Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Cointrin330 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:54 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

Delta’s CEO flat out said on Thursday that it will grow in Miami.

Good luck.

AA is incredibly weak right now with a poor product and doesn’t make money flying passengers. Delta sees these vulnerability.

AA is not a top performer, that's true, but you're incredibly misinformed with an unintelligent statement saying they don't make money flying passengers. They certainly do and surprisingly did well in Q2 despite the mechanics issue. Does American need a win, yes. Does American need to improve its brand perception, absolutely, but does it have a really poor product? That's debatable.

LAXintl · Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:57 pm

An Update for American and LATAM Customers

American Airlines continues to accept customers and baggage of ticketed LATAM customers who are scheduled to fly on American in accordance with our current interline and oneworld agreements. Additionally, LATAM continues to accept American Airlines customers as well. There is no change for American or LATAM customers, and American is not aware of any customers who are being denied travel.
There is currently no change to our frequent flyer agreement or reciprocal club access for eligible customers of American or LATAM. AAdvantage® members will continue to earn miles on flights marketed by LATAM.
Over the next few months, as we wind down our agreements with LATAM that are still intact today, American will work with LATAM to ensure all of our customers are taken care of. American has suspended new codeshare bookings only. American remains the largest U.S. carrier to both Latin and South America and we look forward to competing and growing in this region of the world.

--

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

SCQ83 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:57 pm

airbazar wrote:
And then there's TAP who although don't have a big presence in Latin America, does have a huge presence in Brazil which happens to be the largest economy and largest market in Latin America by a very large margin

https://www.anac.gov.br/assuntos/dados- ... aeroportos

Brazil had 210 million passengers in 2018, of which only 23 million were international.

MEX+CUN alone had 33 million international passengers in 2018. So "largest market in Latin America by a very large margin" depends on which measure. Definitely not for international traffic which is what LATAM is interested about when connecting to the US or Europe.

Also despite TAP's "big presence in Latin America", GRU-MAD had 637,428 passengers in 2017 (busiest European route) compared to 417,788 for GRU-LIS (5th busiest after MAD, CDG, LHR and FRA).

Cointrin330 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:59 pm

lesfalls wrote:
With DL placing money into LATAM (https://onemileatatime.com/delta-latam/) just the other day, LATAM has already started to change terminals at JFK (from T8 to T4 where DL is based) and added extra flights to DLs JFK and LAX hubs. With this being the case in the U.S will we be seeing a change like this at MAD as IB is currently their oneworld partner in Europe? Maybe they'll move to T1/T2 where Air Europa is based and use them as their connecting partner? Could we even see them move all their flights to a SKYteam hub in Europe such as AMS or CDG? LHR too could be a good choice where they as they operate flights and Virgin Atlantic is a skyteam partner.

Your thoughs?

LATAM hasn't moved from T8 to T4 at JFK. Will they, probably, and eventually, if there is space at T4.

dcajet · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:03 pm

jumbojet wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Now American is denying they did this. Not sure what to think at this point.

https://twitter.com/crankyflier/status/ ... 2037548032

any update on this? Has this situation been rectified?

American came out with this:

Lootess · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:04 pm

I was wondering when DL would get more A350s, awesome way of doing it.

Ed is doing great, first shoring up the Korean Air relationship and now going checkmate on AA. I never believed GOL was a bad relationship but their scope was rather small being a 737 airline, and always felt like DL had just a token presence in the region.

Not much different when DL pulled the plug on AS in SEA.

Cubsrule · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:06 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
globalflyer wrote:
I know it is very early but I would be curious to see if DL would allow LA to add capacity into ATL with it own metal to supplement each other on routes such as SCL, GRU, LIM, etc? I do think that this was a brilliant move on DL's part!

Why? ATL is basically replacing DFW for onward connections. LA never served DFW and I dont see why they would serve ATL. DL already serves those destinations so they should be good. Whats more likely is that DL adds routes from MIA.

We're not going to see 8 or 10 LATAM flights a day but maybe there will be some limited places where it makes sense to shift capacity between carriers. For instance, if LATAM wants to have TechOps do some work on its widebodies, it may make sense to rotate them through on scheduled flights. It's hard to imagine the transition of more that a small handful of flights for operational reasons, but it's not immediately obvious to me that there will be no changes.

dcajet · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:07 pm

miaami wrote:
How long until we see DL equipment on MIA-GRU/GIG/EZE/SCL/LIM/BOG?

IF that happens... Bastian said yesterday that any changes of the two airlines' networks would be after a JV is in place, 18-24 months out.

LAOCA · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:13 pm

jumbojet wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Now American is denying they did this. Not sure what to think at this point.

https://twitter.com/crankyflier/status/ ... 2037548032

any update on this? Has this situation been rectified?

The questions are: Were the 4 included in the 1.9B? And did DL assume the deposits on the 10 on order?

737307 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:16 pm

Any idea how these things come to be? Was it LA calling Bastian and say: "Hi Ed, wanna buy us?".
Or was it a Delta network team wondering if they should buy a stake in LA, or ...?

MalevTU134 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:25 pm

DWC wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I could see maybe an increase of flights to CDG. CDG is currently served from GRU and LIM is served from AMS. There is no link between SCL and AMS/CDG so I could see a SCL-CDG route added soon.

AF already fly a daily 777 to SCL & KLM a 787.
I can see a LA flight SCL-CDG seconding the GRU-CDG flight, but only if LA interlines with AF.
That would be easier if LA joined Skyteam.

In fact, even if DL are heavily investing in some airlines, Skyteam are becoming THE powerhouse to Latin America, as AF/KLM were the second player after LA/IB, until now. With LA leaving OneWorld, I don't know if that means severing their JV with IB, but with DL investing, AF/KLM/LA are now the first combo between EU & LatAm.

I also don't see LA staying alone with no alliance, like EK.
I find their entry into Skyteam way more probable than not, but what do I know...

LA has interlined with AF since the LAN Chile days. Please get your facts right. Also, why not mention UX when talking about SkyTeam traffic between Europe and South America? They just happen to serve the biggest number of destinations in Latin America from Europe among SkyTeam members.

HunterATL · Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:29 pm

LAOCA wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Now American is denying they did this. Not sure what to think at this point.

https://twitter.com/crankyflier/status/ ... 2037548032

any update on this? Has this situation been rectified?

The questions are: Were the 4 included in the 1.9B? And did DL assume the deposits on the 10 on order?

LATAM is not receiving $1.9 billion from Delta. The tender is structured so that the present shareholders can sell 20% of their shares to Delta at the premium price. To the extent that not enough shareholders accept the tender, new shares will be issued and sold to Delta by LATAM at the premium price. Those funds will naturally constitute new capital for LATAM. LATAM expects most shareholders to accept the tender, and the largest shareholder has already agreed.

The A350 agreement is a separate contract, the terms of which have not been disclosed except for a very open-ended delivery schedule.

Lootess · Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:10 pm

LAOCA wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
So what is Delta going to do with these additional 14 A350s? I doubt they’ll be doing any South American flying unless launch LAX-Deep South America, which I expect they’ll at least be flying LAX-GRU. A mix of the A333/A339s will likely comprise most of Delta’s Deep South America flights after this is approved. The A350s take over the West Coast-Asia flying that Delta initially intended? Also, Delta will take four A359s from LATAM starting at the end of next year. LATAM had ten A35Js on order. No mention by Bastian of whether Delta will convert the A35J order into the A359s. Noted that Airbus really needs to build more A35Js. What happens to the deferred 10 A359s? If I remember correctly, these aircraft can be converted to other orders. Perhaps Delta converts them into additional A339s? Mentioned earlier, how will the additional 14 A350s affect Delta’s aircraft retirement schedule? They are too big to be 763 replacements unless Delta continues to do some serious upgauging. This assumes the 777 fleet isn’t going anywhere before 2025.

I agree with this assessment. 39 is too many 350s for DL. I think the last 10 already coming in will be replacing the 777ERs. They could be replacements for the LR as well, but not by 2025. The 350s main purpose it to fly missions the 339 cannot. Or at least not as efficiently.

It would be interesting to see a few 350-1000s onboarded, but there are limited markets in which the extra size would make sense for DL. Be great to see, but I suspect that part of these orders will be deferred, or replaced with 339s. Perhaps even more 321NEOs.

As far as being 767 replacements, no way.

A350s are not a 1:1 replacement program, they will be used to support the LATAM relationship as well just like how AA sent 773s down there.

HunterATL · Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:32 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Any idea how these things come to be? Was it LA calling Bastian and say: "Hi Ed, wanna buy us?".
Or was it a Delta network team wondering if they should buy a stake in LA, or ...?

An investment bank put Delta and LATAM in touch with each other 3 months ago. LATAM stated that they began evaluating multiple possibilities after the JV with American was rejected, and the investment bank likely knew that LATAM was open to new arrangements for the Americas.

questions · Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:51 pm

LA uses T8 at JFK. Granted not all DL or SkyTeam aligned airlines use T4, e.g., AF and KE at T1.

Given T8 being AA’s terminal, does T4 have gate capacity to absorb LA?

lightsaber · Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:57 pm

Folks, if a post violates forum rules, flag it. Otherwise, no grammatical or etiquette police.

Do not discuss other users. That is a quick way to gain moderator attention.

Lightsaber

HunterATL · Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:59 pm

questions wrote:
Delta will also invest $350 million to support the establishment of the strategic partnership.

What will these funds be spent on specifically?

LATAM stated that the funds will be used to cover the direct costs of leaving oneworld and ending the codeshare with American (termination fees, etc.), the legal costs of seeking the regulatory approvals for the codeshare and joint venture with Delta, and any indirect losses LATAM may incur before the new arrangement with Delta is up and running. LATAM will receive a one time payment of $150 million followed by 8 consecutive quarterly payments of $25 million.

questions · Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:45 pm

HunterATL wrote:
questions wrote:
Delta will also invest $350 million to support the establishment of the strategic partnership.

What will these funds be spent on specifically?

LATAM stated that the funds will be used to cover the direct costs of leaving oneworld and ending the codeshare with American (termination fees, etc.), the legal costs of seeking the regulatory approvals for the codeshare and joint venture with Delta, and any indirect losses LATAM may incur before the new arrangement with Delta is up and running. LATAM will receive a one time payment of $150 million followed by 8 consecutive quarterly payments of $25 million.

Thanks.

dcajet · Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:47 pm

Regardless of whether AA or LA are cancelling previously existing agreements between the two, Delta will honor previously-purchased LATAM tickets for customers with impacted travel.

LATAM customers who have current or future itineraries that include a canceled segment on American Airlines may contact Delta to be reaccommodated. Routing changes will be permitted in order to accommodate origin and destination on the Delta network.

Delta is committed to doing right by people and will do everything possible to ensure that impacted customers are cared for.

Gotta love it.

https://news.delta.com/delta-honor-prev ... ted-travel

MSPNWA · Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:55 pm

This is fishy. I wonder if part of the $350m was a poison pill for LATAM to break up current itineraries and hurt AA.

usflyer msp · Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:51 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This is fishy. I wonder if part of the $350m was a poison pill for LATAM to break up current itineraries and hurt AA.

I don't know if that is exactly it but this whole interline agreement situation along with DL's press release does seem fishy to me as well..

jfk777 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:05 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Good luck.

AA is incredibly weak right now with a poor product and doesn’t make money flying passengers. Delta sees these vulnerability.

AA is not a top performer, that's true, but you're incredibly misinformed with an unintelligent statement saying they don't make money flying passengers. They certainly do and surprisingly did well in Q2 despite the mechanics issue. Does American need a win, yes. Does American need to improve its brand perception, absolutely, but does it have a really poor product? That's debatable.

This attitude at Delta that AA 'Sucks" is wrong. What is so great about Delta international operations and all those 767 still flown, AA has put most of their 767 to pasture. Most AA European flights are by 787 & 777 with a few A330.. Delta would love to have AA's LHR operation, DL is only a player at LHR with Virgin. DL would love to have Miami to Latin America which AA owns and will continue to own. Just because Delta and Latam are now partners doesn't mean their position at MIA is so much stronger.

Delta messed up big in Asia, they don't even fly to Hong Kong, with their merging with Northwest. AA flies to HKG twice daily from the mainland USA. Now they have pulled gotten very lucky to get enough Haneda slots to quit NRT. How that Haneda international terminal is going to handle all the new flights is beyond me, was there in August, and its already busy. Remember ANA & JAL are expanding their HND to USA schedule too.

jfk777 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:07 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
And then there's TAP who although don't have a big presence in Latin America, does have a huge presence in Brazil which happens to be the largest economy and largest market in Latin America by a very large margin

https://www.anac.gov.br/assuntos/dados- ... aeroportos

Brazil had 210 million passengers in 2018, of which only 23 million were international.

MEX+CUN alone had 33 million international passengers in 2018. So "largest market in Latin America by a very large margin" depends on which measure. Definitely not for international traffic which is what LATAM is interested about when connecting to the US or Europe.

Also despite TAP's "big presence in Latin America", GRU-MAD had 637,428 passengers in 2017 (busiest European route) compared to 417,788 for GRU-LIS (5th busiest after MAD, CDG, LHR and FRA).

How many Mexico City to MAD & EZE to MAD ? Numbers probably bigger than GRU to MAD.

1989worstyear · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:08 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

AA is incredibly weak right now with a poor product and doesn’t make money flying passengers. Delta sees these vulnerability.

AA is not a top performer, that's true, but you're incredibly misinformed with an unintelligent statement saying they don't make money flying passengers. They certainly do and surprisingly did well in Q2 despite the mechanics issue. Does American need a win, yes. Does American need to improve its brand perception, absolutely, but does it have a really poor product? That's debatable.

This attitude at Delta that AA 'Sucks" is wrong. What is so great about Delta international operations and all those 767 still flown, AA has put most of their 767 to pasture. Most AA European flights are by 787 & 777 with a few A330.. Delta would love to have AA's LHR operation, DL is only a player at LHR with Virgin. DL would love to have Miami to Latin America which AA owns and will continue to own. Just because Delta and Latam are now partners doesn't mean their position at MIA is so much stronger.

Delta messed up big in Asia, they don't even fly to Hong Kong, with their merging with Northwest. AA flies to HKG twice daily from the mainland USA. Now they have pulled gotten very lucky to get enough Haneda slots to quit NRT. How that Haneda international terminal is going to handle all the new flights is beyond me, was there in August, and its already busy. Remember ANA & JAL are expanding their HND to USA schedule too.

What's wrong with the 767, especially compared to a 15-20 year old 777 or A330?

dcajet · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:13 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

AA is not a top performer, that's true, but you're incredibly misinformed with an unintelligent statement saying they don't make money flying passengers. They certainly do and surprisingly did well in Q2 despite the mechanics issue. Does American need a win, yes. Does American need to improve its brand perception, absolutely, but does it have a really poor product? That's debatable.

This attitude at Delta that AA 'Sucks" is wrong. What is so great about Delta international operations and all those 767 still flown, AA has put most of their 767 to pasture. Most AA European flights are by 787 & 777 with a few A330.. Delta would love to have AA's LHR operation, DL is only a player at LHR with Virgin. DL would love to have Miami to Latin America which AA owns and will continue to own. Just because Delta and Latam are now partners doesn't mean their position at MIA is so much stronger.

Delta messed up big in Asia, they don't even fly to Hong Kong, with their merging with Northwest. AA flies to HKG twice daily from the mainland USA. Now they have pulled gotten very lucky to get enough Haneda slots to quit NRT. How that Haneda international terminal is going to handle all the new flights is beyond me, was there in August, and its already busy. Remember ANA & JAL are expanding their HND to USA schedule too.

What's wrong with the 767, especially compared to a 15-20 year old 777 or A330?

Nothing at all. Just someone who does not seem to like Delta.

1989worstyear · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:29 pm

dcajet wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
jfk777 wrote:

This attitude at Delta that AA 'Sucks" is wrong. What is so great about Delta international operations and all those 767 still flown, AA has put most of their 767 to pasture. Most AA European flights are by 787 & 777 with a few A330.. Delta would love to have AA's LHR operation, DL is only a player at LHR with Virgin. DL would love to have Miami to Latin America which AA owns and will continue to own. Just because Delta and Latam are now partners doesn't mean their position at MIA is so much stronger.

Delta messed up big in Asia, they don't even fly to Hong Kong, with their merging with Northwest. AA flies to HKG twice daily from the mainland USA. Now they have pulled gotten very lucky to get enough Haneda slots to quit NRT. How that Haneda international terminal is going to handle all the new flights is beyond me, was there in August, and its already busy. Remember ANA & JAL are expanding their HND to USA schedule too.

What's wrong with the 767, especially compared to a 15-20 year old 777 or A330?

Nothing at all. Just someone who does not seem to like Delta.

Lol - comparing a 1986 type with two '94 types seems kind of moot in 2019, especially with the 787 and A350 selling well.

Also, many of LATAM's 763's were built in the last decade, a fact that seems lost on many people here :banghead:

.

JAMBOJET · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:50 pm

dcajet wrote:
Regardless of whether AA or LA are cancelling previously existing agreements between the two, Delta will honor previously-purchased LATAM tickets for customers with impacted travel.

LATAM customers who have current or future itineraries that include a canceled segment on American Airlines may contact Delta to be reaccommodated. Routing changes will be permitted in order to accommodate origin and destination on the Delta network.

Delta is committed to doing right by people and will do everything possible to ensure that impacted customers are cared for.

Gotta love it.

https://news.delta.com/delta-honor-prev ... ted-travel

Delta started this drama. They should fix the fall out. But a very delta-esque PR blast: “start the drama, get the bloggers you pay to feign dramatic shock, attempt to fix it, post a PR bulletin about the action”

Great move by delta
Arguably the coup of the century.. but please: a bulletin about fixing the drama they started is so delta

chepos · Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:55 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Regardless of whether AA or LA are cancelling previously existing agreements between the two, Delta will honor previously-purchased LATAM tickets for customers with impacted travel.

LATAM customers who have current or future itineraries that include a canceled segment on American Airlines may contact Delta to be reaccommodated. Routing changes will be permitted in order to accommodate origin and destination on the Delta network.

Delta is committed to doing right by people and will do everything possible to ensure that impacted customers are cared for.

Gotta love it.

https://news.delta.com/delta-honor-prev ... ted-travel

Delta started this drama. They should fix the fall out. But a very delta-esque PR blast: “start the drama, get the bloggers you pay to feign dramatic shock, attempt to fix it, post a PR bulletin about the action”

Great move by delta
Arguably the coup of the century.. but please: a bulletin about fixing the drama they started is so delta

Interestingly, all you have to do is read a couple of post up and based on hearsay, theories, rumors, hysteria people where outraged at AA. Let’s not even talk about twitter. It does not take much for selective outrage on the web but alas.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DL747400 · Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:05 pm

jfk777 wrote:
This attitude at Delta that AA 'Sucks" is wrong. What is so great about Delta international operations and all those 767 still flown, AA has put most of their 767 to pasture. Most AA European flights are by 787 & 777 with a few A330.. Delta would love to have AA's LHR operation, DL is only a player at LHR with Virgin. DL would love to have Miami to Latin America which AA owns and will continue to own. Just because Delta and Latam are now partners doesn't mean their position at MIA is so much stronger.

Delta messed up big in Asia, they don't even fly to Hong Kong, with their merging with Northwest. AA flies to HKG twice daily from the mainland USA. Now they have pulled gotten very lucky to get enough Haneda slots to quit NRT. How that Haneda international terminal is going to handle all the new flights is beyond me, was there in August, and its already busy. Remember ANA & JAL are expanding their HND to USA schedule too.

And yet DL is printing cash and generating a revenue premium relative to their peers. People are willing to pay more to fly DL. Clearly, DL are doing many things right and firing on a cylinders.

SEU · Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:09 pm

When LATAM's livery came out, I thought it looks similar to Delta....

TYWoolman · Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:23 pm

SEU wrote:
When LATAM's livery came out, I thought it looks similar to Delta....

I think LATAM'S livery and branding is great and creative! Cool logo for the leading South American carrier! Local and Global designing.

kondoo · Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:27 pm

What's interesting is that LATAM in their investor call mentioned that they did not expect any changes to their codeshare relationship for months. They really did not see American reacting so swiftly to their move. AA is not going to sit pretty for sure.

gatibosgru · Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:59 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
And then there's TAP who although don't have a big presence in Latin America, does have a huge presence in Brazil which happens to be the largest economy and largest market in Latin America by a very large margin

https://www.anac.gov.br/assuntos/dados- ... aeroportos

Brazil had 210 million passengers in 2018, of which only 23 million were international.

MEX+CUN alone had 33 million international passengers in 2018. So "largest market in Latin America by a very large margin" depends on which measure. Definitely not for international traffic which is what LATAM is interested about when connecting to the US or Europe.

Also despite TAP's "big presence in Latin America", GRU-MAD had 637,428 passengers in 2017 (busiest European route) compared to 417,788 for GRU-LIS (5th busiest after MAD, CDG, LHR and FRA).

To be fair, LIS has flights to many other Brazilian destinations that MAD/CDG/LHR/FRA dont, so all Brazilians basically connect in GRU to those cities while they have other options to LIS.

questions · Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:10 am

TYWoolman wrote:
SEU wrote:
When LATAM's livery came out, I thought it looks similar to Delta....

I think LATAM'S livery and branding is great and creative! Cool logo for the leading South American carrier! Local and Global designing.

Looks like a tornado to me.

Need to see in person. I liked the LAN livery.

jfk777 · Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:17 am

1989worstyear wrote:
dcajet wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

What's wrong with the 767, especially compared to a 15-20 year old 777 or A330?

Nothing at all. Just someone who does not seem to like Delta.

Lol - comparing a 1986 type with two '94 types seems kind of moot in 2019, especially with the 787 and A350 selling well.

Also, many of LATAM's 763's were built in the last decade, a fact that seems lost on many people here .

Its not when the plane was built but what the plane is, a newly built 767 has an "old" perception against a 10 year old 787.

AA 777-300ER are fairly new and the 777-200ER have new seats too so if they are 20 years old their seats are new. Its like United's 767 vs. Delta's, the UA birds are "new" looking inside with their expanded Polaris seats, he Delta birds are not up to United standards. UA is expanding Business Class, Delta is subtracting Business seats why ? The Delta 777 have less J class seats today than ever.

dcajet · Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:38 am

jfk777 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Nothing at all. Just someone who does not seem to like Delta.

Lol - comparing a 1986 type with two '94 types seems kind of moot in 2019, especially with the 787 and A350 selling well.

Also, many of LATAM's 763's were built in the last decade, a fact that seems lost on many people here .

Its not when the plane was built but what the plane is, a newly built 767 has an "old" perception against a 10 year old 787.

AA 777-300ER are fairly new and the 777-200ER have new seats too so if they are 20 years old their seats are new. Its like United's 767 vs. Delta's, the UA birds are "new" looking inside with their expanded Polaris seats, he Delta birds are not up to United standards. UA is expanding Business Class, Delta is subtracting Business seats why ? The Delta 777 have less J class seats today than ever.

And yet customers pay a premium to travel with Delta. And the airline is the most profitable in the industry. In spite of the "shortcomings" you allege. BTW, have you been aboard a Delta 767? And their newly remodeled 767-400 with the new Delta One seat? It takes any Polaris seat to task, and then some.

jumbojet · Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:42 am

jfk777 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

AA is incredibly weak right now with a poor product and doesn’t make money flying passengers. Delta sees these vulnerability.

AA is not a top performer, that's true, but you're incredibly misinformed with an unintelligent statement saying they don't make money flying passengers. They certainly do and surprisingly did well in Q2 despite the mechanics issue. Does American need a win, yes. Does American need to improve its brand perception, absolutely, but does it have a really poor product? That's debatable.

This attitude at Delta that AA 'Sucks" is wrong. What is so great about Delta international operations and all those 767 still flown, AA has put most of their 767 to pasture. Most AA European flights are by 787 & 777 with a few A330.. Delta would love to have AA's LHR operation, DL is only a player at LHR with Virgin. DL would love to have Miami to Latin America which AA owns and will continue to own. Just because Delta and Latam are now partners doesn't mean their position at MIA is so much stronger.

Delta messed up big in Asia, they don't even fly to Hong Kong, with their merging with Northwest. AA flies to HKG twice daily from the mainland USA. Now they have pulled gotten very lucky to get enough Haneda slots to quit NRT. How that Haneda international terminal is going to handle all the new flights is beyond me, was there in August, and its already busy. Remember ANA & JAL are expanding their HND to USA schedule too.

and AA would love to have DL's profits. DL keeping those 767's as long as they have, coupled with maintaining a disciplined approach with buying new aircraft and keeping low debt was what enabled them in the first place to easily get this deal done.

SCQ83 · Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:42 am

gatibosgru wrote:
To be fair, LIS has flights to many other Brazilian destinations that MAD/CDG/LHR/FRA dont, so all Brazilians basically connect in GRU to those cities while they have other options to LIS.

Which are marginal destinations at best for long-haul traffic. Brasilia is only one daily to Europe (TAP). Not even AF could make it work. Secondary cities like Guayaquil or Medellín probably have more seats to Europe than Brasilia or Belo Horizonte. Even Bogotá is catching up with Guarulhos and at this pace in a few years BOG could become the busiest airport in LatAm.

So Brazil is not the busiest market for international traffic by a wide margin. It is a very large domestic market for obvious reasons (huge country, +200 million people) but that it is.

dcajet · Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:46 am

dcajet wrote:
Regardless of whether AA or LA are cancelling previously existing agreements between the two, Delta will honor previously-purchased LATAM tickets for customers with impacted travel.

LATAM customers who have current or future itineraries that include a canceled segment on American Airlines may contact Delta to be reaccommodated. Routing changes will be permitted in order to accommodate origin and destination on the Delta network.

Delta is committed to doing right by people and will do everything possible to ensure that impacted customers are cared for.

Gotta love it.

https://news.delta.com/delta-honor-prev ... ted-travel

When wonders never cease... Now you see it, now you don't. Delta has taken down the above page from the Delta News Hub.

tphuang · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:23 am

I don't see why AA at MIA is harder battle than AS at SEA. AS is about the same size in SEA as AA at MIA and has a larger market share of Seattle area than AA does in South Florida. And SEA is a more important to AS than MIA is to AA. AS also gets a much better margin at SEA. And now DL has a huge shot in the arm with LATAM partnership and they already have a bunch of JV flights for international stuff. Adding domestic stuff will be bloody, but not any more bloody than BOS/SEA. It probably won't happen right away, but maybe in 2 years if airline industry is still going well.

TYWoolman · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:40 am

questions wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
SEU wrote:
When LATAM's livery came out, I thought it looks similar to Delta....

I think LATAM'S livery and branding is great and creative! Cool logo for the leading South American carrier! Local and Global designing.

Looks like a tornado to me.

Need to see in person. I liked the LAN livery.

A force to be reckoned with!!

VSMUT · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:43 am

So what exactly is the deal with the A350s? The 4 outstanding orders and 10 more? Doesn't LATAM pretty much only have A350-1000s left on order?

glideslope900 · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:49 am

How financially stable is Latam? I heard they are not a profitable airline. Why would Delta invest in a non profitable airline?

TYWoolman · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:50 am

tphuang wrote:
I don't see why AA at MIA is harder battle than AS at SEA. AS is about the same size in SEA as AA at MIA and has a larger market share of Seattle area than AA does in South Florida. And SEA is a more important to AS than MIA is to AA. AS also gets a much better margin at SEA. And now DL has a huge shot in the arm with LATAM partnership and they already have a bunch of JV flights for international stuff. Adding domestic stuff will be bloody, but not any more bloody than BOS/SEA. It probably won't happen right away, but maybe in 2 years if airline industry is still going well.

Suddenly the Havana route seems relevant. I think A220-200's and A220-300's and A320's will be in Miami serving Raleigh, Austin, Nashville, San Jose, Seattle, and intra-Florida. The A220's a differentiating product offering not in American's horizon any time soon.

questions · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:57 am

TYWoolman wrote:
questions wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I think LATAM'S livery and branding is great and creative! Cool logo for the leading South American carrier! Local and Global designing.

Looks like a tornado to me.

Need to see in person. I liked the LAN livery.

A force to be reckoned with!!

questions · Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:59 am

glideslope900 wrote:
How financially stable is Latam? I heard they are not a profitable airline. Why would Delta invest in a non profitable airline?

I can’t answer your first question.

As far as your second question, access to the market and a belief they can make money. DL is not reckless in its investments.

aemoreira1981 · Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:04 am

HunterATL wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

any update on this? Has this situation been rectified?

The questions are: Were the 4 included in the 1.9B? And did DL assume the deposits on the 10 on order?

LATAM is not receiving $1.9 billion from Delta. The tender is structured so that the present shareholders can sell 20% of their shares to Delta at the premium price. To the extent that not enough shareholders accept the tender, new shares will be issued and sold to Delta by LATAM at the premium price. Those funds will naturally constitute new capital for LATAM. LATAM expects most shareholders to accept the tender, and the largest shareholder has already agreed.

The A350 agreement is a separate contract, the terms of which have not been disclosed except for a very open-ended delivery schedule.

There is also a separate contract where Delta is paying LATAM to exit oneworld. Given how dominant LATAM is in South America, and how this could also shore up their Argentinian operations, other airlines need them as a partner more than LATAM needs one. I expect agreements with Qantas to survive, although there could be a switch from Iberia to Air Europa on Madrid.

As for a JV, DL and LA(JJ) only overlap on GRU-JFK. This JV should easily gain approval, and I could see GIG-JFK returning, among others, along with a potential focus city at MIA in conjunction with LA(JJ/4M). How the routes play out would be interesting...could GIG-JFK be DL metal while DL discontinues JFK-GRU on its own metal with LA upgauging?

jumbojet wrote:
DL keeping those 767's as long as they have, coupled with maintaining a disciplined approach with buying new aircraft and keeping low debt was what enabled them in the first place to easily get this deal done.

This so much! DL planes look fresh even if they're close to timing out, while AA has not kept up its 767 cabins at all. N171DN likely looks fresher than N350AN, despite the fact that the former is approaching 135,000 hours.

Sydscott · Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:34 am

TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I don't see why AA at MIA is harder battle than AS at SEA. AS is about the same size in SEA as AA at MIA and has a larger market share of Seattle area than AA does in South Florida. And SEA is a more important to AS than MIA is to AA. AS also gets a much better margin at SEA. And now DL has a huge shot in the arm with LATAM partnership and they already have a bunch of JV flights for international stuff. Adding domestic stuff will be bloody, but not any more bloody than BOS/SEA. It probably won't happen right away, but maybe in 2 years if airline industry is still going well.

Suddenly the Havana route seems relevant. I think A220-200's and A220-300's and A320's will be in Miami serving Raleigh, Austin, Nashville, San Jose, Seattle, and intra-Florida. The A220's a differentiating product offering not in American's horizon any time soon.

It's a harder battle because unlike at SEA where AS had partners doing their International flying, AA has both a domestic and international hub. And that domestic and international hub has extensive links, and has for decades had extensive links, with virtually everything to the South of it. So while it's true that DL could expand in MIA, it's not like AA is going to sit on its hands while they do it and it's not like AA is not now going to re-plan its international flights to make up for any loss of coverage from LATAM no longer being their Partner. AA also has lots of time to do this with the current deal taking months to unwind everything and with a J/V application at least a year away, maybe more. AA also has lots of MAX-8s and A321NEO's on order which it can use out of MIA.

So overall this throws a bit of a spanner in the works for AA in terms of having to unexpectedly defend an Area they might not have thought vulnerable but it's not like they don't have time to plan a response and an increase of services, which appears likely, to ensure they retain the premier network or any North American carrier.

usflyer msp · Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:07 am

Sydscott wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I don't see why AA at MIA is harder battle than AS at SEA. AS is about the same size in SEA as AA at MIA and has a larger market share of Seattle area than AA does in South Florida. And SEA is a more important to AS than MIA is to AA. AS also gets a much better margin at SEA. And now DL has a huge shot in the arm with LATAM partnership and they already have a bunch of JV flights for international stuff. Adding domestic stuff will be bloody, but not any more bloody than BOS/SEA. It probably won't happen right away, but maybe in 2 years if airline industry is still going well.

Suddenly the Havana route seems relevant. I think A220-200's and A220-300's and A320's will be in Miami serving Raleigh, Austin, Nashville, San Jose, Seattle, and intra-Florida. The A220's a differentiating product offering not in American's horizon any time soon.

It's a harder battle because unlike at SEA where AS had partners doing their International flying, AA has both a domestic and international hub. And that domestic and international hub has extensive links, and has for decades had extensive links, with virtually everything to the South of it. So while it's true that DL could expand in MIA, it's not like AA is going to sit on its hands while they do it and it's not like AA is not now going to re-plan its international flights to make up for any loss of coverage from LATAM no longer being their Partner. AA also has lots of time to do this with the current deal taking months to unwind everything and with a J/V application at least a year away, maybe more. AA also has lots of MAX-8s and A321NEO's on order which it can use out of MIA.

So overall this throws a bit of a spanner in the works for AA in terms of having to unexpectedly defend an Area they might not have thought vulnerable but it's not like they don't have time to plan a response and an increase of services, which appears likely, to ensure they retain the premier network or any North American carrier.

This.
I would also add that MIA domestic/short-haul international services are not particularly lucrative as carriers have to match the B6/WN/sometimes NK fares at FLL but MIA has significantly higher costs. It would not be a two-way battle between AA/DL at MIA, it would be a five-way battle between AA/DL/WN/B6/NK for South Florida.

jagraham · Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:11 am

Polot wrote:
To be honest I think A.net is predicting a much more radical shift in terms of flying than what will actually end up happening. Let’s keep in mind that LATAM is losing 4 A350s and not taking delivery of 10 additional ones anymore. We are not going to see a dramatic shift in LATAM’s current focus. DL will do more to accommodate LATAM (eg, add some more probably domestic points from MIA) than LATAM will do to accommodate DL.

** Why Delta deferred 13 A350s **

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