starters like 1 million Moroccans live in Spain -).
 
airbazar
Posts: 10164
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:03 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
First, in an economic downturn people search for cheaper alternatives and Cancun is cheap, very cheap compared to the likes of Maldives and Seychelles, or even the Canary Islands. Second, TAP needs to find utilization for their A339's during the winter season when N.America traffic drops significantly.


That goes both ways. In a global economic downturn, other destinations will lower their prices to attract those tourists. Specially hotels which are the highest cost (other than flights). So Maldives or Seychelles (or other more more reasonably priced places like Thailand or Sri Lanka) might lower their prices. Pure offer and demand.

In any case, at least from Spain, Cancún or Punta Cana do not compete with Maldives/Seychelles (a niche market) but with Thailand or Bali, and the increasingly growing demand for SE Asia, and are already as cheap as those places in the Caribbean.


TAP doesn't cater just to Spanish or Portuguese passengers. Cancún or Punta Cana DID NOT compete with Maldives/Seychelles in a good economy. But you can bet they will now and that's my point. Lowering prices is not really as easy as you make it sound. And Southeast Asia has priced itself too high because of Chinese tourists. There's been a huge drop in demand from European visitors because prices have gone up and after this Pandemic, if we learned anything from SARS and MERS is that it will be a while until European tourists return in large numbers.
https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism ... rts-report
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:43 pm

airbazar wrote:

TAP doesn't cater just to Spanish or Portuguese passengers. Cancún or Punta Cana DID NOT compete with Maldives/Seychelles in a good economy. But you can bet they will now and that's my point. Lowering prices is not really as easy as you make it sound. And Southeast Asia has priced itself too high because of Chinese tourists. There's been a huge drop in demand from European visitors because prices have gone up and after this Pandemic, if we learned anything from SARS and MERS is that it will be a while until European tourists return in large numbers.
https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/tourism ... rts-report


= That is absolutely right. From their map, seems like they fly to around 75 destinations in Europe, so I think CUN will work just fine for them. Now, of course, if Coronavirus remains, who knows ... but the strategy of going after flows like CUN, CPT, and AGA seems like a nice way for TAP to diversify their portfolio. The management team is top notch, and so it is pretty big kudo for them to take a risk.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
LightChop2Chop
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:48 pm

Galwayman wrote:
- Mex (North America) > Spain via Lis is a no brainier at some stage
- yields on CPT with connections onwards are probably as good as JNB , perfectly explains the short time on the ground
- PTY with codeshares on Copa possibly JV would be very very interesting
- CUN is clearly aimed at connections from Spain

Wish TP every success , they’re one of the most interesting airlines to watch


PTY was already tried as a triangle with BOG and failed miserably.
 
XRadar98
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 4:23 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:39 am

Does anyone else question this? Now that Northern hemisphere is warming up and the pandemic should be receding a bit, is it wise to start flights south where Winter is approaching?
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:42 am

From what I realized, the new flight PDL-YYZ, which will be flown 2x weekly, is being started at the expense or reducing PDL-BOS from 5x to 3x weekly..

But If anyone can confirm the reducing of the number of PDL-BOS flights operated by TP Portugal.

Thanks

Enviado do meu ASUS_I01WD através do Tapatalk
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:50 am

LightChop2Chop wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
- Mex (North America) > Spain via Lis is a no brainier at some stage
- yields on CPT with connections onwards are probably as good as JNB , perfectly explains the short time on the ground
- PTY with codeshares on Copa possibly JV would be very very interesting
- CUN is clearly aimed at connections from Spain

Wish TP every success , they’re one of the most interesting airlines to watch


PTY was already tried as a triangle with BOG and failed miserably.


= Ya, tagging PTY with BOG always seemed like a dumb idea to me. New management though, and so far they don't seem to do these silly things.

XRadar98 wrote:
Does anyone else question this? Now that Northern hemisphere is warming up and the pandemic should be receding a bit, is it wise to start flights south where Winter is approaching?


= Actually, it is brilliant. If COVID is your logic. I mean, these flights begin in the South in November ... where it would be summer.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
XRadar98
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 4:23 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:13 am

Thanks Alex, I missed the start dates.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5757
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:30 am

abrelosojos wrote:
XRadar98 wrote:
Does anyone else question this? Now that Northern hemisphere is warming up and the pandemic should be receding a bit, is it wise to start flights south where Winter is approaching?


