Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
dfpinto wrote:Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...
LAXintl wrote:dfpinto wrote:Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...
In fairness, the management team at TP is largely Neeleman's. The CEO since 2018 is from Azul, the CFO is from Azul, while Neeleman himself takes active role in representing TAP and has had hand in decision like fleet and network decisions.
Polot wrote:LAXintl wrote:dfpinto wrote:Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...
In fairness, the management team at TP is largely Neeleman's. The CEO since 2018 is from Azul, the CFO is from Azul, while Neeleman himself takes active role in representing TAP and has had hand in decision like fleet and network decisions.
Yes, and the entire reason the company was partially privatized to begin with (in which Neeleman’s team won the competition for the TAP stake) was so that the new shareholder can run the company for the government and hopefully get it profitable. Neeleman is not some random shareholder who happened to pick up a bunch of shares on the open market-the Portuguese government directly sold a large portion of the airline to him for a specific purpose.
The Portuguese government is apparently fed up with TAP’s continuing (and apparently deepening) losses so they want something new-hence the call for Neeleman to sell to someone the Portuguese government obviously approves of. Renationalizing the airline would probably cause friction with E.U.
janders wrote:So what does the government want Neeleman and his group to do that is leading to the disagreement?
jfk777 wrote:All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.
Polot wrote:janders wrote:So what does the government want Neeleman and his group to do that is leading to the disagreement?
Most likely the government wants TAP to cozy up more with LH/UA and join the TATL JV, while Neeleman and his team would prefer to remain more independent except with also Neeleman owned Azul. The potential suitors provides a clue-the government surely knows who might be interested, hence the encouragement to sell.
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:jfk777 wrote:All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.
I do wonder how much the cost of new airplanes is factoring into the losses. It can’t just be staff wages and the Brazilian economy. Being a launch customer for a new airplane costs money.
DTVG wrote:TAP is going to be completely screwed when the next downturn arrives. Way to big/wrong fleet/network for an economically weak country.
zkojq wrote:The aircraft that the A330neos are replacing aren't young whilst the A321neoLRs cost substantially less to operate on long haul routes than any widebody.
jfk777 wrote:TAP under the Azul founder has been transformed, to have Neeleman leave would be TAP losing their mojo. A330-900 and A321neoLR are transformative airplanes allowing them to expand to the American west coast and midwest. TAP has never been better, allowing Lufthansa to buy them is admitting defeat and letter the huge German airline group just get larger.
ScottB wrote:jfk777 wrote:LIS is poorly-located for traffic flows within Europe or to North America, although it has a decent location for connecting traffic to South America or Africa
jfk777 wrote:TAP is too concentrated on Brazil in Latin America, it doesn't fly to Mexico, Argentina or Chile, why not ? IF TAP's niche is South America them fly to all of it. Be the Brazil specialist but fly to the main business centers too. All those new A330-900 would fit very nicely at EZE & MEX. Years ago the only two cities they flew in the USA were Boston and Newark then discovered Miami and its been a success.
hohd wrote:TAP airlines feed to Portugal has other benefits, like showcasing Portugal, similar to what Iceland Air does and WOW air did
Pyrex wrote:So was Malev. So was Sabena. So was Swissair. Let Neeleman take time losses and get the taxpayer out of this.
Polot wrote:LIS isn’t in a terrible location, but you can’t look at it in a vacuum. They have a lot of heavy competition. TAP is often among the cheaper TATL options, but they really need to slash costs to sustain those fares. Can they continue to grow and develop a successful hub without that low fare hook? I’m not sure.
kipfilet wrote:Pyrex wrote:So was Malev. So was Sabena. So was Swissair. Let Neeleman take time losses and get the taxpayer out of this.
Well, private shareholders did want an IPO for TAP; but the government wanted to retain 50% of the company and killed that idea:
https://observador.pt/2019/02/06/acioni ... e-seja-ja/
airbazar wrote:Exactly. The government has a huge interest in keeping TAP. They never wanted to and never will allow it to go completely private. Even now, they are building a new airport only to remove competition from LIS and TAP. The goal of the new airport is 100% to protect TAP. The irony of course if that the current airport is not good enough even if TAP were to be the sole operator at that airport. So the losses will continue and in the meantime they will blow a couple billion building a new airport that will be at full capacity even before it opens. But someone how this is all the fault of an investor that doesn't even own a majority stake in the airline
airbazar wrote:[On my last trip there this past Summer we sat on the tarmac after pushback for one hour, waiting to get a takeoff slot
WingsOfLove wrote:airbazar wrote:[On my last trip there this past Summer we sat on the tarmac after pushback for one hour, waiting to get a takeoff slot
Guess I was lucky? Transferred there 2x last month and was slightly uncomfortable with the time between flights, but all went like Swiss clock work, despite having a ramp stand once.
airbazar wrote:Nope, can't do it without an overnight on the return for most city pairs
Pt56 wrote:So solution for TAP is a cheep modern new hub that is 50 km from the city...??
News flash a new hub will have to be paid by the company's that operate it. It won't be cheep. (They never are). The extra capability will open TAP to even more price pressure on the European front from LCC.
Tap is extremely happy with the limited hub they have where they can defend themselves from the LCC by simple slot shortage.
TAP problem is not the hub. TAP problem is it's extreme reliance on one single volatile market. And not being competitive in the other markets without severe discounts, on top of being a flag company for a relatively poor country that can't command a good enough yeild on O&D for the size of operation it wants to command.
airbazar wrote:No the solution is a level playing field for all airlines such as 1 airport for everyone.
Newflash, the airport in Montijo will open TAP to the same or more price pressure without TAP gaining anything in return, i.e. an efficient hub to combat the LCC's and compete with the rest of Europe's network carriers.
TAP is a network carrier. The LCC's are not. TAP needs an efficient hub to maximize it's connecting business. The LCC's do not, they're p-2-p carriers. When the new airport in Montijo opens the LCC's will continue to operate at LIS plus Montijo. LIS will remain as congested as it is today but not only will the LCC's provide customers with the flexibility to chose what airport to fly in/out of but they'll be operating from a new, more efficient and CHEAPER airport. TAP won't be able to match any of that.. They'll be stuck at a super congested, patched-up, old, single runway airport without so much as a fuel pipeline that leaves them to the whims of the truck drivers, while the LCC's will be laughing all the way to the bank, expanding their business in Lisbon via 2 airports, one of which will have significantly lower operating costs while also being brand new. Only in the minds of incompetent politicians does any of this makes any sense.
sk736 wrote:When did they become Air Portugal on their aircraft livery?
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:sk736 wrote:When did they become Air Portugal on their aircraft livery?
Four decades ago.
David_itl wrote: