tphuang
Posts: 3513
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:20 pm

SteelChair wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL has made some SEC filings to issue notes: $900 million at 2.986% due 10/28/2024, $600 million at 3.799% due 10/28/2029.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 4fc4ed.pdf


So thats equivalent to what, like 3 months earnings at the rate Delta is scooping up cash? They can pay off the entire LATAM 20% acquisition with less than 6 months worth of earnings.

They still need to pay back the principal also.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:20 pm

EddieDude wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Delta plans to acquire four A350-900 from LATAM’s fleet, and take delivery of 10 more A350’s on order. Latam will keep nine A350 planes. The 10 A350 aircraft on order, two A350-900, and eight A350-1000, are scheduled to be delivered late 2020 through 2025.

I wonder if DL will convert those eight A35Ks on order to A359s. I have the impression that DL's management had concluded that their business model is best served by the A359 and 772 as the largest aircraft in their fleet. I could see some DL routes (LHR, AMS, CDG, ICN from some of their hubs... maybe GRU from JFK/ATL too following the effectiveness of the JBA with LATAM) where an A35K might make sense, but I also think DL is very careful about their yield management, so it is a bit of a mystery what they will do regarding those A35Ks.


I think DL could use some bigger aircraft. UA has planes with 60 J seats. While I agree DL is conservative, can the gap between business demand on UA and DL be that much? Seems like JFK-LHR and JFK-CDG could use bigger J cabins.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6184
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:33 pm

SteelChair wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL has made some SEC filings to issue notes: $900 million at 2.986% due 10/28/2024, $600 million at 3.799% due 10/28/2029.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 4fc4ed.pdf


So thats equivalent to what, like 3 months earnings at the rate Delta is scooping up cash? They can pay off the entire LATAM 20% acquisition with less than 6 months worth of earnings.


They could if they had no other uses for earnings. They're getting ~82 new aircraft this year and have pledged a significant fraction of earnings to be returned to shareholders via share buybacks and dividends.

It's still borrowing $1.5 Billion.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6184
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:37 pm

tphuang wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL has made some SEC filings to issue notes: $900 million at 2.986% due 10/28/2024, $600 million at 3.799% due 10/28/2029.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 4fc4ed.pdf


So thats equivalent to what, like 3 months earnings at the rate Delta is scooping up cash? They can pay off the entire LATAM 20% acquisition with less than 6 months worth of earnings.

They still need to pay back the principal also.


You might want to check your math on that. SteelChair's reference isn't just paying off the interest. $1.9 Billion equity stake + $350 million transition payments (and the first $150 million in transition payments has been made).

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 3fc455.pdf
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:56 pm

jumbojet wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
geoshina wrote:
A quick glimpse of maybe why Delta wants Latam (and what AA has lost)

Latam Destinations in South America minus Brazil
Image


Latam Destinations in Brazil

Image


Gol Destinations (December 2018)

Image

Have you guys noticed the difference? In Brazil maybe not so much, but in the rest of South America it is clear. Argentina with Latam + Aerolíneas Argentinas will pretty much dominate the market (not considering the likes of Jetsmart, Norwegian or Flybondi).

Very pretty maps, but with respect, you are showing the wrong ones. I don’t think Delta spent $2B to connect passengers from SCL to Arica or to help an instagrammer take the perfect picture in Patagonia. There were far cheaper ways to do that and AA will probably utilize those cheaper ways by interlining or codesharing with the LCCs. Those routes you show aren’t only flown by LATAM.
You want the international maps showing LIM, GRU, and SCL to North America and, in particular, Miami. That’s why they paid the big bucks. Going after a few backpacker dollars on their way to Cusco doesn’t pay the bills, having larger corporate client bases in GRU, LIM, SCL, Miami, and, in a way, JFK does.


All due respect, there is much more to Latin America than GRU, LIM and SCL to JFK and MIA. Look at those maps again minus South Africa. There are tons of destinations in Latin America that are equally, if not more important, than GRU. LIM and SCL. And those destinations, how do you suppose someone who wants to fly AA will get there? Those secondary and tertiary cities are no longer easily accessible on AA. Even with an interline agreement, its not the same as having a JV partner like DL will soon have in LATAM. There are very BIG differences between an interline agreement and a JV partnership. You know that. I repeat, this is a major strategic blow to AA.

LATAM - a major airline with business class, first class, lounges who run a first rate operation.
LCC - no first or business class, no lounges....Do you really think a business man paying the big bucks will want to fly AA to a LCC or DL to LATAM?

BIG win for DL, BIG loss for AA

It’s probably useful for you to go research the differences between domestic LATAM and an LCC in South America before making dogmatic statements. There is no first class on LATAM narrowbodies. The international flights will be a business class competing directly with AA.

In some cases, the LATAM domestic product is worse than an LCC, in most cases the same, in a few, better.

LATAM operates five clubs: bog, eze, gru, scl, and MIA. Five only. The rest are third party lounges that any other airline could contract out. Consider the places that excludes: LIM (a hub), GIG (they use the aa lounge and it’s the second largest economy in Brazil), LAX, JFK, any other Latin city.

https://www.latam.com/en_ca/about-us/vi ... ges-latam/

Fun fact: GOL has more Brazilian premium lounges than LATAM. AA has more premium lounges in Brazil than LATAM lol.

