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klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:39 pm

IPFreely wrote:
kavok wrote:
DL is not going to drop out of DTW-LHR completely. There will always be at least one DL flight, as the market there is way too big. In addition to DTW, you also have all the DTW connecting flows (from the Midwest) to also feed that flight. With or without BA, DTW is always going to have at least 1 DL flight to LHR well into the foreseeable future.


One flight, no more, no less, is the right number. For o/d traffic Delta can charge a premium for the only nonstop flight. For connecting flows, passengers to the west and north of DTW can connect in MSP. Passengers to the east and south of DTW can connect in ATL (preferred by DL) or JFK. DTW is simply not needed as a connection to LHR in DL’s network.


That's it right there and that is why Delta is moving away from Detroit as a connecting hub in their system and basing their capacity more on O/D demand.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:36 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
kavok wrote:
Since DL (or any other airline) isn’t sharing their data, it has to be estimated based on the information available and reasonable judgment.

I don’t want to get into a profitability discussion, because the truth is none of us really know and Delta isn’t sharing. But I will say that the stage length between BOS/JFK-LHR is only about 15% shorter than DTW-BOS. And when you look at ticket price differences between what DL charges at DTW vs BOS and NYC... well let’s just say the difference is WELL above 15%. Others can make their own discernment, but it is probably safe to say DL makes decent revenue on that DTW-LHR flight.


There is no data to support any argument.
DTW average published fares are 15% higher,
Detroiters can connect(even backtrack) through other perpetual sale hubs,

Conclusion: There is no demand for DTW-LHR.

DTW-BOS is the best example of how DL will react to competition. pre-B6 $600+ RT on RJs, with B6, DL matched $180 RT. all A32Xs.

BTW, BA's LAX-LHR 2020 promotional fare is $332 RT.



It's good to know the good people of Southeaster Michigan are able and willing to fund these low fare prices for other markets especially when the Detroit area is so economically challenged like many on a.net would have us believe. The reason we pay more is because Delta through it's research know there is a lot of wealth in the Detroit area to capitalize on and it want's to keep that a secret.


It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.

The only markets TATL markets with lower prices on the legacies are NYC, BOS, WAS, ORD, SFO, LAX, and Florida. Everywhere else is gouged, whether making a connection or not, on AA, DL, or UA. It is not just a DL or DTW thing.

The reason, is because the markets listed above are the only ones served by a significant number of competitors. Everyone else has just one, or maybe two, legacy JVs serving the TATL route.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:52 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

There is no data to support any argument.
DTW average published fares are 15% higher,
Detroiters can connect(even backtrack) through other perpetual sale hubs,

Conclusion: There is no demand for DTW-LHR.

DTW-BOS is the best example of how DL will react to competition. pre-B6 $600+ RT on RJs, with B6, DL matched $180 RT. all A32Xs.

BTW, BA's LAX-LHR 2020 promotional fare is $332 RT.



It's good to know the good people of Southeaster Michigan are able and willing to fund these low fare prices for other markets especially when the Detroit area is so economically challenged like many on a.net would have us believe. The reason we pay more is because Delta through it's research know there is a lot of wealth in the Detroit area to capitalize on and it want's to keep that a secret.


It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.

The only markets TATL markets with lower prices on the legacies are NYC, BOS, WAS, ORD, SFO, LAX, and Florida. Everywhere else is gouged, whether making a connection or not, on AA, DL, or UA. It is not just a DL or DTW thing.

The reason, is because the markets listed above are the only ones served by a significant number of competitors. Everyone else has just one, or maybe two, legacy JVs serving the TATL route.


So why then continue to add capacity in markets that you have to basically give seats away when you can add capacity at your hubs where you have pricing power. While that maybe true in Detroit it is a Delta thing as almost ever airport of Detroit's size has one low cost international option while some have up to three. So while the legacies may not price match in places like DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW, MSP, PHL and the like they all have an option. Detroit does not.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:05 pm

klm617 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
kavok wrote:
DL is not going to drop out of DTW-LHR completely. There will always be at least one DL flight, as the market there is way too big. In addition to DTW, you also have all the DTW connecting flows (from the Midwest) to also feed that flight. With or without BA, DTW is always going to have at least 1 DL flight to LHR well into the foreseeable future.


One flight, no more, no less, is the right number. For o/d traffic Delta can charge a premium for the only nonstop flight. For connecting flows, passengers to the west and north of DTW can connect in MSP. Passengers to the east and south of DTW can connect in ATL (preferred by DL) or JFK. DTW is simply not needed as a connection to LHR in DL’s network.


That's it right there and that is why Delta is moving away from Detroit as a connecting hub in their system and basing their capacity more on O/D demand.


DL is not moving away, but choosing to focus their growth elsewhere. What is here is not decreasing (with the exception of maybe the second LHR flight). When it comes to DL TATL service, there are the Tier 1 hubs of ATL, JFK, and BOS..., and Tier 2 of DTW, MSP, SLC, and everyone else.

It is probably not much consolation, but DTW is and will remain the top Tier 2 DL hub when it comes to TATL service. That simply means if DL is going to expand TATL flying to a European destination from somewhere other than ATL, BOS, or JFK, that DTW will probably be the first to have it. (See FRA,MUC, FCO).

But it also means that DTW is not going to have the service level and frequency of ATL, BOS, and JFK. Expanding on that further, aside from CDG/AMS, when considering adding a second frequency to DTW-XXX, it will probably make more sense to add TATL service between MSP, SLC, SEA, PDX, etc. than add a second frequency to DTW. Take FCI for example... DL will most definitely add MSP-FCO or SLC-FCO before doubling service to DTW. But conversely if the economy goes south, DTW-FCO would be the last Tier 2 market to get cut.

But since this thread is focused on DTW growth, using that methodology the most likely additions by DL are to places like MAN and DUB (already served in 2020 by DL/VS to ATL, BOS, JFK). Either way, unless there is a unique business case to be made, DTW is probably not going to see any TATL destinations on DL metal that are not first served to ATL, BOS, or JFK.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8278
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:19 pm

kavok wrote:
It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.


It is a DL and Detroit thing.

I compared DL DTW-LHR non-stop fares with BOS/JFK/MSP/ATL-LHR for a Jan '20 round trip.

DTW is $1040 and all others are $830. Even LAX-LHR which is 1700 more miles is $925.

Was there ever any attempt by DL to offer promotional fares on DTW-LHR? Was there an attempt to stimulate the market to make second frequency permanent. No. All DL doing is to keep adjusting the capacity to keep fares higher.

Same over-saturated sale hubs get year around promotional fares, while captive markets are milked and branded as niche markets.
All posts are just opinions.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:26 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
kavok wrote:
It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.


It is a DL and Detroit thing.

I compared DL DTW-LHR non-stop fares with BOS/JFK/MSP/ATL-LHR for a Jan '20 round trip.

DTW is $1040 and all others are $830. Even LAX-LHR which is 1700 more miles is $925.

Was there ever any attempt by DL to offer promotional fares on DTW-LHR? Was there an attempt to stimulate the market to make second frequency permanent. No. All DL doing is to keep adjusting the capacity to keep fares higher.

Same over-saturated sale hubs get year around promotional fares, while captive markets are milked and branded as niche markets.



That's why it's imperative that the airport does whatever is necessary to get FI and EI in here ASAP before the next economic down turn because then you can kiss those options good-bye (What Delta wants). This dragging their feet is getting more than annoying as other airports pass up Detroit left and right with getting new service options. The only other 2 markets that are in the same boat as DTW are CLT and PHX but at least AA is investing in CLT where DL is not investing in Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:


It's good to know the good people of Southeaster Michigan are able and willing to fund these low fare prices for other markets especially when the Detroit area is so economically challenged like many on a.net would have us believe. The reason we pay more is because Delta through it's research know there is a lot of wealth in the Detroit area to capitalize on and it want's to keep that a secret.


It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.

The only markets TATL markets with lower prices on the legacies are NYC, BOS, WAS, ORD, SFO, LAX, and Florida. Everywhere else is gouged, whether making a connection or not, on AA, DL, or UA. It is not just a DL or DTW thing.

The reason, is because the markets listed above are the only ones served by a significant number of competitors. Everyone else has just one, or maybe two, legacy JVs serving the TATL route.


So why then continue to add capacity in markets that you have to basically give seats away when you can add capacity at your hubs where you have pricing power. While that maybe true in Detroit it is a Delta thing as almost ever airport of Detroit's size has one low cost international option while some have up to three. So while the legacies may not price match in places like DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW, MSP, PHL and the like they all have an option. Detroit does not.


To your first point: there are only a handful or destinations served by DL from DTW that are not also served by DL to ATL, JFK, or BOS. If the trip can be served via ATL, that is where DL gets the best bang for the buck pricing power. It is not a joke to say that if DL could push all connections through ATL, they would. It also makes good business sense.

DLs target audience for any DTW TATL flight consists of: 1)
the OD within a few hours drive of DTW itself, plus 2) the smaller markets served by DTW only, and 3) if necessary, enough other butts-in-seats from the Midwest to fill the flight. If DL can fill the flight on 1&2 alone, they will send group 3 to MSP and launch a second frequency from there.


To your second point: Detroit does have TATL options: you can choose DL/AF or LH to MUC/FRA. And yes, all are expensive. But just like Detroit, there are also multiple legacy options in many of the places you listed (DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW...). Because like DTW, the alliances in those other interior US hubs don’t offer lower prices... because they don’t have to. Demand far exceeds supply.

To expand on this further, it is obviously in the airlines financial interest that demand exceeds supply. DL/VS/KL/AF + LH/UA/AC + AA/IAG will all maintain that ratio in their favor if they can. Meanwhile, in places like NYC, you also have the other smaller European airlines flying there adding additional capacity. As a result, in places like NYC, 3 JVs. don’t control the market, so supply can exceed demand. That is why prices are lower there.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:32 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

One flight, no more, no less, is the right number. For o/d traffic Delta can charge a premium for the only nonstop flight. For connecting flows, passengers to the west and north of DTW can connect in MSP. Passengers to the east and south of DTW can connect in ATL (preferred by DL) or JFK. DTW is simply not needed as a connection to LHR in DL’s network.


That's it right there and that is why Delta is moving away from Detroit as a connecting hub in their system and basing their capacity more on O/D demand.


DL is not moving away, but choosing to focus their growth elsewhere. What is here is not decreasing (with the exception of maybe the second LHR flight). When it comes to DL TATL service, there are the Tier 1 hubs of ATL, JFK, and BOS..., and Tier 2 of DTW, MSP, SLC, and everyone else.

It is probably not much consolation, but DTW is and will remain the top Tier 2 DL hub when it comes to TATL service. That simply means if DL is going to expand TATL flying to a European destination from somewhere other than ATL, BOS, or JFK, that DTW will probably be the first to have it. (See FRA,MUC, FCO).

But it also means that DTW is not going to have the service level and frequency of ATL, BOS, and JFK. Expanding on that further, aside from CDG/AMS, when considering adding a second frequency to DTW-XXX, it will probably make more sense to add TATL service between MSP, SLC, SEA, PDX, etc. than add a second frequency to DTW. Take FCI for example... DL will most definitely add MSP-FCO or SLC-FCO before doubling service to DTW. But conversely if the economy goes south, DTW-FCO would be the last Tier 2 market to get cut.

But since this thread is focused on DTW growth, using that methodology the most likely additions by DL are to places like MAN and DUB (already served in 2020 by DL/VS to ATL, BOS, JFK). Either way, unless there is a unique business case to be made, DTW is probably not going to see any TATL destinations on DL metal that are not first served to ATL, BOS, or JFK.



I agree with everything you said here. Except for the fact that it should be ATL, JFK and DTW. Detroit is a way more powerful and profitable hub than Boston will ever be. MAN-DTW is way over due as they are both a VS and DL. DTW give the VS/DL one stop connections to the entire western United States without back tracking somethin ATL, JFK and BOS can not give them. But because Delta is now putting less emphasis on connections over Detroit markets like this are not being served. If I am flying MAN-DEN or any other western market there is no way I'm going to route myself over ATL.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:40 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:

It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.

The only markets TATL markets with lower prices on the legacies are NYC, BOS, WAS, ORD, SFO, LAX, and Florida. Everywhere else is gouged, whether making a connection or not, on AA, DL, or UA. It is not just a DL or DTW thing.

The reason, is because the markets listed above are the only ones served by a significant number of competitors. Everyone else has just one, or maybe two, legacy JVs serving the TATL route.


So why then continue to add capacity in markets that you have to basically give seats away when you can add capacity at your hubs where you have pricing power. While that maybe true in Detroit it is a Delta thing as almost ever airport of Detroit's size has one low cost international option while some have up to three. So while the legacies may not price match in places like DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW, MSP, PHL and the like they all have an option. Detroit does not.


To your first point: there are only a handful or destinations served by DL from DTW that are not also served by DL to ATL, JFK, or BOS. If the trip can be served via ATL, that is where DL gets the best bang for the buck pricing power. It is not a joke to say that if DL could push all connections through ATL, they would. It also makes good business sense.

DLs target audience for any DTW TATL flight consists of: 1)
the OD within a few hours drive of DTW itself, plus 2) the smaller markets served by DTW only, and 3) if necessary, enough other butts-in-seats from the Midwest to fill the flight. If DL can fill the flight on 1&2 alone, they will send group 3 to MSP and launch a second frequency from there.


To your second point: Detroit does have TATL options: you can choose DL/AF or LH to MUC/FRA. And yes, all are expensive. But just like Detroit, there are also multiple legacy options in many of the places you listed (DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW...). Because like DTW, the alliances in those other interior US hubs don’t offer lower prices... because they don’t have to. Demand far exceeds supply.

To expand on this further, it is obviously in the airlines financial interest that demand exceeds supply. DL/VS/KL/AF + LH/UA/AC + AA/IAG will all maintain that ratio in their favor if they can. Meanwhile, in places like NYC, you also have the other smaller European airlines flying there adding additional capacity. As a result, in places like NYC, 3 JVs. don’t control the market, so supply can exceed demand. That is why prices are lower there.


You're missing the point DTW does not have the option of TK, QR, FI, DE, EI or DY they only have the 3 high end price buckets. Every other airport of Detroit's size has at least on of these options. Delta can charge what ever they want but why should I be subject to their pricing when they are using a public facility that Michigan tax payers fund outside of the landing fees. My option should not be driving to YYZ or ORD just to get a fare below $1000 when the top 20 markets have this option. No one says airlines have to dump capacity into the major markets where there are giving capacity away in New York they can use the same capacity constraint as they use at DTW. You're only looking at the cooperate end of the spectrum and justifying by that.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:44 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
kavok wrote:
It is not a Detroit thing, not a DL thing. In general TATL prices aren’t any cheaper on UA out of IAH or DEN or AA out of CLT or DFW.


It is a DL and Detroit thing.

I compared DL DTW-LHR non-stop fares with BOS/JFK/MSP/ATL-LHR for a Jan '20 round trip.

DTW is $1040 and all others are $830. Even LAX-LHR which is 1700 more miles is $925.

Was there ever any attempt by DL to offer promotional fares on DTW-LHR? Was there an attempt to stimulate the market to make second frequency permanent. No. All DL doing is to keep adjusting the capacity to keep fares higher.

Same over-saturated sale hubs get year around promotional fares, while captive markets are milked and branded as niche markets.


As the post mentioned, I am talking DTW-TATL in general, and not just DTW-LHR. In my earlier posts, I have often mentioned that the DTW-LHR market is too big for one DL flight but not big enough for two. That puts DL in an awkward position, as they can’t fly half of a plane. In that particular case, the natural market equilibrium would be to have BA also fly DTW-LHR, along witH one DL flight. The BA flight would take some of the DL demand, and stimulate the rest (mostly via onward BA connections) to fill both flights.

If both BA and DL flew 1x DTW-LHR, prices would be comparable to MSP, ATL, DFW, IAH, etc., which is to say inline with most interior hubs, and still well above NYC, ORD, YYZ, etc.
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:

So why then continue to add capacity in markets that you have to basically give seats away when you can add capacity at your hubs where you have pricing power. While that maybe true in Detroit it is a Delta thing as almost ever airport of Detroit's size has one low cost international option while some have up to three. So while the legacies may not price match in places like DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW, MSP, PHL and the like they all have an option. Detroit does not.


To your first point: there are only a handful or destinations served by DL from DTW that are not also served by DL to ATL, JFK, or BOS. If the trip can be served via ATL, that is where DL gets the best bang for the buck pricing power. It is not a joke to say that if DL could push all connections through ATL, they would. It also makes good business sense.

DLs target audience for any DTW TATL flight consists of: 1)
the OD within a few hours drive of DTW itself, plus 2) the smaller markets served by DTW only, and 3) if necessary, enough other butts-in-seats from the Midwest to fill the flight. If DL can fill the flight on 1&2 alone, they will send group 3 to MSP and launch a second frequency from there.


To your second point: Detroit does have TATL options: you can choose DL/AF or LH to MUC/FRA. And yes, all are expensive. But just like Detroit, there are also multiple legacy options in many of the places you listed (DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW...). Because like DTW, the alliances in those other interior US hubs don’t offer lower prices... because they don’t have to. Demand far exceeds supply.

To expand on this further, it is obviously in the airlines financial interest that demand exceeds supply. DL/VS/KL/AF + LH/UA/AC + AA/IAG will all maintain that ratio in their favor if they can. Meanwhile, in places like NYC, you also have the other smaller European airlines flying there adding additional capacity. As a result, in places like NYC, 3 JVs. don’t control the market, so supply can exceed demand. That is why prices are lower there.


You're missing the point DTW does not have the option of TK, QR, FI, DE, EI or DY they only have the 3 high end price buckets. Every other airport of Detroit's size has at least on of these options. Delta can charge what ever they want but why should I be subject to their pricing when they are using a public facility that Michigan tax payers fund outside of the landing fees. My option should not be driving to YYZ or ORD just to get a fare below $1000 when the top 20 markets have this option. No one says airlines have to dump capacity into the major markets where there are giving capacity away in New York they can use the same capacity constraint as they use at DTW. You're only looking at the cooperate end of the spectrum and justifying by that.


Now we are talking about something else. My posts were referring to DL’s (and to a lesser extent the other 3 JVs) TATL pricing. Even if hypothetically DTW had service on one of the airlines you just mentioned, DLs or LHs pricing from DTW isn’t going to change. And that is because DL, LH, and the other airlines in the 3 JVs are targeting different audiences than the airlines you mentioned. Places like MSP, ATL, and DFW that have one or more from that list don’t see low TATL pricing on the 3JVs despite the existence of TATL LCC.

Now, as an armchair A.net poster, I totally agree that it would appear the market is there at DTW for both a ME flight (TK or QR or someone else), and a TATL LCC flight (FI, EI, DY). There is definitely a large enough market of people in DTW who would choose a LCC option (and the cost savings that come with it). But the main point is that such an addition would have minimal effect of the pricing of DL (or LH). Look at what happened when WW was around, and DL didn’t do a thing. But yes, it is odd there is no LCC in DTW, though that is mostly due to WW going bankrupt.

I will concede that EI launching DTW-DUB may finally spur DL to also launch that particular route, but arguably DL could probably fly DTW-DUB today anyway if they had a few more 757s available. DE is never going to happen with LH here. And DY has plenty of financial issues. Meanwhile FI is down on planes because of the Max issue, and once they get enough planes again they will have to decide whether to pick-up on WW’s success in DTW, or relaunch CLE and be the only game in town.

TK and the other ME3 is a whole different discussion, and likely involves politics as much as business cases.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:19 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:

To your first point: there are only a handful or destinations served by DL from DTW that are not also served by DL to ATL, JFK, or BOS. If the trip can be served via ATL, that is where DL gets the best bang for the buck pricing power. It is not a joke to say that if DL could push all connections through ATL, they would. It also makes good business sense.

DLs target audience for any DTW TATL flight consists of: 1)
the OD within a few hours drive of DTW itself, plus 2) the smaller markets served by DTW only, and 3) if necessary, enough other butts-in-seats from the Midwest to fill the flight. If DL can fill the flight on 1&2 alone, they will send group 3 to MSP and launch a second frequency from there.


To your second point: Detroit does have TATL options: you can choose DL/AF or LH to MUC/FRA. And yes, all are expensive. But just like Detroit, there are also multiple legacy options in many of the places you listed (DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW...). Because like DTW, the alliances in those other interior US hubs don’t offer lower prices... because they don’t have to. Demand far exceeds supply.

To expand on this further, it is obviously in the airlines financial interest that demand exceeds supply. DL/VS/KL/AF + LH/UA/AC + AA/IAG will all maintain that ratio in their favor if they can. Meanwhile, in places like NYC, you also have the other smaller European airlines flying there adding additional capacity. As a result, in places like NYC, 3 JVs. don’t control the market, so supply can exceed demand. That is why prices are lower there.


You're missing the point DTW does not have the option of TK, QR, FI, DE, EI or DY they only have the 3 high end price buckets. Every other airport of Detroit's size has at least on of these options. Delta can charge what ever they want but why should I be subject to their pricing when they are using a public facility that Michigan tax payers fund outside of the landing fees. My option should not be driving to YYZ or ORD just to get a fare below $1000 when the top 20 markets have this option. No one says airlines have to dump capacity into the major markets where there are giving capacity away in New York they can use the same capacity constraint as they use at DTW. You're only looking at the cooperate end of the spectrum and justifying by that.


Now we are talking about something else. My posts were referring to DL’s (and to a lesser extent the other 3 JVs) TATL pricing. Even if hypothetically DTW had service on one of the airlines you just mentioned, DLs or LHs pricing from DTW isn’t going to change. And that is because DL, LH, and the other airlines in the 3 JVs are targeting different audiences than the airlines you mentioned. Places like MSP, ATL, and DFW that have one or more from that list don’t see low TATL pricing on the 3JVs despite the existence of TATL LCC.

Now, as an armchair A.net poster, I totally agree that it would appear the market is there at DTW for both a ME flight (TK or QR or someone else), and a TATL LCC flight (FI, EI, DY). There is definitely a large enough market of people in DTW who would choose a LCC option (and the cost savings that come with it). But the main point is that such an addition would have minimal effect of the pricing of DL (or LH). Look at what happened when WW was around, and DL didn’t do a thing. But yes, it is odd there is no LCC in DTW, though that is mostly due to WW going bankrupt.

I will concede that EI launching DTW-DUB may finally spur DL to also launch that particular route, but arguably DL could probably fly DTW-DUB today anyway if they had a few more 757s available. DE is never going to happen with LH here. And DY has plenty of financial issues. Meanwhile FI is down on planes because of the Max issue, and once they get enough planes again they will have to decide whether to pick-up on WW’s success in DTW, or relaunch CLE and be the only game in town.

TK and the other ME3 is a whole different discussion, and likely involves politics as much as business cases.


I don't care what Delta charges they can keep charging their high fares for those who want to pay them. DL and LH can charge what ever they want I don't want options in Detroit just to bring DL and LH fares down I want another fare level to chose from that is more affordable for those who are not flush with cash or on a tight budget. If I have to fly DTW-DUB-CDG or DTW-KEF-CDG to save a couple bucks I don't care. It's not about getting Delta to lower their fares but providing another option that cost less rather than driving to YYZ or ORD. FI just closed some routes and said they are looking for more profitable routes for summer of 2020 so FI is in play. Well good marketing on the airports part could push them over that edge into adding Detroit but a wait and see attitude won't help. I actual thing the new WOW is a better fit for Detroit than FI along with EI in the mix. All could coexist without hurting each other. DL, LH, EI and WW. Remember though DTW gets you all of MI, OH, part of IN and Ontario while adding CLE get's you only the OH market and maybe some PA customers nothing more.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:27 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:

To your first point: there are only a handful or destinations served by DL from DTW that are not also served by DL to ATL, JFK, or BOS. If the trip can be served via ATL, that is where DL gets the best bang for the buck pricing power. It is not a joke to say that if DL could push all connections through ATL, they would. It also makes good business sense.

DLs target audience for any DTW TATL flight consists of: 1)
the OD within a few hours drive of DTW itself, plus 2) the smaller markets served by DTW only, and 3) if necessary, enough other butts-in-seats from the Midwest to fill the flight. If DL can fill the flight on 1&2 alone, they will send group 3 to MSP and launch a second frequency from there.


To your second point: Detroit does have TATL options: you can choose DL/AF or LH to MUC/FRA. And yes, all are expensive. But just like Detroit, there are also multiple legacy options in many of the places you listed (DEN, IAH, ATL, DFW...). Because like DTW, the alliances in those other interior US hubs don’t offer lower prices... because they don’t have to. Demand far exceeds supply.

To expand on this further, it is obviously in the airlines financial interest that demand exceeds supply. DL/VS/KL/AF + LH/UA/AC + AA/IAG will all maintain that ratio in their favor if they can. Meanwhile, in places like NYC, you also have the other smaller European airlines flying there adding additional capacity. As a result, in places like NYC, 3 JVs. don’t control the market, so supply can exceed demand. That is why prices are lower there.


