Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
BA777FO
Posts: 580
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:06 pm

wenders825 wrote:
this site is in hysteria. AA will be fine. Iberia will be fine. i don't see BA and QF staying in SCL though


Can't speak for QF but BA doesn't really rely on LATAM for many connections at SCL. Whether BA stands to lose much due to reciprocal frequent flier benefits, time will tell, but the route has been performing well, even benefitting from increases to frequencies lately.

Those saying OW is finished in South America is hysteria indeed. IB still has a dominant share of SA->Europe traffic and AA will continue to be a dominant player.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:08 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I can believe the hysteria I am reading on this site. AA and IB are still by far the top carriers to/from Latin America and will still be after the end of the LATAM relationship. OW will still be a major force in Latin America just because of that.
For real the hyperbole is just silly. LATAM is going to get squeezed now with full force flying to North America and Europe by AA and IB. LATAM might have cut off its nose to spite its face.


Agree the hyperbole is over the top. But it is an important development. And Delta has "saved" airlines before. Its doesn't appear to bother them that Virgin Atlantic operates at a loss.....nor the refinery. ...the bottom line is a net gain to their network as a whole. Perhaps this wll be similar?
Last edited by SteelChair on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DeSpringbokke
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:27 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:10 pm

So what is Delta going to do with these additional 14 A350s? I doubt they’ll be doing any South American flying unless launch LAX-Deep South America, which I expect they’ll at least be flying LAX-GRU. A mix of the A333/A339s will likely comprise most of Delta’s Deep South America flights after this is approved. The A350s take over the West Coast-Asia flying that Delta initially intended? Also, Delta will take four A359s from LATAM starting at the end of next year. LATAM had ten A35Js on order. No mention by Bastian of whether Delta will convert the A35J order into the A359s. Noted that Airbus really needs to build more A35Js. What happens to the deferred 10 A359s? If I remember correctly, these aircraft can be converted to other orders. Perhaps Delta converts them into additional A339s? Mentioned earlier, how will the additional 14 A350s affect Delta’s aircraft retirement schedule? They are too big to be 763 replacements unless Delta continues to do some serious upgauging. This assumes the 777 fleet isn’t going anywhere before 2025.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:15 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Statement from AA:

"Further, this change in partnership is not expected to have a significant financial impact to American, as the current relationship provided less than $20 million of incremental revenue to American, and the proposed joint business without Chile would have provided limited upside.


For $20 million in incremental revenue, it made no sense for AA to outbid Delta.

The Brazilian economy is highly volatile. LATAM is struggling financially. It's a desperate move to trade Miami POS (with AA) for $1.9 B and planes they can no longer afford.

If LATAM were as strategically important as JAL, AA might have raised the money. But without the possibility of a full JV there was no upside to the relationship. AA is better off spending $2.3B (with the transition costs) on facilities, planes, or even a strategic acquisition of their own.

Indeed, it's a perfect opportunity for AA and UA to make moves of their own. One or the other might have already decided that it is wiser to spend $2.3B+ on buying JetBlue or Alaska than buying a stake in LATAM. Only AA is in the best regulatory position to purchase JetBlue. Come on AA. The next move is yours.


I have to second this.
Name me a carrier that is making consistent profits in Latin America. None.
LATAM hasn't been doing too bad but I hope that DL did their due diligence thoroughly. Accounting can get creative in this part of the world.
1.9 billion plus aircraft orders is not a small investment.
The good thing for DL is that Avianca seems to be falling apart, so there are market opportunities that will offer short-term relief.
The upside is also that having an omni-present partner in South America opens a lot of doors for themselves and their partners.
However, LATAM is a big airline, when things start going down the drain, it's not easy to try to turn things around.

For LATAM the deal is great. They can rid themselves of excess aircraft and get a probably needed capital increase.

I wonder if several of the A350's will be for VS. A lot of space opening up in LGW and DL/VS don' t have the aircraft to take advantage of it.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4851
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:16 pm

usflyer msp wrote:

AA is not dependent upon LATAM for anything in Latin America. AA has had its own sales and marketing teams and its own FF base and corporate contracts in the region going back to the Braniff days. IMHO, the only route that is dependent upon LATAM feed is DFW-SCL.


LATAM codeshares provide traffic on AA flights and things like frequent flyer benefits certainly push locals towards AA versus other U.S. airlines.

Also off the top of my head AA has closed lounges in SCL, BOG, LIM in favor of partner LATAM while LATAM also provides ground services to AA.

So yes, AA today is dependent on LATAM for somethings and must disentangle themselves.