= Actually, it is brilliant. If COVID is your logic. I mean, these flights begin in the South in November ... where it would be summer


Nothing has proven that. Guayaquil has probably the worst Coronavirus-related situation in LatAm and has a warm and humid climate, with temperatures over +30 degrees during the last month.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:37 am

SCQ83 wrote:
abrelosojos wrote:
XRadar98 wrote:
Does anyone else question this? Now that Northern hemisphere is warming up and the pandemic should be receding a bit, is it wise to start flights south where Winter is approaching?


= Actually, it is brilliant. If COVID is your logic. I mean, these flights begin in the South in November ... where it would be summer


Nothing has proven that. Guayaquil has probably the worst Coronavirus-related situation in LatAm and has a warm and humid climate, with temperatures over +30 degrees during the last month.


= I was responding to a very specific question, and not commenting on Coronavirus, for which none of us are qualified.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10164
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP launches PDL-YYZ, AGA, CPT, and CUN

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:14 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
PTY was already tried as a triangle with BOG and failed miserably.


= Ya, tagging PTY with BOG always seemed like a dumb idea to me. New management though, and so far they don't seem to do these silly things.


Not really dumb. IIRC they couldn't fly BOG-LIS because of the altitude and PTY just by itself doesn't have enough demand so PTY by itself just wouldn't work. Panama was also providing incentives so we don't know for sure if or how much money they actually lost. TP also had a long history of triangle/tagged routes in Brazil and Africa so it was something they had been doing for a long time. They tried, it didn't work. It happens.

abrelosojos wrote:
XRadar98 wrote:
Does anyone else question this? Now that Northern hemisphere is warming up and the pandemic should be receding a bit, is it wise to start flights south where Winter is approaching?


= Actually, it is brilliant. If COVID is your logic. I mean, these flights begin in the South in November ... where it would be summer.

There is no evidence that weather by itself impacts the virus spread.
Also, these routes were in the works long before the Pandemic started. The routes may or may not work but at this time, I don't think anyone is really sure about what the aviation industry will be like in 3 months let alone in November.
 
aviationlover7
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 am

TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Sat May 02, 2020 9:46 am

Hi,

It seems like the Portuguese Government is not happy with David Neeleman's proposal to get bank loans with Gov. guarantees. Is nationalization the only option left?

Source (only in Portuguese):
https://expresso.pt/economia/2020-05-01 ... para-a-TAP
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1998
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Sat May 02, 2020 11:27 am

Or liquidation. TAP benefited from Portugal's popularity as a destination in its own right and as a stop over and transit point. Non absolutely essential travel, for 2020 at least, is dead. Portugal isn't a massive business destination. I just don't see TP survive without full nationalization down the road.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5757
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Mon May 04, 2020 9:55 pm

TAP has relaunched some routes:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-30apr20/

Routes that are not restarting are immediately are:

From LIS: Alicante, Banjul, Boa Vista, Bologna, Budapest, Caracas, Chicago, Fes, Florence, London Gatwick, Moscow, Nantes, Naples, New York JFK, Porto Alegre, San Francisco, Tangier, Washington.

From OPO: Amsterdam, Brussels, Geneva, Luxembourg, Madrid, Milan, Munich, Newark, Ponta Delgada, Rio de Janeiro, Sal, São Paulo, Zürich

From LIS, in addition to the US and some countries that might be still totally or partially closed (Russia, Cabo Verde, Venezuela), could the other ones be underperforming routes and prime candidates to be chopped?: Alicante, Banjul, Bologna, Budapest, Fes, Florence, LGW, Nantes, Naples, Porto Alegre, Tangiers.

From OPO they only keep LON, PAR, LIS and Madeira. Will TAP close their mini hub at OPO? The only reason for OPO as a second TAP hub was LIS being full. Now that is not a problem anymore.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Tue May 05, 2020 4:52 am

One good thing for TP is that LIS will not be as congested as before. They could use this opportunity to take some good slots they could use in the future. I am sure Lisbon won't be among the first destinations where airlines will flock, especially not with tourism on hold for the time being.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3580
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Tue May 05, 2020 1:55 pm

This is where TAP got caught in a bad spot renewing its fleet now, although it was needed. The A21N might end up being a workhorse to Africa (besides Maputo) and North America (besides Miami). The A321XLR could potentially make Maputo.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Tue May 05, 2020 4:37 pm

