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jet72uk
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Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:11 pm

From BBC website. Rather odd for Willie to suggest Gatwick as an opportunity when they already have near-on 70 destinations from there already.

In a call with analysts, IAG chief executive Willie Walsh said the airline group was interested in slots at Gatwick that may be up for grabs following the collapse of travel firm Thomas Cook.

"If there's an opportunity to acquire some slots through the administration process, we will be looking at that," he said. "We see Gatwick as an opportunity for us."
 
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SQ22
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:17 pm

Here is a link to the source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49836391.

Please include a link to your source the very next time, otherwise it will be deleted. Thanks.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:20 pm

Why do you see that as odd? IAG clearly see this as an opportunity to grow. IAG acquiring additional Gatters slots doesn't necessarily mean adds for BA - they might be given to VY to combat Squeezy's sizeable Gatters operation.

Although logically long haul BA adds would be more profitable... if the aircraft could be found.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:24 pm

jet72uk wrote:
From BBC website. Rather odd for Willie to suggest Gatwick as an opportunity when they already have near-on 70 destinations from there already.


I wouldn't call it odd. We should expect anti-competitive behavior from big carriers all of the time! Of course they want LGW slots.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:26 pm

Perhaps slightly off topic but, with the sudden abundance of LGW slots up for grabs, does this potentially devalue DY's that were put up as collateral? (assuming that's how they final DY deal ended u up being structured).
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:33 pm

Are they fully utilising the slots they acquired following Monarch's demise or were some of these leased out?

Whether they are or not, it's not surprising they're expressing interest in additional slots.
 
TC957
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:55 pm

BA don't have the spare aircraft to suddenly start expanding LGW. My guess is we will see more VY flights at first.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:00 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jet72uk wrote:
From BBC website. Rather odd for Willie to suggest Gatwick as an opportunity when they already have near-on 70 destinations from there already.


I wouldn't call it odd. We should expect anti-competitive behavior from big carriers all of the time! Of course they want LGW slots.

The question is to most cheaply block the slots.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:51 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Are they fully utilising the slots they acquired following Monarch's demise or were some of these leased out?

Whether they are or not, it's not surprising they're expressing interest in additional slots.


Well apparently the Monarch slots were leased out to Thomas Cook.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:39 pm

If IAG get some of the slots at LGW, how soon after are they required to use them or loose them? It is legal to just sit on them or run phantom flights.
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george77300
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:49 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
If IAG get some of the slots at LGW, how soon after are they required to use them or loose them? It is legal to just sit on them or run phantom flights.


They’ll use Vueling (or possibly LEVEL) to use them. Then can transfer as many to BA as they like when they get the aircarft/crew. I wouldn’t have thought it’s too hard to use them. If not, they’ll just lease them out for a bit. They did this after they got some of Monarchs slots they couldn’t use immidiately.
Last edited by george77300 on Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MCTSET
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:50 pm

Article saying that both virgin and wizz air are interested in LGW slots. Stiff competition for future space, will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:54 pm

What about jet blue ? An opportunity to get some for their new transatlantic op
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:16 pm

Neither Level or Veuling have any more spare aircraft than BA. Remember the IAG 737Max plan is to be BA liveried at LGW....
 
leghorn
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:46 pm

even Ryanair wants those slots but probably won't wear the cost of them as once a skinflint always a skinflint.
 
jamsco99
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:58 pm

Aren't the slots mainly afternoon departures?
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:58 pm

Virgin have shrunk LGW to the smallest operation in at least 15 years this summer, with routes canned and the A332 replacing based B744s as the focus shifts to MAN.

I suspect VS just knee jerked a “ME TOO”!!!
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:00 pm

Someone in the TC thread has posted saying Condor are interested in the Gatters slots!
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:05 pm

Would be interesting to see them use Level to compete with Norwegian's LH LGW network. Or even better, Vueling to run a low cost European network, similar to Easyjet's.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:26 pm

VCy wrote:
Would be interesting to see them use Level to compete with Norwegian's LH LGW network. Or even better, Vueling to run a low cost European network, similar to Easyjet's.

Level has a low cost European network, at both Vienna and Amsterdam they do EU flights on A321 and A320's
 
jet72uk
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:45 pm

I find the Level slot LGW-VIE rather pointless considering BA serve it during winter and EZY year-round.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:03 pm

jet72uk wrote:
I find the Level slot LGW-VIE rather pointless considering BA serve it during winter and EZY year-round.


Im sure I read the LGW-VIE route had been dropped at the end of August and Level were no longer flying it. If that is the case the only Level route serviing London is LTN-AMS, where they have taken over the route from Vueling.

I don't even understand what the Level brand really is and why it exists... What's the point of two IAG low cost airlines?

Any way back to the Thomas Cook slots at Gatwick, it doesn't seem to be only IAG rushing to buy these slots... Virgin Atlantic and Wizz Air also seem to be vying for them too!

https://www.ft.com/content/1fc44b54-df8e-11e9-b112-9624ec9edc59

Wizz Air seem very keen to build up London operations, they already have five routes from Gatwick and starting a few from Southend too!

As Luton reaches its 18 million passenger cap, Wizz Air needs to look at expanding away from the airport, if they want to continue growth in the London area, which they seem very keen on and seems to be a success. The airline has grown their Wizz UK registered airline from zero to eleven aircraft in just eighteen months. If they purchased enough Thomas Cook slots they could open a second UK base!
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:12 pm

f4f3a wrote:
What about jet blue ? An opportunity to get some for their new transatlantic op


B6 would be fools not to try & obtain as many LGW slots as possible, which won't be too many at all. While after their TATL announcement it was clear B6 was looking at capturing the business travelers with an enhanced Mint product, Heathrow is by far the most logical choice, but I do not believe leasing LHR slots are in their best interest, it would of course be best if they were granted or even bought their slots.

LGW would of course be the second best choice, going head to head against DL from BOS may be a challenge to capture the most important frequent & premium flyers that aren't B6 brand loyal.

Maybe a couple of US carriers would want to get in line for LGW slots, like HA?
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:13 pm

Pier space at LGW South Terminal during peak periods is at a premium especially for wide body stands during the morning. With the collapse of Thomas Cook I wonder if this is an opportunity for Qatar Airways to move from the North Terminal to the South Terminal to join British Airways and the other Oneworld airline's serving LGW.

Having all of the IAG and Oneworld airline's serving LGW at the same terminal makes sense as only one of those airline's as in Qatar Airways are using the North Terminal.

If IAG were to acquire the former Thomas Cook slots Qatar Airways could possibly reallocate their current slots at LGW to offer a more consistent schedule. By relocating terminals Qatar could make use of the excellent British Airways lounges in the South Terminal.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:22 pm

This would only reinforce the monopoly position that BA has on the market. I think the UK competition authorities should investigate any sales of LGW slots to IAG to protect consumers.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:35 pm

max999 wrote:
This would only reinforce the monopoly position that BA has on the market. I think the UK competition authorities should investigate any sales of LGW slots to IAG to protect consumers.


Except that it really doesn't have a monopoly, especially at LGW.

How many slots did Thomas Cook have ?

If I was B6 I would be trying to get at least 4 slot pairs then heck, lease them out until you are ready to go with your own metal.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:42 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
How many slots did Thomas Cook have ?

If I was B6 I would be trying to get at least 4 slot pairs then heck, lease them out until you are ready to go with your own metal.


I’m not that sure that you can hold slots rights at an airport and not fly there. If you hold 20 daily pairs and lease out a couple... or even a dozen!! But holding rights to NOT use them while not having any kind of operation at the airport would be bordering a couple of good business practices (if not laws)

gilesdavies wrote:
I don't even understand what the Level brand really is and why it exists... What's the point of two IAG low cost airlines?


That’s simple. simple to answer, but the scenario is not that simple. And it’s not “two IAG low cost airlines”. Vueling and Level are two brands operated by four different airlines.

Clickair (later Vueling) was created to replace all nonMAD IB routes with a lower cost, no frills operation. European expansion opening foreign bases came later

Level was just a brand created overnight to prevent Norwegian doing at BCN the same it achieved at LGW. To operate from BCN some (2, more later) Iberia planes were painted cyan and green and began flying with a densified cabin with no J product (just like Norwegian)

Former project Lauren / BA openskies was not performing spectacularly well and it had trouble finding its way. Their operation was LEVELized and that’s it.

Anisec in Vienna was purchased and started trading as LEVEL. Future plan is to replace all EU Vueling bases with Anisec (as Ryanair is doing with Malta air) but it will take its time.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:39 am

I see B6 indeed bidding for some of the slots as Gatwick may be their best way into London.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:46 am

jetwet1 wrote:
How many slots did Thomas Cook have ?