Some current AA flying might not make sense without LATAM partnership.
mercure f-wtcc
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:19 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
They are too big to be 763 replacements unless Delta continues to do some serious upgauging. This assumes the 777 fleet isn’t going anywhere before 2025.


This is the same fallacy that is so common on this forum. There often are not direct 1-for-1 replacements. DL may retire 763s, replace those routes with 752s, 763s, and A332s. Those routes get replaced with an A333 or maybe the A359. Or, DL adjusts flight schedules. Add in some possible expansion.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14572
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:21 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

What cities do you think LATAM will serve from MIA that DL won't serve from ATL? It's hard to see the case for something like CVG-MIA when that overflies ATL and really won't open up much in the way of new connecting flows. As I said way upthread, I think this makes MIA service from Florida and other points south of ATL more attractive. Those cities have much different geography than CVG.


LATAM already has an extensive network from Miami to secondary Brazil. Not that it needs feed, though, because it’s largely an O&D operation.

I suspect we will see LATAM Ecuador and LATAM Columbia return to Miami with the AA partnership gone.


DL CVG-MIA shouldn't be hard to believe, they already fly CVG-FLL daily

DL isn't going to buy LATAM, and not connect into its huge operation in MIA, that would be wasteful


So they trade some domestic (predominantly) O&D traffic at FLL for a handful of passengers to secondary Latin America at MIA? I'm not sure why that trade so obiviously makes sense. Maybe it does, but I'm not yet convinced.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:21 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
LATAM "struggling to stay afloat" ???? Are you serious ???? If LATAM is "struggling to stay afloat", how do you qualify AZ, AR, IB ??? With your standards/logic , even CX could be "struggling to stay afloat" after weeks of turmoil in Hong Kong.
It seems pretty obvious, you don't have a clue about long term operation of a big airline, and much less about revenue/profits/market expansion forecasts for LA, which is by the way a truly continental operator, something no other airline could say seriously in the Latin American market.


Spoken in another way, selling a 20% stake to raise cash, shrinking your fleet, and releasing yourself from future aircraft purchases isn't the sign of a strong carrier. It sounds like one in need of help. Maybe struggling to stay afloat is overstating their position, but it's certainly more accurate than saying LA is doing well.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3860
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:21 pm

LAXintl wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Does a route like LAX-GRU stand a chance for AA without LATAM marketing and FF base on Brazil end? Its has to be marginal already being reduced to 4x weekly. Same with LAX-EZE operated 3x weekly.


Yes likely these are marginal routes without the benefit of having a partner on the other end be it for connections, sales, or FF base and their affinity.

While AA is downplaying this, LATAM combined on daily basis provided feed to AA in the hundreds across the continent and into the MIA hub which will be costly to replace be it with other smaller partners or organically with their own flying.

AA also needs to make fast decision on staffing and airport facilities in the region as over the years it has farmed out handling to LATAM and closed down AAdmiral Clubs in favor of partner LATAM facilities in several cities.


Again, more hyperbole. AA serves every route LATAM flies from MIA except for BEL, SSA and REC. Those three cities are served 5x weekly combined, I really doubt AA is concerned about the 100 pax/week that connected to AA off those flights.

AA is not ground handled by LATAM anywhere and AA only uses the LATAM lounge in BOG and SCL and can easily make other arrangements

AA will be fine...
Last edited by usflyer msp on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:22 pm

JJ777 wrote:
Well I was just fooling around at LA's website checking some tickets from GRU to numerous destinations in the USA and in Canada and many AA flights have pretty much disappeared from there already. Perhaps we'll have a fairly quick divorce after all.


Must have been Delta's stipulation. It's a hefty 1.9+ billion Delta will have to fork over. Any distribution line giving revenue to American must unequivocally end as Lantam must show good faith with Delta soon to be on board, literally!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:23 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
So what is Delta going to do with these additional 14 A350s? I doubt they’ll be doing any South American flying unless launch LAX-Deep South America, which I expect they’ll at least be flying LAX-GRU. A mix of the A333/A339s will likely comprise most of Delta’s Deep South America flights after this is approved. The A350s take over the West Coast-Asia flying that Delta initially intended? Also, Delta will take four A359s from LATAM starting at the end of next year. LATAM had ten A35Js on order. No mention by Bastian of whether Delta will convert the A35J order into the A359s. Noted that Airbus really needs to build more A35Js. What happens to the deferred 10 A359s? If I remember correctly, these aircraft can be converted to other orders. Perhaps Delta converts them into additional A339s? Mentioned earlier, how will the additional 14 A350s affect Delta’s aircraft retirement schedule? They are too big to be 763 replacements unless Delta continues to do some serious upgauging. This assumes the 777 fleet isn’t going anywhere before 2025.


