jagraham
Posts: 924
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Re: LATAM and ATL

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:11 am

Polot wrote:
To be honest I think A.net is predicting a much more radical shift in terms of flying than what will actually end up happening. Let’s keep in mind that LATAM is losing 4 A350s and not taking delivery of 10 additional ones anymore. We are not going to see a dramatic shift in LATAM’s current focus. DL will do more to accommodate LATAM (eg, add some more probably domestic points from MIA) than LATAM will do to accommodate DL.


** Why Delta deferred 13 A350s **
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:49 am

I hope people are kidding when they say DL/LA will give AA a run for their money at MIA.. If anything, LA’s MIA operations will become weaker to what they are now. I am sorry, but LA flying to ATL will be a complete joke..
 
questions
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:34 am

[photoid][/photoid]
onwFan wrote:
I hope people are kidding when they say DL/LA will give AA a run for their money at MIA.. If anything, LA’s MIA operations will become weaker to what they are now. I am sorry, but LA flying to ATL will be a complete joke..


MIA and ATL will co-exist and be complementary for DL and LA. LA’s MIA operations will not become weaker. DL will strengthen MIA but not to the extent of AA.

LA flying to ATL will not be a complete joke, especially for non-South Florida connecting traffic.

This will be a thorn in AA’s side. However it’s not the biggest problem facing AA.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:39 am

questions wrote:
MIA and ATL will co-exist and be complementary for DL and LA. LA’s MIA operations will not become weaker. DL will strengthen MIA but not to the extent of AA.

LA flying to ATL will not be a complete joke, especially for non-South Florida connecting traffic.

This will be a thorn in AA’s side. However it’s not the biggest problem facing AA.


Losing AA's huge connecting network, local flyer base, and now having to compete head-to-head with the AA - yep, LA won't be weaker at MIA. *sarcasm off*

Degrading MIA is the biggest gamble for LA. They're cooking the golden goose, and the question is whether the gains elsewhere will make up for that..
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 am

onwFan wrote:
I hope people are kidding when they say DL/LA will give AA a run for their money at MIA.. If anything, LA’s MIA operations will become weaker to what they are now. I am sorry, but LA flying to ATL will be a complete joke..


LATAM’s MIA operations will not get weaker at the least. It’s a largely local traffic operation. LATAM isn’t even collocated with AA at MIA and the transfers are a complete pain and require exiting security. LATAM never really had a need to relocate to AA’s terminal as it runs largely on Miami originating/terminating traffic.

What this does mean is that I fully expect BOG and GYE will resume on LATAM, and possibly GIG.

DL already said it will build up MIA, that isn’t speculation.
a.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 529
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:24 am

DL and LA terminals are connected airside in MIA so DL building up MIA to the likes of a big focus city like MCO is not such a ridiculous idea.
 
NYCAdvantage
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:19 am

One of the problems I see right now is that many AA followers sound like if they were part of management here, or fans of the way DP team is conducting business at AA, AA don’t have a problem here at MIA, GOL is a Win Win for AA, LATAM is going to suffer now, 2 weeks ago if we had the same evaluation between LATAM and GOL, Avianca or Copa and Azul, We would all agreed that DL had nothing to look in SA. Nor MIA, . If you want to fool your selves by saying there’s no way Delta will do battle AA here in MIA you are kidding your selves, in a few month with this deal you’ll see some mobilization and after a LA DL Join Venture even if they loose money they will slowly grow, like I said DL May loose money but it won’t be as bad as doing it alone, AA may lose money here too and by that time if AA has not gotten their house in order working alone there is no chance, “look at Delta at NRT to US” they are getting out pain was too much doing it alone,

Delta’s management have my deepest respect because they have a strategic plan and they are following it step by step, Back when they bought VS Willie Walsh was laughing about it, He even bet Richard Branson a kick.... Before LHR-JFK, DL was a joke VS was loosing money, today BA AA have to take VS DL seriously they are giving a hell of competition, Before DL got the 9% of GOL, they were a mess today they look better, AM were also losing money, How are they doing today? Avianca was doing ok while they were with DL, they left look at them today, So by looking at the Facts here DL management knows what they are doing and they are focus in their business, and if someone is going to underestimate them is not going to be me, I think MIA could be a battle zone soon because now they have the weapons and a reason to throw money there.
 
DominoxX
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:55 am

To the wondering if LA was negotiating with AA with one hand and DL with the other... an investment bank hooked the two up just three months ago
Thank u, next.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:11 am

Sydscott wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
.....So overall this throws a bit of a spanner in the works for AA in terms of having to unexpectedly defend an Area they might not have thought vulnerable but it's not like they don't have time to plan a response and an increase of services, which appears likely, to ensure they retain the premier network or any North American carrier.


American will battle for sure. But Delta has momentum with more growth (gaining Latam) as opposed to playing defense (losing Latam).
 
LJ
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:22 am

DominoxX wrote:
To the wondering if LA was negotiating with AA with one hand and DL with the other... an investment bank hooked the two up just three months ago


The latter [the investmen banker] is the one who's making the most out of this deal short term. If the investment banker arranges a deal between AA and GOL for the 9% DL has in GOL, they make even more (and are the real winner in this game).
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:26 pm

Sydscott wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I don't see why AA at MIA is harder battle than AS at SEA. AS is about the same size in SEA as AA at MIA and has a larger market share of Seattle area than AA does in South Florida. And SEA is a more important to AS than MIA is to AA. AS also gets a much better margin at SEA. And now DL has a huge shot in the arm with LATAM partnership and they already have a bunch of JV flights for international stuff. Adding domestic stuff will be bloody, but not any more bloody than BOS/SEA. It probably won't happen right away, but maybe in 2 years if airline industry is still going well.



Suddenly the Havana route seems relevant. I think A220-200's and A220-300's and A320's will be in Miami serving Raleigh, Austin, Nashville, San Jose, Seattle, and intra-Florida. The A220's a differentiating product offering not in American's horizon any time soon.


It's a harder battle because unlike at SEA where AS had partners doing their International flying, AA has both a domestic and international hub. And that domestic and international hub has extensive links, and has for decades had extensive links, with virtually everything to the South of it. So while it's true that DL could expand in MIA, it's not like AA is going to sit on its hands while they do it and it's not like AA is not now going to re-plan its international flights to make up for any loss of coverage from LATAM no longer being their Partner. AA also has lots of time to do this with the current deal taking months to unwind everything and with a J/V application at least a year away, maybe more. AA also has lots of MAX-8s and A321NEO's on order which it can use out of MIA.

So overall this throws a bit of a spanner in the works for AA in terms of having to unexpectedly defend an Area they might not have thought vulnerable but it's not like they don't have time to plan a response and an increase of services, which appears likely, to ensure they retain the premier network or any North American carrier.


And AS has done a lot to respond to DL in Seattle, but DL has been willing to stick through all of losses and tough routes. South Florida is the key to Latin America, just like NYC is the primary gateway to Europe. ATL is never going to be the Latin America hub that MIA is. There isn't another city with that amount of O&D to Latin America. If DL wants to really solidify its position in Latin America, it needs to be relevant in MIA.

AA losing Latam at MIA is not a big deal, but DL gaining Latam at MIA is a huge deal. If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.
 
LJ
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:39 pm

tphuang wrote:
AA losing Latam at MIA is not a big deal, but DL gaining Latam at MIA is a huge deal. If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.


I reckon that any build up of Carribean presence would depend on its profitability. Why chase market share in markets which are not profitable? I doubt DL will try to be another AA at MIA. It just wants to be present in those markets which matter and where money is to be made. LATAM enables them to do just that.
 
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par13del
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:48 pm

So if AA management is not that bright, DL has shown them what they should be doing, look at LA routes into South Florida and where AA has no flights, start them as soon as possible, where they do have flights, increase frequency or capacity as soon as possible.
Not much brain power required in those decisions, including seeing how they should respond aggressively rather than sitting and waiting.
Who knows, for many years the mantra on DL outside the USA has been that all roads go through ATL, so have they really changed?
Time will tell, yes the reallocation of the A350's is very interesting.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:00 pm

LJ wrote:
tphuang wrote:
AA losing Latam at MIA is not a big deal, but DL gaining Latam at MIA is a huge deal. If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.


I reckon that any build up of Carribean presence would depend on its profitability. Why chase market share in markets which are not profitable? I doubt DL will try to be another AA at MIA. It just wants to be present in those markets which matter and where money is to be made. LATAM enables them to do just that.


Agreed that Latam allows them to grow where the money is. But I can also see San Juan, Montego Bay, more Cuba out in the distance to satisfy a leisure/local customer. But an onslaught not necessary unless the growing O&D markets demanded, as you stated also thru profitability.
 
FlyerTalkUserNa
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:39 pm

A minor angle on the Florida expansion. Mosaic Corp is in the process or has completed moving their HQ from Minneapolis to Tampa. Part of the justification for the relocation was to be closer to their large ops in Florida and Brazil. Could be interesting to see what support they might provide to a TPA-MIA flight or MCO-GRU. Maybe they really step up and support TPA-GRU, but that feels like a stretch. Appears their Brazil operations are within reasonable proximity to Sao Paolo.

Given their previous presence in Minneapolis one would think they already have a relationship with DL.
 
BarryH
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:44 pm

Some of you are missing the point. Is DL a threat to AA in MIA now? Of course not. It's all about building a base. Adding MIA service to the 20% of cities LATAM connects onward to and that generates 80% of the connecting revenue isn't that hard (aircraft availability and gate space permitting). Some of the secondary and tertiary cities AA connects from MIA aren't that a big a deal volume wise and can be chipped away at over time economics permitting once the 20% is taken care of. If Delta can ramp up service to the 20% that matters fairly quickly flyers, including corporate accounts, can be seduced in to moving to DL/SkyTeam from AA/Oneworld. DL with SkyTeam and its JVs can offer corporate accounts more international coverage outside Latin America than AA/Oneworld can. And with a better soft and hard product.

One of the biggest challenges is for LATAM to get to DL's service levels. LATAM can be a s**t show at times and their aircraft, especially the premium cabins, need help. DL loyalists are in for a rude awakening flying LATAM in its current state. All things being equal its not a hard choice for travelers to choose DL over AA. AA's constant employee issues, project Oasis planes, reliability challenges, and general ambivalence towards its passengers is going to bite them in a** and that more than anything is what makes DL's Latin America push likely to succeed. I was an AA Platinum Pro and abandoned ship to DL about a year ago and never looked back even though AA was the better choice based on schedule alone. AA's success or failure isn't about continents, hubs and planes it's about how people feel about them and I personally don't know anyone that aligns or flies with them that has a choice. If this ends up being a battle of attrition in MIA AA's balance sheet vs. DL's certainly doesn't position them well for the long run.

P.S. - I'd bet the reason AA cut ties with LATAM so abruptly is about accounts receivable due AA that's behind. AA's likely thinking with all this incoming cash why not strong arm LATAM and get paid.
 
phxtristar
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:53 pm

Just a Thought......

I believe with Delta's investment into LATAM, they(LATAM) will consider re-opening a route to PTY which could lead to a SkyTeam focus city. With AirFrance, KLM, Aeromexico and Delta having a presence, the missing part would/could be COPA Airlines. I recognize, that COPA is part of the Star Alliance, but with Avianca being in Star Alliance, COPA is poised to being wooed to better Alliance. I can also foresee Korean Air using their 787 to PTY to create another avenue to Latin America.
I feel for OneWorld and would be surprised to see AmeriCanT being asked to leave OneWorld. Yes, they were a founding member but none of the other carriers(in OneWorld) are banking on being a biggest budget airline.
Respectfully,

PHX Tristar
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:01 pm

onwFan wrote:
I hope people are kidding when they say DL/LA will give AA a run for their money at MIA.. If anything, LA’s MIA operations will become weaker to what they are now. I am sorry, but LA flying to ATL will be a complete joke..


Wait a year of two and see. How maybe daily flights by LA to MIA currently exist? It may become like LHR for DL, who with VS have a respectable number of flights there in spite of the fact that it is a OW hub. DL has the money and the guts to do a lot of things.
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:03 pm

Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:05 pm

phxtristar wrote:
Just a Thought......

I believe with Delta's investment into LATAM, they(LATAM) will consider re-opening a route to PTY which could lead to a SkyTeam focus city. With AirFrance, KLM, Aeromexico and Delta having a presence, the missing part would/could be COPA Airlines. I recognize, that COPA is part of the Star Alliance, but with Avianca being in Star Alliance, COPA is poised to being wooed to better Alliance. I can also foresee Korean Air using their 787 to PTY to create another avenue to Latin America.
I feel for OneWorld and would be surprised to see AmeriCanT being asked to leave OneWorld. Yes, they were a founding member but none of the other carriers(in OneWorld) are banking on being a biggest budget airline.
Respectfully,

PHX Tristar


KE nonstop ICN to PTY? Now that is quite the unexpected route for me, at least. I don't see it, but I may be wrong.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:28 pm

Lootess wrote:
Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.


There is a very big difference between what DL did at SEA and the current market situation in MIA. DL had a monopoly and used feed from AS to build their international portfolio out of SEA, and then built a domestic network to feed those flights. It is much easier to build a hub when you have a profitable market to build it around. The verdict is still out about BOS, as JetBlue is still much larger than DL and the "hub" hasn't proven itself so far.

DL at MIA would have no strong-hold, it would have to fight with AA tooth and nail in every single market. AA is a well established player in MIA as well as South America, that was before any partnership with LATAM. DL would unlikely dislodge AA's advantages there, and would most likely result in huge losses. Both airlines are large enough to sustain losses at a hub for quite some time, but you can bet AA would retaliate elsewhere as they have many more aircraft at their disposal.
 
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chepos
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Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:34 pm

phxtristar wrote:
Just a Thought......

I believe with Delta's investment into LATAM, they(LATAM) will consider re-opening a route to PTY which could lead to a SkyTeam focus city. With AirFrance, KLM, Aeromexico and Delta having a presence, the missing part would/could be COPA Airlines. I recognize, that COPA is part of the Star Alliance, but with Avianca being in Star Alliance, COPA is poised to being wooed to better Alliance. I can also foresee Korean Air using their 787 to PTY to create another avenue to Latin America.
I feel for OneWorld and would be surprised to see AmeriCanT being asked to leave OneWorld. Yes, they were a founding member but none of the other carriers(in OneWorld) are banking on being a biggest budget airline.
Respectfully,

PHX Tristar


I take it you haven’t flown IB/BA intra Europe in Y recently. Maybe they will also get kicked out of OneWorld?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:41 pm

Thomaas wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.


There is a very big difference between what DL did at SEA and the current market situation in MIA. DL had a monopoly and used feed from AS to build their international portfolio out of SEA, and then built a domestic network to feed those flights. It is much easier to build a hub when you have a profitable market to build it around. The verdict is still out about BOS, as JetBlue is still much larger than DL and the "hub" hasn't proven itself so far.

DL at MIA would have no strong-hold, it would have to fight with AA tooth and nail in every single market. AA is a well established player in MIA as well as South America, that was before any partnership with LATAM. DL would unlikely dislodge AA's advantages there, and would most likely result in huge losses. Both airlines are large enough to sustain losses at a hub for quite some time, but you can bet AA would retaliate elsewhere as they have many more aircraft at their disposal.


Is MIA that different from SEA? I don't think so when you incorporate LATAM into the picture (which you have to). DL will have a huge presence to South America through LATAM, so arguably even better than SEA as it gets a stable international network and doesn't have to build it. In addition, DL has European JV flights to LHR, AMS, and CDG - it can build on those. Also, DL did not have a monopoly in SEA for international flights as they already had decent competition and faced an onslaught of TPAC competition as they took on the domestic expansion.

That being said, I don't think DL is going to dethrone AA by any stretch of the imagination. But, you can expect DL to grow and become a decent competitor.

Finally, AA will retaliate, but AA IMO is way off its game so its retaliation will probably fall flat (much like AS's attempt in SLC).
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:16 pm

tphuang wrote:
If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.


The majority of the Caribbean is garbage. That's not to say that there isn't $$$ to be made there, but the Caribbean is not the reason that DL is purchasing an equity stake in LATAM, nor is the Caribbean is not the reason that DL plans on expanding in MIA. DL will be primarily focused on South America and on connecting their network and the networks of their partners to LATAM.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:20 pm

DL747400 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.