Business lounges are hardly a LATAM or Delta differentiator When the main US markets in competition all have an aa flagship lounge competing against free soups at the Sky Club. In Latin America: AA has clubs in all the same places but SCL and BOG (which LATAM can’t even support a Miami flight from here) and has them in GIG. And let’s be honest, AA had a club in scl but it closed with the obvious thought that they’d send passengers to LATAM. Hardly a stretch to think AA could open a club in the new scl terminal. Should be fun to see where Delta and LATAM send their premium passengers in GIG now...

I actually don’t think lounges are a differentiator, but if you think they are, LATAM is hardly the go to carrier in Brazil or even Their hub in Lima.


So then back to your point: who will this customer choose on their trip to Miami: LATAM with a 2-2-2 business class or AA with all aisle business class, first class from GRU, and premium economy on wide bodies? Not to mention AA has a hub on the Miami end and can support the smaller one off cities much better than a random LATAM aircraft flying sub daily. In the one off cities AA will always have the advantage, particularly with a G3 tie up.0
What about that customer who’s flying to Miami first then going somewhere else in North America or Latin America? AA will always have the advantage with frequency and destinations out of Miami, regardless of whether Delta adds 5-10 gates.
What about the customer who wants to go to North America and has a choice of connection? Miami or Atlanta (ignoring Dfw in terms of magnitude of unique connections here because I’d make the same argument that a Latin customer will choose Miami over Dfw or iah just like atl). Latin customers have consistently chosen Miami due to the bilingual nature of the hub.
AA will obviously have a huge advantage over anyone originating in Miami.

Delta will certainly have an advantage in NYC with Latin customers. It was about their one final disadvantage left to AA there short of lounges which I don’t think matter against frequency and number of destinations.
But the dogmatic “Passport Plum rah rah” nonsense should cool it a bit.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:14 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Very pretty maps, but with respect, you are showing the wrong ones. I don’t think Delta spent $2B to connect passengers from SCL to Arica or to help an instagrammer take the perfect picture in Patagonia. There were far cheaper ways to do that and AA will probably utilize those cheaper ways by interlining or codesharing with the LCCs. Those routes you show aren’t only flown by LATAM.
You want the international maps showing LIM, GRU, and SCL to North America and, in particular, Miami. That’s why they paid the big bucks. Going after a few backpacker dollars on their way to Cusco doesn’t pay the bills, having larger corporate client bases in GRU, LIM, SCL, Miami, and, in a way, JFK does.


All due respect, there is much more to Latin America than GRU, LIM and SCL to JFK and MIA. Look at those maps again minus South Africa. There are tons of destinations in Latin America that are equally, if not more important, than GRU. LIM and SCL. And those destinations, how do you suppose someone who wants to fly AA will get there? Those secondary and tertiary cities are no longer easily accessible on AA. Even with an interline agreement, its not the same as having a JV partner like DL will soon have in LATAM. There are very BIG differences between an interline agreement and a JV partnership. You know that. I repeat, this is a major strategic blow to AA.

LATAM - a major airline with business class, first class, lounges who run a first rate operation.
LCC - no first or business class, no lounges....Do you really think a business man paying the big bucks will want to fly AA to a LCC or DL to LATAM?

BIG win for DL, BIG loss for AA

It’s probably useful for you to go research the differences between domestic LATAM and an LCC in South America before making dogmatic statements. There is no first class on LATAM narrowbodies. The international flights will be a business class competing directly with AA.

In some cases, the LATAM domestic product is worse than an LCC, in most cases the same, in a few, better.

LATAM operates five clubs: bog, eze, gru, scl, and MIA. Five only. The rest are third party lounges that any other airline could contract out. Consider the places that excludes: LIM (a hub), GIG (they use the aa lounge and it’s the second largest economy in Brazil), LAX, JFK, any other Latin city.

https://www.latam.com/en_ca/about-us/vi ... ges-latam/

Fun fact: GOL has more Brazilian premium lounges than LATAM. AA has more premium lounges in Brazil than LATAM lol.

Business lounges are hardly a LATAM or Delta differentiator When the main US markets in competition all have an aa flagship lounge competing against free soups at the Sky Club. In Latin America: AA has clubs in all the same places but SCL and BOG (which LATAM can’t even support a Miami flight from here) and has them in GIG. And let’s be honest, AA had a club in scl but it closed with the obvious thought that they’d send passengers to LATAM. Hardly a stretch to think AA could open a club in the new scl terminal. Should be fun to see where Delta and LATAM send their premium passengers in GIG now...

I actually don’t think lounges are a differentiator, but if you think they are, LATAM is hardly the go to carrier in Brazil or even Their hub in Lima.


So then back to your point: who will this customer choose on their trip to Miami: LATAM with a 2-2-2 business class or AA with all aisle business class, first class from GRU, and premium economy on wide bodies? Not to mention AA has a hub on the Miami end and can support the smaller one off cities much better than a random LATAM aircraft flying sub daily. In the one off cities AA will always have the advantage, particularly with a G3 tie up.0
What about that customer who’s flying to Miami first then going somewhere else in North America or Latin America? AA will always have the advantage with frequency and destinations out of Miami, regardless of whether Delta adds 5-10 gates.
What about the customer who wants to go to North America and has a choice of connection? Miami or Atlanta (ignoring Dfw in terms of magnitude of unique connections here because I’d make the same argument that a Latin customer will choose Miami over Dfw or iah just like atl). Latin customers have consistently chosen Miami due to the bilingual nature of the hub.
AA will obviously have a huge advantage over anyone originating in Miami.

Delta will certainly have an advantage in NYC with Latin customers. It was about their one final disadvantage left to AA there short of lounges which I don’t think matter against frequency and number of destinations.
But the dogmatic “Passport Plum rah rah” nonsense should cool it a bit.


I'm impressed by how you try to minimalize the impact this has on AA. LATAM plus DL will be the #1 choice to the Americas. So your right, in this case, lounge or no lounge, it really doesnt matter. First class or no class, doesnt matter. DL + LATAM will be the dominant carrier in the market. Not AA. Huge blow to AA. I know this from reading tons of available articles about the matter, not based on my personal opinions. Have you read any of the countless articles available (by doing a simple google search) on the WWW about how devastating this is to OW and to AA?
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:25 pm

It can be both devastating to AA and not the end of the world to AA. Delta certainly becomes more competitive, but AA still has a very good hand. If we are honest, the Latin market was uncompetitively dominated by AA and LATAM. That domination was going to be more pronounced under a JV. This brings the Latin-US market into more of an equilibrium, similar to the TATL and TPAC (when you include all the JVs).

But to argue that it isn't a big deal to AA is pure spin. They applied for a JV for goodness sake! The denial of that, in and of itself, was a huge blow.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:47 pm

jetlanta wrote:
It can be both devastating to AA and not the end of the world to AA. Delta certainly becomes more competitive, but AA still has a very good hand. If we are honest, the Latin market was uncompetitively dominated by AA and LATAM. That domination was going to be more pronounced under a JV. This brings the Latin-US market into more of an equilibrium, similar to the TATL and TPAC (when you include all the JVs).

But to argue that it isn't a big deal to AA is pure spin. They applied for a JV for goodness sake! The denial of that, in and of itself, was a huge blow.

100% a big deal to AA. Huge deal.
That’s not the question. Question was whether it was a huge blow. As Cranky and others have noted, it was a corporate/strategic shock to aa but not a commercial one. I don’t think it’s a huge loss to aa because they appear poised to capture a lot more LATAM corporate traffic in Brazil (with a G3 tie up only obviously) and Miami, the two biggest markets In each region (Miami in North America for Latin traffic and Brazil as a whole in South America), for reasons I’ve mentioned in previous posts.
Happy to be wrong and be called out on it in three years. This site is all about conjecture anyway.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3735
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:43 pm

jumbojet wrote:
All due respect, there is much more to Latin America than GRU, LIM and SCL to JFK and MIA. Look at those maps again minus South Africa. There are tons of destinations in Latin America that are equally, if not more important, than GRU. LIM and SCL. And those destinations, how do you suppose someone who wants to fly AA will get there? Those secondary and tertiary cities are no longer easily accessible on AA. Even with an interline agreement, its not the same as having a JV partner like DL will soon have in LATAM. There are very BIG differences between an interline agreement and a JV partnership. You know that. I repeat, this is a major strategic blow to AA.

LATAM - a major airline with business class, first class, lounges who run a first rate operation.
LCC - no first or business class, no lounges....Do you really think a business man paying the big bucks will want to fly AA to a LCC or DL to LATAM?

BIG win for DL, BIG loss for AA


LATAM has been removing the dedicated premium cabins from their narrowbodies and slashing amenities on local flights so the last flight from the major city to the secondary city will be equally uncomfortable whether on LATAM or a local LCC. I’m hoping that the Delta investment spurs LATAM to improve their service standards back to what they used to be.

That being said, the connection should be more seamless with both carriers able to assist each other’s passengers than with the simple interline agreement.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23967
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:41 am

Airline Weekly had interesting insight from an interview with outgoing LATAM CEO Ignaco Cueto. Give more details how the deal came together.


When Chile’s supreme court unanimously blocked Latam’s planned joint venture with American in May, “we set off the alarms” and immediately began looking at other options, Cueto said. Three months ago, at a meeting with Delta executives facilitated by bankers, he raised the idea of cooperation. And thus the discussions began. Cueto estimates the new alliance with Delta could add some $250m a year to Latam’s financial result. Cueto expressed confidence Latam this time wins approval for its joint venture.
As for Latam’s proposed joint venture with Europe’s IAG, which the Chilean supreme court also rejected, it remains unaffected by the Delta partnership. And implementing the IAG joint venture with carveouts for itineraries involving Chile remains a possibility.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
onwFan
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:46 am

LAXintl wrote:
Airline Weekly had interesting insight from an interview with outgoing LATAM CEO Ignaco Cueto. Give more details how the deal came together.


When Chile’s supreme court unanimously blocked Latam’s planned joint venture with American in May, “we set off the alarms” and immediately began looking at other options, Cueto said. Three months ago, at a meeting with Delta executives facilitated by bankers, he raised the idea of cooperation. And thus the discussions began. Cueto estimates the new alliance with Delta could add some $250m a year to Latam’s financial result. Cueto expressed confidence Latam this time wins approval for its joint venture.
As for Latam’s proposed joint venture with Europe’s IAG, which the Chilean supreme court also rejected, it remains unaffected by the Delta partnership. And implementing the IAG joint venture with carveouts for itineraries involving Chile remains a possibility.


One thing that strikes me as odd is why LATAM is okay with carving out Chile from its JV with IAG but not from its JV with AA?
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:22 am

JAMBOJET wrote:
[
That’s not the question. Question was whether it was a huge blow.


according to this article from Yahoo Finance, a no nonsense news agency, it is a blow to IAG and AA.

about 5 paragraphs down in the below linked article, the IAG boss says the following:

We continue to have a good relationship with Latam but this clearly does potentially change the nature of that relationship,” he said.
Even before the news of Delta’s deal broke, IAG and American had suffered a blow with their plans for the region, when a court in Chile banned their joint venture proposals.


Complete (and interesting) article here:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/envious- ... 03704.html
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6184
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:37 am

DL made an 8-K SEC filing on 10/28/19 noting it had completed its offering of $1.5 Billion in bonds. That didn't take long.

On October 28, 2019, Delta Air Lines, Inc. (“Delta,” “we, “us” or our”) completed a public offering of $1,500,000,000 in aggregate principal amount
of unsecured notes, consisting of: (i) $900,000,000 in aggregate principal amount of 2.900% Notes due 2024 (the “2024 Notes”) and (ii) $600,000,000 in
aggregate principal amount of 3.750% Notes due 2029 (the “2029 Notes” and, together with the 2024 Notes, the “Notes”).

...

The Notes are our direct, unsecured and unsubordinated obligations. The Notes rank pari passu, or equal, in right of payment, with all of our other
unsubordinated indebtedness and senior in right of payment to all of our future subordinated debt.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:03 am

LAXintl wrote:
Airline Weekly had interesting insight from an interview with outgoing LATAM CEO Ignaco Cueto. Give more details how the deal came together.


When Chile’s supreme court unanimously blocked Latam’s planned joint venture with American in May, “we set off the alarms” and immediately began looking at other options, Cueto said. Three months ago, at a meeting with Delta executives facilitated by bankers, he raised the idea of cooperation. And thus the discussions began. Cueto estimates the new alliance with Delta could add some $250m a year to Latam’s financial result. Cueto expressed confidence Latam this time wins approval for its joint venture.
As for Latam’s proposed joint venture with Europe’s IAG, which the Chilean supreme court also rejected, it remains unaffected by the Delta partnership. And implementing the IAG joint venture with carveouts for itineraries involving Chile remains a possibility.


Interesting. Sounds like LATAM wasted no time looking for a partner once the supreme court decision was made.

onwFan wrote:
One thing that strikes me as odd is why LATAM is okay with carving out Chile from its JV with IAG but not from its JV with AA?


Probably because the Chile-Spain market loss not as critical to the broader JV as the larger Chile-US market would be
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23967
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:06 pm

Airline Weekly has story with Gol CFO who sees the end of the Delta relationship as actually positive for the airline. Quote below:


Will losing Delta as a partner sour its future prospects? This was a topic Gol addressed at an investor event, its first public appearance in fact, since Delta’s blockbuster announcement about forming an alliance with Gol’s larger and more global rival Latam.
Seeking to allay investor fears, Gol said the Delta generated a mere 0.3% of its revenues, with the giant airline flying to Brazil just three times a day. With the partnership phasing out over the next six months, Gol has “more degrees of freedom” to pursue codeshares with other airlines, and more importantly pursue its own organic international growth to places like Florida and the Caribbean when its MAXs return to service — it need not worry anymore about Delta objecting to such expansion to protect its own U.S.-Brazil business. Gol mentions that it already has interline partnerships with both American and United, and notes that unlike Delta’s skeletal three flights a day to Brazil, American has significant more flights that would potentially link with the Gol network. “The opportunities for us are quite large” said CFO Richard Lark.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
onwFan
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:18 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Airline Weekly has story with Gol CFO who sees the end of the Delta relationship as actually positive for the airline. Quote below:


Will losing Delta as a partner sour its future prospects? This was a topic Gol addressed at an investor event, its first public appearance in fact, since Delta’s blockbuster announcement about forming an alliance with Gol’s larger and more global rival Latam.
Seeking to allay investor fears, Gol said the Delta generated a mere 0.3% of its revenues, with the giant airline flying to Brazil just three times a day. With the partnership phasing out over the next six months, Gol has “more degrees of freedom” to pursue codeshares with other airlines, and more importantly pursue its own organic international growth to places like Florida and the Caribbean when its MAXs return to service — it need not worry anymore about Delta objecting to such expansion to protect its own U.S.-Brazil business. Gol mentions that it already has interline partnerships with both American and United, and notes that unlike Delta’s skeletal three flights a day to Brazil, American has significant more flights that would potentially link with the Gol network. “The opportunities for us are quite large” said CFO Richard Lark.

There is no doubt that G3 hit jackpot. With DL, if they wanted to extract anything out of the partnership, they had to fly to ATL (which they couldn't and anyway wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever). With AA, G3 will gain the opportunity to fly to MIA from secondary destinations in North-East Brazil like REC, SSA, NAT, FOR in addition to BSB and MAO. But this might push LA out of these markets where it has 1-2 weekly flights.
 
LawAndOrder
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:56 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:22 am

GOL come on you’ve got to be kidding us. They gained so much more from Delta than revenue. Do some research on flight patterns, turn procedures and a whole slew of other things (including clubs) that miraculously got better when they partnership with Delta strengthened.

Yes they have more flexibility than before sure, but didn’t they have that before DL. All of the carriers will be alright but AA can’t value their partnership then it ends and says oh it’s not important and GOL do they same thing. If that was the case why didn’t they attempt to end it and go back to how the operations were ahead of the partnership.
 
LAOCA
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:20 pm

MIA seems more like a necessary "evil" (for lack of a better word) for DL. Not a focus city, certainly not a new hub, barely even a gateway. Just an appeasement to make the deal work. I would watch for more flights from SA to ATL and other DL hubs on both LATAM and DL metal. MIA will likley wind up as an O&D city with limited connections. Most of which likely on RJs and 220s.

If DL was ever to make a serious move into South Florida, it would be at FLL.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:26 pm

LawAndOrder wrote:
GOL come on you’ve got to be kidding us. They gained so much more from Delta than revenue. Do some research on flight patterns, turn procedures and a whole slew of other things (including clubs) that miraculously got better when they partnership with Delta strengthened.

Yes they have more flexibility than before sure, but didn’t they have that before DL. All of the carriers will be alright but AA can’t value their partnership then it ends and says oh it’s not important and GOL do they same thing. If that was the case why didn’t they attempt to end it and go back to how the operations were ahead of the partnership.

They can still carry on with that operational knowledge without DL...

Nowhere in that quote did GOL seem ungrateful for the DL partnership, but rather they are now excited that they have full power to do what they want. That is the double edge sword in regards to DL ownership. In the end DL is going to (try to) steer you to do ultimately what is best for DL.
 
questions
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:44 pm

LAOCA wrote:
MIA seems more like a necessary "evil" (for lack of a better word) for DL. Not a focus city, certainly not a new hub, barely even a gateway. Just an appeasement to make the deal work. I would watch for more flights from SA to ATL and other DL hubs on both LATAM and DL metal. MIA will likley wind up as an O&D city with limited connections. Most of which likely on RJs and 220s.

If DL was ever to make a serious move into South Florida, it would be at FLL.


You touch on something interesting: hub, focus city, gateway. Delta does really define the terms and how they fit into their network strategy. They use the term that kind of fits into the context at hand.

More than likely MIA will be “a focus city providing connectivity for a strategic partner’s gateway city.”

Other thoughts:

ATL — we will not see a big build up to LA; Miami is too much of a draw and passengers destined to So Florida will not want to connect to another flight and backtrack. We will see some flight and aircraft rationalization as Delta and LATAM re-route MIA connecting traffic.

FLL — It always seems like a viable alternative with it’s proximity to Miami. However it’s not. We might see one-two P2P flights for So Florida bound traffic not interested in Miami. Don’t expect a big build up.

Remember, this is not about LATAM and MIA, it’s about LATAM connection into Delta’s network and determining where the most money can be made. MIA is just one piece. ATL is not everything [gasp]?
 
Ishrion
Posts: 1478
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:49 pm

Not sure if posted already, but LATAM will leave Oneworld on October 1, 2020:

https://www.qantas.com/au/en/frequent-f ... latam.html
 
JJ777
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:27 pm

LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Qantas accidentally leaked today that LATAM is set to leave OW on September 30th 2020.

https://www.qantas.com/au/en/frequent-f ... latam.html

Image
 
User avatar
Mistral1
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:15 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:16 pm

Oops...
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:21 pm

Will LATAM relocate at JFK out of T8 into T4?
 
User avatar
Miami
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:25 pm

Stupid move.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
superjeff
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:27 pm

not surprising. But one question regarding the oneWorld situation: How close are Delta and Aerolineas Argentinas? Could AR leave Skyteam and go to oneWorld? anybody have any thoughts?
 
JJ777
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:27 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:48 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Will LATAM relocate at JFK out of T8 into T4?


Probably as soon as LA and DL sign a codeshare agreement.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6995
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:53 pm

JJ777 wrote:
Qantas accidentally leaked today that LATAM is set to leave OW on September 30th 2020.

So we can assume that DL frequent fliers will be able to earn SkyMiles on LA flights from October 1st, 2020, onwards?

superjeff wrote:
How close are Delta and Aerolineas Argentinas? Could AR leave Skyteam and go to oneWorld? anybody have any thoughts?