If I heard it right, DL gets two of the four in-service A350s in 2020, and two more by 2025. I haven't seen or heard remarks whether DL will be getting 359s or 35Js in acquiring LATAM's obligation. The ten 359s that DL deferred to 2025-26 do, indeed, have conversion rights to 339s. We can't expect the next 7 long-haul route adds to use 14 A350s -- there will be lots of swapping among types.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26253
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:28 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

LATAM already has an extensive network from Miami to secondary Brazil. Not that it needs feed, though, because it’s largely an O&D operation.

I suspect we will see LATAM Ecuador and LATAM Columbia return to Miami with the AA partnership gone.


DL CVG-MIA shouldn't be hard to believe, they already fly CVG-FLL daily

DL isn't going to buy LATAM, and not connect into its huge operation in MIA, that would be wasteful


So they trade some domestic (predominantly) O&D traffic at FLL for a handful of passengers to secondary Latin America at MIA? I'm not sure why that trade so obiviously makes sense. Maybe it does, but I'm not yet convinced.


Nothing is being traded.

I imagine the first thing is we will see DL metal on MIA-GRU.

It's an obvious next step for them.
a.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:28 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
LATAM "struggling to stay afloat" ???? Are you serious ???? If LATAM is "struggling to stay afloat", how do you qualify AZ, AR, IB ??? With your standards/logic , even CX could be "struggling to stay afloat" after weeks of turmoil in Hong Kong.
It seems pretty obvious, you don't have a clue about long term operation of a big airline, and much less about revenue/profits/market expansion forecasts for LA, which is by the way a truly continental operator, something no other airline could say seriously in the Latin American market.


Spoken in another way, selling a 20% stake to raise cash, shrinking your fleet, and releasing yourself from future aircraft purchases isn't the sign of a strong carrier. It sounds like one in need of help. Maybe struggling to stay afloat is overstating their position, but it's certainly more accurate than saying LA is doing well.


Wasn't Virgin Atlantic struggling before Delta saved them? Seems like a similar situation...Delta gets instant market penetration/mass, LATAM gets help. AeroMexico was similarly weak. Air France also. The playbook seems to be: Its better to help a weak carrier and cooperate with them on their home turf than to compete with a strong carrier on their home turf.
Last edited by SteelChair on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
turk223
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:16 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:29 pm

I wonder how this may affect 4C (LATAM Colombia)... Not sure how much 4C depends on AA's flight into Colombia, but I would have to imagine there is some feed at BOG at least. AA has quite a bigger presence in Colombia than DL does...
 
DeSpringbokke
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:27 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:36 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
They are too big to be 763 replacements unless Delta continues to do some serious upgauging. This assumes the 777 fleet isn’t going anywhere before 2025.


This is the same fallacy that is so common on this forum. There often are not direct 1-for-1 replacements. DL may retire 763s, replace those routes with 752s, 763s, and A332s. Those routes get replaced with an A333 or maybe the A359. Or, DL adjusts flight schedules. Add in some possible expansion.


I know these are not one for one replacements, unlike others. Delta has done very little of that with their replacement strategy with the exception of their last 747s with A350s. But all of this capacity they are adding, how much will be fleet expansion and how much will it be replacement. What will this do to the 763 retirement schedule? With the updated order book, Delta has enough capacity coming in between now and 2025 not only to park the entire 763 fleet of 56 aircraft but the 8 777s as well. Is Delta finally going to start expanding intercontinentally in the same manner UA has done in the past years?
 
LatinAirliner
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:37 pm

turk223 wrote:
I wonder how this may affect 4C (LATAM Colombia)... Not sure how much 4C depends on AA's flight into Colombia, but I would have to imagine there is some feed at BOG at least. AA has quite a bigger presence in Colombia than DL does...