I visited TLS last summer and was really surprised by the large number of aircraft in TP colours. I then looked up what they had ordered and was again surprised. My thoughts were how can they possibly be buying all these A330's? Portugal has a very small economy so even the Government would struggle to keep TP supported.
 
abrelosojos
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Wed May 06, 2020 5:11 pm

I actually am finding TAP to be among the most mature and dynamic in handling the crisis along with potentially Emirates and SQ. Instead of flying to politically high profile places like Brasil and Angola, they immediately suspended their operations aligned with government rules, and likely balance sheet. I never thought I'd see a day where TP would stop Brasil, while LH/AF continued!

If you follow their pricing policies close in, they are clearly testing markets, and having no issues walking away from things that don't make sense. I am also finding their pricing higher on several core routes than competitors which reflect that they clearly do not believe consumers are buying air tickets and finding discounting pointless.

They have a very good management, so besides the usual left wing rhetoric we see in Portugal, I am sure TAP may actually be one of the winners here. The 321-LR is arguably the right aircraft to begin operations, especially to North America, North East Brasil, and Africa. No other airline can achieve that without exposing high gauge widebody fleet.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
Tdan
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 07, 2020 11:41 am

abrelosojos wrote:
I actually am finding TAP to be among the most mature and dynamic in handling the crisis along with potentially Emirates and SQ. Instead of flying to politically high profile places like Brasil and Angola, they immediately suspended their operations aligned with government rules, and likely balance sheet. I never thought I'd see a day where TP would stop Brasil, while LH/AF continued!

If you follow their pricing policies close in, they are clearly testing markets, and having no issues walking away from things that don't make sense. I am also finding their pricing higher on several core routes than competitors which reflect that they clearly do not believe consumers are buying air tickets and finding discounting pointless.

They have a very good management, so besides the usual left wing rhetoric we see in Portugal, I am sure TAP may actually be one of the winners here. The 321-LR is arguably the right aircraft to begin operations, especially to North America, North East Brasil, and Africa. No other airline can achieve that without exposing high gauge widebody fleet.

Saludos,
Alex


Their issue is not tactical in nature, but rather timing and broader strategy. The cash cost of the fleet rollover is at its most critical period when utilization should be ~17h on the A330NEOs. Add to that the mixed funding mechanisms required to roll the fleet in such a short period of time and you have an airline that has no choice but to fly. The pricing and tactics you describe make a difference at the margin but do not materially impact the current cash burn rate.

Not sure I see how TAP survives without nationalization or significant reinvestment without a Summer season. They needed to print cash more than anything this summer and will not have that opportunity. Portugal is in a tough spot to come up with the funds and I’m not sure Neeleman is as engaged as before with Breeze sitting on a golden opportunity in the states.
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 07, 2020 12:08 pm

Tdan wrote:
Not sure I see how TAP survives without nationalization or significant reinvestment without a Summer season. They needed to print cash more than anything this summer and will not have that opportunity. Portugal is in a tough spot to come up with the funds and I’m not sure Neeleman is as engaged as before with Breeze sitting on a golden opportunity in the states.

Right now nationalization appears to be off the table. From what I gather there's little appetite in Portugal to nationalize the airline. All indicators point to a rescue plan by the government like all other governments are doing for their home airlines. I suspect the delay has more to do with regional politics than actual financial factor as in Portugal every time there is a discussion around TAP, the Porto vs. Lisbon politics tend to drag things longer than necessary.

And on the topic of foreign visitors to Portugal, this article in Forbes shows that the country is well ahead of anyone else in the region when it comes to opening up for tourism. Whether the tourists will come or not is a different story.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/annabel/20 ... 18a3542bb2
 
SCQ83
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 07, 2020 12:30 pm

Tdan wrote:
Not sure I see how TAP survives without nationalization or significant reinvestment without a Summer season. They needed to print cash more than anything this summer and will not have that opportunity. Portugal is in a tough spot to come up with the funds and I’m not sure Neeleman is as engaged as before with Breeze sitting on a golden opportunity in the states.


They lost money in 2019 where everybody else was in positive numbers.

viewtopic.php?t=1431749

I see a government rescue as problematic with the current TAP and Portugal within the EU. TAP is a huge carrier for a small country like Portugal; more akin to Emirates or KLM than to Lufthansa or Iberia.