AR is one of the peripheral SkyTeam members. As a DL frequent flier, you earn less miles on AR flights than you would earn on equivalent distance AM, AF, KE flights. Having said that, in my opinion AR is not that great a catch in order for AA and the rest of the oneworld partners to go out of their way to lure out of SkyTeam and into oneworld, but of course I could be wrong.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:52 pm

EddieDude wrote:
JJ777 wrote:
Qantas accidentally leaked today that LATAM is set to leave OW on September 30th 2020.

So we can assume that DL frequent fliers will be able to earn SkyMiles on LA flights from October 1st, 2020, onwards?

superjeff wrote:
How close are Delta and Aerolineas Argentinas? Could AR leave Skyteam and go to oneWorld? anybody have any thoughts?

AR is one of the peripheral SkyTeam members. As a DL frequent flier, you earn less miles on AR flights than you would earn on equivalent distance AM, AF, KE flights. Having said that, in my opinion AR is not that great a catch in order for AA and the rest of the oneworld partners to go out of their way to lure out of SkyTeam and into oneworld, but of course I could be wrong.


AA dominates US-Argentina routes (JFK/MIA/DFW/LAX to EZE and MIA to COR) and operates a maintenance and crew base at EZE. Bringing AR into oneworld or into some kind of code-share has pluses and minuses. The obvious advantage is the opportunity for pax to connect to multiple domestic destinations (Argentina, geographically isn't suited for connections to further Latin America destinations) but the incremental revenue is likely not significant enough. AR, like Argentina itself, is prone to cyclical crises and probably not worth the headache. In short, AR isn't the Latin American anchor partner AA needs or wants.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6995
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:39 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
The obvious advantage is the opportunity for pax to connect to multiple domestic destinations (Argentina, geographically isn't suited for connections to further Latin America destinations) but the incremental revenue is likely not significant enough.

It is not such an obvious and real advantage, considering that all international flights arrive into EZE, and most domestic flights depart from AEP. This situation alone diminishes AR's attractiveness as a connection partner.

Cointrin330 wrote:
AR isn't the Latin American anchor partner AA needs or wants.

Agree. This also applies to DL and how it never cared about forging deeper ties with AR and instead it let it be a second or third tier SkyMiles partner.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
User avatar
prchan
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:29 pm

https://passageirodeprimeira.com/posici ... -oneworld/

Local website is announcing this as official response from Latam (link in Portuguese).
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:01 pm

Will we see news on LATAM's EU destination.

FRA/MAD aren't skyteam point (the latter with UX leaving). But are very big markets for spanish speakers.

Will we see them move to CDG/AMS/LHR ? I.M.H.O. moving the FRA tag to AMS could be really interesting/smart. (if one get's the slots).
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
onwFan
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:57 pm

Miami wrote:
Stupid move.

Indeed. In a few years, they will no longer be a powerhouse in Latin America, losing both AA and IB. Huge win for all other players in the region to remain ‘relevant’.
 
JJ777
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:27 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:16 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Will we see news on LATAM's EU destination.

FRA/MAD aren't skyteam point (the latter with UX leaving). But are very big markets for spanish speakers.

Will we see them move to CDG/AMS/LHR ? I.M.H.O. moving the FRA tag to AMS could be really interesting/smart. (if one get's the slots).


LA's JV with IAG is not going away anytime soon. Plus, AF/KL just extended their partnership with G3 until 2024.
 
DL777200LR
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:15 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:06 am

JJ777 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Will LATAM relocate at JFK out of T8 into T4?


Probably as soon as LA and DL sign a codeshare agreement.


No chance. DL barely has enough space for their own flights unless other airlines move out of t4
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
questions
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:11 am

DL777200LR wrote:
JJ777 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Will LATAM relocate at JFK out of T8 into T4?


Probably as soon as LA and DL sign a codeshare agreement.


No chance. DL barely has enough space for their own flights unless other airlines move out of t4


Agree. It’s an interesting question given T2 will be demolished for T1 rebuild and nothing has been said in years about the extension of T4A.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:37 pm

DL777200LR wrote:
JJ777 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Will LATAM relocate at JFK out of T8 into T4?


Probably as soon as LA and DL sign a codeshare agreement.


No chance. DL barely has enough space for their own flights unless other airlines move out of t4


Agree. T4 is packed as it is and LATAM operate up to 5 flights (I think it's actually 4) per day, all of them widebodies and all of them obviously needing to access FIS. T1 is bursting at the seams and T2 has no immigration facility.

Terminal 8 has the space and capacity but I think AA owns it and can kick them out if it wants to, though it could also just as easily hike the rent or keep the revenue stream going, though from a brand association perspective it is more than a little awkward and the other non-AA carriers at T8 are all oneworld members (Qatar, Qantas, Cathay, Finnair, Royal Jordanian) with BA and Iberia slated to relocate to T8 in 2022.
 
onwFan
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:31 pm

Miami wrote:
Stupid move.

Indeed... Sad to see LATAM go down the drain... On the bright side, this will open up the two most important carriers in the LatinAmerican international market (IB/UX and AA) to be available to other smaller carriers in the region, including Avianca. Great win for all other Latin American carriers!
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:56 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
DL777200LR wrote:
JJ777 wrote:


Terminal 8 has the space and capacity but I think AA owns it and can kick them out if it wants to, though it could also just as easily hike the rent.


Umm, no they cant. There are contracts and lease agreements that are binding.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:59 pm

onwFan wrote:
Miami wrote:
Stupid move.

Indeed... Sad to see LATAM go down the drain... !


Just the opposite. LATAM plus Delta will be a force that no one will be able to come close to matching.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:18 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
DL777200LR wrote:


Umm, no they cant. There are contracts and lease agreements that are binding.

Oh good. I was hoping someone on a.net had a copy of all of LATAM and AA’s lease agreements and could speak to them absent a Delta Bias.
Lol
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:21 pm

jumbojet wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Miami wrote:
Stupid move.

Indeed... Sad to see LATAM go down the drain... !


Just the opposite. LATAM plus Delta will be a force that no one will be able to come close to matching.


I’m sure all of secondary Latin America eagerly awaits their new Delta & Atlanta nonstops. History has shown us that Spanish/Portuguese speakers truly love a connection in multilingual Atlanta. Certainly won’t be on LATAM, they can’t even support BOG-MIA or GIG-MIA with a hub carrier in Miami. :roll:
 
luckyone
Posts: 2856
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:18 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Indeed... Sad to see LATAM go down the drain... !


Just the opposite. LATAM plus Delta will be a force that no one will be able to come close to matching.


I’m sure all of secondary Latin America eagerly awaits their new Delta & Atlanta nonstops. History has shown us that Spanish/Portuguese speakers truly love a connection in multilingual Atlanta. Certainly won’t be on LATAM, they can’t even support BOG-MIA or GIG-MIA with a hub carrier in Miami. :roll:

I'm not saying that ATL is well-known for its Portuguese-speaking population, or have as many Spanish speakers as Miami, but there are plenty of Spanish speakers in Atlanta, and there are plenty available to assist at the airport. Portuguese speakers did not have a guaranteed assist in the D concourse at MIA. I've taken AA flights through there to Brazil where none of the gate agents spoke Portuguese, and that can certainly be the case for domestic flights.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:52 pm

luckyone wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Just the opposite. LATAM plus Delta will be a force that no one will be able to come close to matching.


I’m sure all of secondary Latin America eagerly awaits their new Delta & Atlanta nonstops. History has shown us that Spanish/Portuguese speakers truly love a connection in multilingual Atlanta. Certainly won’t be on LATAM, they can’t even support BOG-MIA or GIG-MIA with a hub carrier in Miami. :roll:

I'm not saying that ATL is well-known for its Portuguese-speaking population, or have as many Spanish speakers as Miami, but there are plenty of Spanish speakers in Atlanta, and there are plenty available to assist at the airport. Portuguese speakers did not have a guaranteed assist in the D concourse at MIA. I've taken AA flights through there to Brazil where none of the gate agents spoke Portuguese, and that can certainly be the case for domestic flights.

Even trying to make an equivalency between Miami and Atlanta for Latin customers is a tad humorous. Have you been to Atlanta airport? Finding fried chicken and a Varsity Hamburger is easy, finding a Spanish speaker is not, much less a Portuguese speaker.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2856
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:43 am

JAMBOJET wrote:
luckyone wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:

I’m sure all of secondary Latin America eagerly awaits their new Delta & Atlanta nonstops. History has shown us that Spanish/Portuguese speakers truly love a connection in multilingual Atlanta. Certainly won’t be on LATAM, they can’t even support BOG-MIA or GIG-MIA with a hub carrier in Miami. :roll:

I'm not saying that ATL is well-known for its Portuguese-speaking population, or have as many Spanish speakers as Miami, but there are plenty of Spanish speakers in Atlanta, and there are plenty available to assist at the airport. Portuguese speakers did not have a guaranteed assist in the D concourse at MIA. I've taken AA flights through there to Brazil where none of the gate agents spoke Portuguese, and that can certainly be the case for domestic flights.

Even trying to make an equivalency between Miami and Atlanta for Latin customers is a tad humorous. Have you been to Atlanta airport? Finding fried chicken and a Varsity Hamburger is easy, finding a Spanish speaker is not, much less a Portuguese speaker.

I only grew up in Atlanta and have used the airport for over twenty years, and lived in Miami for a while--guess I don't know much. For the record there's only one Varsity at ATL and it's on the C concourse--enjoy your FO and slawdog.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23967
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:38 pm

The Delta stock offering commenced today.

DL is offering current LATAM shareholders $16/share for up to 121,281,530mil shares. The offer extends until December 26 at 4:00 p.m.

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/ava ... -aerolinea
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:59 am

luckyone wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I'm not saying that ATL is well-known for its Portuguese-speaking population, or have as many Spanish speakers as Miami, but there are plenty of Spanish speakers in Atlanta, and there are plenty available to assist at the airport. Portuguese speakers did not have a guaranteed assist in the D concourse at MIA. I've taken AA flights through there to Brazil where none of the gate agents spoke Portuguese, and that can certainly be the case for domestic flights.

