MSPNWA
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:01 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Because, if you looked on virtually ANY page of this thread, is the quote of Bastian STATING in no uncertain terms of an expansion at MIA. So that is why its a foregone conclusion, because DL said it.


What Ed says and what Ed does can be different things. The stated plan may be a foregone conclusion, but the actual execution isn't. Also some of what has been implied for MIA constitutes timing changes of flights and additional service to DL hubs.

questions wrote:
Yet DL is profitable. DL must believe 1) that it’s JV partners are helping the profitability of the DL network and/or 2) that in the long run it’s partners will be profitable. ROI could come from both.


DL wouldn't do it without #1. #2 isn't well supported by the available evidence. Doesn't appear DL cares much if it's partners are struggling. It will just move on to the next one.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:05 am

SteelChair wrote:
So Delta said they will grow in Miami. There's growth and then there's GROWTH. I see it being marginal growth. A few gates. 10-20 flights a day added incrementally over the next 18 months or so is my guess. Ho hum really.

Another point, perhaps its been mentioned but i feel it should be mentioned again. Delta has been good to its weaker partners. Where was Gol when they first got involved with Delta versus now? Virgin Atlantic? Delta has helped KAL as far back as the 1990s when KAL were crashing every year. LATAM will benefit greatly from its association with Delta.


It should also be mentioned that the nature of these partners you talk about are significantly different - none of them had any other partners that were a better fit for them.

1. KE was already in SkyTeam (they became friends only because RA left) - Neither AA nor UA needed KE to bolster their networks.
2. VS was/is a point-to-point player in the LHR market with scattered partners and no real partner in the US (UA was in bed with BMI for a while and was ignoring VS).
3. AA was partnering with GOL and UA with TAM - GOL's partnership with AA and IB went away with LATAM's decision to join oneworld. DL grabbed G3 it because that was their only foray into the Brazilian market.
4. Both AM and DL were founding members of SkyTeam and were significantly smaller players than AA or UA in the Mexico-US market.

LATAM had as partners, AA (the largest carrier from US to South America), IB (the largest carrier from Europe to South America), QF (the most logical partner in Oceania?), effectively giving it the best traffic flows to all their relevant markets; plus an entire oneworld customer base (being the sole carrier in the region). The partnership with DL essentially brings them out of an alliance which benefitted them the most and risks the leakage of all their FFs they accrued over time leaving them with all but a hope that a JV they hope will be approved and that they will together construct a 'hub' in the market that was most relevant for them (and had a partner earlier?)

I am curious to know how DL's investment in LATAM comparable to any of the above? With LATAM and all of the above partnerships, the common theme is that DL benefits greatly.
Oh yeah, GOL benefitted so greatly, in that they were promoted to the trash bin.
How has WestJet benefitted? All I see them is dropping routes to AA hubs.
How does it benefit MU? The only route that MU was able to add was? ORD.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:16 am

questions wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Another point, perhaps its been mentioned but i feel it should be mentioned again. Delta has been good to its weaker partners. Where was Gol when they first got involved with Delta versus now? Virgin Atlantic? Delta has helped KAL as far back as the 1990s when KAL were crashing every year. LATAM will benefit greatly from its association with Delta.


G3 is still unprofitable
VS is still unprofitable
VA is barely profitable
AM is unprofitable
AF is unprofitable
The jury is still out on KE
KL is profitable but it always was.

DL does not have this great track record you speak of.


Yet DL is profitable. DL must believe 1) that it’s JV partners are helping the profitability of the DL network and/or 2) that in the long run it’s partners will be profitable. ROI could come from both.


Perhaps but that DL influence has yet to manifest itself in the financial results of it's partners.
 
geoshina
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:01 am

onwFan wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

LATAM had as partners, AA (the largest carrier from US to South America), IB (the largest carrier from Europe to South America), QF (the most logical partner in Oceania?), effectively giving it the best traffic flows to all their relevant markets; plus an entire oneworld customer base (being the sole carrier in the region). The partnership with DL essentially brings them out of an alliance which benefitted them the most and risks the leakage of all their FFs they accrued over time leaving them with all but a hope that a JV they hope will be approved and that they will together construct a 'hub' in the market that was most relevant for them (and had a partner earlier?)



As of right now Latam still have agreements with Lufthansa and Swiss. Up until last year, they had agreements with Turkish and South African Airways, if I am not mistaken.
I think Latam won't join an alliance since it will be able to maintain this kind of partnership and others. Much to what happens with Alaska Airlines and GOL.
And I swear I read that the BA / IB agreement with Latam will continue.

Gol under DL and AF/KL currently have agreements with KE / DL / AF / KL / AZ / AC / CM / TP / AR / ET / EY / EK / QR / AT.

By the time Latam leaves Oneworld, Brazil / Chile won't have an airline in any alliance whatsoever.
 