Several Colombian destinations which are not served by AA and were feeded by Latam: MTR, CUC, BGA, SMR, ADZ, LET, VUP.
The other way around too, Latam announced some weeks ago they will cancel their BOG-MIA flight, because everything in the route was given to AA, now for sure they will not cancel that route, and probably they will try to bring one of their widebodies to compete there.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:38 pm

It was asked above - maybe with a bit too much subtlety - where can AA take you from MIA (in the U.S.) that Delta can't take you from ATL? Nowhere, really. It may not have the frequencies from ATL into AA hubs that you can get from MIA, but ATL's destination set is very comprehensive with lots of frequencies into all major U.S. destinations. Sure, there would be backtracking to Florida end destinations and that's neither cost-efficient nor customer friendly. If LATAM/DL has comprehensive S America - MIA/MCO they're going to capture much of the Florida traffic, however.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20290
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:40 pm

SteelChair wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
LATAM "struggling to stay afloat" ???? Are you serious ???? If LATAM is "struggling to stay afloat", how do you qualify AZ, AR, IB ??? With your standards/logic , even CX could be "struggling to stay afloat" after weeks of turmoil in Hong Kong.
It seems pretty obvious, you don't have a clue about long term operation of a big airline, and much less about revenue/profits/market expansion forecasts for LA, which is by the way a truly continental operator, something no other airline could say seriously in the Latin American market.


Spoken in another way, selling a 20% stake to raise cash, shrinking your fleet, and releasing yourself from future aircraft purchases isn't the sign of a strong carrier. It sounds like one in need of help. Maybe struggling to stay afloat is overstating their position, but it's certainly more accurate than saying LA is doing well.


Wasn't Virgin Atlantic struggling before Delta saved them? Seems like a similar situation...Delta gets instant market penetration/mass, LATAM gets help. AeroMexico was similarly weak. Air France also. The playbook seems to be: Its better to help a weak carrier and cooperate with them on their home turf than to compete with a strong carrier on their home turf.

Delta seems to negotiate expectations before partnering. DL does seem to, but only with the JVs, manage up the profit for both.

I do not doubt both LATAM and DL will nicely profit from this proposed JV.

14 extra A359 is just a nice bonus.

What amazes me is how DL isn't blinking at borrowing/spending $2.3 billion. That shows their cash position. DL could borrow money market and be even in 15 months. That is cash flow.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1855
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:52 pm

SteelChair wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
LATAM "struggling to stay afloat" ???? Are you serious ???? If LATAM is "struggling to stay afloat", how do you qualify AZ, AR, IB ??? With your standards/logic , even CX could be "struggling to stay afloat" after weeks of turmoil in Hong Kong.
It seems pretty obvious, you don't have a clue about long term operation of a big airline, and much less about revenue/profits/market expansion forecasts for LA, which is by the way a truly continental operator, something no other airline could say seriously in the Latin American market.


Spoken in another way, selling a 20% stake to raise cash, shrinking your fleet, and releasing yourself from future aircraft purchases isn't the sign of a strong carrier. It sounds like one in need of help. Maybe struggling to stay afloat is overstating their position, but it's certainly more accurate than saying LA is doing well.


Wasn't Virgin Atlantic struggling before Delta saved them? Seems like a similar situation...Delta gets instant market penetration/mass, LATAM gets help. AeroMexico was similarly weak. Air France also. The playbook seems to be: Its better to help a weak carrier and cooperate with them on their home turf than to compete with a strong carrier on their home turf.


Sorry but no. LATAM could have up and downs, could have good years and not so good years, but it is far, far away from being "struggling to stay afloat" or "in need of help". LA is the dominant actor in the continent ( it is the market leader or at least has a strong presence in Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia ), and never asked for tax payers money to stay afloat ( like AR, loosing 1 Millon dollars everyday while the tax payers are suffering ). The financial situation of the company is healthy, the fleet is relatively young and well maintained, so no, this is not an airline struggling to stay afloat or screaming for help, this is an airline taking a really good opportunity to make a really good deal with a really good partner after the regulators in Chile blocked their initial strategy (with AA). Nothing more, nothing less.

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8524
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:09 pm

I’m curious to see what will become of GOL. Yes, AA could make a move... but so could others. United or an European carrier.

Interesting times ahead....
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
tphuang
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:19 pm

FSDan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Hard to not see a plan at least by delta to build up focus city that may eventually turn into a hub at Mia.

I don't see how else they can justify spending this much money on an airline struggling to stay afloat. They can start by adding more flights from cities they are strong in and looking to build up like Austin, Nashville, Memphis, Cancun, Cincinnati. And they already have quite a few international flights from their JV partners. This deal will allow them to double that presence.

Sure, a buildup would cost money but Delta has plenty of that. Miami is arguably a larger prize than sea and bos given its place as the undoubtedly leader to Latin America market


What cities do you think LATAM will serve from MIA that DL won't serve from ATL? It's hard to see the case for something like CVG-MIA when that overflies ATL and really won't open up much in the way of new connecting flows. As I said way upthread, I think this makes MIA service from Florida and other points south of ATL more attractive. Those cities have much different geography than CVG.


