TAP Air Portugal reports 1H 2019 loss of €119.7m (US$132m), increasing since the same period last year. The 1H performance was mainly impacted by decline revenues from key Brazil market, and higher costs especially from staff wages.

Company may gain new owners, as the Portuguese government pushes Atlantic Gateway to sell its 45% stake amid losses and management disagreements. David Neeleman is reportedly opening to selling the stake, with potential suitors reported among Lufthansa and United Airlines.


https://epocanegocios.globo.com/Mundo/n ... ornal.html
https://sicnoticias.pt/economia/2019-09 ... d-Neeleman

Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...

Pure garbage...

Wonder what these "management disagreements" are?

dfpinto wrote:

Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...

In fairness, the management team at TP is largely Neeleman's. The CEO since 2018 is from Azul, the CFO is from Azul, while Neeleman himself takes active role in representing TAP and has had hand in decision like fleet and network decisions.

When was the last time TP was profitable? I don't follow them closely but it seems like they have been struggling for a while now.

LAXintl wrote:

dfpinto wrote:

Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...

In fairness, the management team at TP is largely Neeleman's. The CEO since 2018 is from Azul, the CFO is from Azul, while Neeleman himself takes active role in representing TAP and has had hand in decision like fleet and network decisions.

Yes, and the entire reason the company was partially privatized to begin with (in which Neeleman’s team won the competition for the TAP stake) was so that the new shareholder can run the company for the government and hopefully get it profitable. Neeleman is not some random shareholder who happened to pick up a bunch of shares on the open market-the Portuguese government directly sold a large portion of the airline to him for a specific purpose.

The Portuguese government is apparently fed up with TAP’s continuing (and apparently deepening) losses so they want something new-hence the call for Neeleman to sell to someone the Portuguese government obviously approves of. Renationalizing the airline would probably cause friction with E.U.

Polot wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

dfpinto wrote:

Wow... there's so many things wrong with that article... Starting with "The Government is unhappy with Neeleman's management", when he's not even part of the management team. He's a shareholder, just like the Portuguese State! And yes, I'm sure Lufthansa is interested in Neeleman's stake. They were never interested in TP in the past, but now, with 120M EUR loss, now it's really appealing...

In fairness, the management team at TP is largely Neeleman's. The CEO since 2018 is from Azul, the CFO is from Azul, while Neeleman himself takes active role in representing TAP and has had hand in decision like fleet and network decisions.

Yes, and the entire reason the company was partially privatized to begin with (in which Neeleman’s team won the competition for the TAP stake) was so that the new shareholder can run the company for the government and hopefully get it profitable. Neeleman is not some random shareholder who happened to pick up a bunch of shares on the open market-the Portuguese government directly sold a large portion of the airline to him for a specific purpose.

The Portuguese government is apparently fed up with TAP’s continuing (and apparently deepening) losses so they want something new-hence the call for Neeleman to sell to someone the Portuguese government obviously approves of. Renationalizing the airline would probably cause friction with E.U.

Meh. There's an election, what else is new?
The government tied the new shareholders' hands when it decided not to build a new airport. It's impossible to run a half decent hub out of that airport, let alone make money. they are as much to blame, IMO after all they do own 50% of the airline and that is a big reason why TAP is not profitable.
The government would never allow LH or UA to gain control of TP because that would mean the end of the LIS hub. Everyone knows that except the people they are pandering to for votes.

So what does the government want Neeleman and his group to do that is leading to the disagreement?

All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.

janders wrote:

So what does the government want Neeleman and his group to do that is leading to the disagreement?

Most likely the government wants TAP to cozy up more with LH/UA and join the TATL JV, while Neeleman and his team would prefer to remain more independent except with also Neeleman owned Azul. The potential suitors provides a clue-the government surely knows who might be interested, hence the encouragement to sell.

jfk777 wrote:

All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.

I do wonder how much the cost of new airplanes is factoring into the losses. It can’t just be staff wages and the Brazilian economy. Being a launch customer for a new airplane costs money.

Polot wrote:

janders wrote:

So what does the government want Neeleman and his group to do that is leading to the disagreement?

Most likely the government wants TAP to cozy up more with LH/UA and join the TATL JV, while Neeleman and his team would prefer to remain more independent except with also Neeleman owned Azul. The potential suitors provides a clue-the government surely knows who might be interested, hence the encouragement to sell.

That would be the death of TAP. Just look at SN and OS. All they get is the scraps that LH is not interested in.
IMO this is nothing but election time pandering.
If the government was really serious about making TAP a profitable airline they would have done 2 things a long time ago:
1) Privatize the airline. The current semi-private state is just a smoke screen.
2) Build a new real hub airport, not that ridiculous idea in Montijo.

There's another possible angle here and that is Germany acting on behalf of LH trying to force the Portuguese government to reign in TAP's expansion. I don't think LH ever expected TAP to survive this long let alone expand into their bread-and-butter TATL market and apply downward pressure on TATL fares.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

All those new A330-900 and A321neoLR aren't free. Expanding to SFO, IAD and ORD has costs too. TAP is facing declining revenue in Brazil and startup cost to North America, no time for new markets to UA's hubs to develop.

I do wonder how much the cost of new airplanes is factoring into the losses. It can’t just be staff wages and the Brazilian economy. Being a launch customer for a new airplane costs money.

Well they've been delaying Capex on new Widebodies for quite some years (and even got 10 year old ex-Sibgapore A330s as a stopgap measure). The aircraft that the A330neos are replacing aren't young whilst the A321neoLRs cost substantially less to operate on long haul routes than any widebody.

I visited Toulouse recently and was astounded by the number of TAP aircraft due for delivery. They seem to be going full steam ahead for expansion. Probably too full if you ask me. Seeing this loss doesn't surprise me. They have too much capacity
.

TAP is going to be completely screwed when the next downturn arrives. Way to big/wrong fleet/network for an economically weak country.

DTVG wrote:

TAP is going to be completely screwed when the next downturn arrives. Way to big/wrong fleet/network for an economically weak country.

They are not a private airline, they are government owned. That stuff only happens to private airlines. Look at AZ. The Portuguese government will never let TAP liquidate. They haven't cared about profitability since the 70's, they're not going to start caring now.
Most of the new aircraft are leased not owned. In a downturn they can probably find a way to reduce their exposure: Hello B6, need some cheap NEO's?
They grew fast over the last 3-4 years but the majority of the orders are replacements for what used to be a very old fleet. For instance the A339 fleet is almost a 1-to-1 replacement of the previous A330+A340 fleet. The size of the country doesn't really matter. 50% of their passengers never set foot inside Portugal. They are still a smallish airline of only 100 aircraft.
The irony of the government's whining is that fleet replacement was one of the principal conditions for selling a 45% stake of the airline, because the government did not have the money to buy new planes. And now they're whining about the cost of it. Typical clueless politicians.

As others have said, this is just politics. Govt trying to find a way to blame previous government as it goes up for reelection.

TAP under the Azul founder has been transformed, to have Neeleman leave would be TAP losing their mojo. A330-900 and A321neoLR are transformative airplanes allowing them to expand to the American west coast and midwest. TAP has never been better, allowing Lufthansa to buy them is admitting defeat and letter the huge German airline group just get larger. LH is already big enough, if they like TAP why not buy SAS as well.

zkojq wrote:

The aircraft that the A330neos are replacing aren't young whilst the A321neoLRs cost substantially less to operate on long haul routes than any widebody.

Flew A330-900neo / A321neo last month and was impressed by the hard product. Free texting (in all classes) especially across the Atlantic was nice. Where TAP disappointed was premium check-in / boarding and crews were too 'robotic' and impersonal.

I booked 2 one ways and most times I'd shop TAP offered one of the lowest fares, which seems to explain the 1H loss. Problem is they'd lose more not filling up their TATL widebodies. The A321LR will be transformative.

jfk777 wrote:

TAP under the Azul founder has been transformed, to have Neeleman leave would be TAP losing their mojo. A330-900 and A321neoLR are transformative airplanes allowing them to expand to the American west coast and midwest. TAP has never been better, allowing Lufthansa to buy them is admitting defeat and letter the huge German airline group just get larger.

It's not clear that an expanded TAP would necessarily be profitable. LIS is poorly-located for traffic flows within Europe or to North America, although it has a decent location for connecting traffic to South America or Africa. The language and cultural ties to Brazil are a big plus but that also makes TP very dependent on the economic ups and downs of Portugal's former colony. Lisbon and Portugal in general are fantastic places to visit, but Portugal is relatively less wealthy than the rest of Western Europe and business ties to North America are weak.

For TP to expand to the U.S. Midwest and West Coast basically means chasing after low-yielding connections and that's not the road to profits.

Portugal has good geography. The topography, weather and lattitude is almost identical to California for year round operations. Lisbon has the potential of being the hub between Latin America and Asia. Establishing a US Customs pre-clearence check at LIS could help open to more US East Coast destinations....my two cents.

ScottB wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

LIS is poorly-located for traffic flows within Europe or to North America, although it has a decent location for connecting traffic to South America or Africa

agreed, LIS makes little sense as a European hub, but ...
- poorly located for flights to North America? doesn't that depend where you start out? even my FRA-JFK routing was competitive with other 1 stops, because of the short LIS layover and I saved quite a bit of money not taking LH nonstop
- 'decent' location to South America? you're really down playing this one and it depends where in Africa

because of geography TAP can serve any destination on the East Coast of North America with the A321LR, what it needs now is an airport built for a hub operation

With the fleet renewal in full swing, it will be some time before TAP can register a decent profit. TAP currently operates some of the world's oldest A319ceo, A320ceo, A330ceo and A340. Those A320neo, A321neo and A330neo are coming in to replace almost of of their older fleet. So I won't be too worried about the loss now.

TAP is too concentrated on Brazil in Latin America, it doesn't fly to Mexico, Argentina or Chile, why not ? IF TAP's niche is South America them fly to all of it. Be the Brazil specialist but fly to the main business centers too. All those new A330-900 would fit very nicely at EZE & MEX. Years ago the only two cities they flew in the USA were Boston and Newark then discovered Miami and its been a success.

The problem with South America/Latin America (outside Brazil) is IB/MAD. Same great geography, much larger/stronger market. The problem with North America is well, basically all the other hubs in Western Europe, especially ones like DUB, which also are in range of a plethora of NA destinations with the A321LR and with larger/stronger local markets.

LIS isn’t in a terrible location, but you can’t look at it in a vacuum. They have a lot of heavy competition. TAP is often among the cheaper TATL options, but they really need to slash costs to sustain those fares. Can they continue to grow and develop a successful hub without that low fare hook? I’m not sure.

jfk777 wrote:

TAP is too concentrated on Brazil in Latin America, it doesn't fly to Mexico, Argentina or Chile, why not ? IF TAP's niche is South America them fly to all of it. Be the Brazil specialist but fly to the main business centers too. All those new A330-900 would fit very nicely at EZE & MEX. Years ago the only two cities they flew in the USA were Boston and Newark then discovered Miami and its been a success.

TAP focuses on Brazil since it is a former Portuguese colony with deep corporate and political ties. Iberia dominates the rest of Latin America. Competing against Iberia to Latin America would be challenging and rely on feed. Connecting traffic tends to be lower revenue than non stop direct.

There are no flights from LIS to EZE or MEX or BOG. MEX has the potential of being somewhat profitable, BOG is a possibility.. EZE, not now and since Brazil is close enough those few passengers transit through Brazil. LIS has a good location and can profit from it.

