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kipfilet
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:25 pm

TAP is negotiating to return of some of its airplanes and is actively trying to reduce the size of its fleet:
https://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/empresa ... -de-avioes
 
airbazar
Posts: 10478
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:02 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
13:05 departure from SFO, 08:15 arrival in LIS
I'm sure it's good for connections, but oh boy not good for jetlag.
Such an early afternoon departure means that most passengers can't sleep much during the flight and then they land very early in the morning and still have the full day ahead of them.

It's a red-eye flight like any other. TATL flights tend to arrive in Europe early in the morning. The earlier the better.
 
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mercure1
Topic Author
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:13 pm

Portugal’s government will vote on the restructuring plan of TAP Air Portugal, which calls for a reduction of fleet, atleast 2,000 job redundancies and salary cuts of 25%.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1590
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:31 pm

Is pay at TAP for non-boardroom roles particularly high ?
If salaries are being cut by 25% for ordinary employees.... that's a strong incentive to go look for a job elsewhere. Does the Portuguese Govt want to shrink TAP down a lot further than the published restructuring ?
 
SCQ83
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:54 am

It seems that Royal Air Maroc and TAAG have definitely cut Porto. So other than Marrakech on Ryanair, OPO has lost all its African links. And other than Turkish (which now will only return in S21), it has lost also its links to the wider MENA region (Emirates to Dubai and several carriers which tried Tel Aviv before COVID).

Ryanair seems to be further trimming its OPO network, and 8 additional routes seem to be gone: AGP, BRE, CLE, DTM, FKB, FRA, PDL and TER. That is in addition to 12 routes that Ryanair has cut over the last few COVID months: BVE, CCF, CPH, GNB, LIL, LRH, SXB, NAP, NUE, STR, TLS and TSF. So unless there are last-minute changes, Ryanair has cancelled a total of 20 routes in 2020. easyJet is also chopping AGP and STR.

Combined with the routes cancelled by TAP over the last few months (AMS, BCN, BRU, GVA, LCY, LUX, MAD, MXP, MUC, ZRH) and some flagship carriers that have left the airport (Emirates, Azul, TAAG, Royal Air Maroc) there must be well over 30 routes chopped from a year ago.

The OPO bubble has popped.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:55 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is pay at TAP for non-boardroom roles particularly high ?
If salaries are being cut by 25% for ordinary employees.... that's a strong incentive to go look for a job elsewhere. Does the Portuguese Govt want to shrink TAP down a lot further than the published restructuring ?


You are talking about Portugal, not the US or Germany. There is no other airline in Portugal other than White Airways or bases of the likes of EasyJet, Ryanair, etc. Not much choice.
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:20 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Combined with the routes cancelled by TAP over the last few months (AMS, BCN, BRU, GVA, LCY, LUX, MAD, MXP, MUC, ZRH) and some flagship carriers that have left the airport (Emirates, Azul, TAAG, Royal Air Maroc) there must be well over 30 routes chopped from a year ago.
The OPO bubble has popped.


Sad news, not just for the city of Oporto but also for its area of influence that includes some places in Galicia. So they've gone from hero to zero in just a few months.

Do you think that some of these routes will come back in a post-COVID world? Late summer 2021, winter 2021-2022?

Do you think that any gallego airport can "benefit" (wierd choice of word) from this? I mean, there is a market of several million people that has not disappeared with the flights.
 
SCQ83
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:26 pm

So so far those seems to be the cancelled routes in OPO since all this started. I count 44 (!) cancelled routes in OPO over the last few year. 25 cities (and 27 airports) that are no longer served by any other carrier. And 4 countries "lost" (Algeria, Angola, Denmark, UAE).

1. Algiers (AH) - Unserved
2. Amsterdam (TP)
3. Barcelona (TP)
4. Bremen (FR) - Unserved
5. Brive (FR) - Unserved
6. Brussels (TP)
7. Carcassonne (FR) - Unserved
8. Casablanca (AT) - Unserved
9. Clermont Ferrand (FR) - Unserved
10. Copenhagen (FR) - Unserved
11. Dortmund (FR)
12. Dubai (EK) - Unserved
13. Frankfurt (FR)
14. Genève (TP)
15. Gran Canaria (FR) - Unserved
16. Grenoble (FR) - Unserved
17. Hamburg (FR) - Unserved
18. Karlsruhe (FR) - Unserved
19. Katowice (W6) - Unserved
20. La Rochelle (FR) - Unserved
21. Lille (FR) - Unserved
22. London City (TP) - Unserved airport / served city
23. Luanda (DT) - Unserved
24. Lyon (TP)
25. Luxembourg (TP)
26. Madrid (TP)
27. Málaga (FR) - Unserved
28. Málaga (U2) - Unserved
29. Milan Malpensa (TP)
30. Munich (TP)
31. Naples (FR) - Unserved
32. Nürnberg (FR) - Unserved
33. Ponta Delgada (FR)
34. Ponta Delgada (TP)
35. São Paulo Viracopos (AD) - Unserved airport / served city
36. Strasbourg (FR) - Unserved
37. Stuttgart (U2) - Unserved
38. Stuttgart (FR) - Unserved
39. Terceira (FR)
40. Toulouse (FR)
41. Treviso/Venice (FR) - Unserved
42. Vienna (LV)
43. Wroclaw (W6) - Unserved
44. Zürich (TP)
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:52 pm

TP used to fly from OPO to SID (Ilha do Sal)... that flight is also gone, it seems.
If so, should also be in your list
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:57 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
So so far those seems to be the cancelled routes in OPO since all this started. I count 44 (!) cancelled routes in OPO over the last few year. 25 cities (and 27 airports) that are no longer served by any other carrier. And 4 countries "lost" (Algeria, Angola, Denmark, UAE).

1. Algiers (AH) - Unserved
2. Amsterdam (TP)
3. Barcelona (TP)
4. Bremen (FR) - Unserved
5. Brive (FR) - Unserved
6. Brussels (TP)
7. Carcassonne (FR) - Unserved
8. Casablanca (AT) - Unserved
9. Clermont Ferrand (FR) - Unserved
10. Copenhagen (FR) - Unserved
11. Dortmund (FR)
12. Dubai (EK) - Unserved
13. Frankfurt (FR)
14. Genève (TP)
15. Gran Canaria (FR) - Unserved
16. Grenoble (FR) - Unserved
17. Hamburg (FR) - Unserved
18. Karlsruhe (FR) - Unserved
19. Katowice (W6) - Unserved
20. La Rochelle (FR) - Unserved
21. Lille (FR) - Unserved
22. London City (TP) - Unserved airport / served city
23. Luanda (DT) - Unserved
24. Lyon (TP)
25. Luxembourg (TP)
26. Madrid (TP)
27. Málaga (FR) - Unserved
28. Málaga (U2) - Unserved
29. Milan Malpensa (TP)
30. Munich (TP)
31. Naples (FR) - Unserved
32. Nürnberg (FR) - Unserved
33. Ponta Delgada (FR)
34. Ponta Delgada (TP)
35. São Paulo Viracopos (AD) - Unserved airport / served city
36. Strasbourg (FR) - Unserved
37. Stuttgart (U2) - Unserved
38. Stuttgart (FR) - Unserved
39. Terceira (FR)
40. Toulouse (FR)
41. Treviso/Venice (FR) - Unserved
42. Vienna (LV)
43. Wroclaw (W6) - Unserved
44. Zürich (TP)


Sounds like a great opportunity for VOLOTEA to set up shop there!
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:32 am

jmmadrid wrote:
TP used to fly from OPO to SID (Ilha do Sal)... that flight is also gone, it seems.
If so, should also be in your list


Interesting. So that makes 45 destinations, 26 cities (and 28 airports) and 5 countries (Algeria, Angola, Cabo Verde, Denmark, UAE).

I wouldn't very surprised that OPO is the airport in Iberia that has lost (in proportion) more destinations and carriers over 2020.

I remember when I wrote here that OPO was a massive bubble waiting to pop and I was told anything by the OPO fanboys :lol: It was clear that Emirates or two carriers to New York were way above OPO's weight.

Ironically I think that TAP and LIS have helped to fuel this bubble over the last few years. TAP expanding operations in OPO made other carriers more interested to compete with them. And LIS being "full" made also carriers (read Emirates, United) more willing to expand in OPO instead of adding more flights to LIS. Now that is finished.

I wouldn't be also surprised that other "secondary" carriers (like Finnair or Aegean) also leave the airport over the next few months, and refocus on LIS.

jmmadrid wrote:
Sounds like a great opportunity for VOLOTEA to set up shop there!