8 based 321’s doing four sectors a day and 1 based 332 for longhaul. I would say the number of slots would be something in the region of 17 daily slot pairs.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:42 am

f4f3a wrote:
What about jet blue ? An opportunity to get some for their new transatlantic op

This suggestion has been made before, even when Thomas Cook was still operating.

Is JetBlue in a position to operate the slots this winter? Clearly not, as they don't have ETOPS approval from the FAA yet, and the only place they could legally fly to on their own metal is the USA.
Is there another airline that would be willing to lease the slots from JetBlue on a very short term basis, knowing that they will lose them within 2 years?
Could JetBlue afford to pay a European airline to operate flights to anywhere using these slots, so they don't fail the "use on 80% of possible flying dates" rule and have them confiscated?
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:19 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
How many slots did Thomas Cook have ?

8 based 321’s doing four sectors a day and 1 based 332 for longhaul. I would say the number of slots would be something in the region of 17 daily slot pairs.


It was 16 daily slot pairs during the IATA summer season and 6 daily slot pairs during the IATA winter season. The majority of those slots are after midday and in particular in the middle of the afternoon. That figure includes a couple of morning slots for long haul from the likes of Cancun and Orlando, etc. Those particular slots may very well suit JetBlue although I believe there are only two daily slot pairs for early arrivals.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:57 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
How many slots did Thomas Cook have ?

8 based 321’s doing four sectors a day and 1 based 332 for longhaul. I would say the number of slots would be something in the region of 17 daily slot pairs.


BA growing LGW by 8x A321’s wouldn’t be that extreme for growth, especially if helps them keep an strong hold against U2.

With Thomas Cook now gone, next Summer there will still be demand for people needing flights to go on holidays and someone will need to pick up that slack.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:24 pm

by738 wrote:
Neither Level or Veuling have any more spare aircraft than BA. Remember the IAG 737Max plan is to be BA liveried at LGW....


When IAG bought the Monarch slots at LGW, BA used two Titan A320s, a Titan 737-400 and a Privatair 737-700 for additional services to use the slots.
With the ongoing 737MAX and 787 engine issues, at this time finding additional capacity like that might not be easy.
It may be possible for BA to slow the rate of A319 retirements.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:33 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
With the ongoing 737MAX and 787 engine issues, at this time finding additional capacity like that might not be easy.
It may be possible for BA to slow the rate of A319 retirements.


Or make some “sister airline” use those slots if they are suitable. Vueling comes to mind from any of its bases. Or IB express for a 3rd MAD daily in the afternoon complementing morning and evening flights. Or the uptenth DUB rotation on Aer Lingus. Or BA itself doing less LGW-Spain flying freeing enough frames to use up those slots while Iberia Express/Vueling/IB regional AirNostrum takes over the route. IAG has flexibility, ample flexibility in scheduling to tweak their LGW slots portfolio to accept any new slot pair.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:43 pm

max999 wrote:
This would only reinforce the monopoly position that BA has on the market. I think the UK competition authorities should investigate any sales of LGW slots to IAG to protect consumers.


A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:56 pm

Duplicate post deleted
Last edited by BealineV953 on Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BealineV953
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:00 pm

Aisak wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
How many slots did Thomas Cook have ?

If I was B6 I would be trying to get at least 4 slot pairs then heck, lease them out until you are ready to go with your own metal.


I’m not that sure that you can hold slots rights at an airport and not fly there. If you hold 20 daily pairs and lease out a couple... or even a dozen!! But holding rights to NOT use them while not having any kind of operation at the airport would be bordering a couple of good business practices (if not laws)

gilesdavies wrote:
I don't even understand what the Level brand really is and why it exists... What's the point of two IAG low cost airlines?


That’s simple to answer, but the scenario is not that simple. And it’s not “two IAG low cost airlines”. Vueling and Level are two brands operated by four different airlines.

Clickair (later Vueling) was created to replace all nonMAD IB routes with a lower cost, no frills operation. European expansion opening foreign bases came later

Level was just a brand created overnight to prevent Norwegian doing at BCN the same it achieved at LGW. To operate from BCN some (2, more later) Iberia planes were painted cyan and green and began flying with a densified cabin with no J product (just like Norwegian)

Former project Lauren / BA openskies was not performing spectacularly well and it had trouble finding its way. Their operation was LEVELized and that’s it.

Anisec in Vienna was purchased and started trading as LEVEL. Future plan is to replace all EU Vueling bases with Anisec (as Ryanair is doing with Malta air) but it will take its time.


Vueling began operations in 2004. Iberia owned around 45% of the airline.
Clickair was formed in 2006.
In 2009 Vueling and Clickair merged, taking the Vueling name.
In 2013 IAG acquired 44% of Vueling. Together with the Iberia share, this gave IAG control of the company.

Level might have been 'Vueling'. A Catalonian colleague told me that in Spain there can be at least two pronunciations of 'Vueling'. If I remember rightly, one sounds more like 'Bueling'. I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who speaks Spanish.
In some markets 'V' is pronounced as 'W'.
'Vueling' as a name was market tested in a number of non-Spanish markets and didn't go well. Hence 'Level', a word that can be pronounced in most markets.

Being picky, I believe that all four Level (Spain) A330s were delivered new to Level. At least the first two were diverted from an Iberia order.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:46 pm

BealineV953 wrote:

Vueling began operations in 2004. Iberian owned around 45% of the airline.
Clickair was formed in 2006.
In 2009 Vueling and Clickair merged, taking the Vueling name.
In 2013 IAG acquired 44% of Vueling. Together with the Iberia share, this gave IAG control of the company.
[...]
Being picky, I believe that all four Level (Spain) A330s were delivered new to Level. At least the first two were diverted from an Iberia order.

I just said the first two frames were IB’s and painted with the level brand ;). And the following ones still follow the same rule...


And well... being picky :duck: ;)

“Vueling began operations in 2004. Iberian owned around 45% of the airline. “
IB didn’t held any kind of shares or management in Vueling when it was launched. Some time after launching, the company went public but neither IB nor other clickair owners are known to date to have held any Vueling share prior to the merger.

“Clickair was formed in 2006.”
IB held 20% of economic rights of clickair along with four other inverstors holding each 20%. But IB did hold 80% of voting rights when the other four only held 5% each. That gave IB the practical control of the airline

“In 2009 Vueling and Clickair merged, taking the Vueling name.”
When they merged, IB was supposed to hold 44% of the shares, with equal economic and voting rights. The CNMV (the Spanish equivalent to the US FEC) had to issue an exemption, as the law dictates that any shareholder adquiring more than 30% of a listed company must launch a full take over bid. IB was exempt from launching a full take over bid and was allowed to continue holding 44% which effectively, meant control over the airline.

“In 2013 IAG acquired 44% of Vueling. Together with the Iberia share, this gave IAG control of the company.”
It’s not like they didn’t... IB holding 44% of a listed company effectively meant control over the company. The second biggest shareholder was quite far from IB and, as usually happens with every other listed company, the number of “owners” with little voting rights is quite high.
 
MCTSET
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:07 pm

vhtje wrote:
max999 wrote:
This would only reinforce the monopoly position that BA has on the market. I think the UK competition authorities should investigate any sales of LGW slots to IAG to protect consumers.


A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.


Would that mean U2 could be unable to acquire anymore LGW slots, due to their position?
 
max999
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:43 pm

vhtje wrote:
max999 wrote:
This would only reinforce the monopoly position that BA has on the market. I think the UK competition authorities should investigate any sales of LGW slots to IAG to protect consumers.


A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.


Sorry that you misinterpreted what I wrote. I wrote BA has a monopoly on the market, which I meant by all of London. I did not write monopoly over LGW.

To further clarify, BA has a de facto monopoly over the London market.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:13 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
by738 wrote:
Neither Level or Veuling have any more spare aircraft than BA. Remember the IAG 737Max plan is to be BA liveried at LGW....


When IAG bought the Monarch slots at LGW, BA used two Titan A320s, a Titan 737-400 and a Privatair 737-700 for additional services to use the slots.
With the ongoing 737MAX and 787 engine issues, at this time finding additional capacity like that might not be easy.
It may be possible for BA to slow the rate of A319 retirements.


the good news is a lot of nb capacity just hit the market.
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vhtje
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:57 pm

MCTSET wrote:
vhtje wrote:

A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.


Would that mean U2 could be unable to acquire anymore LGW slots, due to their position?


That would be for the regulator to decide. I wouldn’t rule U2 out of the race though, stranger decisions towards incumbents have been made in the past. Awarding additional slots to U2 may depend, for example, upon what concessions to competition U2 would be prepared to make.
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vhtje
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:11 pm

max999 wrote:
vhtje wrote:
max999 wrote:
This would only reinforce the monopoly position that BA has on the market. I think the UK competition authorities should investigate any sales of LGW slots to IAG to protect consumers.


A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.


Sorry that you misinterpreted what I wrote. I wrote BA has a monopoly on the market, which I meant by all of London. I did not write monopoly over LGW.

To further clarify, BA has a de facto monopoly over the London market.


Fair enough. But on the other hand, I understand from posters in this forum IAG’s share of the LON slots, as a percentage of the total slots, is smaller in comparison than their major European competitors’ domination of their respective markets, e.g LH in Frankfurt and AF in Paris. I’ll see if I can find evidence to support this.
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:21 pm

vhtje wrote:
max999 wrote:
vhtje wrote:

A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.


Sorry that you misinterpreted what I wrote. I wrote BA has a monopoly on the market, which I meant by all of London. I did not write monopoly over LGW.

To further clarify, BA has a de facto monopoly over the London market.


Fair enough. But on the other hand, I understand from posters in this forum IAG’s share of the LON slots, as a percentage of the total slots, is smaller in comparison than their major European competitors’ domination of their respective markets, e.g LH in Frankfurt and AF in Paris. I’ll see if I can find evidence to support this.


And back to Easyjet... around 50% of slots at LGW, quite a sizable operation at their HQ LTN... some flights at STN and a couple more at SEN

But BA is said to be running a monopoly on LON
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:58 pm

BA don't even have a majority of slots at LHR and LGW combined, let alone LON as a whole. London is one of the most competitive markets in the world.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:16 am

Sounds like a cheap way for B6 to fly to London to me... unfortunately, they're not supposed to start London until 2021, so let's just hope that the surplus lasts.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
Andy33
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:10 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Sounds like a cheap way for B6 to fly to London to me... unfortunately, they're not supposed to start London until 2021, so let's just hope that the surplus lasts.


But it can't. If slots are not flown for at least 80% of the possible days in the IATA season for which they are valid, then the slot is liable to be confiscated by the slot coordinator and made available to new applicants, with preference given to airlines new to the airport concerned. So anyone who bought these slots and is not able to use them until 2021 would lose the money they paid for them, and still have no slots. The only way round it would be to find another airline which wanted to lease slots at these times for a period of around a year and a half only, or to wet lease planes from an airline that has the necessary traffic rights for wherever you decide to fly them to, just to keep the slots open.

Finally, the slots are timed both for takeoff and landing. They're useless if they don't match the times you want to fly at. There's not a huge window of the day in which scheduled transatlantic flights work - outside that window either the arrival or departure times are unacceptable to O&D passengers, and/or they fail to connect with feeder flights.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:50 am

BealineV953 wrote:
by738 wrote:
Neither Level or Veuling have any more spare aircraft than BA. Remember the IAG 737Max plan is to be BA liveried at LGW....


When IAG bought the Monarch slots at LGW, BA used two Titan A320s, a Titan 737-400 and a Privatair 737-700 for additional services to use the slots.
With the ongoing 737MAX and 787 engine issues, at this time finding additional capacity like that might not be easy.
It may be possible for BA to slow the rate of A319 retirements.


BA is due to take delivery of 15 widebodies in 2020 (5 A350s, 6 B787-10s and 4 77Ws). 3 77As and 5 747s are leaving. That leaves a net increase of 7. Plus a net increase of 1 in narrowbodies as 1 more A320neo is being delivered compared to A319s being retired.

Overall, as more A350s and B787-10s, even the extra 77W come along, that allows more 777s to be moved to LGW to take advantage of ex-Monarch slots and any Thomas Cook slots that become available.

Slot decisions for summer 2020 are being finalised soon, so expect to hear some route announcements around November time.
 
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:56 pm

Aisak wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
With the ongoing 737MAX and 787 engine issues, at this time finding additional capacity like that might not be easy.
It may be possible for BA to slow the rate of A319 retirements.


Or make some “sister airline” use those slots if they are suitable. Vueling comes to mind from any of its bases. Or IB express for a 3rd MAD daily in the afternoon complementing morning and evening flights. Or the uptenth DUB rotation on Aer Lingus. Or BA itself doing less LGW-Spain flying freeing enough frames to use up those slots while Iberia Express/Vueling/IB regional AirNostrum takes over the route. IAG has flexibility, ample flexibility in scheduling to tweak their LGW slots portfolio to accept any new slot pair.


Yes, if IAG is successful in bidding for the LGW slots, it has the ability to use the slots across the group.
If you mean that Aer Lingus, IB Express, Vueling, Level or Air Nostrum could use the slots only for W19/20, then it could be that they are not excited by this being a short term opportunity. In any case, we're not far off the start of the Winter season and they may not have the capacity.
IAG makes investment decisions very carefully, wanting to see clear financial and strategic benefits. I'm not convinced that your suggestions would deliver the return that IAG looks for.
BA has said that the LGW longhaul fleet will grow. The slots for this could come from reduced BA shorthaul flying. However, the ex-Thomas Cook LGW slots represent an opportunity, at a price, to achieve that longhaul growth without reducing the shorthaul programme.
See the informative post by BA777FO for more on this.
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BealineV953
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Re: Thomas Cook Gatwick Slots - Willie Walsh

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:30 pm

vhtje wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
vhtje wrote:

A post wholly unsupported by the facts. IAG only have 20% of LGW slots.

U2 have the most, at 40% - roughly double what IAG has.


Would that mean U2 could be unable to acquire anymore LGW slots, due to their position?


That would be for the regulator to decide. I wouldn’t rule U2 out of the race though, stranger decisions towards incumbents have been made in the past. Awarding additional slots to U2 may depend, for example, upon what concessions to competition U2 would be prepared to make.


First, the legal background:

In the UK currently two sets of competition rules apply in parallel.

Chapters I and II of the Competition Act 1998 and the Enterprise Act 2002 specifically prohibit anti-competitive behaviour which may affect trade within the UK.

Where the effect of anti-competitive behaviour extends beyond the UK to other EU Member States, it is prohibited by Articles 101 and 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).

The UK government has said it will make no fundamental changes to its competition law regime after the UK leaves the EU.

UK and EU competition law prohibit two main types of anti-competitive activity, one of which is ‘Abuse of a dominant market position’ (under the Chapter II / Article 102 prohibitions). This prohibits businesses with significant market power unfairly exploiting their strong market positions.

To be in a position of dominance, a business must have the ability to act independently of its customers, competitors and consumers. Establishing if a company is dominant requires an assessment of a number of elements but, as a general rule, if a business has a 50% market share there is a presumption that it is dominant. However, dominance has been found to exist where market share is as low as 40%.

Under Chapter II there is no requirement that a dominant position must be held in a substantial part of the UK, meaning that, in theory at least, dominance could be considered to exist in a fairly small area of the UK.

Article 102 requires dominance in a substantial part of the European Union.

Second, the fun starts:

Take an entirely hypothetical example:
A London based airline and a potential US based partner wanting to enter into an agreement covering travel between the UK and the USA might have 50% of the London-USA market.
The London based airline and potential US based partner argue that if Stansted is considered to be ‘London’, they have only 49.5% of the market.
They further argue that as the agreement they desire covers all of the UK to all of the USA (they will feed passengers from and to MAN, GLA, EDI etc. to connect at LON, and will connect passengers at gateways in the USA to and from secondary cities) they have only 39.5% of the market, and hey presto this share falls under the legal definition of ‘dominance’, so what’s the problem?
“Not so fast” say the Lawyers for the potential partner’s competitors. You carry many passengers from and to points beyond the UK, like the Middle East, to and from the USA and this is very irritating because the airline we represent doesn’t fly there.
So, the Heathrow based carrier is forced to make concessions and gives up slots at LHR to allow competitors into the market.
In time the competitors find that competing on the LHR-MIA route is not as easy as they thought it would be and, after trashing the fares, pull off. They quietly hand back the slots.
And everyone lived happily ever after, especially the Lawyers who make a lot of money out of this.

I imagine that easyJet, if they bid for the ex-TC slots at LGW, will argue that the market should be considered to be not Gatwick but 'London', taking account of all of London's airports (LHR, LGW, LCY, STN and SEN).
As some a.netters say, time to get out the popcorn.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’

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