You're missing the point DTW does not have the option of TK, QR, FI, DE, EI or DY they only have the 3 high end price buckets. Every other airport of Detroit's size has at least on of these options. Delta can charge what ever they want but why should I be subject to their pricing when they are using a public facility that Michigan tax payers fund outside of the landing fees. My option should not be driving to YYZ or ORD just to get a fare below $1000 when the top 20 markets have this option. No one says airlines have to dump capacity into the major markets where there are giving capacity away in New York they can use the same capacity constraint as they use at DTW. You're only looking at the cooperate end of the spectrum and justifying by that.


Now we are talking about something else. My posts were referring to DL’s (and to a lesser extent the other 3 JVs) TATL pricing. Even if hypothetically DTW had service on one of the airlines you just mentioned, DLs or LHs pricing from DTW isn’t going to change. And that is because DL, LH, and the other airlines in the 3 JVs are targeting different audiences than the airlines you mentioned. Places like MSP, ATL, and DFW that have one or more from that list don’t see low TATL pricing on the 3JVs despite the existence of TATL LCC.

Now, as an armchair A.net poster, I totally agree that it would appear the market is there at DTW for both a ME flight (TK or QR or someone else), and a TATL LCC flight (FI, EI, DY). There is definitely a large enough market of people in DTW who would choose a LCC option (and the cost savings that come with it). But the main point is that such an addition would have minimal effect of the pricing of DL (or LH). Look at what happened when WW was around, and DL didn’t do a thing. But yes, it is odd there is no LCC in DTW, though that is mostly due to WW going bankrupt.

I will concede that EI launching DTW-DUB may finally spur DL to also launch that particular route, but arguably DL could probably fly DTW-DUB today anyway if they had a few more 757s available. DE is never going to happen with LH here. And DY has plenty of financial issues. Meanwhile FI is down on planes because of the Max issue, and once they get enough planes again they will have to decide whether to pick-up on WW’s success in DTW, or relaunch CLE and be the only game in town.

TK and the other ME3 is a whole different discussion, and likely involves politics as much as business cases.



By the way I want to thank you for being objective here as we toss ideas back and forth it is much appreciated. Discussions are about you hearing me and me hearing you not one person trying to convince the other that their way of thinking is the only acceptable logic.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:

You're missing the point DTW does not have the option of TK, QR, FI, DE, EI or DY they only have the 3 high end price buckets. Every other airport of Detroit's size has at least on of these options. Delta can charge what ever they want but why should I be subject to their pricing when they are using a public facility that Michigan tax payers fund outside of the landing fees. My option should not be driving to YYZ or ORD just to get a fare below $1000 when the top 20 markets have this option. No one says airlines have to dump capacity into the major markets where there are giving capacity away in New York they can use the same capacity constraint as they use at DTW. You're only looking at the cooperate end of the spectrum and justifying by that.


Now we are talking about something else. My posts were referring to DL’s (and to a lesser extent the other 3 JVs) TATL pricing. Even if hypothetically DTW had service on one of the airlines you just mentioned, DLs or LHs pricing from DTW isn’t going to change. And that is because DL, LH, and the other airlines in the 3 JVs are targeting different audiences than the airlines you mentioned. Places like MSP, ATL, and DFW that have one or more from that list don’t see low TATL pricing on the 3JVs despite the existence of TATL LCC.

Now, as an armchair A.net poster, I totally agree that it would appear the market is there at DTW for both a ME flight (TK or QR or someone else), and a TATL LCC flight (FI, EI, DY). There is definitely a large enough market of people in DTW who would choose a LCC option (and the cost savings that come with it). But the main point is that such an addition would have minimal effect of the pricing of DL (or LH). Look at what happened when WW was around, and DL didn’t do a thing. But yes, it is odd there is no LCC in DTW, though that is mostly due to WW going bankrupt.

I will concede that EI launching DTW-DUB may finally spur DL to also launch that particular route, but arguably DL could probably fly DTW-DUB today anyway if they had a few more 757s available. DE is never going to happen with LH here. And DY has plenty of financial issues. Meanwhile FI is down on planes because of the Max issue, and once they get enough planes again they will have to decide whether to pick-up on WW’s success in DTW, or relaunch CLE and be the only game in town.

TK and the other ME3 is a whole different discussion, and likely involves politics as much as business cases.


I don't care what Delta charges they can keep charging their high fares for those who want to pay them. DL and LH can charge what ever they want I don't want options in Detroit just to bring DL and LH fares down I want another fare level to chose from that is more affordable for those who are not flush with cash or on a tight budget. If I have to fly DTW-DUB-CDG or DTW-KEF-CDG to save a couple bucks I don't care. It's not about getting Delta to lower their fares but providing another option that cost less rather than driving to YYZ or ORD. FI just closed some routes and said they are looking for more profitable routes for summer of 2020 so FI is in play. Well good marketing on the airports part could push them over that edge into adding Detroit but a wait and see attitude won't help. I actual thing the new WOW is a better fit for Detroit than FI along with EI in the mix. All could coexist without hurting each other. DL, LH, EI and WW. Remember though DTW gets you all of MI, OH, part of IN and Ontario while adding CLE get's you only the OH market and maybe some PA customers nothing more.


I agree that for someone like yourself, who basically just wants LCC TATL service, that not having those options In DTW is very frustrating. Just like some people prefer the cost savings of flying NK from DTW to Florida in the winter, there are different strokes for different folks. I get it, and DTW has to be the largest market in America with no TATL LCC. So it is hard to make a market case why there are none at DTW.

And to take it one step further, we are basically talking about DTW getting EI or FI, or less likely DY. The question I have is, when/if either EI or FI decide to expand again, do significant financial promises need to be made for DTW to get chosen? And if so, who pays and is it worth it? And I don’t mean the landing fee waiver and promotional stuff offered by the WCAA... I am talking about the bigger incentives that can only be offered by someone other than the airport authority.

Minnesota put together a package to get EI. It worked. Other cities are no doubt putting together packages to court EI and FI as well, in a pay to play courting ritual. Fundamentally I personally am not a fan of the incentives game, but if everyone else is doing it, sometimes you have to keep up with the Jones. But, compared to a lot of the competition, DTW is also a much bigger market too, which means it may not be needed (and thus wasted incentive money that was unnecessary)
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:36 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:

Now we are talking about something else. My posts were referring to DL’s (and to a lesser extent the other 3 JVs) TATL pricing. Even if hypothetically DTW had service on one of the airlines you just mentioned, DLs or LHs pricing from DTW isn’t going to change. And that is because DL, LH, and the other airlines in the 3 JVs are targeting different audiences than the airlines you mentioned. Places like MSP, ATL, and DFW that have one or more from that list don’t see low TATL pricing on the 3JVs despite the existence of TATL LCC.

Now, as an armchair A.net poster, I totally agree that it would appear the market is there at DTW for both a ME flight (TK or QR or someone else), and a TATL LCC flight (FI, EI, DY). There is definitely a large enough market of people in DTW who would choose a LCC option (and the cost savings that come with it). But the main point is that such an addition would have minimal effect of the pricing of DL (or LH). Look at what happened when WW was around, and DL didn’t do a thing. But yes, it is odd there is no LCC in DTW, though that is mostly due to WW going bankrupt.

I will concede that EI launching DTW-DUB may finally spur DL to also launch that particular route, but arguably DL could probably fly DTW-DUB today anyway if they had a few more 757s available. DE is never going to happen with LH here. And DY has plenty of financial issues. Meanwhile FI is down on planes because of the Max issue, and once they get enough planes again they will have to decide whether to pick-up on WW’s success in DTW, or relaunch CLE and be the only game in town.

TK and the other ME3 is a whole different discussion, and likely involves politics as much as business cases.


I don't care what Delta charges they can keep charging their high fares for those who want to pay them. DL and LH can charge what ever they want I don't want options in Detroit just to bring DL and LH fares down I want another fare level to chose from that is more affordable for those who are not flush with cash or on a tight budget. If I have to fly DTW-DUB-CDG or DTW-KEF-CDG to save a couple bucks I don't care. It's not about getting Delta to lower their fares but providing another option that cost less rather than driving to YYZ or ORD. FI just closed some routes and said they are looking for more profitable routes for summer of 2020 so FI is in play. Well good marketing on the airports part could push them over that edge into adding Detroit but a wait and see attitude won't help. I actual thing the new WOW is a better fit for Detroit than FI along with EI in the mix. All could coexist without hurting each other. DL, LH, EI and WW. Remember though DTW gets you all of MI, OH, part of IN and Ontario while adding CLE get's you only the OH market and maybe some PA customers nothing more.


I agree that for someone like yourself, who basically just wants LCC TATL service, that not having those options In DTW is very frustrating. Just like some people prefer the cost savings of flying NK from DTW to Florida in the winter, there are different strokes for different folks. I get it, and DTW has to be the largest market in America with no TATL LCC. So it is hard to make a market case why there are none at DTW.

And to take it one step further, we are basically talking about DTW getting EI or FI, or less likely DY. The question I have is, when/if either EI or FI decide to expand again, do significant financial promises need to be made for DTW to get chosen? And if so, who pays and is it worth it? And I don’t mean the landing fee waiver and promotional stuff offered by the WCAA... I am talking about the bigger incentives that can only be offered by someone other than the airport authority.

Minnesota put together a package to get EI. It worked. Other cities are no doubt putting together packages to court EI and FI as well, in a pay to play courting ritual. Fundamentally I personally am not a fan of the incentives game, but if everyone else is doing it, sometimes you have to keep up with the Jones. But, compared to a lot of the competition, DTW is also a much bigger market too, which means it may not be needed (and thus wasted incentive money that was unnecessary)


I get that and agree with you about the market being big enough and if the airport doesn't want to put up cash it should be spending a lot of effort on putting tighter numbers that support the protentional of the Detroit market. If LH sees that it can virtually double it's capacity at DTW while passing over PHL, ATL and DFW there must be something there and if WW in dire final trouble kept DTW along with places like YYZ, YUL, BOS and EWR that is a good indicter as well and held a 60%+ at DTW load factor when the media was reporting their demise. Now I think the airport is wrong because a few dollars up front would go a long way because of the return potential on that investment. No as we all know once the incentives run out the service is withdrawn like in PIT, CLE and MCI so they don't really sustain service. The other thing that is mind boggling is if MSP felt it needed to come up with a package and effectively did so to level the playing field and give that market more options why doesn't Detroit feel that same need to give the customers that option that use DTW to start and end their journey's. We could already be in the 3rd year of an established FI market had the airport had more vision and did what needed to be done to bring them into Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:

Now we are talking about something else. My posts were referring to DL’s (and to a lesser extent the other 3 JVs) TATL pricing. Even if hypothetically DTW had service on one of the airlines you just mentioned, DLs or LHs pricing from DTW isn’t going to change. And that is because DL, LH, and the other airlines in the 3 JVs are targeting different audiences than the airlines you mentioned. Places like MSP, ATL, and DFW that have one or more from that list don’t see low TATL pricing on the 3JVs despite the existence of TATL LCC.

Now, as an armchair A.net poster, I totally agree that it would appear the market is there at DTW for both a ME flight (TK or QR or someone else), and a TATL LCC flight (FI, EI, DY). There is definitely a large enough market of people in DTW who would choose a LCC option (and the cost savings that come with it). But the main point is that such an addition would have minimal effect of the pricing of DL (or LH). Look at what happened when WW was around, and DL didn’t do a thing. But yes, it is odd there is no LCC in DTW, though that is mostly due to WW going bankrupt.

I will concede that EI launching DTW-DUB may finally spur DL to also launch that particular route, but arguably DL could probably fly DTW-DUB today anyway if they had a few more 757s available. DE is never going to happen with LH here. And DY has plenty of financial issues. Meanwhile FI is down on planes because of the Max issue, and once they get enough planes again they will have to decide whether to pick-up on WW’s success in DTW, or relaunch CLE and be the only game in town.

TK and the other ME3 is a whole different discussion, and likely involves politics as much as business cases.


I don't care what Delta charges they can keep charging their high fares for those who want to pay them. DL and LH can charge what ever they want I don't want options in Detroit just to bring DL and LH fares down I want another fare level to chose from that is more affordable for those who are not flush with cash or on a tight budget. If I have to fly DTW-DUB-CDG or DTW-KEF-CDG to save a couple bucks I don't care. It's not about getting Delta to lower their fares but providing another option that cost less rather than driving to YYZ or ORD. FI just closed some routes and said they are looking for more profitable routes for summer of 2020 so FI is in play. Well good marketing on the airports part could push them over that edge into adding Detroit but a wait and see attitude won't help. I actual thing the new WOW is a better fit for Detroit than FI along with EI in the mix. All could coexist without hurting each other. DL, LH, EI and WW. Remember though DTW gets you all of MI, OH, part of IN and Ontario while adding CLE get's you only the OH market and maybe some PA customers nothing more.


I agree that for someone like yourself, who basically just wants LCC TATL service, that not having those options In DTW is very frustrating. Just like some people prefer the cost savings of flying NK from DTW to Florida in the winter, there are different strokes for different folks. I get it, and DTW has to be the largest market in America with no TATL LCC. So it is hard to make a market case why there are none at DTW.

And to take it one step further, we are basically talking about DTW getting EI or FI, or less likely DY. The question I have is, when/if either EI or FI decide to expand again, do significant financial promises need to be made for DTW to get chosen? And if so, who pays and is it worth it? And I don’t mean the landing fee waiver and promotional stuff offered by the WCAA... I am talking about the bigger incentives that can only be offered by someone other than the airport authority.

Minnesota put together a package to get EI. It worked. Other cities are no doubt putting together packages to court EI and FI as well, in a pay to play courting ritual. Fundamentally I personally am not a fan of the incentives game, but if everyone else is doing it, sometimes you have to keep up with the Jones. But, compared to a lot of the competition, DTW is also a much bigger market too, which means it may not be needed (and thus wasted incentive money that was unnecessary)


The WCAA knowing what needs to be done to get these carriers should be the go between these carriers and people who could potentially help get these 2 carriers into Detroit. The airport should know within the local community who to contact to get the support that is needed to make these flights happen. I understand that the Michigan visitor's beauro help in getting the DTW-MUC flight so perhaps get them involved there are ways.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:25 am

Lol, ok, as a Detroiter I don't know what's worse to listen to... People's reactions to the horror show that is someone suggesting DTW could do more to attract other airlines, or, and in my opinion, way worse, people stereotyping Detroit as a dumpster fire of a city to go to...

And that is what I choose to focus my next few sentences on.

The issue with the internet is everyone can hide who or what they actually are. I'm positive that many of these posters dumping on Detroit or Michigan, but Detroit especially, are either childish av geeks who know nothing about the city or are stubborn bores who also have no idea because they have never visited the city.. but I'm sure are experts because they have a cousin who lived in Detroit for 6 months in 1998.

Let me put you straight. Its true.. the city isnt the sprawling global hub like NYC, it hasn't got the beaches and palm trees of Miami, it doesn't have the celebrity appeal of Los Angeles, It hasn't got the charm of Charleston or Savannah, it doesn't have the popularity of Austin or Portland.. but to think that just because it hasn't got that "brand appeal" as cities like those above do.... That's just plain stupid ignorance. Laughably stupid.

Detroit is more and more becoming a "cool" place to be, not something a keyboard crusader would ever care about but for those people who actually like to explore new places, go to places with history etc, Detroit is certainly the blossoming place to visit. New skyscrapers are being built by the Hudson group, beautiful and chic hotels are opening, the once derelict and abandoned buildings that once were thriving during the motown heydays are being repurposed and recused by big players like Ford.
The downtown, new center and university districts are full of "lofts" and apartments full of Doctors, med students, young engineers and IT folk thanks to DMC, Henry Ford, GM, Google, Quicken, Wayne State Uni etc ...these people bring with them disposable income which brings restaurants, shopping, bars.
They instagram every meal at every trendy new night spot, visitors coming downtown for games take selfies next to urban artist murals, Netflix documentaries give the once proud and wealthy city a gritty underdog feel, coming back from knockout punches like Kwame, the housing collapse and subsequent problems in the motor industry and eventual bankruptcy.

Then look at the surrounding cities in the immediate area... Royal Oak, Ferndale, Birmingham, Rochester etc... Booming towns with history, luxury hotels, highly rated restaurants,bars and entertainment, most on the same street that goes straight to the heart of downtown Detroit (Woodward). Then you have Ann Arbor which is a great little university town with a huge medical presence and an affluent demographic.

..oh but Detroit is so unsafe.. I hear its the"murder capital of America" (insert eye roll) ... yes the city has crime issues, just like any other big city in the USA, or anywhere. How many people on this forum have heard about the tragic gun violence plaguing Chicago? Yet how many people honestly avoid traveling to the city because of it...
True the "regeneration" of the city hasn't hit the poorer neighborhoods and of course crime is rampant and the poverty and homelessness is a crisis, however this again is prevalent in a lot of cities and its a crisis that will sadly always need attention throughout America and a lot of western countries in general. Yet things are actually slowly being done, taking out politics which I'm sure delays things, a lot of the neighborhoods are pooling together to clean up streets, turn open lots into urban farms, clean up grassland that otherwise would be overgrown. Some even turn derelict eye sores into art projects.

And this is where the history of Detroit stumbles the uneducated... it allows people, ignorant people who want to sound knowledgeable, to make silly remarks about how nasty and crappy the city must be. After all it went bankrupt, half the population left leaving just criminals and every other building is currently on fire. If that's you... Then firstly go research your comment before typing it, secondly, come to Detroit and look for yourself. Please. Even if your not looking for cool restaurants or fancy bars, at least come see how wrong you are about the city being akin to a wild west ghost town with tumble weeds rolling thru abandoned motor plants.

And for those who think that airlines are only flying people from one city to another city... again... educate yourself because that's a childish and ignorant thought process.
I travel from a city 1.5hrs north of Detroit to a city 2hrs north of London, I use the Detroit to London flight as its the closest city pair to what I actually want... otherwise I'd be flying from Flint MI to Birmingham UK if I could. Detroit serves a lot of the state for air travel and Michigan is once again becoming more affluent, the new generation of wealthy adults do not all depend on the motor industry like the generations before them.

And then you have the state itself as a destination.. Michigan is more than Detroit, its a beautiful state with more coastline than any other state except Alaska, it has everything. Hot summers, Snowy Winters and everything that comes with those... Water sports, snowboarding, skiing. It has dozens of sleepy little coastal towns, vineyards, tons of breweries...I could go on.

So to smash the city of Detroit because..."no-one wants to go there"... You are basically showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

I do have many opinions on the aviation plight of Detroit too, much as I do about BHX in England, I'm 37 and worked at both airports for major airlines, however unless you are actually present in meetings that take place between executives, airlines, handling agents etc... It will always be guesswork and speculating on our part. Even if you think you know something or something is "obvious" ...And that goes both ways for any airport and airline... Just because there may be a glaringly big reason for an airline NOT to fly to a city, like Detroit, it doesn't mean something might not change later on, and doesn't mean its ridiculous not to hope and wish. Case and point...how many people a few years ago wouldve thought WOW or Icelandair would move into airports like Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland etc... Yet they came and people used them. I know personally 4 families who historically only ever traveled to Disney in Florida from Mid Michigan or drove to Tennessee or went to visit family in San Diego..but when they heard about this new airline called WOW they thought that maybe Europe was not beyond their reach... They did a budget, planned it and had the best trips..one family went to Stratford upon E
Avon and London in England, one ended up in Bavaria in Germany and the others I think ended up in southern Europe... All because of one airline and the curiosity it created... Or as we know it as Market Stimulation! That's just a simple real life experience I have, and it doesn't mean that would happen if airlines like TK, EI, EK, etc would start services to Detroit or if DL started new routes like MAN... but equally airlines research stuff and have access to data that we don't so don't write off something happening because it doesn't make sense to you.

My rant is over, but my points stand... unless you know the facts and have a balanced opinion based on experience, don't state things you have no clue about. Don't discredit a city and its value based on its past, and don't assume things because of what you "think", or remember from something that happened a decade ago...It is degrading to the citizens and workers who are proud of the work they have put in to help revitalize a once dying and bankrupt city..

I personally would like to see TK, QR, BA come to DTW, I'm sure at some point something may change to make it happen, but for now I'm happy with what I have and have optimism for the future. Some of you should try that...
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:26 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Lol, ok, as a Detroiter I don't know what's worse to listen to... People's reactions to the horror show that is someone suggesting DTW could do more to attract other airlines, or, and in my opinion, way worse, people stereotyping Detroit as a dumpster fire of a city to go to...

And that is what I choose to focus my next few sentences on.

The issue with the internet is everyone can hide who or what they actually are. I'm positive that many of these posters dumping on Detroit or Michigan, but Detroit especially, are either childish av geeks who know nothing about the city or are stubborn bores who also have no idea because they have never visited the city.. but I'm sure are experts because they have a cousin who lived in Detroit for 6 months in 1998.

Let me put you straight. Its true.. the city isnt the sprawling global hub like NYC, it hasn't got the beaches and palm trees of Miami, it doesn't have the celebrity appeal of Los Angeles, It hasn't got the charm of Charleston or Savannah, it doesn't have the popularity of Austin or Portland.. but to think that just because it hasn't got that "brand appeal" as cities like those above do.... That's just plain stupid ignorance. Laughably stupid.

Detroit is more and more becoming a "cool" place to be, not something a keyboard crusader would ever care about but for those people who actually like to explore new places, go to places with history etc, Detroit is certainly the blossoming place to visit. New skyscrapers are being built by the Hudson group, beautiful and chic hotels are opening, the once derelict and abandoned buildings that once were thriving during the motown heydays are being repurposed and recused by big players like Ford.
The downtown, new center and university districts are full of "lofts" and apartments full of Doctors, med students, young engineers and IT folk thanks to DMC, Henry Ford, GM, Google, Quicken, Wayne State Uni etc ...these people bring with them disposable income which brings restaurants, shopping, bars.
They instagram every meal at every trendy new night spot, visitors coming downtown for games take selfies next to urban artist murals, Netflix documentaries give the once proud and wealthy city a gritty underdog feel, coming back from knockout punches like Kwame, the housing collapse and subsequent problems in the motor industry and eventual bankruptcy.

Then look at the surrounding cities in the immediate area... Royal Oak, Ferndale, Birmingham, Rochester etc... Booming towns with history, luxury hotels, highly rated restaurants,bars and entertainment, most on the same street that goes straight to the heart of downtown Detroit (Woodward). Then you have Ann Arbor which is a great little university town with a huge medical presence and an affluent demographic.

..oh but Detroit is so unsafe.. I hear its the"murder capital of America" (insert eye roll) ... yes the city has crime issues, just like any other big city in the USA, or anywhere. How many people on this forum have heard about the tragic gun violence plaguing Chicago? Yet how many people honestly avoid traveling to the city because of it...
True the "regeneration" of the city hasn't hit the poorer neighborhoods and of course crime is rampant and the poverty and homelessness is a crisis, however this again is prevalent in a lot of cities and its a crisis that will sadly always need attention throughout America and a lot of western countries in general. Yet things are actually slowly being done, taking out politics which I'm sure delays things, a lot of the neighborhoods are pooling together to clean up streets, turn open lots into urban farms, clean up grassland that otherwise would be overgrown. Some even turn derelict eye sores into art projects.

And this is where the history of Detroit stumbles the uneducated... it allows people, ignorant people who want to sound knowledgeable, to make silly remarks about how nasty and crappy the city must be. After all it went bankrupt, half the population left leaving just criminals and every other building is currently on fire. If that's you... Then firstly go research your comment before typing it, secondly, come to Detroit and look for yourself. Please. Even if your not looking for cool restaurants or fancy bars, at least come see how wrong you are about the city being akin to a wild west ghost town with tumble weeds rolling thru abandoned motor plants.

And for those who think that airlines are only flying people from one city to another city... again... educate yourself because that's a childish and ignorant thought process.
I travel from a city 1.5hrs north of Detroit to a city 2hrs north of London, I use the Detroit to London flight as its the closest city pair to what I actually want... otherwise I'd be flying from Flint MI to Birmingham UK if I could. Detroit serves a lot of the state for air travel and Michigan is once again becoming more affluent, the new generation of wealthy adults do not all depend on the motor industry like the generations before them.

And then you have the state itself as a destination.. Michigan is more than Detroit, its a beautiful state with more coastline than any other state except Alaska, it has everything. Hot summers, Snowy Winters and everything that comes with those... Water sports, snowboarding, skiing. It has dozens of sleepy little coastal towns, vineyards, tons of breweries...I could go on.

So to smash the city of Detroit because..."no-one wants to go there"... You are basically showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

I do have many opinions on the aviation plight of Detroit too, much as I do about BHX in England, I'm 37 and worked at both airports for major airlines, however unless you are actually present in meetings that take place between executives, airlines, handling agents etc... It will always be guesswork and speculating on our part. Even if you think you know something or something is "obvious" ...And that goes both ways for any airport and airline... Just because there may be a glaringly big reason for an airline NOT to fly to a city, like Detroit, it doesn't mean something might not change later on, and doesn't mean its ridiculous not to hope and wish. Case and point...how many people a few years ago wouldve thought WOW or Icelandair would move into airports like Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland etc... Yet they came and people used them. I know personally 4 families who historically only ever traveled to Disney in Florida from Mid Michigan or drove to Tennessee or went to visit family in San Diego..but when they heard about this new airline called WOW they thought that maybe Europe was not beyond their reach... They did a budget, planned it and had the best trips..one family went to Stratford upon E
Avon and London in England, one ended up in Bavaria in Germany and the others I think ended up in southern Europe... All because of one airline and the curiosity it created... Or as we know it as Market Stimulation! That's just a simple real life experience I have, and it doesn't mean that would happen if airlines like TK, EI, EK, etc would start services to Detroit or if DL started new routes like MAN... but equally airlines research stuff and have access to data that we don't so don't write off something happening because it doesn't make sense to you.

My rant is over, but my points stand... unless you know the facts and have a balanced opinion based on experience, don't state things you have no clue about. Don't discredit a city and its value based on its past, and don't assume things because of what you "think", or remember from something that happened a decade ago...It is degrading to the citizens and workers who are proud of the work they have put in to help revitalize a once dying and bankrupt city..

I personally would like to see TK, QR, BA come to DTW, I'm sure at some point something may change to make it happen, but for now I'm happy with what I have and have optimism for the future. Some of you should try that...



Great post and very on point. Thank you for your honesty on this matter something which many refuse to believe.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:28 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Case and point...how many people a few years ago wouldve thought WOW or Icelandair would move into airports like Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland etc... Yet they came and people used them.


Evidently people didn't use these flights as much as you like to remember. Just look at the success!

Icelandair to Cleveland = failed and cancelled
Icelandair to Kansas City = failed, being cancelled in March 2020
Icelandair to Detroit = not operated
Wow to Cleveland = failed and cancelled
Wow to Kansas City = not operated
Wow to Detroit = failed and cancelled
 
asr0dzjq
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:28 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Lol, ok, as a Detroiter I don't know what's worse to listen to... People's reactions to the horror show that is someone suggesting DTW could do more to attract other airlines, or, and in my opinion, way worse, people stereotyping Detroit as a dumpster fire of a city to go to...

And that is what I choose to focus my next few sentences on.

The issue with the internet is everyone can hide who or what they actually are. I'm positive that many of these posters dumping on Detroit or Michigan, but Detroit especially, are either childish av geeks who know nothing about the city or are stubborn bores who also have no idea because they have never visited the city.. but I'm sure are experts because they have a cousin who lived in Detroit for 6 months in 1998.

Let me put you straight. Its true.. the city isnt the sprawling global hub like NYC, it hasn't got the beaches and palm trees of Miami, it doesn't have the celebrity appeal of Los Angeles, It hasn't got the charm of Charleston or Savannah, it doesn't have the popularity of Austin or Portland.. but to think that just because it hasn't got that "brand appeal" as cities like those above do.... That's just plain stupid ignorance. Laughably stupid.

Detroit is more and more becoming a "cool" place to be, not something a keyboard crusader would ever care about but for those people who actually like to explore new places, go to places with history etc, Detroit is certainly the blossoming place to visit. New skyscrapers are being built by the Hudson group, beautiful and chic hotels are opening, the once derelict and abandoned buildings that once were thriving during the motown heydays are being repurposed and recused by big players like Ford.
The downtown, new center and university districts are full of "lofts" and apartments full of Doctors, med students, young engineers and IT folk thanks to DMC, Henry Ford, GM, Google, Quicken, Wayne State Uni etc ...these people bring with them disposable income which brings restaurants, shopping, bars.
They instagram every meal at every trendy new night spot, visitors coming downtown for games take selfies next to urban artist murals, Netflix documentaries give the once proud and wealthy city a gritty underdog feel, coming back from knockout punches like Kwame, the housing collapse and subsequent problems in the motor industry and eventual bankruptcy.

Then look at the surrounding cities in the immediate area... Royal Oak, Ferndale, Birmingham, Rochester etc... Booming towns with history, luxury hotels, highly rated restaurants,bars and entertainment, most on the same street that goes straight to the heart of downtown Detroit (Woodward). Then you have Ann Arbor which is a great little university town with a huge medical presence and an affluent demographic.

..oh but Detroit is so unsafe.. I hear its the"murder capital of America" (insert eye roll) ... yes the city has crime issues, just like any other big city in the USA, or anywhere. How many people on this forum have heard about the tragic gun violence plaguing Chicago? Yet how many people honestly avoid traveling to the city because of it...
True the "regeneration" of the city hasn't hit the poorer neighborhoods and of course crime is rampant and the poverty and homelessness is a crisis, however this again is prevalent in a lot of cities and its a crisis that will sadly always need attention throughout America and a lot of western countries in general. Yet things are actually slowly being done, taking out politics which I'm sure delays things, a lot of the neighborhoods are pooling together to clean up streets, turn open lots into urban farms, clean up grassland that otherwise would be overgrown. Some even turn derelict eye sores into art projects.

And this is where the history of Detroit stumbles the uneducated... it allows people, ignorant people who want to sound knowledgeable, to make silly remarks about how nasty and crappy the city must be. After all it went bankrupt, half the population left leaving just criminals and every other building is currently on fire. If that's you... Then firstly go research your comment before typing it, secondly, come to Detroit and look for yourself. Please. Even if your not looking for cool restaurants or fancy bars, at least come see how wrong you are about the city being akin to a wild west ghost town with tumble weeds rolling thru abandoned motor plants.

And for those who think that airlines are only flying people from one city to another city... again... educate yourself because that's a childish and ignorant thought process.
I travel from a city 1.5hrs north of Detroit to a city 2hrs north of London, I use the Detroit to London flight as its the closest city pair to what I actually want... otherwise I'd be flying from Flint MI to Birmingham UK if I could. Detroit serves a lot of the state for air travel and Michigan is once again becoming more affluent, the new generation of wealthy adults do not all depend on the motor industry like the generations before them.

And then you have the state itself as a destination.. Michigan is more than Detroit, its a beautiful state with more coastline than any other state except Alaska, it has everything. Hot summers, Snowy Winters and everything that comes with those... Water sports, snowboarding, skiing. It has dozens of sleepy little coastal towns, vineyards, tons of breweries...I could go on.

So to smash the city of Detroit because..."no-one wants to go there"... You are basically showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

I do have many opinions on the aviation plight of Detroit too, much as I do about BHX in England, I'm 37 and worked at both airports for major airlines, however unless you are actually present in meetings that take place between executives, airlines, handling agents etc... It will always be guesswork and speculating on our part. Even if you think you know something or something is "obvious" ...And that goes both ways for any airport and airline... Just because there may be a glaringly big reason for an airline NOT to fly to a city, like Detroit, it doesn't mean something might not change later on, and doesn't mean its ridiculous not to hope and wish. Case and point...how many people a few years ago wouldve thought WOW or Icelandair would move into airports like Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland etc... Yet they came and people used them. I know personally 4 families who historically only ever traveled to Disney in Florida from Mid Michigan or drove to Tennessee or went to visit family in San Diego..but when they heard about this new airline called WOW they thought that maybe Europe was not beyond their reach... They did a budget, planned it and had the best trips..one family went to Stratford upon E
Avon and London in England, one ended up in Bavaria in Germany and the others I think ended up in southern Europe... All because of one airline and the curiosity it created... Or as we know it as Market Stimulation! That's just a simple real life experience I have, and it doesn't mean that would happen if airlines like TK, EI, EK, etc would start services to Detroit or if DL started new routes like MAN... but equally airlines research stuff and have access to data that we don't so don't write off something happening because it doesn't make sense to you.

My rant is over, but my points stand... unless you know the facts and have a balanced opinion based on experience, don't state things you have no clue about. Don't discredit a city and its value based on its past, and don't assume things because of what you "think", or remember from something that happened a decade ago...It is degrading to the citizens and workers who are proud of the work they have put in to help revitalize a once dying and bankrupt city..

I personally would like to see TK, QR, BA come to DTW, I'm sure at some point something may change to make it happen, but for now I'm happy with what I have and have optimism for the future. Some of you should try that...

Thank you! Finally someone who actually understands that Detroit is becoming great again. Someone who doesn't automatically jump to conclusions being like DeTrOiT iS a WaStElAnD aNd It'S sO uNsAfE aNd BaRrEn AnD dAnGeRoUs REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
As someone who was born and raised in the Detroit area, nothing annoys me more than "Detroit is dangerous and you should always stay away." It just shows that people are ignorant a$$hole$ who just like to hate on Detroit for no reason.
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:13 pm

IPFreely wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
Case and point...how many people a few years ago wouldve thought WOW or Icelandair would move into airports like Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland etc... Yet they came and people used them.


Evidently people didn't use these flights as much as you like to remember. Just look at the success!

Icelandair to Cleveland = failed and cancelled
Icelandair to Kansas City = failed, being cancelled in March 2020
Icelandair to Detroit = not operated
Wow to Cleveland = failed and cancelled
Wow to Kansas City = not operated
Wow to Detroit = failed and cancelled


Correction WOW Air did not fail in Detroit. It was operated up until the end with the likes of YYZ, YUL, BOS, EWR AND BWI. As far as I know none of those airports are failures either and if we want to talk about real failure we can talk about SFO, MIA and DFW because those are 3 of the top examples that brought WOW Air down.. DTW-KEF was scheduled to go from 4 to 5 weekly in summer 2019.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:12 pm

IPFreely wrote:
klm617 wrote:
More than you think. Come and find out why Detroit and Michigan are such amazing places. Sure every major urban area has their problems but for some reason people like to focus on that more when the conversation is about Detroit. I love my city and I love my state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY02yEvqFio&t=15s


That’s great but I’m never going to fly LHR-DTW. If you want BA to fly the route you need to create demand where BA’s customers are — in England. Perhaps the Thames River could be lined with signs saying “Spend your holiday in Detroit” :lol: :lol: :lol:



This is what I'm talking about ... Non constructive comments that are either juvenile, false or misleading.

Firstly, yes BA is an English airline, but its customer base is anywhere it flies, not just the city of London or the country of England. People who need to travel to a city that BA flies to can connect through London if they find it convenient or cost effective. I'm sure you are aware of this basic principle tho right?

Secondly, your quote stating that Detroit should be happy with what it has is the kind of quote thrown around that has no substance. Its not like airlines do airports or cities favours out of the kindness of their heart. The airlines and routes served from Detroit are in place for a reason. Airlines don't simply feel they should fly from this airport to that airport ... They do it for legitimate reasons , whatever they may be. Again, routes are in put into place after multiple meetings and deliberations between many parties. There is a misconception that airports who appear to have routes it "shouldn't have" punch above their weight and should feel lucky. This is false and you clearly made this point when you listed the routes that failed for the Icelandic carriers.
Airlines will look at data, decide whether they should start a route, if the numbers look good, all parties are happy with the terms in place, and the route looks like it will make money then the route is commenced (this is over simplifying obviously)
If the route appears to be a good addition then it'll stay and it'll be constantly evaluated... then if it looks to be a route that is underperforming then it'll get cut or whatever the airline chooses to do. But most airlines won't just keep a route for the sake of it.... They're in the business to make money... Not to make airports feel lucky.

Again, I don't know how much you understand aviation or how airlines and airports are run but jumping on the " lets laugh at Detroit " band wagon for no real reason is not constructive.
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:32 pm

Its true, some airlines appear to throw darts at a map, or are obviously poorly run... Each of us could name an airline that has failed due to poor management..

What appears to be the biggest stumbling block a lot of newer or financially unstable airlines have? They grow to fast too quick or in some cases end up adding "prestige" routes.. mostly or commonly, airlines figuring they need to add London, New York or Paris or some place similar as its jewel in the route map, when in reality they didn't look at, or chose not to worry about, the numbers. They lose money and maybe if its a state funded airline it'll stay in place for however long, or if it's not it'll eventually be cut and the airline will have lost money ...

But this is Detroit, airlines don't add cities like Detroit for prestige. If an airline chooses to start a xxx - DTW route its because there is a legitimate business case for it. Look at BA, they studied places like Nashville, Charleston and figured that they had a solid business case to make those cities work.. the routes are still in their infancy but you can be sure that the powers that be in London are watching and evaluating the performances.
Case and point Austin. BA started AUS with no significant feed on the Texas end but feed on the London end, the city is smaller than Houston and Dallas but has sizeable industry and appeal to tourism and a nice catchment area outside of the city. Was it a risk? After all did they need another route into Texas? They have plenty of feed into DFW with AA... Sure it was a risk, but they looked at numbers, data, blah blah blah and put a 787 on the route. Small, efficient, well sized. Now a few years later... Go check what they use now. 777, and an occasional 744 I believe.
Risks sometimes work with good planning, market simulating, right pricing, and a host of other things.

Again, Detroit is no different to other cities like these. It is smaller than it once was yes, but its also now an entry point to a wide region with big industry, affluent businesses, tourists who travel abroad and tourism to Michigan. Delta operates its services from Detroit for reasons we don't conclusively know, we might have a darn good idea, but unless we're in route planning meetings and evaluation meetings we can't definitively know for sure.

If EI choose to add DTW, or QR adds DTW, you can be sure they also have made the decision over many meetings and tallied many numbers.

And for the record I like many of the opinions and ideas people have about Detroit, even Klm617 and his crazy rants... He has passion for a city he loves, I just did the same, but I feel it's high time people call out posters who troll to get reactions, or av geeks who talk nonsense and make comments that are clearly false or misleading.
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:12 am

bhxdtw wrote:
Airlines will look at data, decide whether they should start a route, if the numbers look good, all parties are happy with the terms in place, and the route looks like it will make money then the route is commenced (this is over simplifying obviously)
If the route appears to be a good addition then it'll stay and it'll be constantly evaluated... then if it looks to be a route that is underperforming then it'll get cut or whatever the airline chooses to do. But most airlines won't just keep a route for the sake of it.... They're in the business to make money... Not to make airports feel lucky.


The above is spot on, but for the sake of a constructive case that considers both strengths and weaknesses, it should be noted that objective economic data still points to hesitation around the health of the economy of Metro Detroit. That economic data is a primary input within the models of airlines who might be considering the launch of new nonstop service, especially transatlantic service.

Yes, there are many pros to possible new additions to the market, but it's not as though there are no cons and thus new launches are a no brainier and a financial certainty as is being implied by some.

I suspect that with their renewed focus on MAN, you could write a scenario where VS could eventually launch MAN-DTW, a route I'd previously doubted myself. However, at present I'm not sure they have the fleet flexibility.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:09 pm

I thought this was a very interesting stat. For those who think that DTW isn't a powerhouse of international travel look where it ranks among major airports as far as international enplanements and keep in mind the leakage to YYZ, YQG and ORD that is not included. Detroit emplanes more international passenger than either PHL and LAS and MSP and DEN don't even make the list and all have more international diversity than Detroit. In fact every airport on this list have more choice than DTW.

US airports by international traffic

JFK 33,090,297
LAX 25,703,543
MIA 20,262,416
SFO 13,838,457
EWR 13,586,434
ORD 13,317,224
ATL 12,226,580
IAH 10,350,838
FLL 8,308,311
DFW 8,281,727
IAD 7,722,414
BOS 7,087,235
MCO 6,202,505
HNL 5,322,999
SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
LAS 3,589,934
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
I thought this was a very interesting stat. For those who think that DTW isn't a powerhouse of international travel look where it ranks among major airports as far as international enplanements and keep in mind the leakage to YYZ, YQG and ORD that is not included. Detroit emplanes more international passenger than either PHL and LAS and MSP and DEN don't even make the list and all have more international diversity than Detroit. In fact every airport on this list have more choice than DTW.

US airports by international traffic

JFK 33,090,297
LAX 25,703,543
MIA 20,262,416
SFO 13,838,457
EWR 13,586,434
ORD 13,317,224
ATL 12,226,580
IAH 10,350,838
FLL 8,308,311
DFW 8,281,727
IAD 7,722,414
BOS 7,087,235
MCO 6,202,505
HNL 5,322,999
SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
LAS 3,589,934


Well... in terms of diversity, MIA, FLL, MCO, and PHL don't have flights to East Asia, HNL doesn't have flights to Europe.

And... I wouldn't necessarily consider a 16th ranked airport as an "international powerhouse". Top 5 would be worthy of the title.

DFW and IAH both receive "leakage" from each other, yet in total they had over 18 million international passengers.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:47 pm

Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I thought this was a very interesting stat. For those who think that DTW isn't a powerhouse of international travel look where it ranks among major airports as far as international enplanements and keep in mind the leakage to YYZ, YQG and ORD that is not included. Detroit emplanes more international passenger than either PHL and LAS and MSP and DEN don't even make the list and all have more international diversity than Detroit. In fact every airport on this list have more choice than DTW.

US airports by international traffic

JFK 33,090,297
LAX 25,703,543
MIA 20,262,416
SFO 13,838,457
EWR 13,586,434
ORD 13,317,224
ATL 12,226,580
IAH 10,350,838
FLL 8,308,311
DFW 8,281,727
IAD 7,722,414
BOS 7,087,235
MCO 6,202,505
HNL 5,322,999
SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
LAS 3,589,934


Well... in terms of diversity, MIA, FLL, MCO, and PHL don't have flights to East Asia, HNL doesn't have flights to Europe.

And... I wouldn't necessarily consider a 16th ranked airport as an "international powerhouse". Top 5 would be worthy of the title.

DFW and IAH both receive "leakage" from each other, yet in total they had over 18 million international passengers.



No one drives from IAH to DFW or vise verse to catch an international flight. So then you wouldn't consider SEA or MCO an international powerhouse either correct. For all the people who poopoo Detroit it holds it's own against major markets. Not only that being Detroit is not really a tourist destination one would the discern that a good portion of the traffic is premium business traffic further indicating of the untapped potential of the market. Keep in mind with SEA having maybe 3 times the international capacity as Detroit maybe more compared to Detroit but only has less than double the enplanements shows how the Detroit market is being held in check.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:00 pm

klm617 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I thought this was a very interesting stat. For those who think that DTW isn't a powerhouse of international travel look where it ranks among major airports as far as international enplanements and keep in mind the leakage to YYZ, YQG and ORD that is not included. Detroit emplanes more international passenger than either PHL and LAS and MSP and DEN don't even make the list and all have more international diversity than Detroit. In fact every airport on this list have more choice than DTW.

US airports by international traffic

JFK 33,090,297
LAX 25,703,543
MIA 20,262,416
SFO 13,838,457
EWR 13,586,434
ORD 13,317,224
ATL 12,226,580
IAH 10,350,838
FLL 8,308,311
DFW 8,281,727
IAD 7,722,414
BOS 7,087,235
MCO 6,202,505
HNL 5,322,999
SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
LAS 3,589,934


Well... in terms of diversity, MIA, FLL, MCO, and PHL don't have flights to East Asia, HNL doesn't have flights to Europe.

And... I wouldn't necessarily consider a 16th ranked airport as an "international powerhouse". Top 5 would be worthy of the title.

DFW and IAH both receive "leakage" from each other, yet in total they had over 18 million international passengers.



No one drives from IAH to DFW or vise verse to catch an international flight. So then you wouldn't consider SEA or MCO an international powerhouse either correct. For all the people who poopoo Detroit it holds it's own against major markets. Not only that being Detroit is not really a tourist destination one would the discern that a good portion of the traffic is premium business traffic further indicating of the untapped potential of the market. Keep in mind with SEA having maybe 3 times the international capacity as Detroit maybe more compared to Detroit but only has less than double the enplanements shows how the Detroit market is being held in check.


I was talking about your “leakage” from DTW to YYZ/ORD, which is about the same distance from DFW to IAH.

And, considering EVA runs a bus service from DFW to IAH, I’d say there are people who drive just for an international flight.

Sorry if I’m misunderstanding, but are you saying DTW has less than half the amount of enplanements compared to SEA? Because that’s not accurate. In 2018 SEA had 25 million while DTW had 17.5 million.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:02 pm

Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Well... in terms of diversity, MIA, FLL, MCO, and PHL don't have flights to East Asia, HNL doesn't have flights to Europe.

And... I wouldn't necessarily consider a 16th ranked airport as an "international powerhouse". Top 5 would be worthy of the title.

DFW and IAH both receive "leakage" from each other, yet in total they had over 18 million international passengers.



No one drives from IAH to DFW or vise verse to catch an international flight. So then you wouldn't consider SEA or MCO an international powerhouse either correct. For all the people who poopoo Detroit it holds it's own against major markets. Not only that being Detroit is not really a tourist destination one would the discern that a good portion of the traffic is premium business traffic further indicating of the untapped potential of the market. Keep in mind with SEA having maybe 3 times the international capacity as Detroit maybe more compared to Detroit but only has less than double the enplanements shows how the Detroit market is being held in check.


I was talking about your “leakage” from DTW to YYZ/ORD, which is about the same distance from DFW to IAH.

And, considering EVA runs a bus service from DFW to IAH, I’d say there are people who drive just for an international flight.

Sorry if I’m misunderstanding, but are you saying DTW has less than half the amount of enplanements compared to SEA? Because that’s not accurate. In 2018 SEA had 25 million while DTW had 17.5 million.


But neither DFW or IAH customers are driving to get a better fare like in Detroit. A drive to either YYZ or ORD can get you a pretty good discount in fares internationally. Is there really that much of a discount to be had by driving from DFW to IAH or v.v. so while EVA may run a bus to DFW. I am pretty sure the leakage from DTW is much greater than it is from either IAH or DFW. I was just talking about international enplanements and compared to the airports either side of DTW on this list it's level of international options and service is far less than either PHL, LAS and SEA.

SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:04 pm

Almost all the time when I talk to people about their leisure travel I am often told oh I drove to Toronto or Chicago but Detroit fares are way to high and that fact is getting no attention as far as the airport goes.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:47 am

klm617 wrote:
I thought this was a very interesting stat. For those who think that DTW isn't a powerhouse of international travel look where it ranks among major airports as far as international enplanements and keep in mind the leakage to YYZ, YQG and ORD that is not included. Detroit emplanes more international passenger than either PHL and LAS and MSP and DEN don't even make the list and all have more international diversity than Detroit. In fact every airport on this list have more choice than DTW.

US airports by international traffic

JFK 33,090,297
LAX 25,703,543
MIA 20,262,416
SFO 13,838,457
EWR 13,586,434
ORD 13,317,224
ATL 12,226,580
IAH 10,350,838
FLL 8,308,311
DFW 8,281,727
IAD 7,722,414
BOS 7,087,235
MCO 6,202,505
HNL 5,322,999
SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
LAS 3,589,934


PHL is a good comparison to the DTW situation, as both are Fortress hubs to a legacy carrier, and both have nearby airports (YYZ,ORD & NYC,WAS) that take a lot of the international LCC leakage from their respective markets.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:49 am

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I thought this was a very interesting stat. For those who think that DTW isn't a powerhouse of international travel look where it ranks among major airports as far as international enplanements and keep in mind the leakage to YYZ, YQG and ORD that is not included. Detroit emplanes more international passenger than either PHL and LAS and MSP and DEN don't even make the list and all have more international diversity than Detroit. In fact every airport on this list have more choice than DTW.

US airports by international traffic

JFK 33,090,297
LAX 25,703,543
MIA 20,262,416
SFO 13,838,457
EWR 13,586,434
ORD 13,317,224
ATL 12,226,580
IAH 10,350,838
FLL 8,308,311
DFW 8,281,727
IAD 7,722,414
BOS 7,087,235
MCO 6,202,505
HNL 5,322,999
SEA 5,188,366
DTW 3,676,969
PHL 3,675,637
LAS 3,589,934


PHL is a good comparison to the DTW situation, as both are Fortress hubs to a legacy carrier, and both have nearby airports (YYZ,ORD & NYC,WAS) that take a lot of the international LCC leakage from their respective markets.


Yes but they have way more diversity than DTW as far as choice and service

DTW has DL, LH, AF and RJ
PHL has AA, BA, EI, FI, LH and QR.

Now with Detroit having better international numbers why do we not at least have one other international option. Seems there would be a market for a TATL LCC at DTW that could surely be supported.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:47 pm

kavok wrote:
PHL is a good comparison to the DTW situation, as both are Fortress hubs to a legacy carrier, and both have nearby airports (YYZ,ORD & NYC,WAS) that take a lot of the international LCC leakage from their respective markets.


I'm not sure it's a good comparison. PHL is AA's premier TATL gateway and handles a lot of connecting traffic, in addition to o/d traffic. In fact they've added a lot of flights to small and mid-size cities in the midwest to connect to international flights in PHL. That's why AA has flights from PHL to cities like these, in addition to the normal LHR, CDG, AMS:

Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca (coming soon)
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik (coming soon)
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich

DL wants DTW passengers to get to these cities on AF/KL thru CDG/AMS, or connect thru ATL (1st choice) or JFK (2nd choice). DTW will never have Europe service comparable to PHL.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:11 pm

IPFreely wrote:
kavok wrote:
PHL is a good comparison to the DTW situation, as both are Fortress hubs to a legacy carrier, and both have nearby airports (YYZ,ORD & NYC,WAS) that take a lot of the international LCC leakage from their respective markets.


I'm not sure it's a good comparison. PHL is AA's premier TATL gateway and handles a lot of connecting traffic, in addition to o/d traffic. In fact they've added a lot of flights to small and mid-size cities in the midwest to connect to international flights in PHL. That's why AA has flights from PHL to cities like these, in addition to the normal LHR, CDG, AMS:

Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca (coming soon)
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik (coming soon)
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich

DL wants DTW passengers to get to these cities on AF/KL thru CDG/AMS, or connect thru ATL (1st choice) or JFK (2nd choice). DTW will never have Europe service comparable to PHL.



Right but keep in mind with all those destinations PHL has less O/D international passengers than DTW. If Delta is not willing to grow it's international offering out of Detroit than the WCAA needs to look elsewhere to simulate the demand out of DTW. PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice but has less O/D international enplanements and that's a big issue.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:20 pm

klm617 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
kavok wrote:
PHL is a good comparison to the DTW situation, as both are Fortress hubs to a legacy carrier, and both have nearby airports (YYZ,ORD & NYC,WAS) that take a lot of the international LCC leakage from their respective markets.


I'm not sure it's a good comparison. PHL is AA's premier TATL gateway and handles a lot of connecting traffic, in addition to o/d traffic. In fact they've added a lot of flights to small and mid-size cities in the midwest to connect to international flights in PHL. That's why AA has flights from PHL to cities like these, in addition to the normal LHR, CDG, AMS:

Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca (coming soon)
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik (coming soon)
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich

DL wants DTW passengers to get to these cities on AF/KL thru CDG/AMS, or connect thru ATL (1st choice) or JFK (2nd choice). DTW will never have Europe service comparable to PHL.



Right but keep in mind with all those destinations PHL has less O/D international passengers than DTW. If Delta is not willing to grow it's international offering out of Detroit than the WCAA needs to look elsewhere to simulate the demand out of DTW. PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice but has less O/D international enplanements and that's a big issue.


PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice


No.

International Destinations From PHL: 35
Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich
Frankfurt (LH)
Doha (QR)
+ Caribbean destinations.
+ Canada

International Destinations From DTW : 31
Beijing
Seoul
Shanghai
Nagoya
Tokyo (NRT)
Tokyo (HND)
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Munich
Frankfurt
Rome
Amman
6 cities in Mexico
Cozumel
+ Caribbean
+ Canada

PHL; 35
DTW; 31

(Might not be exact, but it's close)

Comparative destinations aren't even close to doubled.

Don't forget a good amount of international destinations from PHL are heavily seasonal.

I'd say Detroit has the better network considering it has a relatively balanced offering between Asia, Mexico, and Europe while PHL doesn't even have Asia/Mexico.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:46 pm

Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

I'm not sure it's a good comparison. PHL is AA's premier TATL gateway and handles a lot of connecting traffic, in addition to o/d traffic. In fact they've added a lot of flights to small and mid-size cities in the midwest to connect to international flights in PHL. That's why AA has flights from PHL to cities like these, in addition to the normal LHR, CDG, AMS:

Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca (coming soon)
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik (coming soon)
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich

DL wants DTW passengers to get to these cities on AF/KL thru CDG/AMS, or connect thru ATL (1st choice) or JFK (2nd choice). DTW will never have Europe service comparable to PHL.



Right but keep in mind with all those destinations PHL has less O/D international passengers than DTW. If Delta is not willing to grow it's international offering out of Detroit than the WCAA needs to look elsewhere to simulate the demand out of DTW. PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice but has less O/D international enplanements and that's a big issue.


PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice


No.

International Destinations From PHL: 35
Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich
Frankfurt (LH)
Doha (QR)
+ Caribbean destinations.
+ Canada

International Destinations From DTW : 31
Beijing
Seoul
Shanghai
Nagoya
Tokyo (NRT)
Tokyo (HND)
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Munich
Frankfurt
Rome
Amman
6 cities in Mexico
Cozumel
+ Caribbean
+ Canada

PHL; 35
DTW; 31

(Might not be exact, but it's close)

Comparative destinations aren't even close to doubled.

Don't forget a good amount of international destinations from PHL are heavily seasonal.

I'd say Detroit has the better network considering it has a relatively balanced offering between Asia, Mexico, and Europe while PHL doesn't even have Asia/Mexico.



LOL I love how you figure

DTW is 12
PHL is 19


7 more international destinations is a BIG deal in a market the size of DTW and PHL. This post is about potential not lack there of so keep your posts positive about Detroit growth as the topic of discussion or I will start reporting your posts. I'm sorry you don't like Detroit as your posts are all of a negative nature towards the market. Facts are PHL has better coverage period with less O/D Internationally.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Right but keep in mind with all those destinations PHL has less O/D international passengers than DTW. If Delta is not willing to grow it's international offering out of Detroit than the WCAA needs to look elsewhere to simulate the demand out of DTW. PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice but has less O/D international enplanements and that's a big issue.


PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice


No.

International Destinations From PHL: 35
Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich
Frankfurt (LH)
Doha (QR)
+ Caribbean destinations.
+ Canada

International Destinations From DTW : 31
Beijing
Seoul
Shanghai
Nagoya
Tokyo (NRT)
Tokyo (HND)
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Munich
Frankfurt
Rome
Amman
6 cities in Mexico
Cozumel
+ Caribbean
+ Canada

PHL; 35
DTW; 31

(Might not be exact, but it's close)

Comparative destinations aren't even close to doubled.

Don't forget a good amount of international destinations from PHL are heavily seasonal.

I'd say Detroit has the better network considering it has a relatively balanced offering between Asia, Mexico, and Europe while PHL doesn't even have Asia/Mexico.



LOL I love how you figure

DTW is 12
PHL is 19


7 more international destinations is a BIG deal in a market the size of DTW and PHL. This post is about potential not lack there of so keep your posts positive about Detroit growth as the topic of discussion or I will start reporting your posts. I'm sorry you don't like Detroit as your posts are all of a negative nature towards the market. Facts are PHL has better coverage period with less O/D Internationally.


I'm sorry?

I just listed PHL is 35 and DTW is 31. How did you get 19 and 12 respectively?

Never in a single word did I say Detroit has no potential, I was only pointing out the fact that PHL does not have double the international destinations than PHL. I'm simply pulling data and correcting your statements.

For reference, you initiated the the DTW comparison with PHL/LAS/DEN/MSP by posting the international enplanement data, which really doesn't go along with Detroit's potential.

If you feel the need to, go ahead and report my posts.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:54 pm

Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

I'm not sure it's a good comparison. PHL is AA's premier TATL gateway and handles a lot of connecting traffic, in addition to o/d traffic. In fact they've added a lot of flights to small and mid-size cities in the midwest to connect to international flights in PHL. That's why AA has flights from PHL to cities like these, in addition to the normal LHR, CDG, AMS:

Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca (coming soon)
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik (coming soon)
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich

DL wants DTW passengers to get to these cities on AF/KL thru CDG/AMS, or connect thru ATL (1st choice) or JFK (2nd choice). DTW will never have Europe service comparable to PHL.



Right but keep in mind with all those destinations PHL has less O/D international passengers than DTW. If Delta is not willing to grow it's international offering out of Detroit than the WCAA needs to look elsewhere to simulate the demand out of DTW. PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice but has less O/D international enplanements and that's a big issue.


PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice


No.

International Destinations From PHL: 35
Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich
Frankfurt (LH)
Doha (QR)
+ Caribbean destinations.
+ Canada

International Destinations From DTW : 31
Beijing
Seoul
Shanghai
Nagoya
Tokyo (NRT)
Tokyo (HND)
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Munich
Frankfurt
Rome
Amman
6 cities in Mexico
Cozumel
+ Caribbean
+ Canada

PHL; 35
DTW; 31

(Might not be exact, but it's close)

Comparative destinations aren't even close to doubled.

Don't forget a good amount of international destinations from PHL are heavily seasonal.

I'd say Detroit has the better network considering it has a relatively balanced offering between Asia, Mexico, and Europe while PHL doesn't even have Asia/Mexico.



The actual count including everything is

DTW 30
PHL 38

By double I was refereeing to TATL only and PHL far out paces DTW with diversity having 2 more airlines than DTW to provide a low coast options to their customers that DTW lacks.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:05 am

klm617 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Right but keep in mind with all those destinations PHL has less O/D international passengers than DTW. If Delta is not willing to grow it's international offering out of Detroit than the WCAA needs to look elsewhere to simulate the demand out of DTW. PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice but has less O/D international enplanements and that's a big issue.


PHL also has almost double the international offering with a lot more choice


No.

International Destinations From PHL: 35
Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich
Frankfurt (LH)
Doha (QR)
+ Caribbean destinations.
+ Canada

International Destinations From DTW : 31
Beijing
Seoul
Shanghai
Nagoya
Tokyo (NRT)
Tokyo (HND)
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Munich
Frankfurt
Rome
Amman
6 cities in Mexico
Cozumel
+ Caribbean
+ Canada

PHL; 35
DTW; 31

(Might not be exact, but it's close)

Comparative destinations aren't even close to doubled.

Don't forget a good amount of international destinations from PHL are heavily seasonal.

I'd say Detroit has the better network considering it has a relatively balanced offering between Asia, Mexico, and Europe while PHL doesn't even have Asia/Mexico.



The actual count including everything is

DTW 30
PHL 38

By double I was refereeing to TATL only and PHL far out paces DTW with diversity having 2 more airlines than DTW to provide a low coast options to their customers that DTW lacks.


You probably should've mentioned that because then PHL would have triple the TATL destinations than DTW (23 to 7).

Don't forget PHL is AA's primary TATL hub after reducing JFK. DL consolidates its TATL ops through JFK/ATL, and now I suppose it's growing BOS.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:50 am

Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:



No.

International Destinations From PHL: 35
Athens
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Casablanca
Dublin
Dubrovnik
Edinburgh
Keflavik
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Prague
Rome
Shannon
Venice
Zurich
Frankfurt (LH)
Doha (QR)
+ Caribbean destinations.
+ Canada

International Destinations From DTW : 31
Beijing
Seoul
Shanghai
Nagoya
Tokyo (NRT)
Tokyo (HND)
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Munich
Frankfurt
Rome
Amman
6 cities in Mexico
Cozumel
+ Caribbean
+ Canada

PHL; 35
DTW; 31

(Might not be exact, but it's close)

Comparative destinations aren't even close to doubled.

Don't forget a good amount of international destinations from PHL are heavily seasonal.

I'd say Detroit has the better network considering it has a relatively balanced offering between Asia, Mexico, and Europe while PHL doesn't even have Asia/Mexico.



LOL I love how you figure

DTW is 12
PHL is 19


7 more international destinations is a BIG deal in a market the size of DTW and PHL. This post is about potential not lack there of so keep your posts positive about Detroit growth as the topic of discussion or I will start reporting your posts. I'm sorry you don't like Detroit as your posts are all of a negative nature towards the market. Facts are PHL has better coverage period with less O/D Internationally.


I'm sorry?

I just listed PHL is 35 and DTW is 31. How did you get 19 and 12 respectively?

Never in a single word did I say Detroit has no potential, I was only pointing out the fact that PHL does not have double the international destinations than PHL. I'm simply pulling data and correcting your statements.

For reference, you initiated the the DTW comparison with PHL/LAS/DEN/MSP by posting the international enplanement data, which really doesn't go along with Detroit's potential.

If you feel the need to, go ahead and report my posts.



So now that we have cleared that up let's talk potential. What do you see as potential new TATL routes that should be considered for the DTW market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
FGITD
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:15 pm

I'm actually genuinely surprised that KLM doesn't fly to DTW, and seemingly has no intention of doing so in the future either. Perhaps some members more well versed in DTW can shed some light?

I understand it's a DL hub with DL flights to AMS, but all the same...if that were the reasoning, why fly to JFK or ATL?

That said, even if they did come back...sorry about the flight number and username, but KL 617 firmly belongs to Boston now!
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
So now that we have cleared that up let's talk potential. What do you see as potential new TATL routes that should be considered for the DTW market.


New DL TATL adds will go to ATL, JFK, and BOS. No other US airline has feed to start TATL out of DTW, they'll start out of their own hubs. Any European airline would have no POS (point of sale) in DTW and would be reliant on Europe-to-Detroit traffic. Therefore DTW has what it's going to get, no new TATL adds are coming.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:01 am

FGITD wrote:
I'm actually genuinely surprised that KLM doesn't fly to DTW, and seemingly has no intention of doing so in the future either. Perhaps some members more well versed in DTW can shed some light?

I understand it's a DL hub with DL flights to AMS, but all the same...if that were the reasoning, why fly to JFK or ATL?

That said, even if they did come back...sorry about the flight number and username, but KL 617 firmly belongs to Boston now!


The original flight number was 615/616 and the number used most often was 619/620 out of DTW.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:43 am

FGITD wrote:
I'm actually genuinely surprised that KLM doesn't fly to DTW, and seemingly has no intention of doing so in the future either. Perhaps some members more well versed in DTW can shed some light?

I understand it's a DL hub with DL flights to AMS, but all the same...if that were the reasoning, why fly to JFK or ATL?

That said, even if they did come back...sorry about the flight number and username, but KL 617 firmly belongs to Boston now!


With the JV between DL and KL/AF, effectively KLM does fly DTW. It is annoying to tail spotters there are no KL birds in DTW, but again with the JV, they are effectively there.

As for the reason DL/KL use all Delta metal on the 4x daily route, I have been told it basically comes down to two main factors:
1) All else equal, it better for the JV to fly Delta metal on routes from Delta hubs. For example, say half of the JV routes from AMS-USA go to Delta hubs (ATL, DTW, etc.) and the other half to non-hubs (ORD, DFW, etc). For reasons such as maintenance, metal swaps, crew basing, etc., it is just easier if the Delta wide bodies are flying from DL hubs (and this their is always a Delta hub on one side). That leaves the non-hubs for KLM birds, which obviously will always have the KL hub in AMS as either the origin or destination should their be equipment swaps.

2)The key phrase above is “all else equal”, and obviously metal size, fleet utilization, and schedule all impact that as well. Further, more than half of the JV’s TATL routes are to DL hubs, and thus KL will need to fly to some of DL hubs to maintain the contractual pilot balance as part of the JV. Hence KL flights to MSP, ATL, etc.

3) Finally, the DTW-AMS route pairs well with the TPAC routes for maximizing frame utilization. It also helps that AMS is slot controlled now, and thus to maximize capacity DL can fly its biggest plane there (A350 based at DTW) which adds further justification.
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:08 am

kavok wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I'm actually genuinely surprised that KLM doesn't fly to DTW, and seemingly has no intention of doing so in the future either. Perhaps some members more well versed in DTW can shed some light?

I understand it's a DL hub with DL flights to AMS, but all the same...if that were the reasoning, why fly to JFK or ATL?

That said, even if they did come back...sorry about the flight number and username, but KL 617 firmly belongs to Boston now!


With the JV between DL and KL/AF, effectively KLM does fly DTW. It is annoying to tail spotters there are no KL birds in DTW, but again with the JV, they are effectively there.

As for the reason DL/KL use all Delta metal on the 4x daily route, I have been told it basically comes down to two main factors:
1) All else equal, it better for the JV to fly Delta metal on routes from Delta hubs. For example, say half of the JV routes from AMS-USA go to Delta hubs (ATL, DTW, etc.) and the other half to non-hubs (ORD, DFW, etc). For reasons such as maintenance, metal swaps, crew basing, etc., it is just easier if the Delta wide bodies are flying from DL hubs (and this their is always a Delta hub on one side). That leaves the non-hubs for KLM birds, which obviously will always have the KL hub in AMS as either the origin or destination should their be equipment swaps.

2)The key phrase above is “all else equal”, and obviously metal size, fleet utilization, and schedule all impact that as well. Further, more than half of the JV’s TATL routes are to DL hubs, and thus KL will need to fly to some of DL hubs to maintain the contractual pilot balance as part of the JV. Hence KL flights to MSP, ATL, etc.

3) Finally, the DTW-AMS route pairs well with the TPAC routes for maximizing frame utilization. It also helps that AMS is slot controlled now, and thus to maximize capacity DL can fly its biggest plane there (A350 based at DTW) which adds further justification.



First of all KLM serves EVERY Delta hub except SEA. As far as aircraft utilization the A330 doesn't serve Asia out of DTW so your point is only valid for the one A350 rotation. It's not just about the KLM tail flying into Detroit it's about capturing the Holland based customer who is loyal to KLM. If anything since ATL is Delta's largest hub it would make more since to have every flight out of there on Delta metal and the JV partners serve the out posts. Delta has a negative view of it's Detroit operations for some reason and REFUSES to grow the market in fact it just canceled the second DTW-CDG flight for all of August. Delta is moving away from DTW as being a hub of connections and making it a more of an O/D market for them. This is why the airport has to go out and make some deals with new carriers or they risk the chance of becoming very irrelevant in the future. We have discussed this at length on her most people looking for reasonably priced international flights that live in southeast Michigan are not even using DTW anymore. I talk to people all the time that use YYZ or ORD to avoid the high fares at DTW and the airport is doing NOTHING to correct that. What you are being told about KLM is want they all want us to believe but I'm not buying it it's nothing more than Detroit neglect at DTW because of the lack of viable options. Delta does what it wants here and we are all expected to suck it up while you can fly from every major airport in the country to Europe for less than a $1000 round trip. The airport went on record a saying they were actively looking for a replacement for WOW Air but yet we are going into summer 2020 worse of than we were 2 years ago. Let's hope the do the right thing and make PLAY a deal they can't refuse.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:59 am

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I'm actually genuinely surprised that KLM doesn't fly to DTW, and seemingly has no intention of doing so in the future either. Perhaps some members more well versed in DTW can shed some light?

I understand it's a DL hub with DL flights to AMS, but all the same...if that were the reasoning, why fly to JFK or ATL?

That said, even if they did come back...sorry about the flight number and username, but KL 617 firmly belongs to Boston now!


With the JV between DL and KL/AF, effectively KLM does fly DTW. It is annoying to tail spotters there are no KL birds in DTW, but again with the JV, they are effectively there.

As for the reason DL/KL use all Delta metal on the 4x daily route, I have been told it basically comes down to two main factors:
1) All else equal, it better for the JV to fly Delta metal on routes from Delta hubs. For example, say half of the JV routes from AMS-USA go to Delta hubs (ATL, DTW, etc.) and the other half to non-hubs (ORD, DFW, etc). For reasons such as maintenance, metal swaps, crew basing, etc., it is just easier if the Delta wide bodies are flying from DL hubs (and this their is always a Delta hub on one side). That leaves the non-hubs for KLM birds, which obviously will always have the KL hub in AMS as either the origin or destination should their be equipment swaps.

2)The key phrase above is “all else equal”, and obviously metal size, fleet utilization, and schedule all impact that as well. Further, more than half of the JV’s TATL routes are to DL hubs, and thus KL will need to fly to some of DL hubs to maintain the contractual pilot balance as part of the JV. Hence KL flights to MSP, ATL, etc.

3) Finally, the DTW-AMS route pairs well with the TPAC routes for maximizing frame utilization. It also helps that AMS is slot controlled now, and thus to maximize capacity DL can fly its biggest plane there (A350 based at DTW) which adds further justification.



First of all KLM serves EVERY Delta hub except SEA. As far as aircraft utilization the A330 doesn't serve Asia out of DTW so your point is only valid for the one A350 rotation. It's not just about the KLM tail flying into Detroit it's about capturing the Holland based customer who is loyal to KLM. If anything since ATL is Delta's largest hub it would make more since to have every flight out of there on Delta metal and the JV partners serve the out posts. Delta has a negative view of it's Detroit operations for some reason and REFUSES to grow the market in fact it just canceled the second DTW-CDG flight for all of August. Delta is moving away from DTW as being a hub of connections and making it a more of an O/D market for them. This is why the airport has to go out and make some deals with new carriers or they risk the chance of becoming very irrelevant in the future. We have discussed this at length on her most people looking for reasonably priced international flights that live in southeast Michigan are not even using DTW anymore. I talk to people all the time that use YYZ or ORD to avoid the high fares at DTW and the airport is doing NOTHING to correct that. What you are being told about KLM is want they all want us to believe but I'm not buying it it's nothing more than Detroit neglect at DTW because of the lack of viable options. Delta does what it wants here and we are all expected to suck it up while you can fly from every major airport in the country to Europe for less than a $1000 round trip. The airport went on record a saying they were actively looking for a replacement for WOW Air but yet we are going into summer 2020 worse of than we were 2 years ago. Let's hope the do the right thing and make PLAY a deal they can't refuse.


The 3x to 2x DTW-CDG was likely just a misfire on the schedule program. I will be very surprised if next August that route is not operating 3x daily (2 on DL, 1 on AF). For what it is worth, it is still listed as 3x daily in both July and September . The odds that August 1st to August 31st would be the arbitrary dates dropped and then re-added seems odd.
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:26 pm

klm617 wrote:
Delta has a negative view of it's Detroit operations for some reason and REFUSES to grow the market in fact it just canceled the second DTW-CDG flight for all of August. Delta is moving away from DTW as being a hub of connections and making it a more of an O/D market for them.


As per usual, you are spewing nonsense devoid of factual basis.

Just as an example, for the Summer of 2020 (measured by Q3) DL will operate 5.2% more flights and 6.8% more seats in and out of DTW when compared to the Summer of 2019. They are not only growing capacity, but at a good clip as well.

Base yourself in facts before you hit the keyboard.

Finally, for someone so fired up about Delta, you sure do fly a lot of DL in and out of DTW. Maybe practice what you preach?
 
klm617
Posts: 4882
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:24 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Delta has a negative view of it's Detroit operations for some reason and REFUSES to grow the market in fact it just canceled the second DTW-CDG flight for all of August. Delta is moving away from DTW as being a hub of connections and making it a more of an O/D market for them.


As per usual, you are spewing nonsense devoid of factual basis.

Just as an example, for the Summer of 2020 (measured by Q3) DL will operate 5.2% more flights and 6.8% more seats in and out of DTW when compared to the Summer of 2019. They are not only growing capacity, but at a good clip as well.

Base yourself in facts before you hit the keyboard.

Finally, for someone so fired up about Delta, you sure do fly a lot of DL in and out of DTW. Maybe practice what you preach?



Source please So you are confirming then that Detroit is getting another international flight next summer from Delta based on your numbers. Because what I know Delta just cut 6448 seats out of the Detroit schedule for next summer through several reliable sources one of them being Delta.com
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Delta has a negative view of it's Detroit operations for some reason and REFUSES to grow the market in fact it just canceled the second DTW-CDG flight for all of August. Delta is moving away from DTW as being a hub of connections and making it a more of an O/D market for them.


As per usual, you are spewing nonsense devoid of factual basis.

Just as an example, for the Summer of 2020 (measured by Q3) DL will operate 5.2% more flights and 6.8% more seats in and out of DTW when compared to the Summer of 2019. They are not only growing capacity, but at a good clip as well.

Base yourself in facts before you hit the keyboard.

Finally, for someone so fired up about Delta, you sure do fly a lot of DL in and out of DTW. Maybe practice what you preach?



Source please So you are confirming then that Detroit is getting another international flight next summer from Delta based on your numbers. Because what I know Delta just cut 6448 seats out of the Detroit schedule for next summer through several reliable sources one of them being Delta.com


My source is OAG, straight from the published schedule as it always is. Much of the capacity growth appears to be coming from an additional SJC frequency in addition to AUS, DCA and SAN growth among several others when compared to 2019.

Your claim that DL is not growing the DTW market is, as usual, entirely false and you would do well to correct your false statement.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2674
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Potential new DTW TATL service for S20

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:36 am

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Delta has a negative view of it's Detroit operations for some reason and REFUSES to grow the market in fact it just canceled the second DTW-CDG flight for all of August. Delta is moving away from DTW as being a hub of connections and making it a more of an O/D market for them.


As per usual, you are spewing nonsense devoid of factual basis.

Just as an example, for the Summer of 2020 (measured by Q3) DL will operate 5.2% more flights and 6.8% more seats in and out of DTW when compared to the Summer of 2019. They are not only growing capacity, but at a good clip as well.

Base yourself in facts before you hit the keyboard.

Finally, for someone so fired up about Delta, you sure do fly a lot of DL in and out of DTW. Maybe practice what you preach?



Source please So you are confirming then that Detroit is getting another international flight next summer from Delta based on your numbers. Because what I know Delta just cut 6448 seats out of the Detroit schedule for next summer through several reliable sources one of them being Delta.com


What’s the actual source on cutting 6448 seats out of DTW? Unless you actually used Delta’s booking system to calculate a drop in 6,448 seats?

And... no, domestic growth does not guarantee a new international route.

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