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MatheusLPV
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:03 am

This image has been circulating today ... an A320 from LATAM Brasil with the Delta "Wallpaper" on its IFE Screen ... seems like things are going very fast for LA ....

https://www.instagram.com/p/B3IXNz_hNbH/
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:32 am

onwFan wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
So Delta said they will grow in Miami. There's growth and then there's GROWTH. I see it being marginal growth. A few gates. 10-20 flights a day added incrementally over the next 18 months or so is my guess. Ho hum really.

Another point, perhaps its been mentioned but i feel it should be mentioned again. Delta has been good to its weaker partners. Where was Gol when they first got involved with Delta versus now? Virgin Atlantic? Delta has helped KAL as far back as the 1990s when KAL were crashing every year. LATAM will benefit greatly from its association with Delta.


It should also be mentioned that the nature of these partners you talk about are significantly different - none of them had any other partners that were a better fit for them.

1. KE was already in SkyTeam (they became friends only because RA left) - Neither AA nor UA needed KE to bolster their networks.
2. VS was/is a point-to-point player in the LHR market with scattered partners and no real partner in the US (UA was in bed with BMI for a while and was ignoring VS).
3. AA was partnering with GOL and UA with TAM - GOL's partnership with AA and IB went away with LATAM's decision to join oneworld. DL grabbed G3 it because that was their only foray into the Brazilian market.
4. Both AM and DL were founding members of SkyTeam and were significantly smaller players than AA or UA in the Mexico-US market.

LATAM had as partners, AA (the largest carrier from US to South America), IB (the largest carrier from Europe to South America), QF (the most logical partner in Oceania?), effectively giving it the best traffic flows to all their relevant markets; plus an entire oneworld customer base (being the sole carrier in the region). The partnership with DL essentially brings them out of an alliance which benefitted them the most and risks the leakage of all their FFs they accrued over time leaving them with all but a hope that a JV they hope will be approved and that they will together construct a 'hub' in the market that was most relevant for them (and had a partner earlier?)

I am curious to know how DL's investment in LATAM comparable to any of the above? With LATAM and all of the above partnerships, the common theme is that DL benefits greatly.
Oh yeah, GOL benefitted so greatly, in that they were promoted to the trash bin.
How has WestJet benefitted? All I see them is dropping routes to AA hubs.
How does it benefit MU? The only route that MU was able to add was? ORD.


Totally agree with your post. LATAM will really miss the tie up with Oneworld and DL's tie up will do nothing to offset this. The tie up with BA/IB plus QF's one, used to give them plenty of coverage between Europe and Australia/NZ. The AA tie up gave them plenty of connections in US.

DL cannot offer this. Even if, as it may likely happen sooner or later, LATAM joins Sky Service, it may get a good tie up with AF/KL but there's nothing on the TPAC area for them since they will lose QF and NZ is on Star Alliance anyway.

Then comes the fact that DL is taking away their A350s anbd probably dumpingon them any old metal they might have with the time. Those B77Ws need replacing and were in line for it. NOw a refurbshiment the most. And some people here evenm post that LATAM's service is found wanting compared to DL's and that it needs to pick up - how???

Add the certaininty that GOL will end up replacing them on all agreements with AA and the rest of Oneworld and LATAM will certinaly be up against it on the Brazilian market plus the possibility of GOL to expand their South American Network and compete on that ground too.

LATAM owuld have done much better getting a better tie in with Qatar Airways if their AA JV was doomed to fail.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:36 am

geoshina wrote:
onwFan wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

LATAM had as partners, AA (the largest carrier from US to South America), IB (the largest carrier from Europe to South America), QF (the most logical partner in Oceania?), effectively giving it the best traffic flows to all their relevant markets; plus an entire oneworld customer base (being the sole carrier in the region). The partnership with DL essentially brings them out of an alliance which benefitted them the most and risks the leakage of all their FFs they accrued over time leaving them with all but a hope that a JV they hope will be approved and that they will together construct a 'hub' in the market that was most relevant for them (and had a partner earlier?)



As of right now Latam still have agreements with Lufthansa and Swiss. Up until last year, they had agreements with Turkish and South African Airways, if I am not mistaken.
I think Latam won't join an alliance since it will be able to maintain this kind of partnership and others. Much to what happens with Alaska Airlines and GOL.
And I swear I read that the BA / IB agreement with Latam will continue.

Gol under DL and AF/KL currently have agreements with KE / DL / AF / KL / AZ / AC / CM / TP / AR / ET / EY / EK / QR / AT.

By the time Latam leaves Oneworld, Brazil / Chile won't have an airline in any alliance whatsoever.


Those agreements will definitely go. since LATAM has now gone to bed with a direct competitor, AA will pick up GOL to counter - just natural. Once it does, it is obvious GOL will replace LATAM as the OW carrier in South America and LATAM wll have to compete with BA/IB in Europe plus VS in LHR.

With DL picking up LATAM and AA taking GOL (it WILL happen), then GOL will exit those agreements with the Sky Services airlines.

I expect LATAM to join Sky Service straight once the formalization on of the DL deal. I would be surprised if GOL does not join OneWorld round the same time - or even before.