Even trying to make an equivalency between Miami and Atlanta for Latin customers is a tad humorous. Have you been to Atlanta airport? Finding fried chicken and a Varsity Hamburger is easy, finding a Spanish speaker is not, much less a Portuguese speaker.

I only grew up in Atlanta and have used the airport for over twenty years, and lived in Miami for a while--guess I don't know much. For the record there's only one Varsity at ATL and it's on the C concourse--enjoy your FO and slawdog.


This isn’t true. There’s also a Varsity in the F concourse.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2856
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:43 pm

bcbhokie wrote:
luckyone wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Even trying to make an equivalency between Miami and Atlanta for Latin customers is a tad humorous. Have you been to Atlanta airport? Finding fried chicken and a Varsity Hamburger is easy, finding a Spanish speaker is not, much less a Portuguese speaker.

I only grew up in Atlanta and have used the airport for over twenty years, and lived in Miami for a while--guess I don't know much. For the record there's only one Varsity at ATL and it's on the C concourse--enjoy your FO and slawdog.


This isn’t true. There’s also a Varsity in the F concourse.

Duly noted. Thanks for updating me...I will say I've used the airport many times, but always domestically since the new F was opened up.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1447
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:57 pm

luckyone wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Just the opposite. LATAM plus Delta will be a force that no one will be able to come close to matching.


I’m sure all of secondary Latin America eagerly awaits their new Delta & Atlanta nonstops. History has shown us that Spanish/Portuguese speakers truly love a connection in multilingual Atlanta. Certainly won’t be on LATAM, they can’t even support BOG-MIA or GIG-MIA with a hub carrier in Miami. :roll:

I'm not saying that ATL is well-known for its Portuguese-speaking population, or have as many Spanish speakers as Miami, but there are plenty of Spanish speakers in Atlanta, and there are plenty available to assist at the airport. Portuguese speakers did not have a guaranteed assist in the D concourse at MIA. I've taken AA flights through there to Brazil where none of the gate agents spoke Portuguese, and that can certainly be the case for domestic flights.


In metro ATL, there is a small Brazilian contingent which lives in southern Marietta, but otherwise you would be looking at the Buford corridor for Spanish speakers.

Nothing that rivals MIA (or even MCO) for that matter.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5917
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Delta buying 20% of LATAM

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:43 pm

Since demographics were brought up, here is some data from 2018 relating to South America. This only considers the top 50 metro areas in the US:

South American population by MSA (does not include Brazil):
New York: 963,113
Miami: 647,939
Washington DC: 187,931
Los Angeles: 157,261
Orlando: 142,791
Houston: 110,890
Chicago: 83,290
Boston: 74,869
Tampa: 72,886
Dallas/Fort Worth: 62,301
San Francisco: 60,435
Atlanta: 58,473
Philadelphia: 47,150
Riverside: 47,150
San Diego: 25,335
Las Vegas: 23,817
Seattle: 22,128
Minneapolis: 21,627
Denver: 19,941
Phoenix: 19,914
San Jose: 16,994
Austin: 16,722
Sacramento: 15,077
Detroit: 7,466

Brazilian Population by Metro Area:
Boston: 51,195
NYC: 48,497
Miami: 46,882
Orlando: 14,956
Los Angeles: 12,859
Bridgeport, CT: 11,229
Washington DC: 11,086
San Francisco: 10,537
Atlanta: 9511
Philadelphia: 7783
Worcester, MA: 6928
Dallas: 6543
Houston: 6402
San Diego: 5478
Providence: 5357

Total Hispanic Population by MSA (Includes Mexico, Central America, South America and the Caribbean):
Los Angeles: 6,003,538
New York: 4,924,385
Miami: 2,841,433
Houston: 2,632,586
Riverside: 2,386,270
Dallas/Fort Worth: 2,189,777
Chicago: 2,128,297
Phoenix: 1,515,683
San Diego: 1,135,348
San Francisco: 1,039,915
Washington DC: 1,009,795
Orlando: 809,852
Austin: 707,964
Las Vegas: 701,766
Denver: 680,087
Atlanta: 646,761
Tampa: 629,987
Philadelphia: 591,878
Boston: 562,958
San Jose: 527,780
Sacramento: 512,246
Seattle: 402,525
Minneapolis: 217,078
Detroit: 197,142

And this is by Hispanic growth from 2013-2018:
Houston: 352,964
Miami/Fort Lauderdale: 351,185
Dallas/Fort Worth: 280,334
Riverside: 244,166
New York: 234,553
Phoenix: 199,489
Orlando: 190,733
San Antonio: 158,786
Washington DC: 135,442
Tampa: 132,928
Austin: 106,853
Los Angeles: 103,525
Boston: 97,165
Las Vegas: 93,961
Chicago: 85,842
San Diego: 77,720
Philadelphia: 76,540
Atlanta: 66,989
Denver: 66,563
Seattle: 60,215
Sacramento: 51,057
San Francisco: 50,299
Minneapolis/St. Paul: 24,938
Detroit: 19,129
San Jose: -3,646
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos