flyinghippo wrote:

Looks like we're going to have ONE airline for the world... DL/LATAM/AM/VS/KL/KE/AF/MU. They'll probably add VA soon after!

That covers pretty much all the world except for Africa

You know especially with this news today it's all the more telling that DL is snapping up stakes in all of their partners except the Australian one that always has a chunk of it for sale... yikes.

How will LA replace the A350s that will go to DL? With DL's +20yo B763?

This is all going to blow up in Delta's face. Too many hands in too many cookie jars and ALL of them exposed to a downturn in flying due to a recession.

Ishrion wrote:

Anyone else remember this from the application? https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-457245/

American and LATAM, in addition to a stronger competitive position, say the joint venture will allow them to "increase frequencies, upgauge routes and add new flights". Potential new routes include Miami to Belo Horizonte and Recife in Brazil, and Sao Paulo Guarulhos to Austin and San Jose (California).

Irony.

The date on that article is very recent, April 10, 2019.

American Airlines and LATAM Airlines Group promise millions of dollars in consumer benefits in their application to US authorities for an immunised joint venture.
The Oneworld Alliance carriers tout up to $273 million in annual benefits from their proposed tie up that would cover flights between the USA and Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay if approved, in an application to the US Department of Transportation on 3 April. Benefits include improved connectivity, better passenger amenities and even new routes.

SteelChair wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Not immediately. But with the 359s that were already ordered and deferred, it provides a road map to retire the 777s in 5-7 years, or by 2025, which is what the agreement says for the other 10 from LATAM. The 747s were retired about that long after their interior mods weren't they?

They start taking deliveries as soon as next year. No way its even close to tying into the retirement of the 777's.

I thought only 4 of these 350s were coming next year.

From the Delta Newsroom

Delta will acquire four A350 aircraft from LATAM and has agreed to assume LATAM’s commitment to purchase 10 additional A350 aircraft to be delivered beginning in 2020 through 2025, supporting Delta’s ongoing fleet transformation.

Acquire: To buy or obtain. To me this means DL will be buying as part of the 1.9 billion deal 4 of LATAM's 359's.

Now, as far as the commitment to purchase 10 additional 350's, I wonder if DL can convert those orders to more 339 NEO's and accelerate the 763 ER retirements?

TTailedTiger wrote:

If Doug Parker wanted to play hardball he would negotiate fifth freedom rights and do their own flying. It wouldn't be very economical but it would really put the DL pilots in an uproar to see AA pilots doing their own flying in a territory outside of the US.

Why would Delta pilots give a damn if AA pilots fly within the countries of South America?

Packson wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

If Doug Parker wanted to play hardball he would negotiate fifth freedom rights and do their own flying. It wouldn't be very economical but it would really put the DL pilots in an uproar to see AA pilots doing their own flying in a territory outside of the US.

Why would Delta pilots give a damn if AA pilots fly within the countries of South America?

Delta's pilots are already upset about their flying being farmed out to partners. To see their counterparts at AA getting an expanded network would just make things even more tense.

cessna2 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

Miami wrote:

Again, I doubt it.

The fact that two credible sources are reporting it, even with a valid statement of "Delta will also provide LATAM an additional $350 million to help it transition out of Oneworld and plug into Delta's network." isn't enough to convince you? Even the fact that Delta is buying one-fifth of LATAM?

In all fairness the DL press release says, "Delta will also invest $350 million to support the establishment of the strategic partnership." Nowhere in the release does it say LATAM will leave OneWorld.

But Americans press release would indicate they are leaving.
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... p-NET-ALP/

So it appears that four Latam Brazil 359’s were leased to Qatar in the Spring of 2017 - two returned to Latam in the fall of 17 and two are still with Qatar. Perhaps those are the four planes going to Delta??

Corpsnerd09 wrote:

questions wrote:

Phoenix757767 wrote:

AA’s response:

American Airlines remains the largest U.S. carrier to both Latin and South America and we look forward to competing and growing in this region of the world.

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... p-NET-ALP/

What is the difference between Latin America and South America?

Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Puerto Rico...

Thanks.

Wasn't it popular belief here on a.net that DL is unhappy with the A350?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

jumbojet wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

They start taking deliveries as soon as next year. No way its even close to tying into the retirement of the 777's.

I thought only 4 of these 350s were coming next year.

From the Delta Newsroom

Delta will acquire four A350 aircraft from LATAM and has agreed to assume LATAM’s commitment to purchase 10 additional A350 aircraft to be delivered beginning in 2020 through 2025, supporting Delta’s ongoing fleet transformation.

Acquire: To buy or obtain. To me this means DL will be buying as part of the 1.9 billion deal 4 of LATAM's 359's.

Now, as far as the commitment to purchase 10 additional 350's, I wonder if DL can convert those orders to more 339 NEO's and accelerate the 763 ER retirements?

Forget that last comment, LATAM's 10th 359 is awaiting its first flight, can that wind up being a DL bird?

I assume that the A350s will be used by Delta to connect to LATAM more. Or is it Possibly the LATAM flight from JFK to GRU simply becomes the Delta flight with flesh paint?

Hello good morning, what does it mean now for AR? Should they stay in Skyteam or should they change to Star Alliance or Oneworld?

Route map. This is more impressive than I would have thought.

https://www.latam.com/en_ue/about-us/map-of-destinations/europa-oceania-and-asia/

Sascha81 wrote:

Hello good morning, what does it mean now for AR? Should they stay in Skyteam or should they change to Star Alliance or Oneworld?

Now that AV has lost both Brazil and Argentina domestic market permanently, it wouldn't be too terrible for AR to jump to *A. Perhaps NZ could also sponsor them. For oneworld, I imagine their closest win would be to get CZ as soon as possible. Of course, it's not easy given CX who has it's own problems with many predicting they will be absorbed by CA as a matter of time. It's really hard to predict.

It wouldn't surprise me at this point if UA tomorrow buys VA.

AA's only remaining option is to start flying fifth freedom flights between South American countries and purchase stakes in smaller local airlines to feed the fifth freedom flights.

The bigger question here is who could be next? The AA/LAN partnership is over 20 years old. If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

From a consumer's perspective this sounds like great news because it injects a healthy dose of competition into the market. Delta is disrupting AA's existing market leading position between the US and Latin America. More competition usually means better value for consumers.

AA's strategy was to reinforce their market leader position by leveraging an anti competitive JV with the biggest airline in South America... Instead of competing, AA was content to squeeze profits from consumers by joining the two biggest players in the market. The Chilean authorities saw right through this scheme and correctly denied the JV application.

Question becomes, how does AA and subsequently their shareholders respond?

MIflyer12 wrote:

capejet wrote:

I think DL wll begin adding more MIA flights, building up a small focus city, probably new MIA-MCO/DCA/BOS/RDU/SEA/CMH at first, and perhaps CUN/AUA/MBJ as well. But in the long term I think they want to be even larger at MIA. How many gates are available at MIA? In the long term could DL build a new terminal at MIA?

Sorry, but I don't see DL buying a 20% stake in LATAM as the strategy to grow MIA. They'll only get 20% of the profits. I don't see them growing MIA for LATAM connections at the expense of the ATL hub, either.

The guy who wants to see LATAM in Atlanta? Yes, that will happen. But not too often - to keep DL pilots happy.

Absolutely Delta is not doing this to grow MIA. But I bet a result of it will be Delta growing in MIA. It’s the biggest missing piece for them. There’s little reason they can’t replicate what they have done in other markets in Miami, and this helps.

Another inevitable result is that AA will need to grow in South America organically. Belo Horizonte will be the first to resume, is my guess. Then Bolivia and Paraguay.

I wonder how long it took to hammer out the details of this deal? Surely JJ was talking to both AA and DL at the same time.

Was AA in any position to put forward money like DL has?

Ishrion wrote:

TWA85 wrote:

AA's only remaining option is to start flying fifth freedom flights between South American countries and purchase stakes in smaller local airlines to feed the fifth freedom flights.

The bigger question here is who could be next? The AA/LAN partnership is over 20 years old. If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

They could pull away anyone at this point... Did anyone actually see this coming? Completely unexpected.

I agree. Could DL now turn its sights on JL? They have already tried it once. Could they do it again? DL is much stronger now than they were back then (although they were pretty strong back then too). JL is healthier now and can better afford exiting the Oneworld Alliance. Yes DL has its JV with KE, however the two could incorporate JL into the JV, similar to the DL/AF/KL/VS Trans-Atlantic JV.

AA could find itself in real trouble in the not so distant future. It needs their strategic partners (IAG, JL, and LATAM prior to today) to remain competitive and survive. AA MUST become more aggressive globally or it will fall behind its competitors.

TWA85 wrote:

AA's only remaining option is to start flying fifth freedom flights between South American countries and purchase stakes in smaller local airlines to feed the fifth freedom flights.

The bigger question here is who could be next? The AA/LAN partnership is over 20 years old. If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

Why would AA have to start flying 5th freedom flights? Again, AA managed flying to Latin America way before LAN became a partner.

Before TAM and LAN merged , AA had no local partner in Brazil as TAM was a Star partner. Yet, AA managed to make Brazil work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

max999 wrote:

From a consumer's perspective this sounds like great news because it injects a healthy dose of competition into the market. Delta is disrupting AA's existing market leading position between the US and Latin America. More competition usually means better value for consumers.

AA's strategy was to reinforce their market leader position by leveraging an anti competitive JV with the biggest airline in South America... Instead of competing, AA was content to squeeze profits from consumers by joining the two biggest players in the market. The Chilean authorities saw right through this scheme and correctly denied the JV application.

I'm not so sure on the competitive aspect as a whole. Yes, this does break up the leading share, but AA/LA's JV was shot down. If a DL/LA JV is approved, that's a big loss to consumers, and it's debatable that the gain by breaking up AA/LA isn't offset by the loss of an independent DL.

But let's say it is consumer friendly. It creates question marks about the value this is to DL. LATAM is struggling as it is, and now they're facing AA's competition and are losing the shine off the gold nugget that is MIA. This has to be about the future gain of a JV.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Packson wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

If Doug Parker wanted to play hardball he would negotiate fifth freedom rights and do their own flying. It wouldn't be very economical but it would really put the DL pilots in an uproar to see AA pilots doing their own flying in a territory outside of the US.

Why would Delta pilots give a damn if AA pilots fly within the countries of South America?

Delta's pilots are already upset about their flying being farmed out to partners. To see their counterparts at AA getting an expanded network would just make things even more tense.

No it wouldn't. Two separate companies, each not affected by the other. Delta pilots are wanting the management team to honor their Scope and negotiate a fair balance to all future codesharing and JV's. So far its been lopsided and American or any other American company flying in South America has no bearing on Delta pilots future flying.

Wow!

Delta growth in Miami?

More connectivity Latin America-USA via Hartsfield?

Plugging in the Aeroméxico network with LATAM? What might that look like. It would be great if someone on here oils do an overlay of the Delta/WestJet/Aeroméxico/LATAM networks.

What a juggernaut the Delta/Northwest combination has evolved into.

This is definitely not your grandfather’s Delta! It hasn’t been since the merger. They’ve evolved into a tectonic force in the industry.

TWA85 wrote:

If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

IB, QF out of this LA deal?? If one were to set stretch their horizons - maybe BA and JL down the line?

Scotron12 wrote:

DeSpringbokke wrote:

So which A350s will Delta be purchasing from LATAM or we will have to wait for specifics on that on tomorrow morning's call?

According to WIKI ( I know I know ) they have 3x A350-900s still to be delivered & 14x A350-1000s on order.

LATAM Brazil modified the orders of Airbus A350XWB, the order was like this (17) Airbus A350-900XWB and (8) Airbus A350-1000XWB

Adipocere wrote:

TWA85 wrote:

If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

IB, QF out of this LA deal?? If one were to set stretch their horizons - maybe BA and JL down the line?

So, you honestly think regulators would approve an Atlantic JV that includes, AF/KLM/BA/IB/DL and VS (remember they already own part of VS) BA/IB are a packaged deal as they are owned by IAG- EI as well so they would come along.

In the South Pacific they already have a JV with VA, but you suggest bringing QF along. All that would raise some eyebrows.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Packson wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Packson wrote:

Why would Delta pilots give a damn if AA pilots fly within the countries of South America?

Delta's pilots are already upset about their flying being farmed out to partners. To see their counterparts at AA getting an expanded network would just make things even more tense.

No it wouldn't. Two separate companies, each not affected by the other. Delta pilots are wanting the management team to honor their Scope and negotiate a fair balance to all future codesharing and JV's. So far its been lopsided and American or any other American company flying in South America has no bearing on Delta pilots future flying.

Uh, you're not paying attention. Other airlines get brought up all the time in negotiations. When United and their pilots were working out a new contract the Delta pilot payscales and benefits were used as a baseline for what they wanted.

Title should also include LAN leaving OW as its just as important

braniff2hav wrote:

And note that there is scant mention of Sky Team in Delta's press release ... except way down in the 'disclaimer' section. I think Sky Team is soon to be d.e.d.

Skyteam is fine, they didn't lose an entire continent coverage in one press release. OW on the other hand, is definitely not fine.

Envision for a moment Delta cooperating with Emirates( I know... but it’s a crazy industry and anything is possible and Delta has always seemed to find Qatar and their CEO particularly toxic) What would you have? Checkmate?

chepos wrote:

TWA85 wrote:

AA's only remaining option is to start flying fifth freedom flights between South American countries and purchase stakes in smaller local airlines to feed the fifth freedom flights.

The bigger question here is who could be next? The AA/LAN partnership is over 20 years old. If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

Why would AA have to start flying 5th freedom flights? Again, AA managed flying to Latin America way before LAN became a partner.

Before TAM and LAN merged , AA had no local partner in Brazil as TAM was a Star partner. Yet, AA managed to make Brazil work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because DL/LATAM will be MUCH stronger than LAN and TAM were before they became partners to AA. Without feed from LATAM, AA will have a harder time filling its flights to/from South America. AA will have to rely overwhelmingly on the United States point of sale now. DL and LATAM will have the advantage of sales forces on both continents. AA will only have a sales force in the United States. Without an intra-South American network, AA will not be able to compete with LATAM and Delta for lucrative corporate contracts. Prior to LAN and TAM becoming partners to AA, the North America-South America market was fragmented and no airline(s) offered a network with a large connecting presence on both ends. Each airline primarily focused on the point of sale in their home country. AA will definitely survive in South America, however it likely wont be the bread and butter it once was. South America has always been the market where AA was the leader against DL and UA. Now AA will be weaker than the two in Europe, Asia, and South America.

lightsaber wrote:

If Delta had UA's or AA's debt, you would have a point.

DL isn't taking any major risk doing this deal. I see a ROI.

They do have that debt. Don't forget DL's unfunded pension liability, or discount DL's older fleet, which is like a hidden debt load that will put pressure on cash flow for the next 10 years or so. DL's debt position isn't great either, but they currently make the high profit to counterbalance.

North of $2B isn't a large sum for a company as large as DL, but there's plenty of risk, as a positive ROI isn't guaranteed. There's much safer plays for the money, like improving the profitability of your own business. Hey, give DL credit for taking a risk.

TWA85 wrote:

chepos wrote:

TWA85 wrote:

AA's only remaining option is to start flying fifth freedom flights between South American countries and purchase stakes in smaller local airlines to feed the fifth freedom flights.

The bigger question here is who could be next? The AA/LAN partnership is over 20 years old. If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

Why would AA have to start flying 5th freedom flights? Again, AA managed flying to Latin America way before LAN became a partner.

Before TAM and LAN merged , AA had no local partner in Brazil as TAM was a Star partner. Yet, AA managed to make Brazil work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because DL/LATAM will be MUCH stronger than LAN and TAM were before they became partners to AA. Without feed from LATAM, AA will have a harder time filling its flights to/from South America. AA will have to rely overwhelmingly on the United States point of sale now. DL and LATAM will have the advantage of sales forces on both continents. AA will only have a sales force in the United States. Without an intra-South American network, AA will not be able to compete with LATAM and Delta for lucrative corporate contracts. Prior to LAN and TAM becoming partners to AA, the North America-South America market was fragmented and no airline(s) offered a network with a large connecting presence on both ends. Each airline primarily focused on the point of sale in their home country. AA will definitely survive in South America, however it likely wont be the bread and butter it once was. South America has always been the market where AA was the leader against DL and UA. Now AA will be weaker than the two in Europe, Asia, and South America.

Sorry, but you’re nuts.

This is bad for AA, and kar for the course with how poorly the airline is ran, but it’s not devastating. AA will need to re-enter markets like Belo Horizonte, which it’ll easily be able to do.

Cubsrule wrote:

LipeGIG wrote:

LatinAirliner wrote:

Wow that was fast!

Just tried booking a flight from MIA to POA and it routes me: MIA-CUN-PTY-POA with Copa operating CUN-PTY-POA and AA only operating MIA-CUN, all this in the aa.com.

And I believe MIA-BSB will not survive unless AA adjust a quick deal with G3 (which I believe they will try to do, but will only resolve Brazil)

I can imagine an AA meeting tomorrow.... what to do.... no solution for Colombia, Peru, Chile or Argentina other than try to run their own equipment to some markets and to counter attack in fares against future moves from DL/JJ.

What solution does AA need in Chile or Argentina? There is no way other than through local partners to access IQQ or BRC.

And I don’t know that I agree with you about MIA-BSB. AA retains a solid brand in Latin America, a nonstop to the largest O&D market in North America, and good connections to everywhere with appreciable demand. Those things are a good sized chunk of what makes the route succeed and all are independent of LATAM. DL (re)starting ATL-BSB would change things but we aren’t there yet.

You may be right about Chile and Argentina due to the huge concentration on SCL and EZE, but even if we believe that other markets in Chile for example may account for 20% of the travel demand Chile-US, it means this is a market outside of AA's reach without another partnership.

Same reason for me to believe BSB-MIA can be hit by the lack of distribution in Brazil.
Yes, AA have a solid brand but the BSB-MIA leg could be reach by customers on AA and LA websites even for people outside BSB. Now the feed is missing and it can be the difference between being a profitable route or not giving the low levels of return in aviation nowadays (net profits are below 10%). I used this route once but now for example, this is not possible unless I book separate tickets.

Frequent flyers adjust themselves for sure, but they are just part of the market. But how they will deal... big question: the massive LA base of clients in BSB could take advantage of AA's BSB-MIA service... now they will not and I do believe sooner than later BSB is a market where LA (or DL) will cover with an operation to the US.

And believe me: LA base of clients in BSB willing to visit the US is far bigger than the AA base of clients in the US willing to visit BSB.

AA compete in Sao Paulo, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Lima and Bogota with no doubt against LA (and we will see in my opinion more competition for the local O&D as LA will not feed anymore AA). But in other markets, we will se new trends depending on each move.
In the other hand, we will see also more focus on Latam to capture O&D's in Miami, Boston, Los Angeles and New York up to the point they put in place the agreement with DL (and so move from T8 in JFK to T4 where they can get feed from DL).

TWA85 wrote:

chepos wrote:

TWA85 wrote:

AA's only remaining option is to start flying fifth freedom flights between South American countries and purchase stakes in smaller local airlines to feed the fifth freedom flights.

The bigger question here is who could be next? The AA/LAN partnership is over 20 years old. If DL can pull LATAM away from AA, who else can DL pull away from AA and even UA?

Why would AA have to start flying 5th freedom flights? Again, AA managed flying to Latin America way before LAN became a partner.

Before TAM and LAN merged , AA had no local partner in Brazil as TAM was a Star partner. Yet, AA managed to make Brazil work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because DL/LATAM will be MUCH stronger than LAN and TAM were before they became partners to AA. Without feed from LATAM, AA will have a harder time filling its flights to/from South America. AA will have to rely overwhelmingly on the United States point of sale now. DL and LATAM will have the advantage of sales forces on both continents. AA will only have a sales force in the United States. Without an intra-South American network, AA will not be able to compete with LATAM and Delta for lucrative corporate contracts. Prior to LAN and TAM becoming partners to AA, the North America-South America market was fragmented and no airline(s) offered a network with a large connecting presence on both ends. Each airline primarily focused on the point of sale in their home country. AA will definitely survive in South America, however it likely wont be the bread and butter it once was. South America has always been the market where AA was the leader against DL and UA. Now AA will be weaker than the two in Europe, Asia, and South America.

To say all of a sudden AA looses Latin America point if sale is silly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With DL ending their partnership with G3 perhaps they’ll join Star Alliance and help feed UA at GRU...

Scarebus34 wrote:

With DL ending their partnership with B3 perhaps they’ll join Star Alliance and help feed UA at GRU...

Not B3, you mean G3 (GOL)?

Did G3 say they where going to end the DL partnership?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatal

Come on DL, do the same with Cathay!!!!!!!

(yes, I'm aware that an immunized J/V with CX is not possible, but still, equity!

SQ789 wrote:

Scarebus34 wrote:

With DL ending their partnership with B3 perhaps they’ll join Star Alliance and help feed UA at GRU...

Not B3, you mean G3 (GOL)?

I did - it was a typo. Thanks.

chepos wrote:

Did G3 say they where going to end the DL partnership?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatal

It is being reported that the relationship between DL and G3 is 'expected' to end.

Wow, I'm still speechless. So many questions...why on hell latam agreed to change their monopoly in gru, lima and scl with one world partners as BA, IB, QF, AA dominating Latin America-EU/NA/Pacific rim and other OW connections just for trying something new in skyteam? I don't get it

Some conclusions:
1. Skyteam could create a new monopoly in Hispanic America, with aeromexico, AR and latam
2. Definitely could se VA going to scl
3. Air france-klm presence will increase in the region
4. Not getting what role could do ATL for latam. DFW (has more Asia traffic than ATL)
5. What impact could create in United-Copa-avianca
6. Could AA try to buy an stake in AR to compete?
7. QF relationship with latam would be something to look at it

MSPNWA wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

If Delta had UA's or AA's debt, you would have a point.

DL isn't taking any major risk doing this deal. I see a ROI.

They do have that debt. Don't forget DL's unfunded pension liability, or discount DL's older fleet, which is like a hidden debt load that will put pressure on cash flow for the next 10 years or so. DL's debt position isn't great either, but they currently make the high profit to counterbalance.

North of $2B isn't a large sum for a company as large as DL, but there's plenty of risk, as a positive ROI isn't guaranteed. There's much safer plays for the money, like improving the profitability of your own business. Hey, give DL credit for taking a risk.

Yep. But no worries, if DL gets in trouble they will just make the government pick up the pension debt like they did last time.