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trex8
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:40 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
zkojq wrote:
The A340-300 is not a gas guzzler.

MIflyer wrote:
No? What was it that caused death by 777 for the 340-200/300/500/600, then?

OA412 wrote:
The 342/343 were not killed by the 777. The 343 competed respectably with the 777. In fact, the 343 and 772 were both killed by the 333, which has outsold both of them. The difference in sales between the 345 and 77L is tiny. They both sold under 100 frames. The only 340 variant that was truly "killed" by the 777 is the 346 with respect to the 77W.

Thank you zkojq and OA412.

Indeed, the A340-300 is not a gas guzzler and it was not killed by the 777.


From old post years ago by our resident CX pilot
A333 6 tons/hr
A343/772 6.6
A346 8.9
77W 8.1
744 11.1
 
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zkojq
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:32 am

OA412 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Saw one a few days ago in Auckland. By far the best looking aircraft around.

The A340-300 is not a gas guzzler.


No? What was it that caused death by 777 for the 340-200/300/500/600, then?

The 342/343 were not killed by the 777. The 343 competed respectably with the 777. In fact, the 343 and 772 were both killed by the 333, which has outsold both of them. The difference in sales between the 345 and 77L is tiny. They both sold under 100 frames. The only 340 variant that was truly "killed" by the 777 is the 346 with respect to the 77W.


Correct. It's ridiculous how a few people spreading misinformation turns into such a widely believed myth. Zeke posted fuel consumption figures and mission profiles at some point in the past. The 77E actually burns marginally more fuel than the A340-300 on some mission profiles. As Zeke has said here a few times, the fuel burn delta between the A350-1000 and the 77W is twice that of the delta between the 77W and the A340-600. Nobody goes around calling the 77W a "gas guzzler" so I guess that shows that there's a few agenda at play here.
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zkojq
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:37 am

birdbrainz wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Data or no data, I am sure many couples will be disappointed by 3-3-3 seating.


Well, then. They must be disappointed by the 3-3-3 on some of the A333's and 3-4-3 on the A350s. French Bee comes to mind. My only point here is that 3-3-3 is the norm on the A350, so it's not as though they'd be any happier on an A350, other than it being a tad wider. I'll admit though, that 3-3-3 is worse on a 787 than a 777, and 3-4-3 on an A350 is just plain wrong.


Thankfully French Blue / Air Caraïbes is the only A350 operator to have a ten abreast layout. Very few carriers have 3-3-3 on an A330, happily.
First to fly the 787-9
 
juliuswong
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:23 am

This thread deserves some of the best TN's A340 departing LAX!









- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:39 am

AleksW wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Surprising they operated those gas guzzlers for so long.

The A340-300 is not a gas guzzler.

I agree . . . AFAIK, A343 was burning about 5-6% more than A333 with the same weight.[/quote]
Considering that OEMs work for years to save 1-1.5% in fuel burn PIPs...... "5-6%" is a window as wide as the world.



juliuswong wrote:
This thread deserves some of the best TN's A340 departing SFO!

....those are all LAX
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:56 am

Sad to see the beautiful TN four-holers go. Loved seeing them in LAX or high overhead. The 787 is beautiful too, but it's not the same.

OA412 wrote:
The 342/343 were not killed by the 777. The 343 competed respectably with the 777. In fact, the 343 and 772 were both killed by the 333, which has outsold both of them. The difference in sales between the 345 and 77L is tiny. They both sold under 100 frames. The only 340 variant that was truly "killed" by the 777 is the 346 with respect to the 77W.


Hmmm,

510 (-200A/E only) vs 246 (A342/343) = not killed
789 vs 510 = killed
 
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hic787
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:20 am

Took one of these from CDG to LAX back in '05.. great time!

Loved the comfy configuration and the interior (good for the time!). These jets will be missed, but the weak must make way for the strong!
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:17 am

ikolkyo wrote:
I swear this is the only place in the world you hear people cry about 0.5-1“ of space. I’ve flown in all these configurations and look, Economy is Economy if you wanted a true change in comfort, pay up.

You don’t have to pay up when an A330, A340 or B767 is scheduled on your flight. That’s the nice thing about these aircraft types. Their economy class cabins are just so much more comfortable than aircraft that offer 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 seating. It’s not about 0.5-1” of space. It’s about spending 10+ hours with your loved one, family or friend and not having to put up with a third person in your row. Who wants to wake up a stranger in the middle of the night, because you can’t step over them for a restroom visit. That’s less of a problem when travelling with someone you know.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:47 am

MartijnNL wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I swear this is the only place in the world you hear people cry about 0.5-1“ of space. I’ve flown in all these configurations and look, Economy is Economy if you wanted a true change in comfort, pay up.

You don’t have to pay up when an A330, A340 or B767 is scheduled on your flight. That’s the nice thing about these aircraft types. Their economy class cabins are just so much more comfortable than aircraft that offer 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 seating. It’s not about 0.5-1” of space. It’s about spending 10+ hours with your loved one, family or friend and not having to put up with a third person in your row. Who wants to wake up a stranger in the middle of the night, because you can’t step over them for a restroom visit. That’s less of a problem when travelling with someone you know.


I take a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 over any other configuration in economy. Sadly it is not the norm anymore. The 767 is soon gonna be replaced (and my god, I expect it to be replaced by some kind of super economical aircraft, that is tighter seated then everything ever seen) and the 330neo is unfortunately not really taking off. So in 10 years all we have for comfortable economy is old A330s.
 
folov
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:59 am

F-OJGF AND F-OSEA are are schedule as ferry leaving PPT tonight at 0015 and 0045 Local time
 
303dk
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:11 am

folov wrote:
F-OJGF AND F-OSEA are are schedule as ferry leaving PPT tonight at 0015 and 0045 Local time

Was about to post that as of 7pm local time, I see both are on the ground at PPT. Walked right by
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:25 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
18 years isn’t that old, but these were some of the later build A340-300s.


I boarded the newest one whilst in pre-delivery state at the Paris Air Show 2005. It was explained this was the last passenger A340-300 to be built.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:22 am

Does anyone know what the future of the last two frames is? Hopefully they can avoid the scrapman.

JannEejit wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
18 years isn’t that old, but these were some of the later build A340-300s.


I boarded the newest one whilst in pre-delivery state at the Paris Air Show 2005. It was explained this was the last passenger A340-300 to be built.

Maybe the last one built at the time, but Finnair took delivery of some in 2008/2009. :smile:
First to fly the 787-9
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:27 pm

Having flown both the A340 and 787 (With LAN/LATAM Airlines), I did feel the A340 to be quieter and smoother than the 787. I will surely miss the old four-holer.
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:43 pm

zkojq wrote:
Does anyone know what the future of the last two frames is? Hopefully they can avoid the scrapman.

JannEejit wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
18 years isn’t that old, but these were some of the later build A340-300s.


I boarded the newest one whilst in pre-delivery state at the Paris Air Show 2005. It was explained this was the last passenger A340-300 to be built.

Maybe the last one built at the time, but Finnair took delivery of some in 2008/2009. :smile:

According to Airfleets, the last A340-300 was MSN 955, first flew in 09/2008 and delivered in 10/2008.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:57 pm

This old thread discusses the 77E vs. A343. Basically, the 77E maintains a higher resale value as they sell at the same cash operating costs, but the 77E has greater payload potential. See the Leeham links for more detail.

viewtopic.php?t=1375411

So we can debate here until Blue. Tahiti made a decision. Just as DL went with Airbus. My opinion is Boeing and Airbus are in a price war and Airbus was surprised with how agressive Boeing is willing to be with Air Tahiti, Hawaiian, and Air New Zealand.

Aircraft are sold on potential revenue versus potential costs. If Airbus bid higher cash operating costs or bad delivery times, that is on them.

I'm perfectly comfortable on planes many here complain about and I'm not small!

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
910A
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:37 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know their eventual fates? Like do we know if they're going to another operator, or is it the scrapyard for them?

The two aircraft are due to land at the Pinal Airpark (MZJ) between 1200 and 1300hrs MST today the 25th..
 
910A
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
Does anyone know what the future of the last two frames is? Hopefully they can avoid the scrapman.

JannEejit wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
18 years isn’t that old, but these were some of the later build A340-300s.


I boarded the newest one whilst in pre-delivery state at the Paris Air Show 2005. It was explained this was the last passenger A340-300 to be built.

Maybe the last one built at the time, but Finnair took delivery of some in 2008/2009. :smile:


All for are still flying with Air Belgium. I believe there was a private 343 built at the same time as these Finnair were assembled.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Tahiti made a decision. Just as DL went with Airbus. My opinion is Boeing and Airbus are in a price war and Airbus was surprised with how agressive Boeing is willing to be with Air Tahiti, Hawaiian, and Air New Zealand.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise about a price war, but FWIW the Air Tahiti Nui 787 order was back in 2015, way before the price war.

As an aside, I remember saying on a thread here at the time that the 787 order was just them sending a message to the French Government that they wanted them to handout some cash to buy them some A350s. I guess time for me to eat some Humble Pie. :spin:

910A wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know their eventual fates? Like do we know if they're going to another operator, or is it the scrapyard for them?

The two aircraft are due to land at the Pinal Airpark (MZJ) between 1200 and 1300hrs MST today the 25th..

Thanks
First to fly the 787-9
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:53 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Does anyone know what the future of the last two frames is? Hopefully they can avoid the scrapman.

JannEejit wrote:

I boarded the newest one whilst in pre-delivery state at the Paris Air Show 2005. It was explained this was the last passenger A340-300 to be built.

Maybe the last one built at the time, but Finnair took delivery of some in 2008/2009. :smile:

According to Airfleets, the last A340-300 was MSN 955, first flew in 09/2008 and delivered in 10/2008.



Yeah I doubted it at the time, a PR person onboard spouted that factoid at us as we wandered through.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:18 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Surprising they operated those gas guzzlers for so long.

zkojq wrote:
The A340-300 is not a gas guzzler.

AleksW wrote:
I agree . . . AFAIK, A343 was burning about 5-6% more than A333 with the same weight.

LAX772LR wrote:
Considering that OEMs work for years to save 1-1.5% in fuel burn PIPs...... "5-6%" is a window as wide as the world.

Still doesn’t make the A340-300 a gas guzzler.

What do OEMs and PIPs mean?
 
LH707330
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:31 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Surprising they operated those gas guzzlers for so long.

zkojq wrote:
The A340-300 is not a gas guzzler.

AleksW wrote:
I agree . . . AFAIK, A343 was burning about 5-6% more than A333 with the same weight.

LAX772LR wrote:
Considering that OEMs work for years to save 1-1.5% in fuel burn PIPs...... "5-6%" is a window as wide as the world.

Still doesn’t make the A340-300 a gas guzzler.

What do OEMs and PIPs mean?


OEM: original equipment manufacturer, could be airframe or engine, probably airframe in this context. PIP: performance improvement program/project, to get better engines.

FWIW, the 343 and 333 burn about the same at the same weight, but the 343 weighs a bit more due to the center gear and engines. I think the 5-6% comes from the longer average stage lengths, so it's not quite apples to apples. At the time, it compared reasonably well to the 777-200ER. What hobbled the 340 was the lack of multiple engine vendors: the 777 was a bloodbath on engine pricing while Snecma was loath to discount on the 343, so the 777 was often a better overall package.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:46 pm

zkojq wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Tahiti made a decision. Just as DL went with Airbus. My opinion is Boeing and Airbus are in a price war and Airbus was surprised with how agressive Boeing is willing to be with Air Tahiti, Hawaiian, and Air New Zealand.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise about a price war, but FWIW the Air Tahiti Nui 787 order was back in 2015, way before the price war.

As an aside, I remember saying on a thread here at the time that the 787 order was just them sending a message to the French Government that they wanted them to handout some cash to buy them some A350s. I guess time for me to eat some Humble Pie. :spin:

910A wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know their eventual fates? Like do we know if they're going to another operator, or is it the scrapyard for them?

The two aircraft are due to land at the Pinal Airpark (MZJ) between 1200 and 1300hrs MST today the 25th..

Thanks

I don't think we disagree, I think we have a divergence of opinion on when the price war started
Orders by year
Year. A330NEO A350 787
2014 121. -32. 41
2015 39. -3. 71
2016 44. 41. 58
2017 10. 36. 94
2018 16. 40. 109
2019 8 19. 61


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330neo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350_XWB
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner

In 2015 I see Boeing sales improving and Airbus sales waining. I believe at first targeted sales campaigns received discounts before it became a price war.

I'm sure there was political messaging, I doubt the economics were ignored.

I do ignore the A350 negative orders, as with the backlog, that was to be expected.

I believe Air Tahiti was made a good offer that Airbus wouldn't match.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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OA412
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:27 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
OA412 wrote:
The 342/343 were not killed by the 777. The 343 competed respectably with the 777. In fact, the 343 and 772 were both killed by the 333, which has outsold both of them. The difference in sales between the 345 and 77L is tiny. They both sold under 100 frames. The only 340 variant that was truly "killed" by the 777 is the 346 with respect to the 77W.


Hmmm,

510 (-200A/E only) vs 246 (A342/343) = not killed
789 vs 510 = killed

That doesn't tell the entire story. The 333 continued to sell in good numbers into this decade. In 2018, Airbus delivered 32 A330-300s. They are still delivering new A330-300s. Boeing last delivered a new 777-200ER in 2013, and no new orders have been received. As the 333s capabilities improved and it encroached upon 343/772 territory, airlines overwhelmingly went for the lighter and more efficient 333.
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PhilMcCrackin
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:34 pm

OA412 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
OA412 wrote:
The 342/343 were not killed by the 777. The 343 competed respectably with the 777. In fact, the 343 and 772 were both killed by the 333, which has outsold both of them. The difference in sales between the 345 and 77L is tiny. They both sold under 100 frames. The only 340 variant that was truly "killed" by the 777 is the 346 with respect to the 77W.


Hmmm,

510 (-200A/E only) vs 246 (A342/343) = not killed
789 vs 510 = killed

That doesn't tell the entire story. The 333 continued to sell in good numbers into this decade. In 2018, Airbus delivered 32 A330-300s. They are still delivering new A330-300s. Boeing last delivered a new 777-200ER in 2013, and no new orders have been received. As the 333s capabilities improved and it encroached upon 343/772 territory, airlines overwhelmingly went for the lighter and more efficient 333.


I would argue the success of the 77W has hurt the 772 as well. I can think of several airlines that haven't taken a 772 delivery in many years, but have relatively recently taken 77W deliveries.
 
zkncj
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:09 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Surprising they operated those gas guzzlers for so long. Also surprising that they are flying 787-9 and not A350-900.


They were bought and paid for which helped.

Rather than the A350-900, I'm surprised they didn't go for the A330-900NEO.



The 789 has better local support, both NZ and QF operate the 789 and is able to provide TN with engineering help when required.
 
910A
Topic Author
Posts: 1891
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Re: Goodbye Tahiti- 343's leave 24 Sept

Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:37 pm

Another interest tidbit from the final 343 flight from PPT to MZJ taken from TN's web site.

The pilots in charge of escorting the planes for their last departure from Tahiti, Didier Lecoq and Pascal Le Menn, were present. It was a particularly emotional moment for Pascal who celebrated his retirement at the same time. We wish him an excellent retirement!


Wonder if they had a water cannon salute at the Marana Air Park.

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