Well Volotea has a single route to BIO which is only coming back in summer. Many people (starting in this thread :) ) overestimate OPO. Their stronghold is the massive Portuguese emigration to Western Europe, North America and some countries in Africa and LatAm, which is unparalleled anywhere else in Western Europe (unless you take into consideration Eastern Europe - Western Europe routes). That is why OPO is the busiest route out of Luxembourg (for instance). Or those routes to Canada or EWR (massive Portuguese migration in NE US and Canada). Nothing else. But when you take emigration out of the equation, it falls like a house of cards. It cannot even maintain a place like Málaga which is a 1-hour flight and Iberia's 4th largest airport (and has no train competition). Or any Scandinavian destination (CPH being chopped). Or Italy (which has much fewer migration compared to France, UK or Germany) already being massively cut and has basically kept the basics (Milan and Rome).
 
aviator2000
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:10 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
jmmadrid wrote:
TP used to fly from OPO to SID (Ilha do Sal)... that flight is also gone, it seems.
If so, should also be in your list


Interesting. So that makes 45 destinations, 26 cities (and 28 airports) and 5 countries (Algeria, Angola, Cabo Verde, Denmark, UAE).

I wouldn't very surprised that OPO is the airport in Iberia that has lost (in proportion) more destinations and carriers over 2020.

I remember when I wrote here that OPO was a massive bubble waiting to pop and I was told anything by the OPO fanboys :lol: It was clear that Emirates or two carriers to New York were way above OPO's weight.

Ironically I think that TAP and LIS have helped to fuel this bubble over the last few years. TAP expanding operations in OPO made other carriers more interested to compete with them. And LIS being "full" made also carriers (read Emirates, United) more willing to expand in OPO instead of adding more flights to LIS. Now that is finished.

I wouldn't be also surprised that other "secondary" carriers (like Finnair or Aegean) also leave the airport over the next few months, and refocus on LIS.

jmmadrid wrote:
Sounds like a great opportunity for VOLOTEA to set up shop there!


Well Volotea has a single route to BIO which is only coming back in summer. Many people (starting in this thread :) ) overestimate OPO. Their stronghold is the massive Portuguese emigration to Western Europe, North America and some countries in Africa and LatAm, which is unparalleled anywhere else in Western Europe (unless you take into consideration Eastern Europe - Western Europe routes). That is why OPO is the busiest route out of Luxembourg (for instance). Or those routes to Canada or EWR (massive Portuguese migration in NE US and Canada). Nothing else. But when you take emigration out of the equation, it falls like a house of cards. It cannot even maintain a place like Málaga which is a 1-hour flight and Iberia's 4th largest airport (and has no train competition). Or any Scandinavian destination (CPH being chopped). Or Italy (which has much fewer migration compared to France, UK or Germany) already being massively cut and has basically kept the basics (Milan and Rome).

I am a bit sceptical about your statements. It may be true that OPO was receiving lots of new flights/airlines/destinations during 2018-2019 and that some of these flights didn't correspond to the actual demand the city had. However 2019 was a year in which lots of airports experienced this boost in the number of flights and destinations and that was mostly because of the "explosion" of tourists visiting Europe who where filling up these flights.

I thus don't think that it is rational to compare the amount of destinations the airport has lost this year. All airports are loosing destinations during the pandemic, some more and some less but they are ALL loosing destinations. I am sure that a big part of these destinations will be recovered in the upcoming years, not only in Porto, but in all airports across the globe as tourism pics up again. Its just a matter of time.
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:28 pm

Aviator 2000 has a great point, instead of concentration on one airport during a pandemic, it’s a trend seen in most if not all airports in the world right now. Yes it’s loosing destinations and airlines, but airlines themselves are cutting costs, fleets, destinations.
Ryanair is having a massing cull of routes at the moment.
I’m sure OPO will bounce back amongst many airport worldwide
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:38 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
I am a bit sceptical about your statements. It may be true that OPO was receiving lots of new flights/airlines/destinations during 2018-2019 and that some of these flights didn't correspond to the actual demand the city had. However 2019 was a year in which lots of airports experienced this boost in the number of flights and destinations and that was mostly because of the "explosion" of tourists visiting Europe who where filling up these flights.


There was no tourism explosion in "a lot of airports" in 2019. Each airport has its dynamics. MAD or BCN had a post-Spanish crisis explosion (in terms of traffic and new carriers/routes) around 2014/17 and little was added in terms of new carriers or major routes (other than the random Wizz or Ryanair route) in 2018/19.

OPO was a late comer (e.g. Emirates or United) because it was an airport same carriers added when they didn't have much left to serve in Europe and they had to be creative and develop new markets. When Emirates or United added OPO they really didn't have much left (viable) in Southern Europe (and where EK could launch flights with the bilateral - for instance France -). OPO bubble was a mix of stuff:

1. TAP being big there (including long-haul such as EWR, GIG, GRU); and that long-haul gives an edge to the airport. Long-haul at OPO was disproportionally big for its size (EWR - 2 carriers, GIG, GRU, VCP, LAD, DXB, YYZ, YUL).

2. Lisbon being full pre-COVID which made carriers more willing to split operations.

3. The massive VFR traffic which creates a very "fixed"/stable market which is very attractive for carriers. So Ryanair or easyJet have 15 or 20 "safe" routes that will operate no matter what (like now with COVID) and then they can add something on top of that to develop new markets (whether it is Ibiza, Warsaw or Copenhagen; which now are mostly gone).

4. The investors' boom (Golden Visa) that Portugal has been very active to develop, so flights were part of that. Like those (failed) flights to Tel Aviv in several carriers to attract Sephardic Israelis to live/travel around Northern Portugal. And of course the city-break boom (like many cities around Europe with Ryanair).

aviator2000 wrote:
I thus don't think that it is rational to compare the amount of destinations the airport has lost this year. All airports are loosing destinations during the pandemic, some more and some less but they are ALL loosing destinations. I am sure that a big part of these destinations will be recovered in the upcoming years, not only in Porto, but in all airports across the globe as tourism pics up again. Its just a matter of time.


How many routes/carriers have lost Madrid, Barcelona or Lisbon? Far fewer than OPO despite having from x2 to x4 times the passengers on a regular year. OPO is an outlier in a bad way.

Btw I don't think SCQ has lost a single route over this year; in fact this month there were 4 new routes (LPA on VY/I2, TFN on I2 and ORY in TO) and one new carrier (Transavia). So not all airports are losing destinations; some are even getting new ones :).
 
davidjohnson6
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:23 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Btw I don't think SCQ has lost a single route over this year


I could be wrong, but did Santiago de Compostela, just to the north of Porto have the following routes in Dec-2019, and are they still present ?
Funchal / Madeira (FNC)
Mahon (MAH)
Paris-CDG - might have been replaced with Paris Orly
Rome-Fiumicino (FCO)

Porto is a much larger airport than SCQ so one expects a longer list of routes cuts than a smaller airport.... my point is that no airport in the region was immune. Porto is not a special case
 
aviator2000
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:48 pm

SCQ83, you could be right, but you can't say an airport was overserved after most of the routes chopped have been cancelled during a global pandemic. That's a statement which can't be done without seeing how the airports recover once the pandemic is over. It's just not valid atm.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:51 pm

Agree, also in TLL air traffic has just vanished during pandemic. We'll see after recovery how many routes will be restored. At first at loss since people won't fly as much as before
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:11 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
SCQ83, you could be right, but you can't say an airport was overserved after most of the routes chopped have been cancelled during a global pandemic. That's a statement which can't be done without seeing how the airports recover once the pandemic is over. It's just not valid atm.

Slightly concentration on one airport example, trying to prove a point over a so called OPO bubble.
Fairer to compare things maybe a year or 2 down the road when the industry has recovered.
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:14 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Btw I don't think SCQ has lost a single route over this year


I could be wrong, but did Santiago de Compostela, just to the north of Porto have the following routes in Dec-2019, and are they still present ?
Funchal / Madeira (FNC)
Mahon (MAH)
Paris-CDG - might have been replaced with Paris Orly
Rome-Fiumicino (FCO)

Porto is a much larger airport than SCQ so one expects a longer list of routes cuts than a smaller airport.... my point is that no airport in the region was immune. Porto is not a special case


Not a fair comparison of 2 different markets and one airport or just over 2m pax to an airport of just over 19m pax.
Doesn’t work like that, routes were selling before, perhaps not the best yields on some routes but some if not all will make a return.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1590
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:57 pm

santos - I wasn't trying to do an equal comparison between Porto and Santiago de Compostela. I just wanted to stop SCQ83 claiming that his favourite airport was somehow immune from the pandemic ! :-)
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Btw I don't think SCQ has lost a single route over this year


I could be wrong, but did Santiago de Compostela, just to the north of Porto have the following routes in Dec-2019, and are they still present ?
Funchal / Madeira (FNC)
Mahon (MAH)
Paris-CDG - might have been replaced with Paris Orly
Rome-Fiumicino (FCO)


Funchal is the only one that was not operated in 2020 due to the COVID restrictions (not much point to fly to beach in a foreign country when there are plenty of them in Spain). This is a 1-week "scheduled charter" by Air Nostrum.

MAH in 2019 was operated by Air Nostrum. In 2020 by Volotea and Vueling (consequently number of seats boomed). Same for Ibiza which was not operated in 2019.

Paris in 2020 was operated by Vueling. They just moved temporarily CDG to ORY because with COVID Vueling is only in ORY. Transavia started this month ORY-SCQ.

