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usxguy
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Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:29 pm

Note: I think DE deserves its own thread outside the main Thomas Cook one since DE has "survived".

Its fortunate that Condor has survived the initial Thomas Cook Group shut-down, they (Condor) have been quiet about how and why it survived. All reports from staff/management is that Condor is profitable, but it has significant business ties to TCG. I'm reading that Condor is its own German entity (Corporate and AOC) and it never 'merged' with TCX, just shared ownership.

A few observations from flying them today:

-> The reservations system is branded as both TCX and Condor. I'm wondering if the system is actually a Thomas Cook system. This isn't like Sabre/Worldspan/SITA where each airline can brand it.
-> The inflight entertainment said Thomas Cook
-> Uniforms are all Thomas Cook
-> Blankets are Thomas Cook
-> I'm told that fuel and other systems are all done thru Thomas Cook
-> Condor has its own management team
-> Condor has its own e-ticket database, in fact, Condor/DE is the plating carrier for MT flights booked outside Europe (which means its probably DE's liability).
-> Duty Free was all Thomas Cook
-> Boarding passes, bag tags, and forms co-branded DE/MT.

So I'm wondering how hard it will be to "delink" from Thomas Cook.... I was very impressed with my flight (I didn't get enough pics for a trip report here) - flight crews were very good & professional, food was among the best for Y/Y+ across the pond I've had, and it was by far the CLEANEST 767 I have been on in my life (compared to AA/DL/UA/HA/LA)
xx
 
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49Paralell
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:37 pm

I was wondering how this will affect Condor as well. I am glad they survived and they serve quite a bit of routes out of FRA. Also, will they go beck to their own branding? How will this impact their plans of replacing the B767s?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:42 pm

German press is reporting that DE needs 200 Million Euro cash injection from the government to survive. Don't see that happening, just imho.

Currently DE has to pay everything cash in advance apparently. Fuel, ground service, food etc. Even maintenance done by LH Technics is cash in advance.

Same as the Scandinavian TC outfits, how are they meant to stay around independently?

Info here:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/what-h ... homas-cook
Last edited by oschkosch on Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:43 pm

oschkosch wrote:
German press is reporting that DE needs 200 Million Euro cash injection from the government to survive. Don't see that happening, just imho.

Same as the Scandinavian TC outfits, how are they meant to stay around independently?

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The Nordic part of TC have been profitable for years. Both the travel agencies (Spies, Ving and Tjäreborg) and Thomas Cook Airlines Scandinavia, so no problem. All will resume normal service tomorrow
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leleko747
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:44 pm

I wonder if Condor will keep the Sunny Heart brand. I guess not.
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
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BestWestern
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:45 pm

Amazing how everyone says every part of the business was profitable, yet had over 1bn in losses.
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BlueberryWheats
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:45 pm

Maybe a rebrand with a yellow tail variation of the new LH livery. Much like the Condor of old was a yellow version of the old LH livery.

One can dream...
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BestWestern
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:47 pm

leleko747 wrote:
I wonder if Condor will keep the Sunny Heart brand. I guess not.


The question is if Condor will survive - the name is fantastic, but the fleet is old.

The sunny heart brand is also wonderful - looks great on the aircraft.
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oschkosch
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:52 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Amazing how everyone says every part of the business was profitable, yet had over 1bn in losses.
lol yes! That is what I was thinking.

DE is/was apparently profitable. But now they lose about 20-40% (different figures floating in the media right now) of the booked seats that holidaymakers who booked via Thomas Cook took. Plus people are now hesitant to book with them for a flight in e.g. 3 months due to the bad press. Both those factors cause a viscous downward spiral.

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BestWestern
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:57 pm

I struggle to see how Condor was profitable. Eurowings is losing hundreds of millions, and Ryanair / Lauda in Germany is also heavily loss making. If they were profitable, they wouldn’t need a €200m loan.

I can see sun express being profitable as there is less competition to Turkey from Germany. (I’m booked on Sun Express in ten weeks or so to Egypt from Frankfurt).
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MIflyer12
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:00 pm

BestWestern wrote:
I struggle to see how Condor was profitable. Eurowings is losing hundreds of millions, and Ryanair / Lauda in Germany is also heavily loss making. If they were profitable, they wouldn’t need a €200m loan.


That's not necessarily true. We don't know where the cash was held in intercompany accounts.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:03 pm

... and Condor is on the hook for any MT ticket issued on their ticket stock. That alone could exceed $50 million euro
xx
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:05 pm

Was looking at flights, FRA-YVR late Oct, Kayak, Skyscanner and other aggregators were all displaying Condor options until this morning, now they're gone. Can still book FRA-YVR nonstop on Condor's site however, I'll pass on Condor for now until things settle down.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:11 pm

BestWestern wrote:
I struggle to see how Condor was profitable. Eurowings is losing hundreds of millions, and Ryanair / Lauda in Germany is also heavily loss making. If they were profitable, they wouldn’t need a €200m loan.

I can see sun express being profitable as there is less competition to Turkey from Germany. (I’m booked on Sun Express in ten weeks or so to Egypt from Frankfurt).


Is the German market only big enough for one national carrier and one budget airline? It is more and more likely with all airlines struggling apart from LH.

I think Condor is basically dead to. With Thomas Cook gone it will be hard for them to continue operations, and if - let's say - LH is interested in buying Condor it would probably be dissolved into Eurowings.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:17 pm

oschkosch wrote:
German press is reporting that DE needs 200 Million Euro cash injection from the government to survive


Condor Flugdienst GmbH has applied for a temporary line of credit (Uberbruckungskredit) of 200 Million Euro, backed by the federal government & the state of Hesse, where it is headquartered, not a cash injection.

Condor has been profitable, actually owns part of its fleet and sells about 80% of the seats through private channels and to individuals, not TCG plc.
 
ual763
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:26 pm

IWMBH wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
I struggle to see how Condor was profitable. Eurowings is losing hundreds of millions, and Ryanair / Lauda in Germany is also heavily loss making. If they were profitable, they wouldn’t need a €200m loan.

I can see sun express being profitable as there is less competition to Turkey from Germany. (I’m booked on Sun Express in ten weeks or so to Egypt from Frankfurt).


Is the German market only big enough for one national carrier and one budget airline? It is more and more likely with all airlines struggling apart from LH.

I think Condor is basically dead to. With Thomas Cook gone it will be hard for them to continue operations, and if - let's say - LH is interested in buying Condor it would probably be dissolved into Eurowings.


Personally, I think that if anything, Eurowings would be dissolved into the Condor brand of it came to that.
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:34 pm

oschkosch wrote:
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Curious, is the term "handy" still in use?
 
Kilopond
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:39 pm

Reportedly, Condors`s major accounts have been handled centrally by the TC mothership in London. And since those are legally frozen now, Condor is going to run out of cash rather sooner than later. If no miracle happens, that is.
 
GianiDC
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:44 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


Curious, is the term "handy" still in use?


You mean in the german language? Then the answer is yes.
 
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49Paralell
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:51 pm

Amazing how everyone says every part of the business was profitable, yet had over 1bn in losses.


Correct me if I am wrong, but are they not a subsidiary of Lufthansa as well? If so, there may be where the needed $200M is coming from!
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:13 pm

49Paralell wrote:
are they not a subsidiary of Lufthansa as well?


Nope ;)
 
BestWestern
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:25 pm

WingsOfLove wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
German press is reporting that DE needs 200 Million Euro cash injection from the government to survive


Condor Flugdienst GmbH has applied for a temporary line of credit (Uberbruckungskredit) of 200 Million Euro, backed by the federal government & the state of Hesse, where it is headquartered, not a cash injection.

Condor has been profitable, actually owns part of its fleet and sells about 80% of the seats through private channels and to individuals, not TCG plc.


A $200m LC is a huge amount - let’s not pretend that it isn’t. A letter or credit is as good as a cash injection, unless it’s backed by assets. Note that the parent couldn’t get a 200m loan.

I believe that Condor has been profitable, but isn’t in 2019 to date. Owning some 767s and 753s isn’t a benefit either.
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WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:05 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Note that the parent couldn’t get a 200m loan


Thomas Cook Group plc did not ask for a bridge loan, they asked the British tax payer for a 200 Million pound cash injection, on top of a 900 Million pound investment by Fosun, on top of 1.7 billion of debt forgiveness by banks and the cancellation of claims by many more... now that is huge ;)
 
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:05 am

BestWestern wrote:
I struggle to see how Condor was profitable. Eurowings is losing hundreds of millions, and Ryanair / Lauda in Germany is also heavily loss making. If they were profitable, they wouldn’t need a €200m loan.

I can see sun express being profitable as there is less competition to Turkey from Germany. (I’m booked on Sun Express in ten weeks or so to Egypt from Frankfurt).


The loan is probably because until they're severed from Thomas Cook, they won't be extended credit and have to pay cash for services.
 
DALMD80
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:28 am

Small question... Saw a 333 with the Thomas Cook heart on it at BWI. What's the deal with that? Thomas Cook does not fly to BWI but Condor operates the 333 from Frankfurt, I think. One of the 2 heavies I know of that runs scheduled pax service from BWI, the other being BA with its 788. Of course, of course, OAI runs 773s, but I don't think that counts.
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Gulfstream500
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:05 am

With the liquidation of Thomas Cook, it makes sense that Condor be sold to Lufthansa, KLM-Air France, or IAG.

With an acquisition by IAG, they could finally tap into almost every region of the EU.
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usxguy
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:33 am

DALMD80 wrote:
Small question... Saw a 333 with the Thomas Cook heart on it at BWI. What's the deal with that? Thomas Cook does not fly to BWI but Condor operates the 333 from Frankfurt, I think. One of the 2 heavies I know of that runs scheduled pax service from BWI, the other being BA with its 788. Of course, of course, OAI runs 773s, but I don't think that counts.


Its a wet lease from Air Tanker.
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WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:34 am

There are credible sources reporting TUI fly is interested in DE
 
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Channex757
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:47 am

BestWestern wrote:
Amazing how everyone says every part of the business was profitable, yet had over 1bn in losses.

It's a long and complicated story that apparently has its roots in the MyTravel days. Thomas Cook was carrying toxic debt loads and that big loss was writing off assets.

As the company was registered in Britain then the drop in the pound hit them hard. All that debt still needed servicing. Take the units individually, then the airlines could well be profitable but sinking in the debt swamp of the company as a whole. Thomas Cook only hold 49% of Condor too so there is a chance that airline can be successfully carved out and I wish them every success in at least trying.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:46 am

Hopefully Condor continues to fly! People asking if Lufthansa owns Condor, at one point Lufthansa DID own Condor, I’m not sure about Thomas Cook Airlines UK, but I do remember when I first started flying for Thomas Cook Airlines UK (Many) years ago the uniforms and wings etc were all Lufthansa, uniforms had Lufthansa branding on the inside and the wings were the same as Lufthansa’s just with the Thomas Cook logo in the middle. I left Thomas Cook a long time ago. But sad for friends that are still there. And very sad to see that brand go!

On a side note, while I know Condor is still operating, what exactly is happening with Thomas Cook Scandinavia? Is the airline still operational? Or have they gone? I know their website is still up.
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mxaxai
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:01 am

As the TC group has stopped selling holidays, there are also many seats now unsold. Considering how easy it is to accumulate losses in the airline business, the bridge loan is required to survive the initial shock of the parent company's failure.

The terms and conditions of this loan might not be too favorable, though. Airberlin reportedly has to pay a whopping 9 % interest on their "bridge" loan (which had kept them afloat during the negotiations with LH). I can't see Condor as a stand-alone business.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:32 am

Just checked Sabre and Condor is still selling far into 2020.

I'm wondering if some of the OTAs have opted to block DE until the ownership issues get resolved.
xx
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:18 pm

The state of Hesse is willing to provide 100 Million Euro. Proceedings on the federal level for another 100 Million are ongoing.

In the current fiscal year (till September) Condor Flugdienst has made a profit of 43 Million Euros for Thomas Cook Group plc. It is considered one of the more valuable assets and Tui fly Deutschland seems interested. The sale could wrap up rather fast in London.
 
ual763
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:32 pm

WingsOfLove wrote:
The state of Hesse is willing to provide 100 Million Euro. Proceedings on the federal level for another 100 Million are ongoing.

In the current fiscal year (till September) Condor Flugdienst has made a profit of 43 Million Euros for Thomas Cook Group plc. It is considered one of the more valuable assets and Tui fly Deutschland seems interested. The sale could wrap up rather fast in London.


I’d be fine with TUI to be honest. I dream of a Lufthansa controlled Condor like most of us here I imagine, but honestly, as long as it stays a German airline and retains the name “Condor” I am okay.
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ual763
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:00 pm

Does anyone care to speculate if Condor was bought by TUI, would it still remain a separate airline, or would it get merged with TUIFly Deutschland?
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WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:25 pm

ual763 wrote:
I dream of a Lufthansa controlled Condor like most of us here I imagine, but honestly, as long as it stays a German airline and retains the name “Condor” I am okay.


The name 'Condor' in German aviation dates all the way back to 5 May, 1924 in Colombia, when Deutsche Aero Lloyd (LH) & Sociedad Colombo-Alemana de Transporte Aero founded Condor Syndikat. :airplane:
 
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Channex757
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:36 pm

ual763 wrote:
Does anyone care to speculate if Condor was bought by TUI, would it still remain a separate airline, or would it get merged with TUIFly Deutschland?

Rebranded.

TUI disposed of brands like Britannia and Hapag-Lloyd to use one name throughout Europe. No reason why Condor wouldn't also be rebranded.
 
ual763
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:11 pm

Channex757 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Does anyone care to speculate if Condor was bought by TUI, would it still remain a separate airline, or would it get merged with TUIFly Deutschland?

Rebranded.

TUI disposed of brands like Britannia and Hapag-Lloyd to use one name throughout Europe. No reason why Condor wouldn't also be rebranded.


I fear you would be correct. At least though, TUIFly has a Hapag-Lloyd retro livery. Can’t say the same for Britannia though.

Although, maybe TUIFly would buy the aircraft/crew/slots, and let Lufthansa take the brand.
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Revelation
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:15 pm

Channex757 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Amazing how everyone says every part of the business was profitable, yet had over 1bn in losses.

It's a long and complicated story that apparently has its roots in the MyTravel days. Thomas Cook was carrying toxic debt loads and that big loss was writing off assets.

As the company was registered in Britain then the drop in the pound hit them hard. All that debt still needed servicing. Take the units individually, then the airlines could well be profitable but sinking in the debt swamp of the company as a whole. Thomas Cook only hold 49% of Condor too so there is a chance that airline can be successfully carved out and I wish them every success in at least trying.

Lots of people would have better financial picture if you forgive them the debts from the bad marriage, the vacation home they should not have invested in, the car loan signed at dealer rate since no one else would finance it, etc. But I do hope whatever assets can be saved do get saved.
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WingsOfLove
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:37 pm

Channex757 wrote:
TUI disposed of brands like Britannia and Hapag-Lloyd to use one name throughout Europe. No reason why Condor wouldn't also be rebranded.


Fear you're right and so hope you're wrong.

The brand still has value, especially TATL, where DE seems to have built some name recognition in non tourist markets.

Condor by TUI fly for loghaul? :bigthumbsup:
 
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LTU932
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:10 pm

BestWestern wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
I wonder if Condor will keep the Sunny Heart brand. I guess not.


The question is if Condor will survive - the name is fantastic, but the fleet is old.

The sunny heart brand is also wonderful - looks great on the aircraft.
I mean, all the refurbishments cannot hide the fact that they have old 767s in their longhaul fleet as well. I was expecting them to finally choose a replacement for them, but nothing happened. I do also hope DE survives at all, but I'm pessimistic.
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nycbjr
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:25 pm

If they don't survive would DL or UA pick up the 757-300's?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:55 pm

Breaking news: German government will make a decision about a cloe to 400 Million Euro loan for Condor, decision expected tonight.

https://m.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/wirts ... obile.html

But why does a "highly profitable" entity now need 400 Million?

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AlexA340B777
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:00 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Breaking news: German government will make a decision about a cloe to 400 Million Euro loan for Condor, decision expected tonight.

https://m.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/wirts ... obile.html

But why does a "highly profitable" entity now need 400 Million?

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That makes me hope that Thomas Cook GmbH Germany will be included in the deal (several German News reporting this afternoon that already on Monday TC GmbH Germany has also applied for a state bridge loan)... both TC Germany and Condor could be a very profitable constellation in the German tourism market I think.

Keeping the fingers crossed!
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smokeybandit
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:00 pm

If it's true that a lot of their assets are frozen in London, then they may need alternate ways to get that cash.
 
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:08 pm

The reason being hopeful now is, that before for Condor all media had reported a 200 million loan is in the talks, whereas now 400 million being rumored... hope that would be 200 mio. each for Condor and TC GmbH Germany...
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:20 pm

nycbjr wrote:
If they don't survive would DL or UA pick up the 757-300's?

I would assume UA as I think the Condor birds are RR powered. I could be wrong though.
 
ual763
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:29 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
nycbjr wrote:
If they don't survive would DL or UA pick up the 757-300's?

I would assume UA as I think the Condor birds are RR powered. I could be wrong though.


Let’s hope it does not come to that, but yes United would make the most sense. They may also be interested in their 767s. But, my hope is that Condor flourishes.

The 757/767 has served them well for MANY years. In fact, it still serves them incredibly well. They are among the cleanest and most well-maintained 767s in the World. But all things must eventually come to an end. If Condor comes through okay, I can imagine that they would be very interested in any 797 that Boeing offers. If TUI buys them, I could see them getting the 787 as well.
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oschkosch
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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:37 pm

A so called bridge loan of 380 Million Euro has been approved by German government.... Reported by reuters and DPA.

https://m.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/38 ... 51988.html

As far as I can tell, this is only for Condor DE, not for Thomas Cook Deutschland GmbH, that legal entity has separately applied for a bridge loan. And btw those 380 Million are taxpayers Eurodollars.

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Re: Condor and its links to Thomas Cook

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:39 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Breaking news: German government will make a decision about a cloe to 400 Million Euro loan for Condor, decision expected tonight.

https://m.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/wirts ... obile.html

But why does a "highly profitable" entity now need 400 Million?

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Now Der Spiegel is reporting that the Bundesregierung will give Condor the €380 million!!!!
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