The majority of the Caribbean is garbage. That's not to say that there isn't $$$ to be made there, but the Caribbean is not the reason that DL is purchasing an equity stake in LATAM, nor is the Caribbean is not the reason that DL plans on expanding in MIA. DL will be primarily focused on South America and on connecting their network and the networks of their partners to LATAM.


There is a lot of O&D to Caribbean from MIA. If DL invests in South America, it also needs some form of Caribbean presence out of MIA to gain more relevance. Not everything to Caribbean is low yielding leisure stuff.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:27 pm

tphuang wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.


The majority of the Caribbean is garbage. That's not to say that there isn't $$$ to be made there, but the Caribbean is not the reason that DL is purchasing an equity stake in LATAM, nor is the Caribbean is not the reason that DL plans on expanding in MIA. DL will be primarily focused on South America and on connecting their network and the networks of their partners to LATAM.


There is a lot of O&D to Caribbean from MIA. If DL invests in South America, it also needs some form of Caribbean presence out of MIA to gain more relevance. Not everything to Caribbean is low yielding leisure stuff.


I will say it again: The majority of the Caribbean is garbage.

DL has a lot more work to do first which is more important. MIA to/from the Caribbean is not on that list. That is way down the road.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
flyinghippo
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:28 pm

DL's strategy in MIA could follow its strategy in DFW - Start using their A220s as they arrive and focus on business passengers connecting to mid-sized cities in the US with a good product. If there's a city not served by MIA, most of the passengers have the options to connect via ATL (Assuming TAM/DL will dedicate some metal for secondary cities in SA to/from ATL)
 
Sydscott
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:54 pm

Lootess wrote:
Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.


In terms of FOR, REC, MAO and others you could say exactly the same thing about AA who will no doubt now think very carefully about linking these back into MIA. The advantage AA also has is having 50 A321NEO XLR's on order and I can now see where a not insubstantial number of these can be deployed from MIA to maintain their network coverage. So on that score it will be very interesting to see if AA brings forward delivery of some of those to fill in coverage gaps in MIA.
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:07 pm

With LATAM flying to the most important Latin cities will Delta try flying their own planes in parallel to GRU, EZE and SCL from Miami ?
 
dcajet
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:55 am

jfk777 wrote:
With LATAM flying to the most important Latin cities will Delta try flying their own planes in parallel to GRU, EZE and SCL from Miami ?


Per Ed Bastian, during a call on Friday, any changes to the networks would be only once a JV is in place, 18-24 months out.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:03 am

I thought MIA to South America was mostly OD.
If Delta wants to connect Europe with South America, they can route flights from Europe over ATL to South America. No need for MIA. I expect multiple LA flights to/from AT to be announced soon.
 
luckyone
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:05 am

Sydscott wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.


In terms of FOR, REC, MAO and others you could say exactly the same thing about AA who will no doubt now think very carefully about linking these back into MIA. The advantage AA also has is having 50 A321NEO XLR's on order and I can now see where a not insubstantial number of these can be deployed from MIA to maintain their network coverage. So on that score it will be very interesting to see if AA brings forward delivery of some of those to fill in coverage gaps in MIA.

Some folks are putting way too much stock in the A321NEO XLR. For wha benefit it’s worth, Delta has 100 A321NEOs on order it could convert to XLR if it so chose.
 
N212R
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:20 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Hmm, no. More like a global alliance.


The word you're looking for is globalist.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:22 am

DL is not losing $ in SEA.

tphuang wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:


Suddenly the Havana route seems relevant. I think A220-200's and A220-300's and A320's will be in Miami serving Raleigh, Austin, Nashville, San Jose, Seattle, and intra-Florida. The A220's a differentiating product offering not in American's horizon any time soon.


It's a harder battle because unlike at SEA where AS had partners doing their International flying, AA has both a domestic and international hub. And that domestic and international hub has extensive links, and has for decades had extensive links, with virtually everything to the South of it. So while it's true that DL could expand in MIA, it's not like AA is going to sit on its hands while they do it and it's not like AA is not now going to re-plan its international flights to make up for any loss of coverage from LATAM no longer being their Partner. AA also has lots of time to do this with the current deal taking months to unwind everything and with a J/V application at least a year away, maybe more. AA also has lots of MAX-8s and A321NEO's on order which it can use out of MIA.