And Rome is operated by Ryanair (SCQ-CIA) after Vueling closed their FCO base before COVID.
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:02 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
santos - I wasn't trying to do an equal comparison between Porto and Santiago de Compostela. I just wanted to stop SCQ83 claiming that his favourite airport was somehow immune from the pandemic ! :-)

Sorry, it wasn’t really aimed for you as we all well know now how wonderful SCQ is doing and deviating from the main topic
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:09 pm

santos wrote:
Not a fair comparison of 2 different markets and one airport or just over 2m pax to an airport of just over 19m pax.
Doesn’t work like that, routes were selling before, perhaps not the best yields on some routes but some if not all will make a return.


SCQ had 2.9 million PAX in 2019. OPO had 13.1 million PAX in 2019. Where do you get the 2 VS 19 million? :roll:

But we know OPO is the best thing since sliced bread.
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:49 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
santos wrote:
Not a fair comparison of 2 different markets and one airport or just over 2m pax to an airport of just over 19m pax.
Doesn’t work like that, routes were selling before, perhaps not the best yields on some routes but some if not all will make a return.


SCQ had 2.9 million PAX in 2019. OPO had 13.1 million PAX in 2019. Where do you get the 2 VS 19 million? :roll:

But we know OPO is the best thing since sliced bread.

It was my mistake, 13m and not 19m.
I’m not saying OPO is the best airport(it’s not even my local airport), just not having a personal bashing at it with basic statists.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:50 pm

I don't get why when in this thread I write anything about OPO, their fanboys attack SCQ. :roll:
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:05 pm

Or perhaps comparisons should be left out as I’m
sure we can all come up with lists of airports that have lost 30+ routes this year
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:28 pm

I am not a fan of Oporto, and didn't even wrote about that, but I am a regular reader, and I can easily understand why it happens....

Think about how you write and you will understand.....

Enviado do meu ASUS_I01WD através do Tapatalk
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:07 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I don't get why when in this thread I write anything about OPO, their fanboys attack SCQ. :roll:


Because half the time you are OPO doom and gloom fanboy. Your message almost ends up becoming irrelevant and dismissed. Again, you are bashing OPO during a pandemic as if these are normal times. lol Breaking news: there is nothing normal about 2020. Every airport saw high double digit declines and double digit route cancellations. Nothing you have said in the past has come true as what caused the drop in traffic is caused by the pandemic only. So all your points are not valid and never were. The bubble is only in your head. Every airport is challenged right now. So let's see who recovers quickly and who does not. Have a crystal ball?

All airports are in panic if not in survival mode, going through massive cost cutting due to the lower passenger rates and routes. It is what it is...
 
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fidelidade
Posts: 77
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:56 pm

I am just impressed our management is doing what is right for TAP, and not politicians want. I admire our commercial leadership now because they do what is right for TAP and all of Portugal.
 
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AirCbp
Posts: 61
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Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:37 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
jmmadrid wrote:
TP used to fly from OPO to SID (Ilha do Sal)... that flight is also gone, it seems.
If so, should also be in your list


Interesting. So that makes 45 destinations, 26 cities (and 28 airports) and 5 countries (Algeria, Angola, Cabo Verde, Denmark, UAE).

I wouldn't very surprised that OPO is the airport in Iberia that has lost (in proportion) more destinations and carriers over 2020.

I remember when I wrote here that OPO was a massive bubble waiting to pop and I was told anything by the OPO fanboys :lol: It was clear that Emirates or two carriers to New York were way above OPO's weight.

Ironically I think that TAP and LIS have helped to fuel this bubble over the last few years. TAP expanding operations in OPO made other carriers more interested to compete with them. And LIS being "full" made also carriers (read Emirates, United) more willing to expand in OPO instead of adding more flights to LIS. Now that is finished.

I wouldn't be also surprised that other "secondary" carriers (like Finnair or Aegean) also leave the airport over the next few months, and refocus on LIS.

jmmadrid wrote:
Sounds like a great opportunity for VOLOTEA to set up shop there!


Well Volotea has a single route to BIO which is only coming back in summer. Many people (starting in this thread :) ) overestimate OPO. Their stronghold is the massive Portuguese emigration to Western Europe, North America and some countries in Africa and LatAm, which is unparalleled anywhere else in Western Europe (unless you take into consideration Eastern Europe - Western Europe routes). That is why OPO is the busiest route out of Luxembourg (for instance). Or those routes to Canada or EWR (massive Portuguese migration in NE US and Canada). Nothing else. But when you take emigration out of the equation, it falls like a house of cards. It cannot even maintain a place like Málaga which is a 1-hour flight and Iberia's 4th largest airport (and has no train competition). Or any Scandinavian destination (CPH being chopped). Or Italy (which has much fewer migration compared to France, UK or Germany) already being massively cut and has basically kept the basics (Milan and Rome).