As for the LATAM and BA/IB agreement continuing - where's your source? I am quite sure there will be none. Even if there are - changes will come
 
Thibault973
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:17 am

usflyer msp wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Another point, perhaps its been mentioned but i feel it should be mentioned again. Delta has been good to its weaker partners. Where was Gol when they first got involved with Delta versus now? Virgin Atlantic? Delta has helped KAL as far back as the 1990s when KAL were crashing every year. LATAM will benefit greatly from its association with Delta.


G3 is still unprofitable
VS is still unprofitable
VA is barely profitable
AM is unprofitable
AF is unprofitable
The jury is still out on KE
KL is profitable but it always was.

DL does not have this great track record you speak of.


Now hold on, AF is profitable, and has been for the past 2 years (both AF and TO are profitable while A5 is bleeding money).
KLM hasnt "always been profitable", they've been so since 2013.
And while G3 did post a small lose in 2018, they are actually doing better than LA in Brazil, in fact, LA is the only one of the big 3 G3/LA/AD that lost money this past quarter (they lost 50 millions USD when G3 made 15 millions and AD 83).

plus, I remember reading an article circa 2007 that said AF, G3 and VA were the most profitable airlines in the world at the time ;) ;)
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:37 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
As for the LATAM and BA/IB agreement continuing - where's your source? I am quite sure there will be none. Even if there are - changes will come

This article is about the QF relationship but includes a quote from LA's conference last Friday saying they'll keep their links with other OW airlines besides AA.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/ ... -oneworld/
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm

Sightseer wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
As for the LATAM and BA/IB agreement continuing - where's your source? I am quite sure there will be none. Even if there are - changes will come

This article is about the QF relationship but includes a quote from LA's conference last Friday saying they'll keep their links with other OW airlines besides AA.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/ ... -oneworld/


Roberto Alvo said that "other tie-ups were LIKELY to remain in place for the FORESEEABLE FUTURE" - In corporate language, this means... "we will keep this way until we have another decision and/or are forced to change".

My views do continue to stand but thanks for pointing this out.
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:10 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Roberto Alvo said that "other tie-ups were LIKELY to remain in place for the FORESEEABLE FUTURE"

No, those are the author's words. In the paragraph directly below that, Alvo said "We will keep our current bilateral agreements with all the other carriers in oneworld." Sure, the rest of OW may not, but I think it's likely they'll want to continue partnering with the largest carrier in South America by far.

Anyway, you have your source now and are free to make of it what you want.
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:19 pm

What is LATAM going to do in Australia, not their largest market but they fly to both Sydney and Melbourne with 787's. Will they stay with Qantas or go to Virgin Australia ? At the Aussie end changing would still offer good connections, but VA doesn't fly to Latin America so they would lose the Qantas connections at the Santiago end. Switching away from Oneworld brings consequences on all three continents LATAM flies to from South America.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:26 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
questions wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

G3 is still unprofitable
VS is still unprofitable
VA is barely profitable
AM is unprofitable
AF is unprofitable
The jury is still out on KE
KL is profitable but it always was.

DL does not have this great track record you speak of.


Yet DL is profitable. DL must believe 1) that it’s JV partners are helping the profitability of the DL network and/or 2) that in the long run it’s partners will be profitable. ROI could come from both.


Perhaps but that DL influence has yet to manifest itself in the financial results of it's partners.


We must compare the current profitability to what might have happened without Delta involvement. Some of those carriers may not even have survived. Virgin for example. The struggling carriers get a lifeline, time to continue to adapt, and Delta gets its network strengthened with more destinations, casting a wider net for customers.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:30 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Because, if you looked on virtually ANY page of this thread, is the quote of Bastian STATING in no uncertain terms of an expansion at MIA. So that is why its a foregone conclusion, because DL said it.


What Ed says and what Ed does can be different things. The stated plan may be a foregone conclusion, but the actual execution isn't. Also some of what has been implied for MIA constitutes timing changes of flights and additional service to DL hubs.

questions wrote:
Yet DL is profitable. DL must believe 1) that it’s JV partners are helping the profitability of the DL network and/or 2) that in the long run it’s partners will be profitable. ROI could come from both.


DL wouldn't do it without #1. #2 isn't well supported by the available evidence. Doesn't appear DL cares much if it's partners are struggling. It will just move on to the next one.


Regarding your very last 2 sentences.....eh, no.

Whom for instance would you move on to from Virgin? Who else has the essential LHR access and is not already tied to a competitor? How long has Delta been tied up with AF and KAL? More than 20 years for KAL? Almost that long for AF? They haven't exactly moved on from those carriers have they?

They've actually "cared" so much about making their partners profitable that they have incurred the wrath of ALPA on scope grounds.
Last edited by SteelChair on Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
questions wrote:

Yet DL is profitable. DL must believe 1) that it’s JV partners are helping the profitability of the DL network and/or 2) that in the long run it’s partners will be profitable. ROI could come from both.


Perhaps but that DL influence has yet to manifest itself in the financial results of it's partners.


We must compare the current profitability to what might have happened without Delta involvement. Some of those carriers may not even have survived. Virgin for example. The struggling carriers get a lifeline, time to continue to adapt, and Delta gets its network strengthened with more destinations, casting a wider net for customers.


Problem is, we will never know what would have happened without the DL involvement. We do know that these carriers are still unprofitable with the DL involvement. It seems like most of the benefit goes to DL not to the struggling partner - that is hardly being good.
 
geoshina
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
geoshina wrote:
onwFan wrote:



As of right now Latam still have agreements with Lufthansa and Swiss. Up until last year, they had agreements with Turkish and South African Airways, if I am not mistaken.
I think Latam won't join an alliance since it will be able to maintain this kind of partnership and others. Much to what happens with Alaska Airlines and GOL.
And I swear I read that the BA / IB agreement with Latam will continue.

Gol under DL and AF/KL currently have agreements with KE / DL / AF / KL / AZ / AC / CM / TP / AR / ET / EY / EK / QR / AT.

By the time Latam leaves Oneworld, Brazil / Chile won't have an airline in any alliance whatsoever.


Those agreements will definitely go. since LATAM has now gone to bed with a direct competitor, AA will pick up GOL to counter - just natural. Once it does, it is obvious GOL will replace LATAM as the OW carrier in South America and LATAM wll have to compete with BA/IB in Europe plus VS in LHR.

With DL picking up LATAM and AA taking GOL (it WILL happen), then GOL will exit those agreements with the Sky Services airlines.

I expect LATAM to join Sky Service straight once the formalization on of the DL deal. I would be surprised if GOL does not join OneWorld round the same time - or even before.

As for the LATAM and BA/IB agreement continuing - where's your source? I am quite sure there will be none. Even if there are - changes will come


Right now if you are a top tier Gol FF you get some perks while flying Delta, and you may use some of the DL / AF / KL lounges. While you can redeem miles from Gol to fly Korean or Alitalia or Aerolineas Argentinas, you do not have any benefits while being top tier Gol FF. Being a Gol FF is useless outside DL/AF/KL and G3 itself. So I dunno if Latam will enter the Sky Service. I think Delta will do the exact same thing as they did with Gol.

We also have to remember that Delta has acquired 20% of Latam. 20%. I think Delta will want to get all the benefits that Latam may offer from USA - South America. Now Latam also have to come up and keep their own strategies in Europe. That's why I think the link with Iberia will not end. And the ties between Latam and the LH groups still amazes me even to this day. Plus the 10% that is owned by Qatar.

Also as far as I can see the AF / KL group are pretty happy with their G3 partnership. The Fortaleza hub seems to be a right move for them.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:09 am

In an interview with Brazilian media, Ed Bastian would not provide details but says it was not Delta that approached LATAM. He says the whole deal came together in under 2-months. He also says Delta wants the Cueto family and its executives remaining as the main shareholders of the group.

https://www.panrotas.com.br/aviacao/emp ... 68163.html
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:08 am

Sightseer wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Roberto Alvo said that "other tie-ups were LIKELY to remain in place for the FORESEEABLE FUTURE"

No, those are the author's words. In the paragraph directly below that, Alvo said "We will keep our current bilateral agreements with all the other carriers in oneworld." Sure, the rest of OW may not, but I think it's likely they'll want to continue partnering with the largest carrier in South America by far.

Anyway, you have your source now and are free to make of it what you want.


Time will tell. DL's tie up is expected to take 12-24 months to come to fruition but I am sure it will spell the end of LATAM's OW collaboration. It might start happening one way or another when DL sells their 9% on GOL. If AA buys is and tie up with them (GOL), you may see it unravelling.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:47 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Roberto Alvo said that "other tie-ups were LIKELY to remain in place for the FORESEEABLE FUTURE"

No, those are the author's words. In the paragraph directly below that, Alvo said "We will keep our current bilateral agreements with all the other carriers in oneworld." Sure, the rest of OW may not, but I think it's likely they'll want to continue partnering with the largest carrier in South America by far.

Anyway, you have your source now and are free to make of it what you want.


Time will tell. DL's tie up is expected to take 12-24 months to come to fruition but I am sure it will spell the end of LATAM's OW collaboration. It might start happening one way or another when DL sells their 9% on GOL. If AA buys is and tie up with them (GOL), you may see it unravelling.

As DL integrates with LATAM, I wonder if the next move is for AF/KLM to buy a stake of LATAM.

The Alliances worked, but JVs produce far more profit potential. I see a slow unraveling.

Lightsaber
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spinotter
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
No, those are the author's words. In the paragraph directly below that, Alvo said "We will keep our current bilateral agreements with all the other carriers in oneworld." Sure, the rest of OW may not, but I think it's likely they'll want to continue partnering with the largest carrier in South America by far.

Anyway, you have your source now and are free to make of it what you want.


Time will tell. DL's tie up is expected to take 12-24 months to come to fruition but I am sure it will spell the end of LATAM's OW collaboration. It might start happening one way or another when DL sells their 9% on GOL. If AA buys is and tie up with them (GOL), you may see it unravelling.

As DL integrates with LATAM, I wonder if the next move is for AF/KLM to buy a stake of LATAM.

The Alliances worked, but JVs produce far more profit potential. I see a slow unraveling.

Lightsaber


Unraveling of the alliances, you mean, to be replaced by JV's with DL/AF/KL/KE in the drivers' seats for Skyteam and similarly for the other US3? Seems very possible to me. Maybe even dissolution of the alliances, eventually.
 
OB1504
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:23 pm

gregn21 wrote:
Why is DL expansion at MIA such a foregone conclusion? Considering the larger DL presence at FLL, I suspect they have considered moving LATAM ops from MIA to FLL. It would be easier to expand DL ops at FLL than MIA and there is already way more existing feed. Not to mention, there is quite a bit more room for gate expansion at FLL than at MIA. The way I see it, distributing LATAM's MIA ops between ATL and FLL for connections and South Florida O&D respectively makes the most sense in this situation.


That’s not happening.

Premium international traffic overwhelmingly prefers MIA.

FLL doesn’t have the space to accommodate LATAM’s operation anyway. I don’t know what room for gate expansion you’re talking about when Delta has planes remaining overnight in the alleys behind other parked planes on T2 because there aren’t enough gates.

Meanwhile at MIA, DL and LA are already co-located and there are plenty of open narrowbody gates left.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:08 am

I wouldn't rule out QF not allying with LATAM once LATAM leaves oneworld. Keep in mind that QF (oneworld) and MU (SkyTeam) have an Australia to China JV.
 
panamair
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:33 am

People need to get off this notion that those global alliances are still in the driver's seat in terms of agreements and alliances. Delta is not going to force LATAM to sign agreements with anyone in SkyTeam. Delta doesn't think enough of Skyteam to tell or persuade any airline it has invested in to take up with another Skyteam carrier if the carriers don't see fit; Delta has never forced GOL or Virgin Atlantic to join Skyteam and those carriers have found it better to maintain separate bilateral relationships with airlines that benefit them. Same will go for LATAM - that's precisely why they have chosen to not join Skyteam after leaving oneworld - so that they can maintain the alliances and relationships that they want and find beneficial. If the QF and IB agreements are beneficial to LATAM, they will continue to maintain them; if LATAM feels that AF-KL would help, they can even pursue a separate agreement with AF-KL without getting out of the IB relationship - that's the beauty of not being forced to follow the restrictive rules of the global alliances.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:25 am

Airline Weekly had long analysis about DL-LATAM deal had a few interesting insights.

> Strategically LATAM liked idea of forming JV with AA, the strongest U.S. player to region, but when Chile Supreme Court killed the deal the airline faced tough choice. Either a neutered far less valuable agreement with AA, or look elsewhere.
> LATAM is 14th largest airline in world in enplanements - 69mil carried on 2018.
> Has roughly 40% marketshare on travelers within South America. Strong distribution within region
> Largest loyalty program on the continent with ~30m members. Will help make SkyMiles more attractive and known.
> Within 2 years DL expects to generate $200mil annual synergy savings with LATAM - ground handling, maintenance, joint procurement
> Of $8.0Bil South America-USA market in 2018, LATAM generated $1.6bil
> AW believes LATAM faces same though choice being left with a restricted JV with IAG. Sees them looking hard at other partners like AF/KL/VS.
> Gol did virtually nothing for DL outside of Brazil, and even then it lacked key product sought by DL corporate clients like premium cabins, widespread airport lounges
> Aeromexico has great opportunity to plug in network coverage between DL-LATAM.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:48 am

lightsaber wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
No, those are the author's words. In the paragraph directly below that, Alvo said "We will keep our current bilateral agreements with all the other carriers in oneworld." Sure, the rest of OW may not, but I think it's likely they'll want to continue partnering with the largest carrier in South America by far.

Anyway, you have your source now and are free to make of it what you want.


Time will tell. DL's tie up is expected to take 12-24 months to come to fruition but I am sure it will spell the end of LATAM's OW collaboration. It might start happening one way or another when DL sells their 9% on GOL. If AA buys is and tie up with them (GOL), you may see it unravelling.

As DL integrates with LATAM, I wonder if the next move is for AF/KLM to buy a stake of LATAM.

The Alliances worked, but JVs produce far more profit potential. I see a slow unraveling.

Lightsaber


This is a very good point. A tie up of this mature would further AF/KL's presence in Sout America just as it would do with DL's.

The question I have is whether this might not imply on a reduction of LATAM's operations away from South America. I, for example, do not see LATAM's adding flights to AMS and would even expect a review of their schedules on CDG, for example.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 234
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:13 am

LAXintl wrote:
Airline Weekly had long analysis about DL-LATAM deal had a few interesting insights.


> Gol did virtually nothing for DL outside of Brazil, and even then it lacked key product sought by DL corporate clients like premium cabins, widespread airport lounges


Yet G3 is by far the #1 domestic carrier for corparate travellers, LA only coming in 3rd place, after AD.
 
MCTSET
Posts: 103
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:51 am

Guys this thread is really long and developed very quickly, so unfortunately I don't have the time to read through it and see if this topic is mentioned.

How will QR react to this acquisition by DL, QR will have a smaller stake, and with LA leaving one world which didn't mean much to QR anyway do you think they will continue to hold their stake?
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:29 pm

Prost wrote:
What is the largest investment of one airline by another? I imagine this is up there, but I’m frequently surprised when people mention some of the cross ownerships out there.


Did not see that anyone else has answered your question as of yet.

:arrow: DL owns 49% of VS

:arrow: DL owns 49% of AM
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Lootess
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:46 pm

MCTSET wrote:
Guys this thread is really long and developed very quickly, so unfortunately I don't have the time to read through it and see if this topic is mentioned.

How will QR react to this acquisition by DL, QR will have a smaller stake, and with LA leaving one world which didn't mean much to QR anyway do you think they will continue to hold their stake?


Considering Delta works with Etihad today on Alitalia and Virgin Australia matters, and Al Baker has his own problems with QR losing money now, probably not much. Even though he doesn't like Delta, he doesn't like Oneworld much either.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:01 am

DL747400 wrote:
Prost wrote:
What is the largest investment of one airline by another? I imagine this is up there, but I’m frequently surprised when people mention some of the cross ownerships out there.


Did not see that anyone else has answered your question as of yet.

:arrow: DL owns 49% of VS

:arrow: DL owns 49% of AM


Based on DL's stake in AF-KL, I would actually say that DL is the majority owner of VS.

Back to the article...the only route on which LATAM and Delta both fly is GRU-JFK. No overlap elsewhere. However, I could see in a JV LATAM ceding some flying to Delta, possibly MIA to secondary Brazil (where LATAM would fly a narrow-body today) as well as to MCO...with DL ending GRU-JFK on its own metal. (LATAM a while back moved up the return JFK-GRU flight for better connections there.)

MCTSET wrote:
Guys this thread is really long and developed very quickly, so unfortunately I don't have the time to read through it and see if this topic is mentioned.

How will QR react to this acquisition by DL, QR will have a smaller stake, and with LA leaving one world which didn't mean much to QR anyway do you think they will continue to hold their stake?


One of the side deals may also see QR having to hand over two A359s (in LATAM livery) to DL as four existing planes were included (two in service and two in final assembly) plus 10 A35Ks in the order book.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:15 pm

And all of a sudden, this:

https://financial-news.co.uk/gol-airlines-phases-out-codeshare-with-delta-2019100806/

Let's talk about retaliation?
My backyard is greener than yours?
The ball is mine?
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2889
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:23 pm

ojjunior wrote:
And all of a sudden, this:

https://financial-news.co.uk/gol-airlines-phases-out-codeshare-with-delta-2019100806/

Let's talk about retaliation?
My backyard is greener than yours?
The ball is mine?


DL had already told GOL that they are out.
 
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DL747400
Posts: 722
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:48 pm

ojjunior wrote:
And all of a sudden, this:

https://financial-news.co.uk/gol-airlines-phases-out-codeshare-with-delta-2019100806/

Let's talk about retaliation?
My backyard is greener than yours?
The ball is mine?


:arrow: DL has already publicly said that they would sell their stake in GOL and invest in LATAM instead.
:arrow: DL cannot begin codeshareing with LATAM while the codeshare with GOL is still active, or even as it is winding down.
:arrow: DL has already said that they plan to begin codesharing with LATAM before the the end of 2019.

The announcement by GOL sounded very respectful and formal, IMO. Why does this strike you as retaliation when this must come to pass before everyone can move forward? To most observers, this appears to be a logical next step so that all parties involved can begin to move forward. Nothing more, nothing less.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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Lootess
Posts: 168
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:16 pm

DL747400 wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
And all of a sudden, this:

https://financial-news.co.uk/gol-airlines-phases-out-codeshare-with-delta-2019100806/

Let's talk about retaliation?
My backyard is greener than yours?
The ball is mine?


:arrow: DL has already publicly said that they would sell their stake in GOL and invest in LATAM instead.
:arrow: DL cannot begin codeshareing with LATAM while the codeshare with GOL is still active, or even as it is winding down.
:arrow: DL has already said that they plan to begin cGuesodesharing with LATAM before the the end of 2019.

The announcement by GOL sounded very respectful and formal, IMO. Why does this strike you as retaliation when this must come to pass before everyone can move forward?


They obviously never saw this Delta-GOL video back in 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyCIMJw0I-o
 
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DL747400
Posts: 722
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:33 pm

Lootess wrote:
They obviously never saw this Delta-GOL video back in 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyCIMJw0I-o


Great video! Thanks for sharing. Having flown GOL 4 times throughout the DL/GOL partnership, I can honestly say that all of my experiences with them were very positive and I will miss them. I wish GOL and LATAM only the very best.

Clearly LATAM brings DL the entirety of the South American continent, so there is a great deal more potential growth than with GOL alone.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 105
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:38 pm

One question and one semi-question:
1) The big hoopla but debunked myth that passengers would not be accomodated between AA and Latam concerns existing reservations/itineraries booked but yet-to- be-flown. Codeshares to my understanding between the two have ended so any new reservations originating from Latam would not be offered AA metal and vic a versa. So I am wondering, in the interim, what happens to connecting passengers in the lull of a new codeshare deal, as Delta-Latam codeshares don't exist yet? Must Latam passengers buy two separate tickets when traveling, for example, beyond Miami?

2) I don't think this happened since Delta and Latam saw the true meaning in the partnership, but I was wondering if Latam during deal negotiations made it seem they were talking to American for Delta to reach to 2.25 billion.(?) Nonetheless, I am sure it was always implied by Delta having their hand in the AA cookie jar!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5847
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:52 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
One question and one semi-question:
1) The big hoopla but debunked myth that passengers would not be accomodated between AA and Latam concerns existing reservations/itineraries booked but yet-to- be-flown. Codeshares to my understanding between the two have ended so any new reservations originating from Latam would not be offered AA metal and vic a versa. So I am wondering, in the interim, what happens to connecting passengers in the lull of a new codeshare deal, as Delta-Latam codeshares don't exist yet? Must Latam passengers buy two separate tickets when traveling, for example, beyond Miami?


Hundreds of thousands of people travel on interline tickets in the absence of codesharing every day. U.S. DOT rules govern baggage allowances for itins starting or enduing in the U.S. The more useful question is when will DL fare rules give thru-fare pricing with LATAM segments.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
One question and one semi-question:
1) The big hoopla but debunked myth that passengers would not be accomodated between AA and Latam concerns existing reservations/itineraries booked but yet-to- be-flown. Codeshares to my understanding between the two have ended so any new reservations originating from Latam would not be offered AA metal and vic a versa. So I am wondering, in the interim, what happens to connecting passengers in the lull of a new codeshare deal, as Delta-Latam codeshares don't exist yet? Must Latam passengers buy two separate tickets when traveling, for example, beyond Miami?


Hundreds of thousands of people travel on interline tickets in the absence of codesharing every day. U.S. DOT rules govern baggage allowances for itins starting or enduing in the U.S. The more useful question is when will DL fare rules give thru-fare pricing with LATAM segments.


Got it. So thru-fare pricing with Latam segments really is first priority before codeshares or at least of same importance. And can Latam favor Delta over any other carrier for inquiring Latam passengers looking for options?
 
N212R
Posts: 217
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:24 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Strategically LATAM liked idea of forming JV with AA, the strongest U.S. player to region, but when Chile Supreme Court killed the deal the airline faced tough choice.


What was the reasoning behind the Court ruling against this "venture"?
 
dcajet
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:55 pm

N212R wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Strategically LATAM liked idea of forming JV with AA, the strongest U.S. player to region, but when Chile Supreme Court killed the deal the airline faced tough choice.


What was the reasoning behind the Court ruling against this "venture"?


The combined LA & AA JV would have given them pretty much full dominance on the SCL-MIA route, since no other airline flies it. They would have full control on pricing and capacity to the most sought after destination in the US from Chile. Not good for the traveler. Actually, the Supreme Court did not kill the deal, they just put so many caveats to it that the JV was deemed to be worthless by both LA & AA (and IAG).
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dcajet
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:00 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
They obviously never saw this Delta-GOL video back in 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyCIMJw0I-o


Great video! Thanks for sharing. Having flown GOL 4 times throughout the DL/GOL partnership, I can honestly say that all of my experiences with them were very positive and I will miss them. I wish GOL and LATAM only the very best.

Clearly LATAM brings DL the entirety of the South American continent, so there is a great deal more potential growth than with GOL alone.


And the fact that the GOL partnership never did much for Delta outside of Brazil. And even in Brazil it lacked what DL's corporate clients want from their travel experience: a premium product on board (premium cabins) and on the ground (a solid network of premium lounges).
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
OB1504
Posts: 3680
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:51 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Back to the article...the only route on which LATAM and Delta both fly is GRU-JFK. No overlap elsewhere. However, I could see in a JV LATAM ceding some flying to Delta, possibly MIA to secondary Brazil (where LATAM would fly a narrow-body today) as well as to MCO...with DL ending GRU-JFK on its own metal. (LATAM a while back moved up the return JFK-GRU flight for better connections there.)


I would prefer to see Delta take over the MIA-secondary Brazil routes from LATAM because their narrowbody product is leagues ahead of what LA is offering.
 
SJPBR
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:49 pm

OB1504 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Back to the article...the only route on which LATAM and Delta both fly is GRU-JFK. No overlap elsewhere. However, I could see in a JV LATAM ceding some flying to Delta, possibly MIA to secondary Brazil (where LATAM would fly a narrow-body today) as well as to MCO...with DL ending GRU-JFK on its own metal. (LATAM a while back moved up the return JFK-GRU flight for better connections there.)


I would prefer to see Delta take over the MIA-secondary Brazil routes from LATAM because their narrowbody product is leagues ahead of what LA is offering.



There is only one flight MIA-Brazil on narrowbody. It is MIA-MAO and AA also serves with a A319.
 
geoshina
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:18 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:33 pm

dcajet wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
They obviously never saw this Delta-GOL video back in 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyCIMJw0I-o


Great video! Thanks for sharing. Having flown GOL 4 times throughout the DL/GOL partnership, I can honestly say that all of my experiences with them were very positive and I will miss them. I wish GOL and LATAM only the very best.

Clearly LATAM brings DL the entirety of the South American continent, so there is a great deal more potential growth than with GOL alone.


And the fact that the GOL partnership never did much for Delta outside of Brazil. And even in Brazil it lacked what DL's corporate clients want from their travel experience: a premium product on board (premium cabins) and on the ground (a solid network of premium lounges).


No brazilian carrier offer a premium cabin onboard their aircraft when flying domestically. After the Delta takeover G3 has improved their overall quality. Either by having more spacious seats upfront (something that Latam is still dreaming of) or by having domestic lounges either in GRU and in GIG, whereas Latam only has a lounge in GRU.

Latam do fly some of their widebody domestically (GRU-MAO; GRU-FOR as far as I can remember) but it is only a better and more spacious seat.

It is a fact that Gol offers a more pleasanta experience than Latam.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25751
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:37 pm

SJPBR wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Back to the article...the only route on which LATAM and Delta both fly is GRU-JFK. No overlap elsewhere. However, I could see in a JV LATAM ceding some flying to Delta, possibly MIA to secondary Brazil (where LATAM would fly a narrow-body today) as well as to MCO...with DL ending GRU-JFK on its own metal. (LATAM a while back moved up the return JFK-GRU flight for better connections there.)


I would prefer to see Delta take over the MIA-secondary Brazil routes from LATAM because their narrowbody product is leagues ahead of what LA is offering.



There is only one flight MIA-Brazil on narrowbody. It is MIA-MAO and AA also serves with a A319.


MIA-BEL also flown with an A320.
a.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 2884
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:15 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
SJPBR wrote:
OB1504 wrote:

I would prefer to see Delta take over the MIA-secondary Brazil routes from LATAM because their narrowbody product is leagues ahead of what LA is offering.



There is only one flight MIA-Brazil on narrowbody. It is MIA-MAO and AA also serves with a A319.


MIA-BEL also flown with an A320.


Many of those wide-body flights are also flown sub-daily. With narrow-bodies, be they B739s or A21Ns when they arrive, they could be deployed to Brazil.
 
TWA85
Posts: 347
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:35 pm

What's the possibility Gol, Viva Air, and Sky Airline could create their own alliance to better compete with LATAM and Avianca? Viva and Sky combined have 100 aircraft on order. That is evidence that the two have big growth ambitions. The three airline groups combined would have a strong presence in Brazil, Chile, Colombia, and Peru. They could leverage each other's resources such as frequent flyer programs, marketing teams, slots, and facilities, etc. to grow their networks within South America and become stronger competitors against LATAM and Avianca.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:40 am

TWA85 wrote:
What's the possibility Gol, Viva Air, and Sky Airline could create their own alliance to better compete with LATAM and Avianca? Viva and Sky combined have 100 aircraft on order. That is evidence that the two have big growth ambitions. The three airline groups combined would have a strong presence in Brazil, Chile, Colombia, and Peru. They could leverage each other's resources such as frequent flyer programs, marketing teams, slots, and facilities, etc. to grow their networks within South America and become stronger competitors against LATAM and Avianca.

In no other field - neither business nor politics - has Latin America ever tried, let alone been successful, at cooperation between several of its countries. But, hey...some time must be the first time, right?
 
dcajet
Posts: 4117
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:18 am

TWA85 wrote:
What's the possibility Gol, Viva Air, and Sky Airline could create their own alliance to better compete with LATAM and Avianca? Viva and Sky combined have 100 aircraft on order. That is evidence that the two have big growth ambitions. The three airline groups combined would have a strong presence in Brazil, Chile, Colombia, and Peru. They could leverage each other's resources such as frequent flyer programs, marketing teams, slots, and facilities, etc. to grow their networks within South America and become stronger competitors against LATAM and Avianca.


Well, isn't LATAM the living example of what you are proposing, taken a step further?
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Floridian
Posts: 1
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Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:20 am

Those that question Delta in MIA are going to be surprised. Delta has been flying to Miami more than 75 years! Longer than any other airline. They are deeply entrenched in Florida and fly to more cities than any other airline. EYW/MIA/FLL/PBI/RSW/SRQ/TPA/MCO/MLB/DAB/JAX/GNV/TLH/ECP/VPS/PNS.... nobody has more Florida coverage. With Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico partnerships think we'll see more flights to come with LATAM in MIA. AA will get a real run for the money. LATAM surely will increase in DL hubs ATL and JFK too.

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