So overall this throws a bit of a spanner in the works for AA in terms of having to unexpectedly defend an Area they might not have thought vulnerable but it's not like they don't have time to plan a response and an increase of services, which appears likely, to ensure they retain the premier network or any North American carrier.


And AS has done a lot to respond to DL in Seattle, but DL has been willing to stick through all of losses and tough routes. South Florida is the key to Latin America, just like NYC is the primary gateway to Europe. ATL is never going to be the Latin America hub that MIA is. There isn't another city with that amount of O&D to Latin America. If DL wants to really solidify its position in Latin America, it needs to be relevant in MIA.

AA losing Latam at MIA is not a big deal, but DL gaining Latam at MIA is a huge deal. If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.
 
N212R
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:49 am

VictorKilo wrote:
questions wrote:
What does LATAM get from DL that AA was unable to provide? (other than $1.9B)


A JV that can get approved.


The highest court in Chile seems to be supremely enamored with Dealta.
 
TW870
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:15 am

All the hyperbole about DL trying to push American out of Miami is crazy. American's giant network is always going to be worth much more to corporate accounts in Miami than whatever amount of flying Delta adds in. Yes, I think you will see augmented NYC-Miami, BOS-Miami, LAX-Miami, and maybe a flight or two from the focus cities.

What does change is that Delta is much stronger with South America point of sale. The coverage for South Americans to Miami is already there. I see the room for growth at Kennedy and LAX, as the combination of the giant Skymiles customer base in LA and New York with the giant South America point of sale demand to those two regions means that Delta can be much more aggressive in those markets. I think the New York and LA flying is where, over the longer term, you will see more passengers migrate from AA to DL/LA. All of a sudden, LAX-BOG/EZE/GRU, JFK-EZE/GIG (year round) on DL metal become possible with this deal, when they were either marginal, a failure, or impossible in the past.
 
mcogator
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:51 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:38 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.


There is a very big difference between what DL did at SEA and the current market situation in MIA. DL had a monopoly and used feed from AS to build their international portfolio out of SEA, and then built a domestic network to feed those flights. It is much easier to build a hub when you have a profitable market to build it around. The verdict is still out about BOS, as JetBlue is still much larger than DL and the "hub" hasn't proven itself so far.

DL at MIA would have no strong-hold, it would have to fight with AA tooth and nail in every single market. AA is a well established player in MIA as well as South America, that was before any partnership with LATAM. DL would unlikely dislodge AA's advantages there, and would most likely result in huge losses. Both airlines are large enough to sustain losses at a hub for quite some time, but you can bet AA would retaliate elsewhere as they have many more aircraft at their disposal.


Is MIA that different from SEA? I don't think so when you incorporate LATAM into the picture (which you have to). DL will have a huge presence to South America through LATAM, so arguably even better than SEA as it gets a stable international network and doesn't have to build it. In addition, DL has European JV flights to LHR, AMS, and CDG - it can build on those. Also, DL did not have a monopoly in SEA for international flights as they already had decent competition and faced an onslaught of TPAC competition as they took on the domestic expansion.

That being said, I don't think DL is going to dethrone AA by any stretch of the imagination. But, you can expect DL to grow and become a decent competitor.

Finally, AA will retaliate, but AA IMO is way off its game so its retaliation will probably fall flat (much like AS's attempt in SLC).

Seattle household income is double that of Miami. Seattle is also home to 3 Fortune 50 companies, Amazon, Microsoft, and Boeing, while South Florida only has one Fortune 100 company. South Florida does have a lot of retirement money looking to be spent, but DL won't have the business traffic they get in SEA.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3425
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:49 am

luckyone wrote:
Some folks are putting way too much stock in the A321NEO XLR. For wha benefit it’s worth, Delta has 100 A321NEOs on order it could convert to XLR if it so chose.