I am a bit sceptical about your statements. It may be true that OPO was receiving lots of new flights/airlines/destinations during 2018-2019 and that some of these flights didn't correspond to the actual demand the city had. However 2019 was a year in which lots of airports experienced this boost in the number of flights and destinations and that was mostly because of the "explosion" of tourists visiting Europe who where filling up these flights.

I thus don't think that it is rational to compare the amount of destinations the airport has lost this year. All airports are loosing destinations during the pandemic, some more and some less but they are ALL loosing destinations. I am sure that a big part of these destinations will be recovered in the upcoming years, not only in Porto, but in all airports across the globe as tourism pics up again. Its just a matter of time.


Of course. OPO will be back to its former glory when this crisis is overcome, and before another crisis comes. It's the dynamics of economics.

Passengers will want to fly again in and out of Porto, airlines will again serve OPO as the largest regional airport in Northwest Portugal/Spain and the European and Atlantic airports it has been linked to will grow in passenger numbers too. I wouldn't be too worried.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3548
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:41 pm

fidelidade wrote:
I am just impressed our management is doing what is right for TAP, and not politicians want. I admire our commercial leadership now because they do what is right for TAP and all of Portugal.


Which is cutting multiple routes at OPO while rebuilding the network at LIS (restarting routes/adding double daily frequencies)?
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:35 pm

Which double daily frequencies?

Most routes out of Lisbon are operating with much less frequencies than before covid.. and even after this, with the reestructing plan which has been submitted to EU, cuts on frequencies will come true, for sure.....

And for sure OPO Will have some routes restarted too as soon as the pandemic times start to get less intense

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SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:19 am

A few months ago OPO fanboys just denied that OPO was "in trouble". Six months later with nearly 50 routes chopped (must be a leader in Spain/Portugal) we start with wishful thinking that OPO will "come back". In any case, it would be interesting to debate to which "former glory". 2015 when it had 8 million PAX? 2010 with 5?

boeingbus wrote:
Because half the time you are OPO doom and gloom fanboy. Your message almost ends up becoming irrelevant and dismissed. Again, you are bashing OPO during a pandemic as if these are normal times.


Well this is a Portugal thread. What do you want to discuss? AUS? SIN? On the other hand, it doesn't seem that at FAO or LIS there is much going on. E.g. most TAP or long-haul legacy routes at LIS are still there. Unless you want to discuss (again) all the new summer 2021 that TAP is launching in Lisbon. :)

boeingbus wrote:
Breaking news: there is nothing normal about 2020. Every airport saw high double digit declines and double digit route cancellations. Nothing you have said in the past has come true as what caused the drop in traffic is caused by the pandemic only. So all your points are not valid and never were. The bubble is only in your head. Every airport is challenged right now. So let's see who recovers quickly and who does not. Have a crystal ball?.


Not really. Not many airports have lost a legacy hub during the pandemic (TAP). In fact legacies have been expanding in secondary airports to compensate the missing connecting passengers in their main hub, or adding more leisure routes. A good comparison is Greece and Aegean (a relatively similar country to Portugal); Aegean is expanding in 2021 in SKG and the islands. And TAP hub in OPO meant a lot of passengers. OPO-MAD on TAP was due to be up to 6 daily flights before COVID. That is a lot of passengers that (at least for the time being) nobody seems very keen on getting back. That is all gone.

But it is not only TAP. OPO is the only Emirates cancellation in Southern Europe. Royal Air Maroc has cancelled OPO while they have kept "smaller" airports like VLC in Iberia (and the other day they announced new Tanger-Spain routes... so contrary to what you are writing, carriers keep adding new routes for 2021; like TAP in Lisbon). Etc etc. It seems that carriers have reduced / dropped OPO (other than the VFR routes) at a much faster rate than, let's say, LIS or many other airports in Spain.
 
santos
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:15 am

Despite many replies saying that the airport in question will bounce back and that many airports are in the same position unfortunately the whole EK leaving OPO is now a big deal, along with a few other airlines. It’s just the constant doom and gloom from personal views, no real facts as it’s just too soon.
And no point comparing Portugal to Greece or OPO to SKG. Different markets
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:15 am

Even if it would go back to 5 milion pax, for sure it would have more passengers than LCG, VGO and SCQ all together...

Even if there are not that many cancellations in some airports, the number of passengers by flight is less....

This is what it is... Cannot make numbers work on the opposite direction.....

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Pt56
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:57 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:52 pm

efpmeneses wrote:
Even if it would go back to 5 milion pax, for sure it would have more passengers than LCG, VGO and SCQ all together...

Even if there are not that many cancellations in some airports, the number of passengers by flight is less....

This is what it is... Cannot make numbers work on the opposite direction.....

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Add that to the fact that in the peninsula it's been one of the ariports that as faired better currently the 4 airport for international pax...

And all of this because some one wants to force this view that air travel is like housing speculation... And Porto as some sort of bubble... Travelers and passangers are not real??? Are they speculative???

The said person should keep is little wars to the rest of the Galician regional airports...
 
User avatar
fidelidade
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:15 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:37 am

Further TAP management changes. CFO, Rafael Quintas leaves at the end of this week. So now CEO, CPO and CFO all gone. From Star Alliance sources, again, very likely Arik De (Chief for revenue and network) is also leaving end of the month to go back to Canada and join Air Canada. As many know, he was being recruited very heavily. Finally, also leaving is Daniel Galizi, head of crew planning is leaving, and so is one more foreigner whose name has not been disclosed.

I feel ashamed that all the foreign talent are leaving. Some of the departures make TAP very vulnerable to government intervention in day to day activities.
Last edited by fidelidade on Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10478
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:15 pm

fidelidade wrote:
I feel ashamed that all the foreign talent are leaving. Some of the departures make TAP very vulnerable to government intervention in day to day activities.

That's hardly a surprise. I said it before and I'll say it again, with TAP fully under government hands cronyism is sure to return and route planning will be based on where well connected people want to go on vacation. It's the 90's all over again when TAP operated to places like Punta Cana, Bangkok, and Macau on the backs of the tax payer.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4326
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:29 pm

airbazar wrote:
fidelidade wrote:
I feel ashamed that all the foreign talent are leaving. Some of the departures make TAP very vulnerable to government intervention in day to day activities.

That's hardly a surprise. I said it before and I'll say it again, with TAP fully under government hands cronyism is sure to return and route planning will be based on where well connected people want to go on vacation. It's the 90's all over again when TAP operated to places like Punta Cana, Bangkok, and Macau on the backs of the tax payer.


= Are you all sure about this? Seems like Arik, who as many, including me, think is one of our next gen aviation leaders, has been quietly making all the right network choices for TAP. I don't see this "government intervention" like you say because they have been making tough choices like reductions in OPO.

Fidelidade, I hope you are wrong about Arik's departure. While I can see how he fits Air Canada's need for new talent who is not another white Canadian man, his non political commercial views in Portugal is probably needed more than ever to get things done.

Finally, Rafael Quintas' departure is a big loss. Having worked with him in aviation finance, he will be missed. Not only good with finance, but very forward looking, and driven by numbers.

Let's wait and see.

Saludos,
Alex
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 5239
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:49 pm

Saw a story that Portugalia could change its name to TAP Express and may assume a larger role as the short-haul provider to TAP.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:15 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Saw a story that Portugalia could change its name to TAP Express and may assume a larger role as the short-haul provider to TAP.


?? Isn't it the case since 2016?

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... portugalia

TAP Portugal Creates TAP Express To Replace Portugalia
January 15, 2016
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 5239
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:24 pm

Yes but Portugalia Airlines still trades under its own name, and while part of TAP Group still can do its own things.

Sounds like it will be much more closely aligned and provide the backbone of short-haul flying under its own AOC for TAP.
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:16 am

mercure1 wrote:
Saw a story that Portugalia could change its name to TAP Express and may assume a larger role as the short-haul provider to TAP.
It was said by the minister responsible of transportation, that in 2 years, Portugália fleet will grow from the actual 13 E190/E195 to 26.

This is accompanied with the withdrawal from main TAP of most of A319/320/321 CEO aircraft that already started.

TAP + PGA fleet should shrink from 108 to 88 aircraft.
All 21 A319 will exit the fleet (12 already withdrawn)
Probably 10 A320 CEO will exit the fleet (3 already withdrawn)
3 or 4 A321 CEO will exit (1 already withdrawn)
4 A330-200 will exit too (2 already withdrawn)

This brings the main fleet to near 69 aircraft + 13 more E190/195 makes it to 82 aircraft, plus some More A320/A321 NEO LR arriving they could not be delayed, it will make close to the 88 aircraft mencioned.

I don't work for TP, neither have some special information about the reestructing, but it more a less this that will happen...

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airbazar
Posts: 10478
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:38 pm

efpmeneses wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Saw a story that Portugalia could change its name to TAP Express and may assume a larger role as the short-haul provider to TAP.
It was said by the minister responsible of transportation, that in 2 years, Portugália fleet will grow from the actual 13 E190/E195 to 26.

This is accompanied with the withdrawal from main TAP of most of A319/320/321 CEO aircraft that already started.


It's essentially the same strategy that Iberia adopted with Air Nostrum and Iberia Express.
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:30 pm

efpmeneses wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Saw a story that Portugalia could change its name to TAP Express and may assume a larger role as the short-haul provider to TAP.
It was said by the minister responsible of transportation, that in 2 years, Portugália fleet will grow from the actual 13 E190/E195 to 26.

This is accompanied with the withdrawal from main TAP of most of A319/320/321 CEO aircraft that already started.

TAP + PGA fleet should shrink from 108 to 88 aircraft.
All 21 A319 will exit the fleet (12 already withdrawn)
Probably 10 A320 CEO will exit the fleet (3 already withdrawn)
3 or 4 A321 CEO will exit (1 already withdrawn)
4 A330-200 will exit too (2 already withdrawn)

This brings the main fleet to near 69 aircraft + 13 more E190/195 makes it to 82 aircraft, plus some More A320/A321 NEO LR arriving they could not be delayed, it will make close to the 88 aircraft mencioned.

I don't work for TP, neither have some special information about the reestructing, but it more a less this that will happen...

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Ohh, and it was said that the 8 ATR-72 probably will leave the fleet... We will see

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jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:17 pm

Ohh, and it was said that the 8 ATR-72 probably will leave the fleet... We will see

[/quote]

Oh no, and how are they going to operate to SCQ now?

Jokes aside, TAP made good money flying those ATRs to medium sized spanish cities (SVQ, BIO, PNA, and I believe OVD) and offering good connections in LIS. Usually shorter travel times than connecting through Madrid. Are they ready to lose that business?
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:48 pm

New summer destination: FUERTEVENTURA 1x
Source only in Spanish, apologies

https://www.ondafuerteventura.es/tap-po ... rano-2021/
 
fil87
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 10:53 am

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:55 pm

TAP Lisbon lounge is currently closed for renovation until Feb 1st - can confirm myself. ANA lounge was quite packed this morning and food choice limited to sandwiches, pasteis de nata, croissant. Wide option of beers & drinks. For once, TAP surprised me today: when I checked-in online, I got a seat in the very back of the plane. At the airport, I asked my seat to be changed and they ‘upgraded me’ free of charge to an Economy Xtra seat in the very front (I hold Turkish Elite Plus status & had booked a TAP Discount fare).
 
hoons90
Posts: 3877
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:06 am

fil87 wrote:
. ANA lounge was quite packed this morning and food choice limited to sandwiches, pasteis de nata, croissant.


I believe this is what they served before the pandemic, too. In fairness, the sandwiches are decent.

The showers are absolutely horrific though...
 
efpmeneses
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:39 pm

Re: TAP Portugal News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:31 am

jmmadrid wrote:
Ohh, and it was said that the 8 ATR-72 probably will leave the fleet... We will see



Oh no, and how are they going to operate to SCQ now?

Jokes aside, TAP made good money flying those ATRs to medium sized spanish cities (SVQ, BIO, PNA, and I believe OVD) and offering good connections in LIS. Usually shorter travel times than connecting through Madrid. Are they ready to lose that business?


TAP stopped flying to PNA for over a decade.
OVD was cancelled at the same time as VGO and LCG in 2018

Before COVID19 the ATR72 were used to BIO, SVQ, AGP, ALC, TNG and were going to be used to fly to SCQ that was going to be launched in 2020.


About new routes this is what it is in TAP website:

New destinations, new paths

In Europe you can count on flights to new destinations in Spain (Ibiza, Santiago de Compostela and Fuerteventura) and Croatia (Zagreb);

In Africa, TAP will reach Tunisia (Djerba and Monastir), Morocco (Oujda) and South Africa (Cape Town);

Towards the Americas, the new route to Cancún, Mexico is available.


Searching for availability this is what I have found:

Monastir - from 4th June (Friday)
Djerba - don't see flights for sale
Agadir - from 28 march (Saturday, sunday, Monday and Friday)
Oujda - from 28th may (Saturday and sunday)
Cape town - don't see any flights
Cancun - from 27th march (Thursday, Friday and saturday)
Ibiza - from 5th June (Saturday and Sunday)
Fuerteventura - from 5th June (Saturdays)
Santiago de Compostela - from 10th February (Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday)
Zagreb - from 28th march (Sunday, Wednesday and Friday)

Later on summer some of the flights would see increased frequencies.

But with all the COVID19 thing, even this that is for sale probably will change....

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