Also privatization is not the answer for all airlines, TAP airlines feed to Portugal has other benefits, like showcasing Portugal, similar to what Iceland Air does and WOW air did.

We all should be very careful reading this news.

The original source of the news, Expresso newspapers (www.expresso.pt), once a reference of Portuguese journalism is now a newspaper full of preferences and love to lean always to the same side, and with TAP is no exception.

I never heard a word, and I bet no one did it, from anyone in the government about Neeleman, the management and the €120 m.

Someone wrote that the elections are close, 2 weeks to be more precise, and the news will start to appear everywhere about everything and the majority will be a bunch of garbage.

Apparently the 2nd quarter was positive, so all of this loss is related with the 1st quarter. But I don't know if it is really true or not.

Cheers

hohd wrote:

TAP airlines feed to Portugal has other benefits, like showcasing Portugal, similar to what Iceland Air does and WOW air did

Agreed, TAP is an important ambassador for this small country of 10 Million. It is Portugal's most cherished brand and on top of pride, its expansion creates jobs that pay taxes locally, not to Malta.

Because of geography the A321LR and potentially even more competent successors are game changers connecting to West Africa, NE Brazil, Caribbean and communities along the East Coast of North America. Portugal should build a modern hub airport for that mission.

So was Malev. So was Sabena. So was Swissair. Let Neeleman take time losses and get the taxpayer out of this.

Pyrex wrote:

So was Malev. So was Sabena. So was Swissair. Let Neeleman take time losses and get the taxpayer out of this.

Well, private shareholders did want an IPO for TAP; but the government wanted to retain 50% of the company and killed that idea:
https://observador.pt/2019/02/06/acioni ... e-seja-ja/

Polot wrote:

LIS isn’t in a terrible location, but you can’t look at it in a vacuum. They have a lot of heavy competition. TAP is often among the cheaper TATL options, but they really need to slash costs to sustain those fares. Can they continue to grow and develop a successful hub without that low fare hook? I’m not sure.

TAP already has very low operating costs. Lower than LCC's which is why their fares are low. That is not where the problem is.
The problem IMO is the lack of a cost efficient hub. LIS is expensive for what it is and premium passengers will avoid it if they can. On my last trip there this past Summer we sat on the tarmac after pushback for one hour, waiting to get a takeoff slot. In addition, having to compensate passengers for delays and cancellations due to the heavy congestion at LIS doesn't make things any better. The EU is not like the U.S. where an airline can bump you for the price of a couple of dognuts and cup of coffee.

kipfilet wrote:

Pyrex wrote:

So was Malev. So was Sabena. So was Swissair. Let Neeleman take time losses and get the taxpayer out of this.

Well, private shareholders did want an IPO for TAP; but the government wanted to retain 50% of the company and killed that idea:
https://observador.pt/2019/02/06/acioni ... e-seja-ja/

Exactly. The government has a huge interest in keeping TAP. They never wanted to and never will allow it to go completely private. Even now, they are building a new airport only to remove competition from LIS and TAP. The goal of the new airport is 100% to protect TAP. The irony of course if that the current airport is not good enough even if TAP were to be the sole operator at that airport. So the losses will continue and in the meantime they will blow a couple billion building a new airport that will be at full capacity even before it opens. But someone how this is all the fault of an investor that doesn't even own a majority stake in the airline

airbazar wrote:

Exactly. The government has a huge interest in keeping TAP. They never wanted to and never will allow it to go completely private. Even now, they are building a new airport only to remove competition from LIS and TAP. The goal of the new airport is 100% to protect TAP. The irony of course if that the current airport is not good enough even if TAP were to be the sole operator at that airport. So the losses will continue and in the meantime they will blow a couple billion building a new airport that will be at full capacity even before it opens. But someone how this is all the fault of an investor that doesn't even own a majority stake in the airline

precisely - lack of the ability to plan long-term and political whims by the Portuguese government are the fundamental problem here

airbazar wrote:

[On my last trip there this past Summer we sat on the tarmac after pushback for one hour, waiting to get a takeoff slot

Guess I was lucky? Transferred there 2x last month and was slightly uncomfortable with the time between flights, but all went like Swiss clock work, despite having a ramp stand once.

WingsOfLove wrote:

airbazar wrote:

[On my last trip there this past Summer we sat on the tarmac after pushback for one hour, waiting to get a takeoff slot

Guess I was lucky? Transferred there 2x last month and was slightly uncomfortable with the time between flights, but all went like Swiss clock work, despite having a ramp stand once.

It really depends on the time of day. There are times when it's just absolute bonkers, and others when it's quiet. why do you think TAP repeatedly shows up on the list of most delayed airlines in the world? It's not the weather in Lisbom that's for sure
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... -airports/
I personally have never had any problems with the passenger experience in the terminal. Yes it's crowded at times but few airports aren't these days.The problem is with the stuff we can't see, like air field and ATC congestion, and lack of slots which forces the home airline to have to prioritize on a subset of connection pairs when it could do so much more. For example, you'd think one could connect from the U.S. to Morocco and back via LIS because TAP serves cities in both countries. Nope, can't do it without an overnight on the return for most city pairs.

airbazar wrote:

Nope, can't do it without an overnight on the return for most city pairs

booking with TAP it automatically prompts you to chose how many days you'd like to stay in Lisbon

On a little side-track: I think a Delta-AeroMexico-GOL-TAP pseudo "alliance" would work well. Too bad the Alitalia project is taking too long. I don't think Delta would bid for a percentage of TAP without a clear Alitalia objective.

So solution for TAP is a cheep modern new hub that is 50 km from the city...??

News flash a new hub will have to be paid by the company's that operate it. It won't be cheep. (They never are). The extra capability will open TAP to even more price pressure on the European front from LCC.

Tap is extremely happy with the limited hub they have where they can defend themselves from the LCC by simple slot shortage.

TAP problem is not the hub. TAP problem is it's extreme reliance on one single volatile market. And not being competitive in the other markets without severe discounts, on top of being a flag company for a relatively poor country that can't command a good enough yeild on O&D for the size of operation it wants to command.

Pt56 wrote:

So solution for TAP is a cheep modern new hub that is 50 km from the city...??

News flash a new hub will have to be paid by the company's that operate it. It won't be cheep. (They never are). The extra capability will open TAP to even more price pressure on the European front from LCC.

Tap is extremely happy with the limited hub they have where they can defend themselves from the LCC by simple slot shortage.

TAP problem is not the hub. TAP problem is it's extreme reliance on one single volatile market. And not being competitive in the other markets without severe discounts, on top of being a flag company for a relatively poor country that can't command a good enough yeild on O&D for the size of operation it wants to command.

No the solution is a level playing field for all airlines such as 1 airport for everyone.
Newflash, the airport in Montijo will open TAP to the same or more price pressure without TAP gaining anything in return, i.e. an efficient hub to combat the LCC's and compete with the rest of Europe's network carriers.
TAP is a network carrier. The LCC's are not. TAP needs an efficient hub to maximize it's connecting business. The LCC's do not, they're p-2-p carriers. When the new airport in Montijo opens the LCC's will continue to operate at LIS plus Montijo. LIS will remain as congested as it is today but not only will the LCC's provide customers with the flexibility to chose what airport to fly in/out of but they'll be operating from a new, more efficient and CHEAPER airport. TAP won't be able to match any of that.. They'll be stuck at a super congested, patched-up, old, single runway airport without so much as a fuel pipeline that leaves them to the whims of the truck drivers, while the LCC's will be laughing all the way to the bank, expanding their business in Lisbon via 2 airports, one of which will have significantly lower operating costs while also being brand new. Only in the minds of incompetent politicians does any of this makes any sense.

airbazar wrote:

No the solution is a level playing field for all airlines such as 1 airport for everyone.
Newflash, the airport in Montijo will open TAP to the same or more price pressure without TAP gaining anything in return, i.e. an efficient hub to combat the LCC's and compete with the rest of Europe's network carriers.
TAP is a network carrier. The LCC's are not. TAP needs an efficient hub to maximize it's connecting business. The LCC's do not, they're p-2-p carriers. When the new airport in Montijo opens the LCC's will continue to operate at LIS plus Montijo. LIS will remain as congested as it is today but not only will the LCC's provide customers with the flexibility to chose what airport to fly in/out of but they'll be operating from a new, more efficient and CHEAPER airport. TAP won't be able to match any of that.. They'll be stuck at a super congested, patched-up, old, single runway airport without so much as a fuel pipeline that leaves them to the whims of the truck drivers, while the LCC's will be laughing all the way to the bank, expanding their business in Lisbon via 2 airports, one of which will have significantly lower operating costs while also being brand new. Only in the minds of incompetent politicians does any of this makes any sense.

right on

Cheaper how? it has to be built and paid.. and last time I checked airlines operating airports do a good chunk of that...

Plus it's not like it's a secret that TAP was not really interested in moving operations. It has publicly said so, it lacks the funds to promote such a change, and has enough problems as is..

Btw it's not the politicians running this show it's the Vinci group that runs the show. They pay for the investment and have decided to not do so... I guess after talking to their clients the airlines...

TAP has been losing money for decades and only recently as the hub become saturated, so it really does not work like you stated... TAP's problems are far grater than the hub it operates.

I noticed at LHR this morning a TAP A320 that had the word “Air” in front of the word “Portugal” on the fuselage and the tail. When did they become Air Portugal on their aircraft livery?

Here's a photo from 1997
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TAP_Air_Portugal_Boeing_737-300;_CS-TIO@ZRH;09.03.1997_(8369022213).jpg

They added it back a few years ago (I want to say 2018 but could be wrong). It was added back as part of their international marketing push to make it more clear they are an airline and not just a Portuguese tourism board or something.

sk736 wrote:

When did they become Air Portugal on their aircraft livery?

Four decades ago.

Does anyone remember their TV slogan (at least in the USA) back in the days when there was no cable, and airlines advertised on TV often?

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

sk736 wrote:

When did they become Air Portugal on their aircraft livery?

Four decades ago.

David_itl wrote:

Here's a photo from 1997
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TAP_Air_Portugal_Boeing_737-300;_CS-TIO@ZRH;09.03.1997_(8369022213).jpg

Just so everyone is clear he is talking about the addition of Air Portugal to the current livery.


Top is old, bottom is new. This is the same aircraft. When the current identify was designed TAP dropped the “Air” and went by TAP Portugal in marketing.

Always thought this was a unique livery. Technical: Would have looked best if all words were bold with more spacing between Air and Portugal, but I can see that it would have been a bit muddy on the tail so realize ultimately why they chose the current way.

Although when it was TAP Portugal on tail only it was appropriate to have TAP bold.

What surprises me is that their newly delivered A330neo and 321neo don't have the Air Portugal title, but just the Portugal one.
Guess the Air is just an additional sticker so it's weird they don't ask Airbus to apply it during painting.

apparently TP is opening CUN, CPT, LIM and another destination in Morocco,

inside source, from October.

The rumors are,

New routes from Lisbon:
Cancun (CUN)
Orlando (MCO)
Lima (LIM)
Cape Town (CPT)
Beirut (BEY)
Agadir (AGA)

Cancelled during winter time:
Helsinki (HEL)
Naples (NAP)
Nantes (NTE)

New route from Porto
Sal (SID)

Cancelled year round from Porto:
Brussels
Munich