For what benefit it's worth AA has 120 A321NEO's on order of which 50 are XLR. The benefit for American is that those A321XLR's are a great fit for a number of routes out of MIA that might otherwise need a 757 to hang around. So I don't think it's a matter of putting stock into something because the fact is that AA will definitely have a use for these out of MIA along with other uses from their various East Coast hubs and focus cities.
 
questions
Posts: 2024
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:53 am

mcogator wrote:
Seattle household income is double that of Miami. Seattle is also home to 3 Fortune 50 companies, Amazon, Microsoft, and Boeing, while South Florida only has one Fortune 100 company. South Florida does have a lot of retirement money looking to be spent, but DL won't have the business traffic they get in SEA.


Household income is one measure. Sorry for the brain lapse, but what is the metric for per capital net worth? In other words, household income may be lower in Miami but I’ve always though there’s a boatload of money among some residents, part time residence and visitors.

Also, there used to be an algorithm somewhere online where you could put in your Sky Miles number and a bunch of demographic info, segmentation and customer score would come up. Let’s was obviously trying to determine potential profitability of FF base. I wonder how that compares MIA to SEA.
 
solracfunk14
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:10 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:05 am

1989worstyear wrote:
solracfunk14 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
When did Delta pull out of LAX-GRU?


They started at 2009 and if I'm not mistaken they pull out at 2012.

Korean Air 777 and A330 had better service than the DL 763 (which I enjoy but still a 767).

Hope they comeback with the A339 or A359. I don't like AA on the route and rather go through IAH with United.


Could DL have LATAM put their much younger 767's on that route? I prefer newer 767's quite a bit more in EC than either of the '94 widebody twins.


I don't see as a good idea, because AA is flying the 777's or 787's, that give another level. A330 would be a good fit, neither ceo or neo.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:15 am

solracfunk14 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
solracfunk14 wrote:

They started at 2009 and if I'm not mistaken they pull out at 2012.

Korean Air 777 and A330 had better service than the DL 763 (which I enjoy but still a 767).

Hope they comeback with the A339 or A359. I don't like AA on the route and rather go through IAH with United.


Could DL have LATAM put their much younger 767's on that route? I prefer newer 767's quite a bit more in EC than either of the '94 widebody twins.


I don't see as a good idea, because AA is flying the 777's or 787's, that give another level. A330 would be a good fit, neither ceo or neo.


I see - the 767 is likely too small for the route.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
tphuang
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:50 am

n7371f wrote:
DL is not losing $ in SEA.

tphuang wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

It's a harder battle because unlike at SEA where AS had partners doing their International flying, AA has both a domestic and international hub. And that domestic and international hub has extensive links, and has for decades had extensive links, with virtually everything to the South of it. So while it's true that DL could expand in MIA, it's not like AA is going to sit on its hands while they do it and it's not like AA is not now going to re-plan its international flights to make up for any loss of coverage from LATAM no longer being their Partner. AA also has lots of time to do this with the current deal taking months to unwind everything and with a J/V application at least a year away, maybe more. AA also has lots of MAX-8s and A321NEO's on order which it can use out of MIA.

So overall this throws a bit of a spanner in the works for AA in terms of having to unexpectedly defend an Area they might not have thought vulnerable but it's not like they don't have time to plan a response and an increase of services, which appears likely, to ensure they retain the premier network or any North American carrier.


And AS has done a lot to respond to DL in Seattle, but DL has been willing to stick through all of losses and tough routes. South Florida is the key to Latin America, just like NYC is the primary gateway to Europe. ATL is never going to be the Latin America hub that MIA is. There isn't another city with that amount of O&D to Latin America. If DL wants to really solidify its position in Latin America, it needs to be relevant in MIA.

AA losing Latam at MIA is not a big deal, but DL gaining Latam at MIA is a huge deal. If JV with Latam goes through, DL would be relevant in all the most of the major international markets out of MIA. It would just need to build up Caribbean presence and it can do that slowly.

At best, they are breaking even. Unless you think dl regional has the same unit cost as alaskan air, hard to justify getting lower yield on non hub routes.
 
jagraham
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:31 pm

Thomaas wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Sometimes people on a.net just have a weak memory, and laughed DL off the board when they were going to build a hub in SEA. Look at what is happening in BOS for that matter.

The first DL array into MIA was just trying to use AA's LHR slots which were for the taking in the first place because of the BA JV, they had nothing to lose, the airline was very profitable and still is regardless, and BOS-LHR is still prime-time. Now the idea today seems even better, they don't have to do much. Connect to VS, add some domestic feed. Routes like FOR, REC, and MAO need to make it back on the LATAM+DL JV map in a simple matter that doesn't require backtracking unlike with GOL.


There is a very big difference between what DL did at SEA and the current market situation in MIA. DL had a monopoly and used feed from AS to build their international portfolio out of SEA, and then built a domestic network to feed those flights. It is much easier to build a hub when you have a profitable market to build it around. The verdict is still out about BOS, as JetBlue is still much larger than DL and the "hub" hasn't proven itself so far.

DL at MIA would have no strong-hold, it would have to fight with AA tooth and nail in every single market. AA is a well established player in MIA as well as South America, that was before any partnership with LATAM. DL would unlikely dislodge AA's advantages there, and would most likely result in huge losses. Both airlines are large enough to sustain losses at a hub for quite some time, but you can bet AA would retaliate elsewhere as they have many more aircraft at their disposal.



DL did not originally have an international monopoly in SEA, UA arbitrarily withdrew to focus on SFO. Even then, the SEA flying was inherited from NW and focused on Japan. DL has had to do significant international building, as well as establish domestic flight banks to the top 15 metro areas (except for Texas) and SLC (their one hub which is not in a top 20 city). DL flies nonstop SEA to ORD; they don't even fly nonstop LAX to ORD.

As far as aircraft, DL is now over 900 mainline aircraft. Not much difference. Both DL and AA have hubs to defend and not enough international widebodies; in particular, AA will be hard pressed to backfill LATAM flying in the interim because of the widebody situation.

Nevertheless, MIA is important to AA and of course AA will find ways to defend their claim on MIA. It will be a dogfight.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1575
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:48 pm

Seems like AA isn't going to just sit back at MIA
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... rvice.html
@DadCelo
 
jagraham
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
Seems like AA isn't going to just sit back at MIA
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... rvice.html


You beat me to it!!!

There is already a thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432097

AA didn't wait even a week. The dogfight is on!
 
tcaeyx
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:32 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:21 pm

Not sure if this has already been reported, but LA increased LAX-SCL to daily and JFK-SCL to 10 weekly.

https://www.latam.com/es_cl/prensa/comunicados/LATAM-aumenta-vuelos-entre-Chile-y-Estados-Unidos-para-2020/
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
questions wrote:
MIA and ATL will co-exist and be complementary for DL and LA. LA’s MIA operations will not become weaker. DL will strengthen MIA but not to the extent of AA.

LA flying to ATL will not be a complete joke, especially for non-South Florida connecting traffic.

This will be a thorn in AA’s side. However it’s not the biggest problem facing AA.


Losing AA's huge connecting network, local flyer base, and now having to compete head-to-head with the AA - yep, LA won't be weaker at MIA. *sarcasm off*

Degrading MIA is the biggest gamble for LA. They're cooking the golden goose, and the question is whether the gains elsewhere will make up for that..


I trust that with DL at the helm, all of these issues will be considered and responded to. DL hasn't really made a single misstep since emerging from bankruptcy. DL+LA will never be as big as AA+LA could have been, but that was almost monopolistic. Now DL can be a bigger force in Latin America. And I hope that they will yank the management of LA up a notch or two. Are people impressed by LA's career lately? I am not.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2050
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:47 pm

tphuang wrote:
Unless you think dl regional has the same unit cost as alaskan air, hard to justify getting lower yield on non hub routes.


Looking forward to the day that it's always called by its name...Alaska Airlines.
 
SJPBR
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:23 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
Seems like AA isn't going to just sit back at MIA
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... rvice.html



The return of GRU-MIA daylight
 
gregn21
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:10 pm

tcaeyx wrote:
Not sure if this has already been reported, but LA increased LAX-SCL to daily and JFK-SCL to 10 weekly.

https://www.latam.com/es_cl/prensa/comunicados/LATAM-aumenta-vuelos-entre-Chile-y-Estados-Unidos-para-2020/


This should be the first of several LAX up-gauges. I would expect most LAX expansion will be covered using LA metal, considering DL’s gate constraints at LAX, especially during construction.

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