Germany has to rescue Lufthansa. Portugal has to rescue TAP. The problem with Portugal rescuing somebody is that that money ultimately comes from the EU (aka Germany). Will Germany allow Portugal to rescue TAP so TAP can keep undercutting Lufthansa's fares?

Not saying that TAP will disappear, but they might obligate them to return to a more "ratiional" size. And not the current TAP that was to have 5 daily New York flights this summer.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 07, 2020 1:11 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Tdan wrote:
Not sure I see how TAP survives without nationalization or significant reinvestment without a Summer season. They needed to print cash more than anything this summer and will not have that opportunity. Portugal is in a tough spot to come up with the funds and I’m not sure Neeleman is as engaged as before with Breeze sitting on a golden opportunity in the states.


They lost money in 2019 where everybody else was in positive numbers.

viewtopic.php?t=1431749

I see a government rescue as problematic with the current TAP and Portugal within the EU. TAP is a huge carrier for a small country like Portugal; more akin to Emirates or KLM than to Lufthansa or Iberia.

Germany has to rescue Lufthansa. Portugal has to rescue TAP. The problem with Portugal rescuing somebody is that that money ultimately comes from the EU (aka Germany). Will Germany allow Portugal to rescue TAP so TAP can keep undercutting Lufthansa's fares?

Not saying that TAP will disappear, but they might obligate them to return to a more "ratiional" size. And not the current TAP that was to have 5 daily New York flights this summer.


5 daily flights to New York? I know it was EWR (2x LIS, 1x OPO), and JFK-LIS (OPO A21N, everything else A339), but where was the 5th frequency? At least they got some sense and are down-sizing to just 1 daily (from July) A21N, but they now have way too many wide-bodies (19 A339s and 7 A332s)...and not enough long-haul configured A21Ns (although theoretically, some of the Europe-configured Cabin Flex frames could be reconfigured internationally).
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 07, 2020 2:22 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Germany has to rescue Lufthansa. Portugal has to rescue TAP. The problem with Portugal rescuing somebody is that that money ultimately comes from the EU (aka Germany). Will Germany allow Portugal to rescue TAP so TAP can keep undercutting Lufthansa's fares?

Not saying that TAP will disappear, but they might obligate them to return to a more "ratiional" size. And not the current TAP that was to have 5 daily New York flights this summer.


That's a pretty ignorant statement.
For starters Portugal buys far more from Germany than Germany buys from Portugal. That shiny new Airbus fleet didn't come cheap.
In 2018 the EU (not Germany) spent 5 billion Euros in Portugal, or the equivalent of 2.55% of GDP.
By contrast travel and tourism accounted for 19.1% of GDP in 2018.
The Netherlands was/is the largest per capita contributor to the EU budget (not Germany). So I suppose, according to your thought process the Dutch should deny Germany's rescue to Lufthansa :lol:
It's not that black and white. That's the whole point of a Union. It goes both ways.
As for the 5 daily flights to NYC, it's just as absurd as the LH group's 5 daily flights they were planning to BOS for this Summer. Personally I don't think either is absurd if the market exists.
 
danipawa
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 14, 2020 8:02 pm

Airbus A320 -214 2178 CS-TNP TAP Air Portugal for return to lessor mid-jun20, parked at FAO (+ A321‑211 1713 CS-TJG in late-jun20, parked at LIS) ex 9H-AER

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4
 
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mercure1
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 21, 2020 6:07 pm

TAP says that it could lose up to 1,700 workers and more than 30 planes, reducing its fleet by 25% as part of restructuring.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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AECM
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 21, 2020 6:21 pm

If possible i think the reduction of the fleet will be made by accelerating the retirement of the older aircraft, TAP currently has 17 x A319 with an average age of 20,5 years and 10 x A320CEO that are between 16 and 21 years old. Also the 4 x EMB195 were also planned to leave, the 8 x AT72 will probably shrink and the remaining 7 x A332 with the operating cost of the A339 being similar can also be a possibility.
 
AF022
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 21, 2020 8:01 pm

mercure1 wrote:
TAP says that it could lose up to 1,700 workers and more than 30 planes, reducing its fleet by 25% as part of restructuring.


What routes are most likely to be abandoned? Are they talking about giving up wide-body, narrow-body, or both?
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Thu May 21, 2020 8:54 pm

AF022 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
TAP says that it could lose up to 1,700 workers and more than 30 planes, reducing its fleet by 25% as part of restructuring.


What routes are most likely to be abandoned? Are they talking about giving up wide-body, narrow-body, or both?

No idea what routes will be given up. A 25% reduction in aircraft could also translate into fewer frequencies.
The following article states 8 long haul and 23 short haul aircraft which is in line with the suggestion that was made above by 'AECM' that they will just retire the oldest planes in the fleet.
https://rr.sapo.pt/2020/05/20/economia/ ... ia/193513/

factsonly wrote:
An often repeated mistake is to look at the geographic size of a country, when it is the size of a nation's economy that determines airline size.

In my opinion it's neither although having both a large economy and a large population should in theory help but not always. Case in point: Italy, Brazil, South Africa, Indonesia, India, etc, etc, etc. Heck even France. When was the last time AF (without KL), turned a profit?
At the end of the day a company will succeed if it's well managed and fail if it's poorly managed. In this particular sector an airline from a small country can succeed. KLM is a good example: The majority of KLM fliers are not Dutch. Likewise, the majority of TAP's fliers are not Portuguese. ET is another good example. It's a well run and profitable airline, about the same size as TAP but based in a country where the per capita GDP is barely $1,000.
If an airline is well managed and it has a well managed supporting infrastructure, it doesn't matter where its hub is located (economically).
In the case of TAP, that doesn't happen. I think the airline is decently managed now but they are handicapped by decades of poor management and government interference, and the complete lack of anything resembling a modern and efficient hub from which to operate. It's impossible for it to even turn a profit when it constantly has to pay out penalties for delayed or cancelled flights, lost luggage, or when its labor goes on strike every year.
If the country were to fix the airport situation and the government stop pandering to labor every election year, TAP might have a chance.
 
SCQ83
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Fri May 22, 2020 6:35 am

AF022 wrote:
What routes are most likely to be abandoned? Are they talking about giving up wide-body, narrow-body, or both?


Given how disproportionally big TAP is for a country like Portugal, I think it is easy to achieve that:

1) The OPO hub. TAP was building OPO as a second hub with some connectivity and +15 routes. For instance they were able to sell MAD-OPO-EWR with reasonable times. It is worth noting that now that flights have resumed for TAP, they have resumed most routes out of LIS and only 2 international routes out of OPO (Paris and London), plus LIS and islands. OPO was an anomaly, when you see the likes of British Airways, Iberia or Air France (in much bigger countries) not bothering with a second international hub.

2) Thin routes. Last year already TAP cut a few recent routes (CGN, BSL, FEZ, OTP, LFW, etc). Some of those routes like Fez or Lomé were what I have called before pure Turkish/Emirates style (what is the local market between Lisbon and Fes/Lomé?).

3) Over-served routes. I have mentioned previously the case of New York. TAP was to fly this summer 4 or 5 NYC flights. It should be easy to cut frequencies here and there.
 
continental004
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Re: TAP Air Portugal's post COVID-19 crisis

Fri May 22, 2020 6:51 am

SCQ83 wrote:
AF022 wrote:
What routes are most likely to be abandoned? Are they talking about giving up wide-body, narrow-body, or both?


Given how disproportionally big TAP is for a country like Portugal, I think it is easy to achieve that:

1) The OPO hub. TAP was building OPO as a second hub with some connectivity and +15 routes. For instance they were able to sell MAD-OPO-EWR with reasonable times. It is worth noting that now that flights have resumed for TAP, they have resumed most routes out of LIS and only 2 international routes out of OPO (Paris and London), plus LIS and islands. OPO was an anomaly, when you see the likes of British Airways, Iberia or Air France (in much bigger countries) not bothering with a second international hub.

2) Thin routes. Last year already TAP cut a few recent routes (CGN, BSL, FEZ, OTP, LFW, etc). Some of those routes like Fez or Lomé were what I have called before pure Turkish/Emirates style (what is the local market between Lisbon and Fes/Lomé?).

3) Over-served routes. I have mentioned previously the case of New York. TAP was to fly this summer 4 or 5 NYC flights. It should be easy to cut frequencies here and there.


The OPO hub only got as big as it did because LIS is too small and congested for expansion in pre-Covid times.

LGW served as an secondary international hub for BA with a number of long haul routes.
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