dfwjim1 wrote:

This discussion is becoming super long and perhaps my question may have been addressed already but here goes. Is there a reason why DL choose to buy 20% of LATAM rather than another figure such as 10, 30 or even 40%?

Per Chilean law that is the most they could acquire, I believe. I may be wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Chile allows for 100% foreign ownership. The limiting factor is likely Brazil.

delimit wrote:

Chile allows for 100% foreign ownership. The limiting factor is likely Brazil.

Brazil allows for 100% foreign ownership as well.

These are new shares being issued so 20% is probably that max they could do without the other shareholders objecting to the dilution of their exiting shares....

MIflyer12 wrote:

MLIAA wrote:

Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.

Delta is not going to threaten AA's leadership in MIA. Directly from Miami-Dade Aviation Department, 7/2019 passenger counts by carrier:

AA, 2.47 million
Envoy, 0.30 million
Delta, 0.235 million
Swift Air, 82K
United, 79K

Notice how LATAM isn't even in the top 5?

http://www.miami-airport.com/library/pd ... 202019.pdf

As far as foreign carriers go, where does LATAM fall?

usflyer msp wrote:

delimit wrote:

Chile allows for 100% foreign ownership. The limiting factor is likely Brazil.

Brazil allows for 100% foreign ownership as well.

These are new shares being issued so 20% is probably that max they could do without the other shareholders objecting to the dilution of their exiting shares....

Is that recent? I couldn't find anything but an older 20% limit for Brazil.

delimit wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

delimit wrote:

Chile allows for 100% foreign ownership. The limiting factor is likely Brazil.

Brazil allows for 100% foreign ownership as well.

These are new shares being issued so 20% is probably that max they could do without the other shareholders objecting to the dilution of their exiting shares....

Is that recent? I couldn't find anything but an older 20% limit for Brazil.

The ownership limit was lifted earlier this year.

https://www.bizlatinhub.com/brazils-new-law-allows-domestic-flights-by-foreign-carriers/

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

jumbojet wrote:

Has anybody looked at the Alaska Air angle of this?

Alaska and LATAM have been partners for years. Obviously nothing has been announced yet but who agrees (or disagrees) that DL will force LATAM to cut ties with Alaska?

Seems like DL is slowly chipping away at many of AS's former or current global partners. AF, KL, KE and now Lantam. Coincidence?

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

LATAM is still a OW member. Isn't AA in breach of OW rules by doing this? What would/could be the consequences?

UPlog wrote:

Does a route like LAX-GRU stand a chance for AA without LATAM marketing and FF base on Brazil end? Its has to be marginal already being reduced to 4x weekly. Same with LAX-EZE operated 3x weekly.

You are underestimating the size of the market that American commands in South America and particularly Argentina and Brazil. Both cities have enough demand for LAX, without needing the LATAM FF base to make it a success. AAdvantage has a huge FF base in both countries. Not sure about GRU but EZE-LAX has surpassed every and any expectation AA had. Same with COR-MIA.

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

Sorry...maybe we are jumping to conclusions here? Do we know for certain that it was AA who cancelled the interline agreements, and not LA? Maybe this is DL's attemp to get LA kicked out of OW? Faster than giving notice and all that, surely...

Sounds like a good deal and a win situation for LATAM but it sounds like a desperate move by DL to increase presence in S.America with the incentive or deal they are offering. Just my two cents.

mercure1 wrote:

Some current AA flying might not make sense without LATAM partnership.

That's a ridiculous statement. AA's strength in LatAm network predates LATAM. There is absolutely nothing that is dependent on the partnership.

jumbojet wrote:

Has anybody looked at the Alaska Air angle of this?

Alaska and LATAM have been partners for years. Obviously nothing has been announced yet but who agrees (or disagrees) that DL will force LATAM to cut ties with Alaska?

Of course they will, but I doubt latam was bringing in that much revenue for Alaska. This is all about Mia and south america

MalevTU134 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

Sorry...maybe we are jumping to conclusions here? Do we know for certain that it was AA who cancelled the interline agreements, and not LA? Maybe this is DL's attemp to get LA kicked out of OW? Faster than giving notice and all that, surely...

Theories aside, the above is the second measure taken today by AA. Earlier today, American had zeroed out all availability on LATAM US codeshares with AA - they are no longer bookable.

In all fairness, what is OW going to do? Kick out AA for responding to a business situation? Ed Bastian said today he expects LA and DL to be codesharing by year's end. LA's departure from OW will be quick.

dcajet wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

Sorry...maybe we are jumping to conclusions here? Do we know for certain that it was AA who cancelled the interline agreements, and not LA? Maybe this is DL's attemp to get LA kicked out of OW? Faster than giving notice and all that, surely...

Theories aside, the above is the second measure taken today by AA. Earlier today, American had zeroed out all availability on LATAM US codeshares with AA - they are no longer bookable.

In all fairness, what is OW going to do? Kick out AA for responding to a business situation? Ed Bastian said today he expects LA and DL to be codesharing by year's end. LA's departure from OW will be quick.

It’s unfortunate, but seems AA is willing to further damage its brand because it’s pouting DL swooped in, by inconveniencing passengers. Those passengers will remember the difficult experience they are now having.

jbs2886 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

Sorry...maybe we are jumping to conclusions here? Do we know for certain that it was AA who cancelled the interline agreements, and not LA? Maybe this is DL's attemp to get LA kicked out of OW? Faster than giving notice and all that, surely...

Theories aside, the above is the second measure taken today by AA. Earlier today, American had zeroed out all availability on LATAM US codeshares with AA - they are no longer bookable.

In all fairness, what is OW going to do? Kick out AA for responding to a business situation? Ed Bastian said today he expects LA and DL to be codesharing by year's end. LA's departure from OW will be quick.

It’s unfortunate, but seems AA is willing to further damage its brand because it’s pouting DL swooped in, by inconveniencing passengers. Those passengers will remember the difficult experience they are now having.

I am told this restrictions are on the AA end. LATAM has put no such measures in place and is still accepting reservations for AA codeshares, tickets, bagagge, etc.

dcajet wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Theories aside, the above is the second measure taken today by AA. Earlier today, American had zeroed out all availability on LATAM US codeshares with AA - they are no longer bookable.

In all fairness, what is OW going to do? Kick out AA for responding to a business situation? Ed Bastian said today he expects LA and DL to be codesharing by year's end. LA's departure from OW will be quick.

It’s unfortunate, but seems AA is willing to further damage its brand because it’s pouting DL swooped in, by inconveniencing passengers. Those passengers will remember the difficult experience they are now having.

I am told this restrictions are on the AA end. LATAM has put no such measures in place and is still accepting reservations for AA codeshares, tickets, bagagge, etc.

That’s my point. AA is making it difficult for their own customers (even those flying AA through a prior LATAM booking).

Now American is denying they did this. Not sure what to think at this point.

https://twitter.com/crankyflier/status/ ... 2037548032

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

Yeah, I can't believe how quick they did that. Even faster than I changed my netflix password after breaking up with my gf.

AA's South American network comes from Braniff International and Eastern Airlines. Both existed without LATAM. American Airlines will be just fine in South America.

luckyone wrote:

Apparently the Chilean Supreme Court blocked an attempt by LATAM to have closer ties with AA and BA. Will Delta's smaller presence in South America be less of a hindrance to a close relationship?

At least they did their homework at last.
I was always against the LAN & TAM merger/acquisition because it created a Leviathan relative to other players, specially now that Avianca Brasil has folded.

The only good news from an economic competition POV is that the OW dominance between Europe / Latin America may be challended somewhat, but LATAM leaving OW is not necessarily linked to severing their JV with IB, as IB & LATAM actually double most of their flights into or out of MAD, sometimes within less than 30'.

All in all, DL's dominance on America ( the whole continent ) is worrisome, it's now a player so big in can influence prices.
I also think LATAM will fly into ATL, it's not that further up & MIA leaves much to be desired for PAX comfort.
This also explains why DL is not expanding int'l flights from their fortress hub & developping BOS, SEA & JKF instead, LATAM will provide enough feed to keep US domestic flights busy with some additional growth at the expense of AA down in MIA.

DDR wrote:

AA's South American network comes from Braniff International and Eastern Airlines. Both existed without LATAM. American Airlines will be just fine in South America.

Not sure if serious. Both went bankrupt...

When did Delta pull out of LAX-GRU?

gatibosgru wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

MLIAA wrote:

Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.

Delta is not going to threaten AA's leadership in MIA. Directly from Miami-Dade Aviation Department, 7/2019 passenger counts by carrier:

AA, 2.47 million
Envoy, 0.30 million
Delta, 0.235 million
Swift Air, 82K
United, 79K

Notice how LATAM isn't even in the top 5?

http://www.miami-airport.com/library/pd ... 202019.pdf

As far as foreign carriers go, where does LATAM fall?

Probably the passenger count for LATAM gets diluted in his airlines (with different AOC's). I don't know the other flights, but just from SCL-MIA LATAM carried 26k passengers in 7/2019. In the meantime, AA carried 13k on the same route.
From EZE-MIA, in July, there were 69k pax, and the market share of LATAM was 18,4%.... that gives us 12k pax for LATAM. And 28k for AA, and the same for AR. For Peru the stats are not clear; only shows the total pax transported per airline and per route, the same as Brazil (or maybe my portuguese is not enough)

Well I'll be flying in a AA/LA codeshare in just a few days so I hope they sort this out soon.

gatibosgru wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

MLIAA wrote:

Delta has shown a willingness to go into enemy territory like SEA and BOS, set up shop and wage war on the incumbent carrier.

Alaska used to be “King of Seattle”, Delta would never dethrone AS in Seattle. And then they did. And they’re doing it in BOS with B6 now. MIA could be next, they have the Latin America feed now.

Delta is not going to threaten AA's leadership in MIA. Directly from Miami-Dade Aviation Department, 7/2019 passenger counts by carrier:

AA, 2.47 million
Envoy, 0.30 million
Delta, 0.235 million
Swift Air, 82K
United, 79K

Notice how LATAM isn't even in the top 5?

http://www.miami-airport.com/library/pd ... 202019.pdf

As far as foreign carriers go, where does LATAM fall?

The source I used and linked lists only the top 5. Regrets.

Delta will also invest $350 million to support the establishment of the strategic partnership.

What will these funds be spent on specifically?

Early in this topic it was suggested that the GOL stock price could take a significant jump today on this news as there could be several suitors interested in talking an equity interest in GOL.
In fact, on the NY exchange GOL was down $1.06 today. GOL opened Monday at $15.73 and closed at $15.38. A loss for the day and the week.

Alsatian wrote:

VCy wrote:

On another note, I wonder what this means for Delta UK. Could we see LATAM and VS develop a strategic partnership?

That makes me guess why Virgin decided to start its first ever South Amercican service (GRU) several months ago, the LATAM partnership was for sure a key determinant.

Although that is what one would have expected, Cueto is said to have indicated in the interview that they are going to go ahead with their IAG JV carving out Chile. Also since AF/KL/UX is already latger and IAG+LA, can that JV get approved? I am not able to see a clear path forward.

questions wrote:

Delta will also invest $350 million to support the establishment of the strategic partnership.

What will these funds be spent on specifically?

If they wanted us to know - or felt they had to be specific due to regulatory requirements - we would know.

HP69 wrote:

This probably means that AA will end SCL service, as it heavily relies of LATAM feed.

Not a chance.

mcogator wrote:

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

Yeah, I can't believe how quick they did that. Even faster than I changed my netflix password after breaking up with my gf.

Well, but was that a gf of 20 years who announced one fine day morning that she was engaged to your rival at work?

onwFan wrote:

mcogator wrote:

dcajet wrote:

American is getting petty. It seems they have cancelled overnight all agreements with LATAM. This actually will hurt people.

LA-045 LATAM AIRLINES GROUP
CANNOT ISSUE TKT-NO AGREEMENT ON FILE
AA-001 AMERICAN AIRLINES/AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.
CANNOT CHECK BAGGAGE NO AGREEMENT ON FILE

Yeah, I can't believe how quick they did that. Even faster than I changed my netflix password after breaking up with my gf.

Well, but was that a gf of 20 years who announced one fine day morning that she was engaged to your rival at work?

Now the word is that LATAM actually did this, probably inadvertently.

usflyer msp wrote:

onwFan wrote:

mcogator wrote:

Yeah, I can't believe how quick they did that. Even faster than I changed my netflix password after breaking up with my gf.

Well, but was that a gf of 20 years who announced one fine day morning that she was engaged to your rival at work?

Now the word is that LATAM actually did this, probably inadvertently.

Unconvincing. AA flights have disappeared from LA's website already. They are doing everything they can to sever ties ASAP.

There are plenty of AS flights still available though (and even a couple UA flights, which I was quite surprised to discover).

probably inadvertently

Why assume malicious intent when you can assume incompetence. The likelihood is this is an error. There's no reason to leave a mess. It will reflect poorly on both airlines.

dcajet wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Theories aside, the above is the second measure taken today by AA. Earlier today, American had zeroed out all availability on LATAM US codeshares with AA - they are no longer bookable.

In all fairness, what is OW going to do? Kick out AA for responding to a business situation? Ed Bastian said today he expects LA and DL to be codesharing by year's end. LA's departure from OW will be quick.

It’s unfortunate, but seems AA is willing to further damage its brand because it’s pouting DL swooped in, by inconveniencing passengers. Those passengers will remember the difficult experience they are now having.

I am told this restrictions are on the AA end. LATAM has put no such measures in place and is still accepting reservations for AA codeshares, tickets, bagagge, etc.

What is unusual about AA inconveniencing its passengers? Standard MO.

TTailedTiger wrote:

When did Delta pull out of LAX-GRU?

They started at 2009 and if I'm not mistaken they pull out at 2012.

Korean Air 777 and A330 had better service than the DL 763 (which I enjoy but still a 767).

Hope they comeback with the A339 or A359. I don't like AA on the route and rather go through IAH with United.

JJ777 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

onwFan wrote:

Well, but was that a gf of 20 years who announced one fine day morning that she was engaged to your rival at work?

Now the word is that LATAM actually did this, probably inadvertently.

Unconvincing. AA flights have disappeared from LA's website already. They are doing everything they can to sever ties ASAP.

There are plenty of AS flights still available though (and even a couple UA flights, which I was quite surprised to discover).

That info is meaningless. If the interline agreement has been cancelled the flights will not appear. That is no indication of which party did the cancelling.

RobertS975 wrote:

What is unusual about AA inconveniencing its passengers? Standard MO.

Yeh, but they had to go out of their way to do it here, and it may cost them some short-term revenues. If they actually thought about this and implemented it, it's very pretty.

Now, maybe they've thoughy this through and don't want to be the ticketing carrier because they're afraid of a quick transition (well within the 330-day ticketing window?) and getting stuck rebooking a bunch of travelers with LATAM schedule changes.

JJ777 wrote:

Unconvincing. AA flights have disappeared from LA's website already. They are doing everything they can to sever ties ASAP.

There are plenty of AS flights still available though (and even a couple UA flights, which I was quite surprised to discover).

For SCL-MIA on Oct 4-11,, LA is offering nonstop service via LA, or connecting at EZE via 4M, GRU via JJ or LIM via LP. No more AA. Gone.

MIflyer12 wrote:

RobertS975 wrote:

What is unusual about AA inconveniencing its passengers? Standard MO.

Yeh, but they had to go out of their way to do it here, and it may cost them some short-term revenues. If they actually thought about this and implemented it, it's very pretty.

Going out of their way to inconvenience their own customers still sounds about right for modern day AA. I feel bad for all the frontline staff who have to explain to passengers why they suddenly can’t get their connecting boarding passes and will have to recheck baggage. A lot of those passengers will almost certainly miss their connections.

DDR wrote:

AA's South American network comes from Braniff International and Eastern Airlines. Both existed without LATAM. American Airlines will be just fine in South America.

those airlines and networks are from a different era, from decades ago, from strategies that no longer work AA has no more feed from SA, They are basically cut off. Its a very big deal. It has nothing to do with me being a DL fanboy. This is a very big deal whether you like it or not. While JetBlue tires to validate the east coast to London with narrow body A321's we all have to wonder, what is DL's next big power play?

Everybody is going to be fine.
AA has a strong presence in Latin America regardless of LA. In Brazil (my country, therefore where I can better speak) they even have AAdvantage credit cards together with Santander, and they've always been VERY relevant. They probably will need more flights on their own metal and find new codeshare agreements, but it's not that hard for such a big company.
LA has strong O/D traffic to Florida that doesn't rely on connecting through AA's MIA hub. For the other markets, LA+DL will be just as good as LA+AA and perhaps even better.

The 4 A350s DL is getting from LA in 2020, are they already fitted with LA's interior? Will DL change it to DL's interior if it's already fitted with LA's seats?

solracfunk14 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

When did Delta pull out of LAX-GRU?

They started at 2009 and if I'm not mistaken they pull out at 2012.

Korean Air 777 and A330 had better service than the DL 763 (which I enjoy but still a 767).

Hope they comeback with the A339 or A359. I don't like AA on the route and rather go through IAH with United.

Could DL have LATAM put their much younger 767's on that route? I prefer newer 767's quite a bit more in EC than either of the '94 widebody twins.

1989worstyear wrote:

solracfunk14 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

When did Delta pull out of LAX-GRU?

They started at 2009 and if I'm not mistaken they pull out at 2012.

Korean Air 777 and A330 had better service than the DL 763 (which I enjoy but still a 767).

Hope they comeback with the A339 or A359. I don't like AA on the route and rather go through IAH with United.

Could DL have LATAM put their much younger 767's on that route? I prefer newer 767's quite a bit more in EC than either of the '94 widebody twins.

Delta's 767's have a newer interior than their A330's. The age of the aircraft makes no difference. Just how well it has been maintained and updated.

flyinghippo wrote:

The 4 A350s DL is getting from LA in 2020, are they already fitted with LA's interior? Will DL change it to DL's interior if it's already fitted with LA's seats?

I’m assuming that DL will retrofit the 4 they get from LA. Wouldn’t want an inferior product on the flagship aircraft

AlexBrewster03 wrote:

flyinghippo wrote:

The 4 A350s DL is getting from LA in 2020, are they already fitted with LA's interior? Will DL change it to DL's interior if it's already fitted with LA's seats?

I’m assuming that DL will retrofit the 4 they get from LA. Wouldn’t want an inferior product on the flagship aircraft

DL definitely will.

However, timing may be a question. If for some reason DL needs them in service sooner rather than later, DL will want to remove the tornado on the tail and paint the aircraft in DL livery. At a later date they would mod the interiors. If on the other hand they don’t need them ASAP they will paint and mod before entering DL service.