I believe LA serves SSA, REC, FOR, BEL, and MAO from MIA. And if LA+DL were to start nonstops from the likes of BSB and CNF to the U.S., MIA would be the logical gateway.

I think any DL expansion in MIA related to the LA partnership will be focused on connectivity to the biggest destinations for Latin American travelers, and the cities with the largest South American diasporas in the U.S. I could certainly see a return of DL to MIA-MCO, a beefing up of their presence in NYC-MIA and BOS-MIA, bringing back LAX-MIA for the umpteenth time, and perhaps finding a way to enter some markets new to them like MIA-LAS, MIA-TPA, and/or MIA-WAS. As far as I can tell, demand from Latin America to the U.S. is heavily focused on Florida, NYC, and California, and those are also the areas that have some of the largest expat communities.

I think ATL's role will continue to be feeding traffic accumulated across a plethora of domestic destinations onto flights to the largest South American destinations, with minimal flights to secondary South American cities.


ATL only has one flight a day to the largest south american destinations, which is going to lose out on the one connection itineraries to multiple flights at MIA. Just by having JV with Latam, MIA will already be their primary connection point to many South American places. I think they are going to do more feeds into MIA so that their ff base in those cities will have more options. AA's MIA is definitely subpar in margins and according to posters here, there are gates available and a lot of DL ff in south Florida. If DL truly wants to move into leadership in Latin America market, they are going to buildup MIA. AA is weak on finances. MIA may not be a place where they fight to death.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7369
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:21 pm

The most interesting musical chairs may be in Panama, could Copa be moving alliances to OneWorld ? Star is almost blank in Latin America except for Avianca and Copa, AV is a mess. Does Copa want Avianca's problems?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14572
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:27 pm

tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

What cities do you think LATAM will serve from MIA that DL won't serve from ATL? It's hard to see the case for something like CVG-MIA when that overflies ATL and really won't open up much in the way of new connecting flows. As I said way upthread, I think this makes MIA service from Florida and other points south of ATL more attractive. Those cities have much different geography than CVG.


I believe LA serves SSA, REC, FOR, BEL, and MAO from MIA. And if LA+DL were to start nonstops from the likes of BSB and CNF to the U.S., MIA would be the logical gateway.

I think any DL expansion in MIA related to the LA partnership will be focused on connectivity to the biggest destinations for Latin American travelers, and the cities with the largest South American diasporas in the U.S. I could certainly see a return of DL to MIA-MCO, a beefing up of their presence in NYC-MIA and BOS-MIA, bringing back LAX-MIA for the umpteenth time, and perhaps finding a way to enter some markets new to them like MIA-LAS, MIA-TPA, and/or MIA-WAS. As far as I can tell, demand from Latin America to the U.S. is heavily focused on Florida, NYC, and California, and those are also the areas that have some of the largest expat communities.

I think ATL's role will continue to be feeding traffic accumulated across a plethora of domestic destinations onto flights to the largest South American destinations, with minimal flights to secondary South American cities.


ATL only has one flight a day to the largest south american destinations, which is going to lose out on the one connection itineraries to multiple flights at MIA. Just by having JV with Latam, MIA will already be their primary connection point to many South American places. I think they are going to do more feeds into MIA so that their ff base in those cities will have more options. AA's MIA is definitely subpar in margins and according to posters here, there are gates available and a lot of DL ff in south Florida. If DL truly wants to move into leadership in Latin America market, they are going to buildup MIA. AA is weak on finances. MIA may not be a place where they fight to death.


What daylight flights does LA run at MIA these days? The multiple daily flights don't make much difference to connecting traffic when they leave at 2000, 2130, and 2300.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
efg1588
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:23 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:30 pm

LatinAirliner wrote:
turk223 wrote:
I wonder how this may affect 4C (LATAM Colombia)... Not sure how much 4C depends on AA's flight into Colombia, but I would have to imagine there is some feed at BOG at least. AA has quite a bigger presence in Colombia than DL does...


Several Colombian destinations which are not served by AA and were feeded by Latam: MTR, CUC, BGA, SMR, ADZ, LET, VUP.
The other way around too, Latam announced some weeks ago they will cancel their BOG-MIA flight, because everything in the route was given to AA, now for sure they will not cancel that route, and probably they will try to bring one of their widebodies to compete there.



I hope this is something DL and LATAM will expand upon in the future. As a BOS based DL FF who travels to MDE I lost all 1 stop options once AM left BOS-MEX and DL stopped ATL-MDE. It would be a dream if LATAM or DL launched BOS-BOG which seems plausible given the massive Colombian population we have here in Boston. Either way though a big congrats to DL for once again thinking outside the box.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:33 pm

What about Aerolíneas Argentinas, a Skyteam partner since 29 August 2012? Now that Delta has poached LATAM from One World leaving them without a Latin American partner, is there room for a Chilean and an Argentine airline in Skyteam?
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:44 pm

chepos wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
AA has themselves. they were fine before they had LAN and were big in Brazil before TAM. the reason for so many of the cuts were because of the unstable economies in south america, something delta should be mindful of. AA has MIA, DFW, and LAX which are all strong to south america regardless of the partnership.

this site is in hysteria. AA will be fine. Iberia will be fine. i don't see BA and QF staying in SCL though



AA will be fine? I guess, it depends on how you define 'fine'.

LATAM will separate from oneworld and sever its ties with American. This undermines the one market in which American was dominant, placing American (once again) at a potential strategic disadvantage.
LATAM’s departure will also create a huge hole in Latin America for oneworld, leaving not a single partner based in Latin America.

That is huge.


Yes, AA will be fine. I totally get it, you are a huge DL fan who wants to put this in a sky is falling type of scenario. However, the MIA hub is still there, has not sunk into the Atlantic Ocean and is a strong 300 plus flight a day hub for the airline. The MIA hub has existed well before LAN/LATAM became partners. MIA is the strongest market for many of the destinations in South and Central America and I can’t see AA leaving markets just because LATAM left. The sky is not falling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think you understand my point. I never said the sky is falling for AA at MIA AA will always be king at MIA. I know that, DL knows that AA knows that. However, LATAM and DL now being in the same bed together does significantly take traffic away from AA. Where DL was #3 in overall traffic between the two America's they are now #1. Where AA was #1, they are now #2.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:48 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If anything this will further validate MCO as a connecting point to South America for Delta. Expanding at MIA is pure speculation?


its not speculation. Bastian said it himself that MIA will be expanded.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:13 pm

I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees on this one. It’s no so much that losing LATAM will hurt AA directly, it’s that it’s a major gain for DL in acquiring them as a partner. They now have much broader SA coverage and the indirect effect on AA is that it allows DL to compete more heavily in MIA which will be a blow. And DL has the financial wherewithal to put up a fight there.

For AA, the greatest asset of a partnership with LATAM might very well have been keeping them away from everyone else (a la the Golden State Warriors with Kevin Durant). Them partnering with DL makes DL a lot more competitive in a lot more places that AA relies on heavily.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:15 pm

jumbojet wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If anything this will further validate MCO as a connecting point to South America for Delta. Expanding at MIA is pure speculation?


its not speculation. Bastian said it himself that MIA will be expanded.

Exactly. And why would they drive connections through MCO when LATAM already has such a large operation at MIA? Add to that the fact that demand (especially business demand) to/from MIA is stronger than MCO. It’s a no brainer.
 
Kilgen
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:28 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The most interesting musical chairs may be in Panama, could Copa be moving alliances to OneWorld ? Star is almost blank in Latin America except for Avianca and Copa, AV is a mess. Does Copa want Avianca's problems?


Not likely.

Why? There is one UA person in CM's board of directors:
Mr. John Gebo was elected as a director of Copa Holdings in 2015. He is Senior Vice President of Alliances for United Airlines.
Also Mr. Andrew C. Levy ex CFO at UAL is another member of CM's board of directors.

Also, UA and CM have extensive codeshare and anti-trust in place. As their relationship goes back when CO owned 49% of CM.

And with the mess that AV has, I would not be surprised in CM gets involved as UA cannot own foreign airlines. Specially as CM offered AV a deal to buy portion of it (when DL tried to buy AV as well), but AV decided to get the loan from UA instead.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:40 pm

ITSTours wrote:
Will Delta try to form a JV with LATAM?


This will be more than that, LATM will become part of the Delta Alliance. I do agree that this price doesn't include the 359s yet to be delivered but I think a fair reading is it does include the four 359s currently with LATM (plus the $350m to leave OneWorld). Huge coup.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:43 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
Will Delta try to form a JV with LATAM?


This will be more than that, LATM will become part of the Delta Alliance. I do agree that this price doesn't include the 359s yet to be delivered but I think a fair reading is it does include the four 359s currently with LATM (plus the $350m to leave OneWorld). Huge coup.


No idea what a "Delta Alliance" is, but yes, Delta will seek a JV with LATAM per the call today. Can't really get more integrated than a JV without being the same company.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:47 pm

Has anybody looked at the Alaska Air angle of this?

Alaska and LATAM have been partners for years. Obviously nothing has been announced yet but who agrees (or disagrees) that DL will force LATAM to cut ties with Alaska?
Last edited by jumbojet on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1773
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:47 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Does a route like LAX-GRU stand a chance for AA without LATAM marketing and FF base on Brazil end? Its has to be marginal already being reduced to 4x weekly. Same with LAX-EZE operated 3x weekly.


AA is not dependent upon LATAM for anything in Latin America. AA has had its own sales and marketing teams and its own FF base and corporate contracts in the region going back to the Braniff days. IMHO, the only route that is dependent upon LATAM feed is DFW-SCL.

"
My guess is that if anything gets cut by AA in S. America, LAX-GRU will be the first.
@DadCelo
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1773
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:48 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

DL CVG-MIA shouldn't be hard to believe, they already fly CVG-FLL daily

DL isn't going to buy LATAM, and not connect into its huge operation in MIA, that would be wasteful


So they trade some domestic (predominantly) O&D traffic at FLL for a handful of passengers to secondary Latin America at MIA? I'm not sure why that trade so obiviously makes sense. Maybe it does, but I'm not yet convinced.


Nothing is being traded.

I imagine the first thing is we will see DL metal on MIA-GRU.

It's an obvious next step for them.


Wonder what that rotation will be like?
@DadCelo
 
MLIAA
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:51 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees on this one. It’s no so much that losing LATAM will hurt AA directly, it’s that it’s a major gain for DL in acquiring them as a partner. They now have much broader SA coverage and the indirect effect on AA is that it allows DL to compete more heavily in MIA which will be a blow. And DL has the financial wherewithal to put up a fight there.

For AA, the greatest asset of a partnership with LATAM might very well have been keeping them away from everyone else (a la the Golden State Warriors with Kevin Durant). Them partnering with DL makes DL a lot more competitive in a lot more places that AA relies on heavily.


*This*

Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6193
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:53 pm

MLIAA wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees on this one. It’s no so much that losing LATAM will hurt AA directly, it’s that it’s a major gain for DL in acquiring them as a partner. They now have much broader SA coverage and the indirect effect on AA is that it allows DL to compete more heavily in MIA which will be a blow. And DL has the financial wherewithal to put up a fight there.

For AA, the greatest asset of a partnership with LATAM might very well have been keeping them away from everyone else (a la the Golden State Warriors with Kevin Durant). Them partnering with DL makes DL a lot more competitive in a lot more places that AA relies on heavily.


*This*

Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.


DL didnt dethrone AS in SEA nor did they with B6 in BOS. They are just existing along side them.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26253
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:55 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Does a route like LAX-GRU stand a chance for AA without LATAM marketing and FF base on Brazil end? Its has to be marginal already being reduced to 4x weekly. Same with LAX-EZE operated 3x weekly.


AA is not dependent upon LATAM for anything in Latin America. AA has had its own sales and marketing teams and its own FF base and corporate contracts in the region going back to the Braniff days. IMHO, the only route that is dependent upon LATAM feed is DFW-SCL.

"
My guess is that if anything gets cut by AA in S. America, LAX-GRU will be the first.


AA's South America network is not dependent on LATAM. LAXGRU, where AA has a monopoly in a market of over 120,000 annual passengers and is the largest airline at LAX, will not go anywhere.

Some of these predictions are just inane.
a.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:56 pm

MLIAA wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees on this one. It’s no so much that losing LATAM will hurt AA directly, it’s that it’s a major gain for DL in acquiring them as a partner. They now have much broader SA coverage and the indirect effect on AA is that it allows DL to compete more heavily in MIA which will be a blow. And DL has the financial wherewithal to put up a fight there.

For AA, the greatest asset of a partnership with LATAM might very well have been keeping them away from everyone else (a la the Golden State Warriors with Kevin Durant). Them partnering with DL makes DL a lot more competitive in a lot more places that AA relies on heavily.


*This*

Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.


Let’s not throw alternative facts out there, AS is still larger in SEA than DL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1773
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

AA is not dependent upon LATAM for anything in Latin America. AA has had its own sales and marketing teams and its own FF base and corporate contracts in the region going back to the Braniff days. IMHO, the only route that is dependent upon LATAM feed is DFW-SCL.

"
My guess is that if anything gets cut by AA in S. America, LAX-GRU will be the first.


AA's South America network is not dependent on LATAM. LAXGRU, where AA has a monopoly in a market of over 120,000 annual passengers and is the largest airline at LAX, will not go anywhere.

Some of these predictions are just inane.


Hence the IF
@DadCelo
 
luckyone
Posts: 3116
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:00 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
What about Aerolíneas Argentinas, a Skyteam partner since 29 August 2012? Now that Delta has poached LATAM from One World leaving them without a Latin American partner, is there room for a Chilean and an Argentine airline in Skyteam?

What does AR bring to the table? In addition to the economic and political outlook of Argentina doing its usual cycle of a short period of hopeful followed by a period of tepid and then not at all rosy (which is a shame), the scope of a potential LATAM partnership far outweights (and would likely provide the same) benefits that AR was bringing to the table outside of EZE-domestic connections. LATAM currently doesn't operate any routes that would easily facilitate domestic connections within Argentina--everywhere else is a different matter. So while one option is to discontinue the AR relationship, another option is to carve out Argentina from any code sharing and continue to use AR, as AR has a better developed network of connections from EZE than LATAM--which should be read as LATAM doesn't have any domestic operations at all from EZE, instead using AEP. Further still, but fanciful, under Delta's request LATAM could operate domestic routes from EZE-- ironic as LATAM fought so hard to be able to operate from AEP under the Kirchner government which tried to limit them to EZE.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8271
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:05 pm

MLIAA wrote:
Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.


Delta is not going to threaten AA's leadership in MIA. Directly from Miami-Dade Aviation Department, 7/2019 passenger counts by carrier:

AA, 2.47 million
Envoy, 0.30 million
Delta, 0.235 million
Swift Air, 82K
United, 79K

Notice how LATAM isn't even in the top 5?

http://www.miami-airport.com/library/pd ... 202019.pdf
 
alfa164
Posts: 3666
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LATAM BOS-LIM or SCL. Doubt it, unless you can point to strong O&D markets. BOS' position in the Northeast makes it a very poor aggregator of traffic headed to South America. DL could probably run BOS-BOG with a domestic F 757, though.


Your Boston comment made me think "where would any feed come from outside the metro area?", and one thing entered my mind: Canada.

Instead of thinking about BOS, I wonder if LATAM might be interested in some expansion in Canada - taking advantage of feed from Delta's partner (and another investment recipient, I think) Westjet?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:23 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
What about Aerolíneas Argentinas, a Skyteam partner since 29 August 2012? Now that Delta has poached LATAM from One World leaving them without a Latin American partner, is there room for a Chilean and an Argentine airline in Skyteam?

...or indeed 2 Argentinean airlines? I guess LATAM Argentina would go SkyTeam's way as well?...
 
carljanderson
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:29 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Has anybody looked at the Alaska Air angle of this?

Alaska and LATAM have been partners for years. Obviously nothing has been announced yet but who agrees (or disagrees) that DL will force LATAM to cut ties with Alaska?


If any of the last responses to JV applications by the US DoT are indicitive of where they are now, I think Delta would be wise to not force LATAM out of the partnership with Alaska. I seem to recall discussions about additional partnerships.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:41 pm

carljanderson wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Has anybody looked at the Alaska Air angle of this?

Alaska and LATAM have been partners for years. Obviously nothing has been announced yet but who agrees (or disagrees) that DL will force LATAM to cut ties with Alaska?


If any of the last responses to JV applications by the US DoT are indicitive of where they are now, I think Delta would be wise to not force LATAM out of the partnership with Alaska. I seem to recall discussions about additional partnerships.


DOT explicitly said that Korean Air couldn't be forced out of its partnership with AS. I imagine that the same would apply to LATAM so I suspect DL won't mess around with LATAM's partnership with Alaska Airlines.
 
VCy
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:50 pm

On another note, I wonder what this means for Delta UK. Could we see LATAM and VS develop a strategic partnership?
 
guillelds
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:20 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:50 pm

Is this a reaction about United taking over Avianca's assets in the future?
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2454
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm

This discussion is becoming super long and perhaps my question may have been addressed already but here goes. Is there a reason why DL choose to buy 20% of LATAM rather than another figure such as 10, 30 or even 40%?
 
User avatar
Alsatian
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 10:19 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:09 pm

VCy wrote:
On another note, I wonder what this means for Delta UK. Could we see LATAM and VS develop a strategic partnership?


That makes me guess why Virgin decided to start its first ever South Amercican service (GRU) several months ago, the LATAM partnership was for sure a key determinant.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos