TWA85
Posts: 347
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:39 am

dcajet wrote:
TWA85 wrote:
What's the possibility Gol, Viva Air, and Sky Airline could create their own alliance to better compete with LATAM and Avianca? Viva and Sky combined have 100 aircraft on order. That is evidence that the two have big growth ambitions. The three airline groups combined would have a strong presence in Brazil, Chile, Colombia, and Peru. They could leverage each other's resources such as frequent flyer programs, marketing teams, slots, and facilities, etc. to grow their networks within South America and become stronger competitors against LATAM and Avianca.


Well, isn't LATAM the living example of what you are proposing, taken a step further?


That's where the idea came from. With two Pan South American legacy carriers, why not a lowcost/hybrid Pan South American carrier?
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:50 am

Floridian wrote:
Those that question Delta in MIA are going to be surprised. Delta has been flying to Miami more than 75 years! Longer than any other airline. They are deeply entrenched in Florida and fly to more cities than any other airline. EYW/MIA/FLL/PBI/RSW/SRQ/TPA/MCO/MLB/DAB/JAX/GNV/TLH/ECP/VPS/PNS.... nobody has more Florida coverage.


How do you get to that conclusion? AA flies to all of those cities you named. Delta doesn’t fly to more Florida cities than any other airline.

From most of the ones you named (the small Cities) AA goes NE (clt), nw (Dfw), or South (Mia) and, in some cases, Dca to get where you’re going more directly and efficiently. Delta gives you the one option of Atlanta from most of those small Florida dots.
I’d imagine Delta would win on capacity into Florida ex-Miami (maybe including it too), but it’s hard to see the “better coverage” argument being true.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:08 am

Floridian wrote:
Those that question Delta in MIA are going to be surprised. Delta has been flying to Miami more than 75 years! Longer than any other airline. They are deeply entrenched in Florida and fly to more cities than any other airline. EYW/MIA/FLL/PBI/RSW/SRQ/TPA/MCO/MLB/DAB/JAX/GNV/TLH/ECP/VPS/PNS.... nobody has more Florida coverage. With Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico partnerships think we'll see more flights to come with LATAM in MIA. AA will get a real run for the money. LATAM surely will increase in DL hubs ATL and JFK too.

Ok, and?

South Florida (MIA/FLL) is a completely different market than the rest of Florida (primarily because of geography), surely as a Floridian you know that? DL’s strength in places like TLH or JAX has really no role in DL’s potential success in MIA. Only people chasing trash fares (the people DL doesn’t want) will be making a 7 or 5 hr drive to support DL out of MIA.

And, as pointed out, because of the merger with US AA also has a good presence in North Florida/the Panhandle as well.
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:38 am

Floridian wrote:
Those that question Delta in MIA are going to be surprised. Delta has been flying to Miami more than 75 years! Longer than any other airline. They are deeply entrenched in Florida and fly to more cities than any other airline. EYW/MIA/FLL/PBI/RSW/SRQ/TPA/MCO/MLB/DAB/JAX/GNV/TLH/ECP/VPS/PNS.... nobody has more Florida coverage. With Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico partnerships think we'll see more flights to come with LATAM in MIA. AA will get a real run for the money. LATAM surely will increase in DL hubs ATL and JFK too.


Miami is a completely different market then the rest of Florida, hurray for Delta it's flown to Miami for 75 Years, so what. Delta has ZERO history of flying from Miami to Latin America is those 75 years and MIA's core business is flying to Latin America. Delta has a checkered history of flying to London and FRA in the last 30 years. Delta's Latin strength is in its mother hub of Atlanta.

Delta will surely expand some domestic flights to MIA, it is already strong on the Florida to New York market. Latam could fly to Atlanta in parallel with Delta's own flights to Sao Paulo and Santiago but LATAM is better served flying their planes to MIA & JFK allowing Delta to expand their flights to those markets from ATL. MIA is an AA owned city and they are not going to let DL eat their cake. Latam has a huge schedule to Miami having their own hangar at MIA. If Delta launches MIA to GRU flights good luck to them.
 
NYCAdvantage
Posts: 107
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:01 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Floridian wrote:
Those that question Delta in MIA are going to be surprised. Delta has been flying to Miami more than 75 years! Longer than any other airline. They are deeply entrenched in Florida and fly to more cities than any other airline. EYW/MIA/FLL/PBI/RSW/SRQ/TPA/MCO/MLB/DAB/JAX/GNV/TLH/ECP/VPS/PNS.... nobody has more Florida coverage. With Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico partnerships think we'll see more flights to come with LATAM in MIA. AA will get a real run for the money. LATAM surely will increase in DL hubs ATL and JFK too.


Miami is a completely different market then the rest of Florida, hurray for Delta it's flown to Miami for 75 Years, so what. Delta has ZERO history of flying from Miami to Latin America is those 75 years and MIA's core business is flying to Latin America. Delta has a checkered history of flying to London and FRA in the last 30 years. Delta's Latin strength is in its mother hub of Atlanta.

Delta will surely expand some domestic flights to MIA, it is already strong on the Florida to New York market. Latam could fly to Atlanta in parallel with Delta's own flights to Sao Paulo and Santiago but LATAM is better served flying their planes to MIA & JFK allowing Delta to expand their flights to those markets from ATL. MIA is an AA owned city and they are not going to let DL eat their cake. Latam has a huge schedule to Miami having their own hangar at MIA. If Delta launches MIA to GRU flights good luck to them.

I do agree with you, I don’t think Delta wants to put any question mark on their JV application for now, but what I think some of us are missing is that Miami market has been shattered, now instead of having one big alliance competidor, you have two of equal strength, and we are just talking about Delta getting in maybe in a few years but I even wonder if UA may want t go back there, they have Avianca and Copa to help, yields will come down it will be hard to fight alone, I know they AA can a they will but again, I wonder at what price?
 
ordbosewr
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:57 pm

LipeGIG wrote:
Interesting move.
DL decided to go deep in Latin America focusing on an airline that presents a more balanced risk (it is strong in Brazil, but it is also relevant in Peru, Chile, Colombia and Ecuador) versus the pure Brazil risk (G3). Also they grow removing a key player from Oneworld and finally putting a strong advantage for them (Skyteam ?) in the region.

This also turns OneWorld from the top alliance in Latin America into the weak one!

ordbosewr wrote:
Gotta love the move by DL to both strengthen themselves and hurt a competitor. Well done.

That Gol equity just got valuable to both UA and AA.


Hmmm... I can't agree on that.
G3 will face a major challenge now without DL. They have negative equity, and now can't count with the strong support of DL. I am very skeptical about G3 ability to survive in the long run.
G3 is a Brazil big airline but does not represent the footprint AA enjoyed with LA.

To buy equity on G3, it would be better for UA or AA to fly more to Brazil.

I only see AA looking for a code-share agreement.


All fair points, I am not an expert on Gol and the long-term viability of them.
I am far more versed in the US side of this and that is where Gol could get the play.
Do UA and AA have the finances to do the equity purchase if they wanted? hmm, AA has too much debt today, so adding to it is out of the question. Could they fund it from operations, then it comes down to is that the best us of AA's cash. I think many would question that here in the US (by many I mean wall street) . However, that is not the case for UA, they have the financial means (if they have the desire).
In my opinion it is more likely that UA is the one to make the move on Gol, but UA is dealing with Avianca and that mess, so they may not want to go down that road.
The net net is both UA and now AA need more feed in Brazil.
re your point on expansion, iMHO UA does not have the right hubs for these flights and I do not see them doing a radical increase in flights to the region. They have to grow in so many areas (most importantly domestic) that the current fleet is not setup for that (at least what we know of today).
 
FlyerTalkUserNa
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:46 pm

How many international partner departures will DL have out of MIA each evening? At a quick glance it looks like 13 today between 5PM and 1AM (LATAM, Alitalia, Air France, Virgin Atlantic, Air Europa, Aeromexico). I know little about airline ops but I could see a case for one-off afternoon flights between a lot of these Florida cities to drop off and pickup intra-Florida traffic from Delta loyalists that will sacrifice flexibility for Delta reliability/experience, and provide feed to the long-haul partners.
 
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janders
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:38 pm

As a reminder to everyone, this thread is about Delta and its investment in LATAM, not discussions about Mercosur or Venezuela.

Lets stick to aviation.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:48 pm

ALPA posted some comparison stuff about DL-LATAM
Image

Image

Background:

DELTA- LATAM US SERVICE FROM SOUTH AMERICA
LATAMs has seven of the 13 widebody flights pointed at Miami, the main US gateway. The remaining six widebody flights go to to four other points in the US: BOS, JFK, LAX & MCO.
In South America LATAM has three gateways: São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) and Santiago Chile (SCL).
In addition there is widebody service from three points in Brasil: Fortaleza (FOR), Recife (REC) & Salvador (SSA) and narrowbody service to MIA and MCO from Lima Peru (LIM), Belém Brasil (BEL) & Manaus Brasil (MAO). LATAM also operates a flight between MIA and Punta Cana (PUJ) in the Dominican Republic. JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta has six widebody flights to five points in South America: Buenos Aires Argentina (EZE), Rio de Janeiro Brasil (GIG), São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) & Santiago Chile (SCL).
With the exception of the JFK-GIG and GRU flights, these long-haul flights all originate from ATL. In addition there is narrowbody 757 service from ATL to two points Bogota Columbia (BOG) & Quitao Ecuador (UIO) and a 737 narrowbody flight from ATL to Cartagena Columbia (CTG).
JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta previously operated but discontinued service between:
ATL to BSB, CCS, FOR, GYE, MAO MDE & REC
DTW to GRU
JFK to BOG, EZE, GEO (JFK BOG returns Dec 2019 on a 757)
LAX to GRU
MCO to BSB & GRU

Delta currently flies 30% of Delta and LATAM’s combined capacity between the US and South America. That means the current production balance is split 30/70. Even with Equitable Growth – that is the same capacity added by each carrier every year – it could take time for Delta capacity to become more balanced.

As part of the agreement with LATAM, Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.
LAN chose the B787 as its new generation widebody aircraft while TAM chose the A350. Reducing the total number of A350 aircraft operated by LATAM will help reduce costs and remove billions of dollars of financial obligations from LATAM. Currently LATAM Operates seven A350-900
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:49 pm

If I can remember the language on today's earnings call, on the topic of building MIA connections to support LATAM, it was 'a little bit we probably have to add. Select adds.' It was part of the analysts' Q&A if you want to listen for yourself. Dreams of a hub to compete with AA are just that - your dreams.
 
dcajet
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:41 am

LAXintl wrote:
ALPA posted some comparison stuff about DL-LATAM
Image

Image

Background:

DELTA- LATAM US SERVICE FROM SOUTH AMERICA
LATAMs has seven of the 13 widebody flights pointed at Miami, the main US gateway. The remaining six widebody flights go to to four other points in the US: BOS, JFK, LAX & MCO.
In South America LATAM has three gateways: São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) and Santiago Chile (SCL).
In addition there is widebody service from three points in Brasil: Fortaleza (FOR), Recife (REC) & Salvador (SSA) and narrowbody service to MIA and MCO from Lima Peru (LIM), Belém Brasil (BEL) & Manaus Brasil (MAO). LATAM also operates a flight between MIA and Punta Cana (PUJ) in the Dominican Republic. JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta has six widebody flights to five points in South America: Buenos Aires Argentina (EZE), Rio de Janeiro Brasil (GIG), São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) & Santiago Chile (SCL).
With the exception of the JFK-GIG and GRU flights, these long-haul flights all originate from ATL. In addition there is narrowbody 757 service from ATL to two points Bogota Columbia (BOG) & Quitao Ecuador (UIO) and a 737 narrowbody flight from ATL to Cartagena Columbia (CTG).
JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta previously operated but discontinued service between:
ATL to BSB, CCS, FOR, GYE, MAO MDE & REC
DTW to GRU
JFK to BOG, EZE, GEO (JFK BOG returns Dec 2019 on a 757)
LAX to GRU
MCO to BSB & GRU

Delta currently flies 30% of Delta and LATAM’s combined capacity between the US and South America. That means the current production balance is split 30/70. Even with Equitable Growth – that is the same capacity added by each carrier every year – it could take time for Delta capacity to become more balanced.

As part of the agreement with LATAM, Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.
LAN chose the B787 as its new generation widebody aircraft while TAM chose the A350. Reducing the total number of A350 aircraft operated by LATAM will help reduce costs and remove billions of dollars of financial obligations from LATAM. Currently LATAM Operates seven A350-900


Nitpick - LATAM map is missing EZE to MIA service, which in high season can be up to 12x week with LATAM metal.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Ishrion
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:27 am

dcajet wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
ALPA posted some comparison stuff about DL-LATAM
Image

Image

Background:

DELTA- LATAM US SERVICE FROM SOUTH AMERICA
LATAMs has seven of the 13 widebody flights pointed at Miami, the main US gateway. The remaining six widebody flights go to to four other points in the US: BOS, JFK, LAX & MCO.
In South America LATAM has three gateways: São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) and Santiago Chile (SCL).
In addition there is widebody service from three points in Brasil: Fortaleza (FOR), Recife (REC) & Salvador (SSA) and narrowbody service to MIA and MCO from Lima Peru (LIM), Belém Brasil (BEL) & Manaus Brasil (MAO). LATAM also operates a flight between MIA and Punta Cana (PUJ) in the Dominican Republic. JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta has six widebody flights to five points in South America: Buenos Aires Argentina (EZE), Rio de Janeiro Brasil (GIG), São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) & Santiago Chile (SCL).
With the exception of the JFK-GIG and GRU flights, these long-haul flights all originate from ATL. In addition there is narrowbody 757 service from ATL to two points Bogota Columbia (BOG) & Quitao Ecuador (UIO) and a 737 narrowbody flight from ATL to Cartagena Columbia (CTG).
JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta previously operated but discontinued service between:
ATL to BSB, CCS, FOR, GYE, MAO MDE & REC
DTW to GRU
JFK to BOG, EZE, GEO (JFK BOG returns Dec 2019 on a 757)
LAX to GRU
MCO to BSB & GRU

Delta currently flies 30% of Delta and LATAM’s combined capacity between the US and South America. That means the current production balance is split 30/70. Even with Equitable Growth – that is the same capacity added by each carrier every year – it could take time for Delta capacity to become more balanced.

As part of the agreement with LATAM, Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.
LAN chose the B787 as its new generation widebody aircraft while TAM chose the A350. Reducing the total number of A350 aircraft operated by LATAM will help reduce costs and remove billions of dollars of financial obligations from LATAM. Currently LATAM Operates seven A350-900


Nitpick - LATAM map is missing EZE to MIA service, which in high season can be up to 12x week with LATAM metal.


Wasn't there something on LATAM potentially ending MIA-EZE due to disagreements or something? :scratchchin:
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 2883
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:49 am

LAXintl wrote:
ALPA posted some comparison stuff about DL-LATAM
Image

Image

Background:

DELTA- LATAM US SERVICE FROM SOUTH AMERICA
LATAMs has seven of the 13 widebody flights pointed at Miami, the main US gateway. The remaining six widebody flights go to to four other points in the US: BOS, JFK, LAX & MCO.
In South America LATAM has three gateways: São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) and Santiago Chile (SCL).
In addition there is widebody service from three points in Brasil: Fortaleza (FOR), Recife (REC) & Salvador (SSA) and narrowbody service to MIA and MCO from Lima Peru (LIM), Belém Brasil (BEL) & Manaus Brasil (MAO). LATAM also operates a flight between MIA and Punta Cana (PUJ) in the Dominican Republic. JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta has six widebody flights to five points in South America: Buenos Aires Argentina (EZE), Rio de Janeiro Brasil (GIG), São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) & Santiago Chile (SCL).
With the exception of the JFK-GIG and GRU flights, these long-haul flights all originate from ATL. In addition there is narrowbody 757 service from ATL to two points Bogota Columbia (BOG) & Quitao Ecuador (UIO) and a 737 narrowbody flight from ATL to Cartagena Columbia (CTG).
JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta previously operated but discontinued service between:
ATL to BSB, CCS, FOR, GYE, MAO MDE & REC
DTW to GRU
JFK to BOG, EZE, GEO (JFK BOG returns Dec 2019 on a 757)
LAX to GRU
MCO to BSB & GRU

Delta currently flies 30% of Delta and LATAM’s combined capacity between the US and South America. That means the current production balance is split 30/70. Even with Equitable Growth – that is the same capacity added by each carrier every year – it could take time for Delta capacity to become more balanced.

As part of the agreement with LATAM, Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.
LAN chose the B787 as its new generation widebody aircraft while TAM chose the A350. Reducing the total number of A350 aircraft operated by LATAM will help reduce costs and remove billions of dollars of financial obligations from LATAM. Currently LATAM Operates seven A350-900


I actually see DL taking those A35Ks, if they can do JNB at a typical payload on the return.

Now, as for DL routes that were discontinued, I see all of the ATL routes discontinued returning, except for CCS (for obvious reasons) from MIA, possibly with some taken over from LATAM (the narrow-body routes), as well as BSB on the A321neo. From JFK, I could see DL turning over GRU to LATAM completely, while deploying that plane elsewhere on a possible one-day rotation (GRU is a 2-day rotation)...it would be interesting to see if GYE-JFK gets turned over to DL on the A321neo as well to compete against B6 there.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3810
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:55 am

The map is also missing DL's soon to start BOG-JFK service.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:26 pm

LAXintl wrote:
ALPA posted some comparison stuff about DL-LATAM
Image

Image

Background:

[b]DELTA- LATAM US SERVICE FROM SOUTH AMERICA[/b


Nice route maps!
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:31 pm

As per their earnings call, Delta plans a bit of Miami domestic expansion but will focus on connecting traffic in Atlanta and existing Latam U.S. gateways. Would be cool for a large Miami expansion, but I think the strategy here is logical and more formidable to the competiton by utilizing Atlanta but also agressive in Miami where it needs to be to complement the overall network alliance strategy. And utilizes the invested infrastructure of both carriers.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4116
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:52 pm

Ishrion wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
ALPA posted some comparison stuff about DL-LATAM
Image

Image

Background:

DELTA- LATAM US SERVICE FROM SOUTH AMERICA
LATAMs has seven of the 13 widebody flights pointed at Miami, the main US gateway. The remaining six widebody flights go to to four other points in the US: BOS, JFK, LAX & MCO.
In South America LATAM has three gateways: São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) and Santiago Chile (SCL).
In addition there is widebody service from three points in Brasil: Fortaleza (FOR), Recife (REC) & Salvador (SSA) and narrowbody service to MIA and MCO from Lima Peru (LIM), Belém Brasil (BEL) & Manaus Brasil (MAO). LATAM also operates a flight between MIA and Punta Cana (PUJ) in the Dominican Republic. JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta has six widebody flights to five points in South America: Buenos Aires Argentina (EZE), Rio de Janeiro Brasil (GIG), São Paulo Brasil (GRU), Lima Peru (LIM) & Santiago Chile (SCL).
With the exception of the JFK-GIG and GRU flights, these long-haul flights all originate from ATL. In addition there is narrowbody 757 service from ATL to two points Bogota Columbia (BOG) & Quitao Ecuador (UIO) and a 737 narrowbody flight from ATL to Cartagena Columbia (CTG).
JFK GRU (São Paulo) is the only overlapping route between Delta and LATAM.

Delta previously operated but discontinued service between:
ATL to BSB, CCS, FOR, GYE, MAO MDE & REC
DTW to GRU
JFK to BOG, EZE, GEO (JFK BOG returns Dec 2019 on a 757)
LAX to GRU
MCO to BSB & GRU

Delta currently flies 30% of Delta and LATAM’s combined capacity between the US and South America. That means the current production balance is split 30/70. Even with Equitable Growth – that is the same capacity added by each carrier every year – it could take time for Delta capacity to become more balanced.

As part of the agreement with LATAM, Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.
LAN chose the B787 as its new generation widebody aircraft while TAM chose the A350. Reducing the total number of A350 aircraft operated by LATAM will help reduce costs and remove billions of dollars of financial obligations from LATAM. Currently LATAM Operates seven A350-900


Nitpick - LATAM map is missing EZE to MIA service, which in high season can be up to 12x week with LATAM metal.


Wasn't there something on LATAM potentially ending MIA-EZE due to disagreements or something? :scratchchin:


Argentina authorized LATAM to operate the flights with Chilean registered planes; business as usual.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:13 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
If I can remember the language on today's earnings call, on the topic of building MIA connections to support LATAM, it was 'a little bit we probably have to add. Select adds.' It was part of the analysts' Q&A if you want to listen for yourself. Dreams of a hub to compete with AA are just that - your dreams.


Nobody ever said there would be a hub to compete with MIA. They will slowly build up a nice little network that will likely be able to grab strong local market share, serving key local markets like DC, LA and so on. And they won’t fly anything international past existing HAV until after the JBA is approved.
a.
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:37 pm

jagraham wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

I doubt the approval process takes that long. Remember: it was not the U.S. that turned-down the AA-LA JV; it was the Chilean authorities. The story so far indicates they are more than happy with making DL part of a JV, and that roadblock was the only one holding back AA+LA. There is no reason to think the U.S. would change its position, so approval may come more quickly than most people expect.

Ignoring for a moment that JVs take time to negotiate before they’re even submitted (UA and AV have been at it for how long even with United’s controlling interest in Avianca?)
I think you’re forgetting that the DOT never ruled on the aa-la JV. So it wasn’t that it was or wasn’t turned down, but that it didn’t even rule on the topic because this JV requires individual Latin country approval before it went to the DOT.

I’m not sure how any story would indicate that a Chilean court is now “happy with making DL part of a JV”. It’s a court. Is Delta polling justices on the topic? They can get legal advice, and I’m sure they did, but that’s about it. The Chilean court ruled against the AA-LA JV and American had two flights to Chile at the time.
But my point above was never about the Latin approvals, as time consuming as those may be.

It was about the political risk LATAM is taking on JV approval in the US between a trump administration that delta hasn’t built much rapport with (I mean... the irony now that AAB of QR, 10% owner of LA, made that White House meeting when Ed Bastian couldn’t be bothered to interrupt a vacation is priceless) or a future administration that will likely be less pro-JV, especially a new JV that wouldn’t challenge the current #1 in North America - Latin America, but be the new #1 Per public statements by Delta.
The two can codeshare, yes. But while they wait/hope for a JV, LATAM is left with, at best, a very small Codeshare partner in their biggest US market, Miami. Significantly O&D as many have noted, yes, but I don’t think any of us know how many of those Saturday-only or less than daily markets can survive on LATAM with pure O&D alone or with significantly fewer Codeshare options From whatever Delta does in the next few months.
That codeshare can’t legally be coordinated. If Delta did add any Miami-Latin capacity Pre-JV, all it would do is hurt LATAM yields until they have a JV.

Is Delta really expecting to change any Significant corporate share in Miami with, let’s say, five new dots, inferior frequency, and a frequent stop in Atlanta?

Just saying this makes a lot more sense for Delta than it does for LATAM. They appear to have taken a very risky gamble on approval for a JV.


Delta did a big domestic route build in SEA. Nonstop flights to the top 15 metro areas except for Texas (DFW and IAH). I assume they knew AA would cut the LATAM cord in MIA sooner rather than later after LATAM went with DL. So there has to be a DL domestic route build in MIA in the near future. Others have mentioned gate space, which can be an issue; but that was a known commodity. Also, they can have LATAM fly some nonstops to ATL to address connectivity. Don't need a JV for that, just a codeshare.



From the Q3 2019 discussion - DL will build MIA somewhat to support LATAM, but a higher priority is getting LATAM to connect in ATL . .

Duane Pfennigwerth

Okay, thanks. And then just for my follow-up, I wanted to ask you maybe a longer-term question about South Florida. How do you think about the growth prospects for that market longer term and potential connecting opportunities with the LATAM partnership? Is this about getting a bigger presence in South Florida for Delta or is it about building out from Atlanta to point South? Thanks for taking the questions.

Glen Hauenstein

Thanks for the questions, Duane. It’s a little bit of both. I think, if you think about improving the connectivity to the existing LATAM infrastructure in South Florida, there is a little bit we probably have to add to replace some of the flows that’s existing today on American, but we’re not creating a new hub; we're not creating a new giant connecting complex. We're doing selective adds. So, think of it, if you think about Miami as a hub and you think about our size in Dallas or Denver or Chicago, it probably looks a lot more like that to make sure we have key fleets that will go over Miami and then really work with LATAM once we get ATI to continue to develop Atlanta and our other U.S. gateways as the primary connecting points for the South America traffic.

So, I think we have a pretty good plan that takes the best of both, that’s connecting complexes in the U.S. and best service within the local markets, and I think that’s going to be a great platform for growth moving forward.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:08 pm

jagraham wrote:
jagraham wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Ignoring for a moment that JVs take time to negotiate before they’re even submitted (UA and AV have been at it for how long even with United’s controlling interest in Avianca?)
I think you’re forgetting that the DOT never ruled on the aa-la JV. So it wasn’t that it was or wasn’t turned down, but that it didn’t even rule on the topic because this JV requires individual Latin country approval before it went to the DOT.

I’m not sure how any story would indicate that a Chilean court is now “happy with making DL part of a JV”. It’s a court. Is Delta polling justices on the topic? They can get legal advice, and I’m sure they did, but that’s about it. The Chilean court ruled against the AA-LA JV and American had two flights to Chile at the time.
But my point above was never about the Latin approvals, as time consuming as those may be.

It was about the political risk LATAM is taking on JV approval in the US between a trump administration that delta hasn’t built much rapport with (I mean... the irony now that AAB of QR, 10% owner of LA, made that White House meeting when Ed Bastian couldn’t be bothered to interrupt a vacation is priceless) or a future administration that will likely be less pro-JV, especially a new JV that wouldn’t challenge the current #1 in North America - Latin America, but be the new #1 Per public statements by Delta.
The two can codeshare, yes. But while they wait/hope for a JV, LATAM is left with, at best, a very small Codeshare partner in their biggest US market, Miami. Significantly O&D as many have noted, yes, but I don’t think any of us know how many of those Saturday-only or less than daily markets can survive on LATAM with pure O&D alone or with significantly fewer Codeshare options From whatever Delta does in the next few months.
That codeshare can’t legally be coordinated. If Delta did add any Miami-Latin capacity Pre-JV, all it would do is hurt LATAM yields until they have a JV.

Is Delta really expecting to change any Significant corporate share in Miami with, let’s say, five new dots, inferior frequency, and a frequent stop in Atlanta?

Just saying this makes a lot more sense for Delta than it does for LATAM. They appear to have taken a very risky gamble on approval for a JV.


Delta did a big domestic route build in SEA. Nonstop flights to the top 15 metro areas except for Texas (DFW and IAH). I assume they knew AA would cut the LATAM cord in MIA sooner rather than later after LATAM went with DL. So there has to be a DL domestic route build in MIA in the near future. Others have mentioned gate space, which can be an issue; but that was a known commodity. Also, they can have LATAM fly some nonstops to ATL to address connectivity. Don't need a JV for that, just a codeshare.



From the Q3 2019 discussion - DL will build MIA somewhat to support LATAM, but a higher priority is getting LATAM to connect in ATL . .

Duane Pfennigwerth

Okay, thanks. And then just for my follow-up, I wanted to ask you maybe a longer-term question about South Florida. How do you think about the growth prospects for that market longer term and potential connecting opportunities with the LATAM partnership? Is this about getting a bigger presence in South Florida for Delta or is it about building out from Atlanta to point South? Thanks for taking the questions.

Glen Hauenstein

Thanks for the questions, Duane. It’s a little bit of both. I think, if you think about improving the connectivity to the existing LATAM infrastructure in South Florida, there is a little bit we probably have to add to replace some of the flows that’s existing today on American, but we’re not creating a new hub; we're not creating a new giant connecting complex. We're doing selective adds. So, think of it, if you think about Miami as a hub and you think about our size in Dallas or Denver or Chicago, it probably looks a lot more like that to make sure we have key fleets that will go over Miami and then really work with LATAM once we get ATI to continue to develop Atlanta and our other U.S. gateways as the primary connecting points for the South America traffic.

So, I think we have a pretty good plan that takes the best of both, that’s connecting complexes in the U.S. and best service within the local markets, and I think that’s going to be a great platform for growth moving forward.





Thanks for the transcription! I thought it kind of odd to use Denver, Dallas and Chicago as examples but I guess Mr. Hauenstein was trying to stress/allay investor jitters of no plans to hub against the incumbent, like in those cities used as examples. I think a Raleigh-type of operation is a more fitting example!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6975
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:13 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.

I wonder if DL will convert those eight A35Ks on order to A359s. I have the impression that DL's management had concluded that their business model is best served by the A359 and 772 as the largest aircraft in their fleet. I could see some DL routes (LHR, AMS, CDG, ICN from some of their hubs... maybe GRU from JFK/ATL too following the effectiveness of the JBA with LATAM) where an A35K might make sense, but I also think DL is very careful about their yield management, so it is a bit of a mystery what they will do regarding those A35Ks.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5840
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:06 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
If I can remember the language on today's earnings call, on the topic of building MIA connections to support LATAM, it was 'a little bit we probably have to add. Select adds.' It was part of the analysts' Q&A if you want to listen for yourself. Dreams of a hub to compete with AA are just that - your dreams.


Nobody ever said there would be a hub to compete with MIA. They will slowly build up a nice little network that will likely be able to grab strong local market share, serving key local markets like DC, LA and so on. And they won’t fly anything international past existing HAV until after the JBA is approved.


Well, there was the poster talking about building a new concourse, and the guy talking about adding ten gates. Just silly.

Hauenstein gave himself some leeway when he mentioned like Dallas, Chicago, and Denver. My (bad) counts of DL + DL Connection flights yesterday:

DEN, 39
ORD + MDW, 73
DFW + DAL, 50

RDU for comparison, 71

My first assumption is that DL isn't going to build a MIA-hublet that will weaken ATL Latin America traffic. DL pilots just won't (expletive) have it.

The second recognition is that LATAM out of MIA brings few incremental destinations beyond what DL serves from ATL already. Some, yes. When DL talks about 100 new destinations by the LATAM deal most of those are secondary and tertiary airports requiring connections, that most Americans couldn't find with 30 minutes and a map in a room with great lighting.

The third recognition is that few of those new non-stop destinations are served daily by LATAM from MIA.

The fourth recognition is that LATAM's traffic departures are spread throughout the day, not concentrated between 2200 and midnight, for example. Even if DL wanted to have a wave of incoming flights from the top ~ten U.S. airports it wouldn't work.

The fifth recognition is that DL has a decent-sized FLL operation with ~30 flights, and PBI about half that. Dumping capacity into MIA will trash those yields.

Do I think DL is going to schedule an incremental daily ~1,000 seats into MIA from BOS/WAS/CHI/SEA/SFO/LAX/DFW/DEN/BNA/MCO in order to sell 40 seats to Recife, Salvador and Manaus? I do not. I do think:

1) LATAM will use DL's U.S. point of sale strength to grab some U.S. passengers that would have flown AA.

2) DL will use LATAM's point of sales strengths to fill some DL metal to and beyond ATL.

3) DL will add a few - maybe fewer than six - new destinations from ATL to Latin America.

4) DL pilots will challenge the concept of 'balanced adds' put forward by the company, no matter if the metric is seats, pilot hours, ASMs or whatever. IMHO DL will advance something along the idea that LATAM provides 70% of the lift today so 70% of the growth should be theirs. Good luck with that.
 
NYCAdvantage
Posts: 107
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:01 am

MAH4546 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
If I can remember the language on today's earnings call, on the topic of building MIA connections to support LATAM, it was 'a little bit we probably have to add. Select adds.' It was part of the analysts' Q&A if you want to listen for yourself. Dreams of a hub to compete with AA are just that - your dreams.


Nobody ever said there would be a hub to compete with MIA. They will slowly build up a nice little network that will likely be able to grab strong local market share, serving key local markets like DC, LA and so on. And they won’t fly anything international past existing HAV until after the JBA is approved.

I Feel Marc is correct here, don’t expect Delta to say, we are going to run AA out of MIA tomorrow, They didn’t do it in Seattle nor Boston or even at JFK but slowly they built and have gotten in to compete, look at AA at JFK I can hardly believe what T8 has become from the 90s to today,
I feel competition between LA, AV and AA is going to be fierce from now on, but a combination between AV and UA in one side of MiA and LA and DL in the other side with AA in the middle could squeeze AA of lots of money just to break even. and with a huge debt I wonder how long can the go on, and that’s only the beginning, after Join venture gets approved, is going to be even harder, I believe UA may start putting flights at MIA even before Delta, just a thought.

In the 90 AA was the airline, they had the hub at MIA, PA, UA were no match, AA had a great business model the envy of every airline, that was the 90s to just about now, But today’s business model with ATI Join Venture is another kind of Model that is replacing the old model, Wasn’t DL #1 to Tokyo from the USA around 2010 they could not hold it, JL AA and NH UA’s JV squeezed DL out of the NRT hub. Delta could not wait to get out of NRT to Seattle & Seoul. if experience served me well the one without JV usually loses.
True Delta may have to fix certain things with Dalpa but eventually they will get fix, time will tell, DL spending over 2 billion dollar to connect people thru Atlanta, doesn’t make any sense to me. if that’s what they intend to do, they could have done it on cheaper way.
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:57 am

Delta already said in so many words that they aren't planning to dominate MIA. By saying that MIA will grow to the size of ORD or DEN (and as one other poster noted, not even RDU ~70 departures - size). What Delta did say is that there will be some refocus of LATAM into ATL. Where DL can connect to just about anywhere in the USA. Think along the lines of what happened with VS, where DL popped the dream of VS being a mini BA, and refocused VS on England to US, and particularly LHR to JFK. Making the DL-VS JV a significant competitor in the most traveled and most profitable city pair. Expect DL to refocus LATAM, although not to the degree of what happened with VS. Especially in regards to LATAM flying into ATL.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:47 pm

The DL A220 could be a great tool for the JV to use - on flights to MIA ATL and maybe even MCO - for this long routes to Colombia Peru Ecuador and Northern Brazil.

Also, I could see AM adjusting the timing of its NRT and or Brazilian flights to leverage the LATAM FF base on Brazil-Japan, which would not require a visa to change planes at MEX.
 
eastern023
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:47 pm

About SCL:

A few thoughts:

1) I see an updgrade to the ATL-SCL service (DL 777 perhaps?)
2) Given that LA went from 7x to 10x on SCL-JFK I do not see DL starting this service just now, but maybe in the future.
3) LATAM to terminal 4 at JFK, sems logic.
4) When will DL/LA passengers will be able to access each other lounges? As a new airport is being finished at SCL would DL build a new lounge there? Or would just rely on LA's.?

Thanks for your comments.
AA will Rise Again!
 
onwFan
Posts: 40
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:54 pm

jagraham wrote:
Delta already said in so many words that they aren't planning to dominate MIA. By saying that MIA will grow to the size of ORD or DEN (and as one other poster noted, not even RDU ~70 departures - size). What Delta did say is that there will be some refocus of LATAM into ATL. Where DL can connect to just about anywhere in the USA. Think along the lines of what happened with VS, where DL popped the dream of VS being a mini BA, and refocused VS on England to US, and particularly LHR to JFK. Making the DL-VS JV a significant competitor in the most traveled and most profitable city pair. Expect DL to refocus LATAM, although not to the degree of what happened with VS. Especially in regards to LATAM flying into ATL.


I think a LATAM focus into ATL can be described as a ‘joke’ and eventually a ‘disaster’. They clearly know ATL means nothing for LA, which is why they are trying to alleviate LA’s concern with a ‘focus city’ at MIA. Of course, DL fans in this site have already fantasized a DL hub at MIA.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4116
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:10 pm

onwFan wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Delta already said in so many words that they aren't planning to dominate MIA. By saying that MIA will grow to the size of ORD or DEN (and as one other poster noted, not even RDU ~70 departures - size). What Delta did say is that there will be some refocus of LATAM into ATL. Where DL can connect to just about anywhere in the USA. Think along the lines of what happened with VS, where DL popped the dream of VS being a mini BA, and refocused VS on England to US, and particularly LHR to JFK. Making the DL-VS JV a significant competitor in the most traveled and most profitable city pair. Expect DL to refocus LATAM, although not to the degree of what happened with VS. Especially in regards to LATAM flying into ATL.


I think a LATAM focus into ATL can be described as a ‘joke’ and eventually a ‘disaster’. They clearly know ATL means nothing for LA, which is why they are trying to alleviate LA’s concern with a ‘focus city’ at MIA. Of course, DL fans in this site have already fantasized a DL hub at MIA.


Au contraire, but then your name gives away your allegiances...

DL/LATAM are not abandoning MIA whatsoever. For those South American customers that fly P2P to MIA, nothing will change. For those that connect to other points (domestic or international) Atlanta will offer countless more destinations and frequencies than MIA. And if they still choose to connect @ MIA to key US cities, just as fine too.

Where is the "joke/disaster"?
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
geoshina
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:03 pm

A quick glimpse of maybe why Delta wants Latam (and what AA has lost)

Latam Destinations in South America minus Brazil
Image


Latam Destinations in Brazil

Image


Gol Destinations (December 2018)

Image

Have you guys noticed the difference? In Brazil maybe not so much, but in the rest of South America it is clear. Argentina with Latam + Aerolíneas Argentinas will pretty much dominate the market (not considering the likes of Jetsmart, Norwegian or Flybondi).
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:08 am

geoshina wrote:
A quick glimpse of maybe why Delta wants Latam (and what AA has lost)

Latam Destinations in South America minus Brazil
Image


Latam Destinations in Brazil

Image


Gol Destinations (December 2018)

Image

Have you guys noticed the difference? In Brazil maybe not so much, but in the rest of South America it is clear. Argentina with Latam + Aerolíneas Argentinas will pretty much dominate the market (not considering the likes of Jetsmart, Norwegian or Flybondi).

Very pretty maps, but with respect, you are showing the wrong ones. I don’t think Delta spent $2B to connect passengers from SCL to Arica or to help an instagrammer take the perfect picture in Patagonia. There were far cheaper ways to do that and AA will probably utilize those cheaper ways by interlining or codesharing with the LCCs. Those routes you show aren’t only flown by LATAM.
You want the international maps showing LIM, GRU, and SCL to North America and, in particular, Miami. That’s why they paid the big bucks. Going after a few backpacker dollars on their way to Cusco doesn’t pay the bills, having larger corporate client bases in GRU, LIM, SCL, Miami, and, in a way, JFK does.
 
geoshina
Posts: 213
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:05 am

Also with due respect, you have to take out this mentality that these countries are only GRU, LIM, SCL, EZE. The way you wrote makes you picture that these flights are only occupied by tourists, which portrays and shallow and rather popular vision of Latin America.
Other than that someone just posted a map of these international routes you mentioned a few pages ago. You should read it.

How about we provide more information and judge a little bit less?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:16 am

jumbojet wrote:
It is a huge loss for AA. Google it. Plenty of articles have been written about how devastating this is for AA. I am not asking you to believe me, you dont need to. Just take your pick from any article you google about the matter.


Instead of reading bloggers who will rarely say anything good about AA (unlike DL), I can look at the competitive landscape and make my own conclusion. The real blow to AA was the JV getting rejected. The huge blow is not losing LATAM as a partner. Without the JV, the partnership was always going to be limited. Yes, AA has to compete more at MIA, but the loss is more surprising than it is huge.

Everybody has risk in the deal. LATAM is cooking the golden goose at MIA. Now they will have to compete head to head with AA in their most important U.S. destination. DL is risking billions of dollars investing in a struggling airline. We will see who ends up better off in the long run.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:18 am

dmorbust wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
If AA ends up with GOL, then in a single move, LATAM will have made The largest domestic carrier in Brazil shockingly relevant for even more corporate share (LATAM is already #3 for domestic feed with an inferior domestic product to GOL; 30" pitch on economy vs 31-32 on GOL). GOL claims to have the biggest Corporate share in Brazil as it is today and they could end up with, by far, the biggest Latin carrier as their new codeshare partner.

Can you even imagine how much GOL must be salivating at this? They just hit the jackpot. They went from selling their corporate customers on a connection in Atlanta to now: GIG-MIA, GIG-JFK, GRU-LAX, GRU-MIA, The only first class on GRU-JFK.

GOL could then sell the best, by far, Miami network as their own flights and also fly their own aircraft to Miami with codeshare beyond from cities where the MAX can make it.
If LATAM Had come to AA and asked for identical terms of $2B investment, American would’ve been insane to do it. American can replicate anything LATAM does and do it from the Miami point of sale with the strong corporate share it already has. It’s hard to imagine much of LATAM’s NE Brazil flying staying if GOL flies it and has a hub on the Miami end.
LATAM doesn't fly LAX-GRU. They don't fly anything outside of South America from GIG, much less Miami. LATAM had not ceded GIG before because they had an AA partner. They just ceded GIG.


I agree that GOL will indeed end up in a stronger position than before. AA is a much better partner for GOL than DL was.


Precisely. GOL basically won a lottery. LATAM lost big time. In the end, like all DL partnerships, DL will rake up profits at the expense of LATAM, which will still remain unprofitable. LATAM will also lose most international oneworld FFs and only gain DL FFs (which was anyway not huge in Latin America).
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:32 pm

geoshina wrote:
Also with due respect, you have to take out this mentality that these countries are only GRU, LIM, SCL, EZE. The way you wrote makes you picture that these flights are only occupied by tourists, which portrays and shallow and rather popular vision of Latin America.
Other than that someone just posted a map of these international routes you mentioned a few pages ago. You should read it.

How about we provide more information and judge a little bit less?

Nobody thinks that. But the bulk of the travel money in those countries is in GRU, LIM, and SCL (eze won’t be in a JV with delta), particularly in Peru and Chile.
As I said, I truly doubt Delta spent $2B to capture the local traffic in Puerto Montt.
No need to infer/imply a colonialist mindset on others. The gist of my note was geared toward the “why” of Delta’s $2B investment and that clearly wasn’t the connections to Chiclayo. There are many many cheaper ways to get Delta passengers there.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:52 pm

onwFan wrote:
dmorbust wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
If AA ends up with GOL, then in a single move, LATAM will have made The largest domestic carrier in Brazil shockingly relevant for even more corporate share (LATAM is already #3 for domestic feed with an inferior domestic product to GOL; 30" pitch on economy vs 31-32 on GOL). GOL claims to have the biggest Corporate share in Brazil as it is today and they could end up with, by far, the biggest Latin carrier as their new codeshare partner.

Can you even imagine how much GOL must be salivating at this? They just hit the jackpot. They went from selling their corporate customers on a connection in Atlanta to now: GIG-MIA, GIG-JFK, GRU-LAX, GRU-MIA, The only first class on GRU-JFK.

GOL could then sell the best, by far, Miami network as their own flights and also fly their own aircraft to Miami with codeshare beyond from cities where the MAX can make it.
If LATAM Had come to AA and asked for identical terms of $2B investment, American would’ve been insane to do it. American can replicate anything LATAM does and do it from the Miami point of sale with the strong corporate share it already has. It’s hard to imagine much of LATAM’s NE Brazil flying staying if GOL flies it and has a hub on the Miami end.
LATAM doesn't fly LAX-GRU. They don't fly anything outside of South America from GIG, much less Miami. LATAM had not ceded GIG before because they had an AA partner. They just ceded GIG.


I agree that GOL will indeed end up in a stronger position than before. AA is a much better partner for GOL than DL was.


Precisely. GOL basically won a lottery. LATAM lost big time. In the end, like all DL partnerships, DL will rake up profits at the expense of LATAM, which will still remain unprofitable. LATAM will also lose most international oneworld FFs and only gain DL FFs (which was anyway not huge in Latin America).


I don't know if I agree. I like GOL (been using them since they became a Delta partner). But GOL is not a long haul airline like LATAM. Also LATAM is in so many places in Latin America (outside of Brazil). I think AA's business travelers will really miss LATAM. I actually think LATAM and DELTA will have a more natural way to divide routes. Delta will probably leave MIA-LA to LATAM and ATL will be Delta. From JFK, both DL and LATAM will keep JFK-GRU. AA will miss all the LATAM feed into MIA and GOL has no ability to match it (as GOL is today). Also, a bigger picture look, DL/LATAM instantly makes DL relevant in LA. DL has Europe covered really well from JFK but not LA. The finance crowd in NY all have their LA teams based here in NY. So you essentially can now be the bankers airline in NY since you offer LGA & JFK plus EU plus LA. Asia is mostly handled out of SF. But JFK-HKG is probably the main route thetas missing for DL out of JFK right now.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:13 pm

I see Argentina in the DL-LATAM codeshare list as well. So what's the fate of AR after DL JV with LATAM?
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:30 pm

GOL was a good Delta friend, but they are practically like an Alaska Airlines Brazil. 737-only, no long-haul, domestic airline with some lounges that happens to have an upgraded class cabin. It's like a friend that just isn't up to snuff compared to your others like AeroMexico and AF/KLM.

LATAM brings that AF/KLM-like experience to the table. Can certainly expect a seamless JV.
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:10 pm

This isn't a perfect analogy, but I think it still works; imagine if DL had pried IAG away from AA, who now had to partner with much smaller airlines like VS and UX in the UK and Spain. I don't think it's hard to see how that would increase DL's relevance and also be a loss for AA in terms of coverage and market share. But it hardly means AA would all of a sudden be uncompetitive - UA has done well to LHR for decades without having BA as a partner, and I can see a similar situation playing out for AA in South America.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:11 pm

https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2019/October/LATAM.html?activeTag=Press-releases#
This is unexpected, QR are expanding codeshare agreements with LA despite Delta. What does that mean?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:13 pm

spannacomo wrote:
https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2019/October/LATAM.html?activeTag=Press-releases#
This is unexpected, QR are expanding codeshare agreements with LA despite Delta. What does that mean?


It means LATAM will obviously continue partnerships with external airlines.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:33 pm

SQ789 wrote:
I see Argentina in the DL-LATAM codeshare list as well. So what's the fate of AR after DL JV with LATAM?

They will be dropped into the trashbin. Like they did with KE earlier, then CZ and then G3. AR’s membership in Sky is preventing DL from executing what they want.
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:37 pm

spannacomo wrote:
https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2019/October/LATAM.html?activeTag=Press-releases#
This is unexpected, QR are expanding codeshare agreements with LA despite Delta. What does that mean?


Akbar Al Baker really has no choice to start making better on his partnerships, since QR is taking in losses now.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Ishrion wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2019/October/LATAM.html?activeTag=Press-releases#
This is unexpected, QR are expanding codeshare agreements with LA despite Delta. What does that mean?


It means LATAM will obviously continue partnerships with external airlines.

of course I can understand how QR will benefit from this agreement, what I do not understand is why are DL allowing this to happen. DL spent 2B$ to find themselves allied with QR while waging them war in the US?
 
carljanderson
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:31 pm

spannacomo wrote:
of course I can understand how QR will benefit from this agreement, what I do not understand is why are DL allowing this to happen. DL spent 2B$ to find themselves allied with QR while waging them war in the US?


Delta has no choice but to allow this to happen. Has Delta finalized the purchase yet? When is the deal going to close?

It is only 20% of the company, so not a controlling interest.

Finally, USDOT has been taking a keen eye on new JV/ATI. Delta is not allowed to dictate to Korean whom they can and can not partner with (and vice versa)
 
Lootess
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:10 pm

spannacomo wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2019/October/LATAM.html?activeTag=Press-releases#
This is unexpected, QR are expanding codeshare agreements with LA despite Delta. What does that mean?


It means LATAM will obviously continue partnerships with external airlines.

of course I can understand how QR will benefit from this agreement, what I do not understand is why are DL allowing this to happen. DL spent 2B$ to find themselves allied with QR while waging them war in the US?


So? Etihad has investment stakes in Alitalia and Virgin Australia, and Ed talks to them.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:14 pm

Lootess wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

It means LATAM will obviously continue partnerships with external airlines.

of course I can understand how QR will benefit from this agreement, what I do not understand is why are DL allowing this to happen. DL spent 2B$ to find themselves allied with QR while waging them war in the US?


So? Etihad has investment stakes in Alitalia and Virgin Australia, and Ed talks to them.


AF also codeshares with Etihad (or maybe its Qatar). DL also invested in China Eastern (although it has the same "problems" DL sees in the ME3). DL is smart, they won't care as long as it benefits them (i.e., LATAM codeshares) - but ME3 flying to US does not benefit DL.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:07 am

onwFan wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
I see Argentina in the DL-LATAM codeshare list as well. So what's the fate of AR after DL JV with LATAM?

They will be dropped into the trashbin. Like they did with KE earlier, then CZ and then G3. AR’s membership in Sky is preventing DL from executing what they want.


Of course you would say that. :roll:

What if LATAM were to acquire AR? Never say never. Then it could all be tied up in a neat little LATAM / DL package. I know... wouldn't you just HATE that?
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