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RainerBoeing777
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Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:28 am

The CEO of Delta (DL) showed something discontent with respect to Skyteam and they were going to look for their own strategic alliances, there are many Skyteam airlines that do not contribute much to the DL business, maybe for the next decade Skyteam dissolves

So far the JV and investments of Delta has been very strategic and have given excellent results, Delta (DL) could create a mega global alliance with a network since all its partners are strategic

The possible alliance could remain
Americas: Delta, Aeromexico, WestJet and LATAM Group
Europe: Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic, Alitalia
Pacific: Virgin Atlantic
Asia: China Eastern, Korean Air

To complete they will need partners in India, Southeast Asia and Africa

> In India Vistara is a potential candidate, they have already shown interest in doing a JV with Air France-KLM and Delta
> Africa, the situation of Kenya Airways is somewhat complicated but it could be integrated KLM has 26% of this airline and KQ has shown interest in improving the relationship with Air France and KLM for routes in North America, although I would not be surprised without going big and join with Ethiopian Airlines, the Ethiopian government has expressed interest in privatizing a fraction of the ET Delta could take advantage of this since ET is the largest and most profitable airline in Africa
> In Southeast Asia Vietnam Airlines could be an option, on the other hand Singapore Airlines is a great candidate, relations with United are not good but at the same time it has excellent relations with Lufthansa Group, ANA, Air New Zealand it could be difficult to leave Star Alliance

It was surprising the purchase of 20% of LATAM Group by Delta, I'm sure they can make this alliance, what are your expectations?
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SCFlyer
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 am

I'm assuming you meant Virgin Australia for the Pacific region..

SQ "joining up with DL" would probably depend on their future shareholding in VA as well. There's been all sorts of rumours in regards to SQ's stake in VA from "buying more" (which have all turned out to be "fake news" everytime), selling their stake and exiting VA financially, or remaining the status quo (not selling nor not buying).
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:29 am

United made a preemptive move with Vistara and signed a codeshare agreement with them... not to say that can't change.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:37 am

One can't assume that a bunch of minority equity stakes will be successful. DL needs those carriers to earn profits (or throw off enough synergies for DL to book profits); otherwise it's just tying up capital that Delta could use buying new airplanes (or returning to shareholders).

Minority stakes in many carriers certainly didn't work for Swissair in the late 90s. Swissair decided to acquire 49.5 percent of the very successful Italian charter airline Air Europe, the unprofitable Belgian flag carrier, Sabena, and significant stakes in the carriers Air Liberté, AOM, Air Littoral, Volare, LOT, Turkish Airlines, South African Airways, Portugália and LTU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair#Hunter_Strategy

You know how that ended, right? It was with Swissair's liquidation and creation of Swiss International out of former regional carrier Crossair.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:44 am

Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand
 
flyby519
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:58 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand


This right here. I think Delta is aiming for a global airline in the sense of one brand and eventually one company when cross border mergers and traffic rights are not an issue.
 
SWADawg
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:17 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand

Major Scope and possible Anti Trust issues with that. The Delta Pilots would never allow Delta branding on Aircraft that aren’t being operated by Pilots on the Delta Seniority List.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
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Channex757
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:41 pm

They don't have to.

Alliances are the product of 80s and 90s thinking. When airlines would issue each others tickets and use lounges for instance. Nowadays there isn't any need to have these formal groupings as the world is interconnected in much more flexible and speedy ways, so authorisations can be instantly sent and tickets printed at home alongside boarding cards. The formality of the alliance isn't really necessary any more.

Airlines can choose just how they cooperate and even where. Why not a series of deals where Delta just picks the connections it wants rather than some rigid agreement under the Skyteam banner?
 
ual763
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:42 pm

SWADawg wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand

Major Scope and possible Anti Trust issues with that. The Delta Pilots would never allow Delta branding on Aircraft that aren’t being operated by Pilots on the Delta Seniority List.


Not to mention, a good number of them don’t have the best safety records and even worse safety cultures. An airline like Delta isn’t going to want their name or logo on a few of these. This is pure fantasy.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:43 pm

There is no doubt that this is simply a continuation of DL's "JV with ownership stake" approach to airline partnerships over the past several years.

In the back of my mind, I cannot help but wonder whether Warren Buffet may have had a hand in the evolution and execution of the LATAM deal. I suspect that Buffet and Bastian may have had more than one friendly chat over drinks and dinner since Berkshire Hathaway began upping their investment in DL.

If in fact we are witnessing the evolution of a new DL-lead global airline alliance, beyond LATAM, what other shocking new members might be forthcoming?
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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jayunited
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:54 pm

flyby519 wrote:
This right here. I think Delta is aiming for a global airline in the sense of one brand and eventually one company when cross border mergers and traffic rights are not an issue.


I don't disagree with what you are saying I'm just not sure we will achieve what you have stated in this century. Allowing cross border mergers traffic rights not being an issue would require a level of corporation between the governments of the world it would require a level of trust that simply doesn't exist today. I'm not sure any government would even entertain the idea of allowing a U.S. airline to merge or completely takeover an airline based in there state and vise versa I don't see the U.S. government allowing a foreign carrier to take over or merge with any U.S. flagged carrier.

I like where your head is at but I'm not sure governing bodies around the world would ever allow something like this to happen.

As far as a global alliance I think DL can pull this off and create their own alliance that works for them in a way SkyTeam has failed. I think with the right airlines DL's alliance could end SkyTeam and could rival OneWorld and even Star. The LATAM move is for sure a wake up call to the other global alliances DL is putting the world on notice one airline at a time. If I was OneWorld or Star I would be calling an emergency meeting to discuss ways airlines within the alliances can better work together. Airlines like UA and SQ, UA and AI in Star need to start working together and bury any grievances. If not who is to say if one day we don't have another headline DL peels SQ away from Star or AI. I think DL can succeed where the Middle East airlines failed and OneWorld and Star need to take this seriously.
 
spud757
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:05 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand


Delta U.K.? Not gonna happen. The Virgin [Atlantic... Money... Radio, etc.] brand is too well known in the U.K. market whereas Delta, much less so. I imagine this will only get stronger for the airline division as and when they rebrand BE. VS is already in a JV with DL, code sharing on each other’s flights. DL gets its reach into U.K. market vis this tie up (and vis AF/KL) and vice versa for VS.
 
ericm2031
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:36 pm

DL747400 wrote:
There is no doubt that this is simply a continuation of DL's "JV with ownership stake" approach to airline partnerships over the past several years.

In the back of my mind, I cannot help but wonder whether Warren Buffet may have had a hand in the evolution and execution of the LATAM deal. I suspect that Buffet and Bastian may have had more than one friendly chat over drinks and dinner since Berkshire Hathaway began upping their investment in DL.

If in fact we are witnessing the evolution of a new DL-lead global airline alliance, beyond LATAM, what other shocking new members might be forthcoming?


AI is always an option, but they are such a mess, it may not be looked on as a wise investment and with so much competition, it may not be salvageable.

And there’s always the CX rumor every year that they are leaving OneWorld for Star. DL could shock everyone and jump in. SQ also doesn’t seem to be that tied to Star despite being a founding member.

Anything is at stake now
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:09 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
The CEO of Delta (DL) showed something discontent with respect to Skyteam and they were going to look for their own strategic alliances, there are many Skyteam airlines that do not contribute much to the DL business, maybe for the next decade Skyteam dissolves

The word you are looking for is not alliance, it's cartel:

Cartel:

An international syndicate, combine, or trust formed especially to regulate prices and output in some field of business.

Ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cartel

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onwFan
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
One can't assume that a bunch of minority equity stakes will be successful. DL needs those carriers to earn profits (or throw off enough synergies for DL to book profits); otherwise it's just tying up capital that Delta could use buying new airplanes (or returning to shareholders).

Minority stakes in many carriers certainly didn't work for Swissair in the late 90s. Swissair decided to acquire 49.5 percent of the very successful Italian charter airline Air Europe, the unprofitable Belgian flag carrier, Sabena, and significant stakes in the carriers Air Liberté, AOM, Air Littoral, Volare, LOT, Turkish Airlines, South African Airways, Portugália and LTU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair#Hunter_Strategy

You know how that ended, right? It was with Swissair's liquidation and creation of Swiss International out of former regional carrier Crossair.


Couldn't agree more... People describe this development as 'shocking'. Somehow I sense that in a few years the shocking headline will be "DL files for bankruptcy again after sustaining huge losses from failed investments" :P. They only need to invest in Alitalia as well to speed up that process...

LATAM's failure to secure JV with AA and IAG sealed this deal. I have always been surprised by the rate at which Latin American economies fluctuate.. Small fluctuations for large companies can mean lot of money.
 
Jano
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:24 pm

Wish DL purchased 49% of Czech Airlines with the reminder purchased by AF/KL. And add ATL-PRG 2x daily :)
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EBiafore99
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:33 pm

[quote="RainerBoeing777"]The CEO of Delta (DL) showed something discontent with respect to Skyteam and they were going to look for their own strategic alliances, there are many Skyteam airlines that do not contribute much to the DL business, maybe for the next decade Skyteam dissolves

I actually understand Bastian. Personally, I think the only alliance that ever really worked was NW/KLM. NW was never big in Europe, so to have KLM as a partner filled a big void that I don't think NW could ever fill. Furthermore, NW/KLM integrated operations so well (at least IMO) that when flying between them, it felt truly as one airline. There was none of this "well, you'll have to go to NW because that's who you booked your ticket through" crap when something went wrong. Finally, I know this statement shows my age, but I liked the NW/KLM World Business Class. Was it the latest and greatest? No, but was it consistent? Yes.

If DL is going towards the same approach, I'm all for it. I would rather see a well-integrated alliance with fewer destinations rather a than a large, unwieldy alliance where members really only work together on the surface, but when something goes wrong, it's always the other airline's fault.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:51 pm

Too bad their Jet Airways plan went up in smoke.
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klm617
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:54 pm

onwFan wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
One can't assume that a bunch of minority equity stakes will be successful. DL needs those carriers to earn profits (or throw off enough synergies for DL to book profits); otherwise it's just tying up capital that Delta could use buying new airplanes (or returning to shareholders).

Minority stakes in many carriers certainly didn't work for Swissair in the late 90s. Swissair decided to acquire 49.5 percent of the very successful Italian charter airline Air Europe, the unprofitable Belgian flag carrier, Sabena, and significant stakes in the carriers Air Liberté, AOM, Air Littoral, Volare, LOT, Turkish Airlines, South African Airways, Portugália and LTU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair#Hunter_Strategy

You know how that ended, right? It was with Swissair's liquidation and creation of Swiss International out of former regional carrier Crossair.


Couldn't agree more... People describe this development as 'shocking'. Somehow I sense that in a few years the shocking headline will be "DL files for bankruptcy again after sustaining huge losses from failed investments" :P. They only need to invest in Alitalia as well to speed up that process...

LATAM's failure to secure JV with AA and IAG sealed this deal. I have always been surprised by the rate at which Latin American economies fluctuate.. Small fluctuations for large companies can mean lot of money.



Delta is an airline being run on ego right now. It reminds me of the onset of deregulation when every airline thought they had to fly every where and all the did was chase after bad money with good money. Delta needs to get back to it's core and get back to what got them where they are today and stop trying to rule the airline world. As Delta buys into these airlines they can dictate pricing something they can't do in a standard alliance.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:05 pm

SWADawg wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand

Major Scope and possible Anti Trust issues with that. The Delta Pilots would never allow Delta branding on Aircraft that aren’t being operated by Pilots on the Delta Seniority List.


This, even more so with the Delta pilots/ALPA fighting it. Can't speak for how the company is treating them but I know many are upset on the reliance of these "partners" for international flying.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
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juliuswong
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:13 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
There is no doubt that this is simply a continuation of DL's "JV with ownership stake" approach to airline partnerships over the past several years.

In the back of my mind, I cannot help but wonder whether Warren Buffet may have had a hand in the evolution and execution of the LATAM deal. I suspect that Buffet and Bastian may have had more than one friendly chat over drinks and dinner since Berkshire Hathaway began upping their investment in DL.

If in fact we are witnessing the evolution of a new DL-lead global airline alliance, beyond LATAM, what other shocking new members might be forthcoming?


AI is always an option, but they are such a mess, it may not be looked on as a wise investment and with so much competition, it may not be salvageable.

And there’s always the CX rumor every year that they are leaving OneWorld for Star. DL could shock everyone and jump in. SQ also doesn’t seem to be that tied to Star despite being a founding member.

Anything is at stake now

A minor correction: Singapore Airlines was not one of the five founding members in 1997. They were Thai, United, SAS, Air Canada and Lufthansa. Singapore Airlines joined in 2000.
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strfyr51
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 pm

jayunited wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
This right here. I think Delta is aiming for a global airline in the sense of one brand and eventually one company when cross border mergers and traffic rights are not an issue.


I don't disagree with what you are saying I'm just not sure we will achieve what you have stated in this century. Allowing cross border mergers traffic rights not being an issue would require a level of corporation between the governments of the world it would require a level of trust that simply doesn't exist today. I'm not sure any government would even entertain the idea of allowing a U.S. airline to merge or completely takeover an airline based in there state and vise versa I don't see the U.S. government allowing a foreign carrier to take over or merge with any U.S. flagged carrier.

I like where your head is at but I'm not sure governing bodies around the world would ever allow something like this to happen.

As far as a global alliance I think DL can pull this off and create their own alliance that works for them in a way SkyTeam has failed. I think with the right airlines DL's alliance could end SkyTeam and could rival OneWorld and even Star. The LATAM move is for sure a wake up call to the other global alliances DL is putting the world on notice one airline at a time. If I was OneWorld or Star I would be calling an emergency meeting to discuss ways airlines within the alliances can better work together. Airlines like UA and SQ, UA and AI in Star need to start working together and bury any grievances. If not who is to say if one day we don't have another headline DL peels SQ away from Star or AI. I think DL can succeed where the Middle East airlines failed and OneWorld and Star need to take this seriously.

If you guys remember? This was already tried By British wanting to buy Into United and Effectively Run United. They bought stock in the company then had to sell it at a loss. LH LENT United about a Billion Dollars to exit Bankruptcy with no added strings attached, At LEAST None they disclosed publicly, But United didn't and Didn't HVE to sell the Pacific division as American's Bob Crandall and Continental's CEO had hoped they would. Hell! I was blown away that they even Talked to CO about a merger, Though it now appears that United was better off with CO than USAir seeing the state of American's operation. And we have guys at United who worked at American. So it wasn't the people because they're sharp! Can't be anything BUT Management and USAir is in the top management. Go Figure...
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
One can't assume that a bunch of minority equity stakes will be successful. DL needs those carriers to earn profits (or throw off enough synergies for DL to book profits); otherwise it's just tying up capital that Delta could use buying new airplanes (or returning to shareholders).

Minority stakes in many carriers certainly didn't work for Swissair in the late 90s. Swissair decided to acquire 49.5 percent of the very successful Italian charter airline Air Europe, the unprofitable Belgian flag carrier, Sabena, and significant stakes in the carriers Air Liberté, AOM, Air Littoral, Volare, LOT, Turkish Airlines, South African Airways, Portugália and LTU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair#Hunter_Strategy

You know how that ended, right? It was with Swissair's liquidation and creation of Swiss International out of former regional carrier Crossair.


Couldn't agree more... People describe this development as 'shocking'. Somehow I sense that in a few years the shocking headline will be "DL files for bankruptcy again after sustaining huge losses from failed investments" :P. They only need to invest in Alitalia as well to speed up that process...

LATAM's failure to secure JV with AA and IAG sealed this deal. I have always been surprised by the rate at which Latin American economies fluctuate.. Small fluctuations for large companies can mean lot of money.



Delta is an airline being run on ego right now. It reminds me of the onset of deregulation when every airline thought they had to fly every where and all the did was chase after bad money with good money. Delta needs to get back to it's core and get back to what got them where they are today and stop trying to rule the airline world. As Delta buys into these airlines they can dictate pricing something they can't do in a standard alliance.


Oh stop with this nonsense. It’s the most profitable, highest market value airline. This is not ego, but a strategic move. If you listened to the investor call you may understand. Except more drivel about Delta without any basis.
 
DWC
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:09 pm

It's actually very bad for consumers.
I had a favourite multicity circuit these past years involving LATAM & AA half the normal price up to early this year.
Then for last 4 months just couldn't get it back on any of the agregators, now I know why.
So I found another circuitous routing for slightly more, guess what : via DL & their buddies.
I even made a post sensing Delta was up to something BIG.

But BIG is not beautiful, you've seen how service has nose-dived in the US since consolidation, LATAM was never stellar but decent, now prices will be aligned along DL's.
Let's see what happens if QR buys any 20% into any US3. Their AA bid failed, but there still are DL & UA to disrupt headline news...
Or if any of the CN3 into one of the US3.

The world is becoming one OLIGOPOLY, BAD ! BAD ! BAD ! BAD !
See Econ Competition 101 or 201, whatever...
Where are Regulators seeing perfect competition is maintained ?
Going the FAA's way of certification ?
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1426
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:22 pm

Nobody even mentioned:
Delta Techops MRO or
Delta Flight Products (interiors)
Engine partnertships are in place with RR and PW.

Among Delta Connection:
Endeavor is wholly owned and Republic is partially owned.

There are probabaly other business entities that are wholly or partially owned that I can't think of.
Last edited by SteelChair on Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
J343
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:25 pm

Sounds like a similar move to Etihad's Equity Alliance... The only difference I guess is that Etihad invested in failing carriers i.e Jet Airways, Air Berlin.
Someone has mentioned an ego move, I sort of agree. The incentive and deal they offered LATAM sounded like a desperate move to increase presence in S.America. They did a similar move on JAL when they were going bankrupt.
 
J343
Posts: 311
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:30 pm

DWC wrote:
It's actually very bad for consumers.
I had a favourite multicity circuit these past years involving LATAM & AA half the normal price up to early this year.
Then for last 4 months just couldn't get it back on any of the agregators, now I know why.
So I found another circuitous routing for slightly more, guess what : via DL & their buddies.
I even made a post sensing Delta was up to something BIG.

But BIG is not beautiful, you've seen how service has nose-dived in the US since consolidation, LATAM was never stellar but decent, now prices will be aligned along DL's.
Let's see what happens if QR buys any 20% into any US3. Their AA bid failed, but there still are DL & UA to disrupt headline news...
Or if any of the CN3 into one of the US3.

The world is becoming one OLIGOPOLY, BAD ! BAD ! BAD ! BAD !
See Econ Competition 101 or 201, whatever...
Where are Regulators seeing perfect competition is maintained ?
Going the FAA's way of certification ?


QR buying into the US3 may be probable but is highly unlikely with DL or UA. Etihad Airways has recently started cosying up with LH Group, and with LH being more of less the voice of Star Alliance, it would seem that a UA and EY partnership might start to develop. QR and DL is very very unlikely. DL has been the most vocal carrier against the ME3. QR and AA had a harmonious relationship in the past until AA cancelled all codeshare agreement.

Whilst it is disappointing that LATAM is leaving oneworld to cost up with DL, I think AA is creating their own problem. AA needs some serious management reshuffle. DP needs to go.
 
DWC
Posts: 607
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:40 pm

Agreed, AA are a shAAme to themselves by any metric, not just the IFE screens gone in domestic flights, bad food & negative customer service.

I was not suggesting the ME3 or CN3 actually buying into the US3, but showing the outcry that would produce.
DL into LATAM should stir the same ( or any US3 for that matter )

Skyteam is in trouble, last time I heard EY had cosied with AF & KLM, but if they are going to StarAlliance, then shows Skyteam is shedding blood & shark LH eating way too many fish.
 
J343
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:03 am

DWC wrote:
Agreed, AA are a shAAme to themselves by any metric, not just the IFE screens gone in domestic flights, bad food & negative customer service.

I was not suggesting the ME3 or CN3 actually buying into the US3, but showing the outcry that would produce.
DL into LATAM should stir the same ( or any US3 for that matter )

Skyteam is in trouble, last time I heard EY had cosied with AF & KLM, but if they are going to StarAlliance, then shows Skyteam is shedding blood & shark LH eating way too many fish.


Whilst I personally find AA to have the best long haul product out of the US3, I personally find their service to be shocking. I regularly fly AA100/AA101 at least twice a year and often will be under a BA ticket, I have argued with AA ground staff at JFK with regards to baggage allowance where a BA ticket gives me 2x32kgs with AA only giving 2x23kgs. AA crew are a hit and miss, I find them to be extremely rude and have no people skills on the majority of the time. AA has great onboard amenities, in fact their IFE offers more movies compared to QR. I also find their seats to be a very comfortable. Food is a hit and miss again. But what ruins it for me is their poor customer service. BA on the other hand has planes with dated interiors but their crew are outstanding.

With regards to DL, I find EB a big hypocrite. He makes a a bug deal out of foreign airlines buying equity stakes in other airlines when DL has bought VS, AF-KLM shares. You are absolutely right, SkyTeam is in trouble. Perhaps that is one of the main reasons why DL has offered LATAM such incentives because they see a huge potential. Parker, Bastian and Muñoz are all different in their ways. Parker seems to be the du×best, Bastian being a hypocrite and an egotistical man with Muñoz.. well..

Etihad has learned their lessons when Jet Airways and Air Berlin collapsed. LH has extensive coverage in Europe and that is perhaps one of the reasons why they started cosying up with the LH group. As I said, it will be a matter of time until LH, UA and EY will have a threesome, perhaps even AC and NZ. BA, IB and QR have no issues with each other. As a matter of fact, with the exception of AA and QF, QR seems to get along very well with other oneworld airlines. A DL-EK relationship is extremely likely. I am getting the impression that DL is trying to prove themselves and are wanting to be the EK of the USA. Who does DL have in the Middle East? MEA and Saudia who both don't really bring much into the table. It wont be long until SkyTeam will cease to exist and see a DL-AF-KL-VA-AZ-JJ-MU-KE alliance. DL has lost out on JL which frankly I am glad about, had it pushed through, I am sure NRT/HND-Asia routes will see mainly DL metal as these were the rumours back then.

oneworld might be the smallest of the alliances but being too big like Star Alliance and SkyTeam will or might only create more overlaps or more problems for members. Yes, oneworld will have a gap in S.America but as may have mentioned, AA has a pretty strong presence in S.America and I don't see AA losing out on MIA. Also for S.America-Europe/Africa we have IB, BA and soon, Royal Air Maroc. The latter will be launching Brazil soon and Royal Air Maroc has a pretty decent operation in Africa. In the Middle East, Asia and Australia we have QR, CX/KA, JL, MH and QF and Fiji Airways (oneworld connect). CX/KA and MH has a respectable network in Asia with MH having a pretty strong SE.Asia operations. Russia sees S7 which is pretty decent. And TPAC flights has CX, JL-AA, QF-AA.
What does that leave oneworld? China and S.America (2nd tier cities, maybe?) and Canada. AA should make amends with QR, that will help AA achieve their ambition of returning to African and Indian markets.
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
Delta is an airline being run on ego right now. It reminds me of the onset of deregulation when every airline thought they had to fly every where and all the did was chase after bad money with good money. Delta needs to get back to it's core and get back to what got them where they are today and stop trying to rule the airline world. As Delta buys into these airlines they can dictate pricing something they can't do in a standard alliance.


Overwhelming consensus will tell you that Delta is currently the best run airline in the world, and objective facts will tell you that Delta generates more profits than even their larger primary competitor. If the shareholders are happy, and the employees are happy, and the customers are happy, why would Delta need to 'get back to it's core' whatever that means? Literally nothing is going wrong except you don't feel your beloved DTW is getting enough attention.

As for a new Delta alliance driven by equity stakes and joint ventures, this seems inevitable. Delta single-handedly holds in their hands the fate of the traditional alliance model, and for them to exit SkyTeam and bring their JV and equity partners with them would possibly force the hands of American and United. The traditional model is antiquated, and is ripe for replacement.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1075
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:31 pm

J343 wrote:
I regularly fly AA100/AA101 at least twice a year and often will be under a BA ticket, I have argued with AA ground staff at JFK with regards to baggage allowance where a BA ticket gives me 2x32kgs with AA only giving 2x23kgs.


There is nothing to argue about there. You claim to be a frequent flyer, so you should know that the operating carrier's baggage rules apply irrespective of where and how you purchased your ticket. Even if you purchase with BA, AA's baggage policy applies. Arguing with the ground staff?? They do not make the baggage rules, they only enforce the rules.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1482
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:45 pm

klm617 wrote:
Delta needs to get back to it's core and get back to what got them where they are today...


I would say moving away from the carrier it once was is exactly why they're excelling in the market.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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stl07
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:56 pm

ual763 wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand

Major Scope and possible Anti Trust issues with that. The Delta Pilots would never allow Delta branding on Aircraft that aren’t being operated by Pilots on the Delta Seniority List.


Not to mention, a good number of them don’t have the best safety records and even worse safety cultures. An airline like Delta isn’t going to want their name or logo on a few of these. This is pure fantasy.

Love how everyone on a.net takes everything so seriously
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 7245
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Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:59 pm

Delta isn't going to get SQ or Vistara (of which SQ owns about 49%). Just because an airline doesn't have good relations with a US airline doesnt mean it has bad relations with other blue chip airlines.

If Garuda ever gets it's act together, if would make a great SE Asia partner, or Vietnam Airlines.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:59 pm

J343 wrote:
DWC wrote:
Agreed, AA are a shAAme to themselves by any metric, not just the IFE screens gone in domestic flights, bad food & negative customer service.

I was not suggesting the ME3 or CN3 actually buying into the US3, but showing the outcry that would produce.
DL into LATAM should stir the same ( or any US3 for that matter )

Skyteam is in trouble, last time I heard EY had cosied with AF & KLM, but if they are going to StarAlliance, then shows Skyteam is shedding blood & shark LH eating way too many fish.


Whilst I personally find AA to have the best long haul product out of the US3, I personally find their service to be shocking. I regularly fly AA100/AA101 at least twice a year and often will be under a BA ticket, I have argued with AA ground staff at JFK with regards to baggage allowance where a BA ticket gives me 2x32kgs with AA only giving 2x23kgs. AA crew are a hit and miss, I find them to be extremely rude and have no people skills on the majority of the time. AA has great onboard amenities, in fact their IFE offers more movies compared to QR. I also find their seats to be a very comfortable. Food is a hit and miss again. But what ruins it for me is their poor customer service. BA on the other hand has planes with dated interiors but their crew are outstanding.

With regards to DL, I find EB a big hypocrite. He makes a a bug deal out of foreign airlines buying equity stakes in other airlines when DL has bought VS, AF-KLM shares. You are absolutely right, SkyTeam is in trouble. Perhaps that is one of the main reasons why DL has offered LATAM such incentives because they see a huge potential. Parker, Bastian and Muñoz are all different in their ways. Parker seems to be the du×best, Bastian being a hypocrite and an egotistical man with Muñoz.. well..

Etihad has learned their lessons when Jet Airways and Air Berlin collapsed. LH has extensive coverage in Europe and that is perhaps one of the reasons why they started cosying up with the LH group. As I said, it will be a matter of time until LH, UA and EY will have a threesome, perhaps even AC and NZ. BA, IB and QR have no issues with each other. As a matter of fact, with the exception of AA and QF, QR seems to get along very well with other oneworld airlines. A DL-EK relationship is extremely likely. I am getting the impression that DL is trying to prove themselves and are wanting to be the EK of the USA. Who does DL have in the Middle East? MEA and Saudia who both don't really bring much into the table. It wont be long until SkyTeam will cease to exist and see a DL-AF-KL-VA-AZ-JJ-MU-KE alliance. DL has lost out on JL which frankly I am glad about, had it pushed through, I am sure NRT/HND-Asia routes will see mainly DL metal as these were the rumours back then.

oneworld might be the smallest of the alliances but being too big like Star Alliance and SkyTeam will or might only create more overlaps or more problems for members. Yes, oneworld will have a gap in S.America but as may have mentioned, AA has a pretty strong presence in S.America and I don't see AA losing out on MIA. Also for S.America-Europe/Africa we have IB, BA and soon, Royal Air Maroc. The latter will be launching Brazil soon and Royal Air Maroc has a pretty decent operation in Africa. In the Middle East, Asia and Australia we have QR, CX/KA, JL, MH and QF and Fiji Airways (oneworld connect). CX/KA and MH has a respectable network in Asia with MH having a pretty strong SE.Asia operations. Russia sees S7 which is pretty decent. And TPAC flights has CX, JL-AA, QF-AA.
What does that leave oneworld? China and S.America (2nd tier cities, maybe?) and Canada. AA should make amends with QR, that will help AA achieve their ambition of returning to African and Indian markets.


AT already flies to GIG and GRU.

As for DL/EK, can’t see it. DL will not be playing second fiddle to EK and EK has no need to play second fiddle to DL. Mind you DL has been the most vocal of the US3 against the ME3.


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Fly the Flag!!!!
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:57 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


As for a new Delta alliance driven by equity stakes and joint ventures, this seems inevitable. Delta single-handedly holds in their hands the fate of the traditional alliance model, and for them to exit SkyTeam and bring their JV and equity partners with them would possibly force the hands of American and United. The traditional model is antiquated, and is ripe for replacement.



Exactly. And as OW and *Alliance start thinking equity investments, it could provide Delta further "Latam-type" opportunities, perhaps.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8288
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:17 pm

If an alliance is still a thing one premium carrier alliance and one low-cost carrier alliance is all world needs. I sincerely doubt all three premium alliances will survive in the long run.

How about ICAO mandate passenger and baggage transfer between two scheduled carriers at any airport. They can charge a fee for transfer or negotiate a pass-thru with a partner airline. Delta would benefit much better than getting saddled with non-performing alliance members or get called out by union for signing JV with low labor cost base airlines.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Lootess
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:15 am

What seems to lost to people is that Delta, Air France, and Korean Air founded Skyteam together. It's not going away just because it's above them now, they are free to make their own JVs, and code-share with non-ST partners just like how AF/KLM and Korean Air have been doing with LATAM before this deal.

Delta already makes their point known with their Skymiles tiered-level partnership. Where JVs are #1 and generic Skyteam always below that.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3538
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:28 am

Ed Bastian wasn't kidding when he said that the concept of alliances is in the past. Alan Joyce could have said the same thing years ago when Qantas (oneworld) and China Eastern (SkyTeam) entered into a JV between Australia and mainland China, connecting two major business centres in the far Eastern Hemisphere.

I also suspect that Ed Bastian is taking advantage of how deep in debt American is. The reported amount of the deal has been widely $1.9B, but it's really $2.25B as Delta is paying LATAM the fee to exit oneworld, and that doesn't include the 4 A359s it's buying from LATAM (likely including 2 currently leased to Qatar Airways and 2 slated for delivery next year), plus the remainder of LATAM's A350 order book, which would likely either be A350-900s or A350-1000s for Virgin Atlantic. Delta is funding this partially with cash on hand; American never could.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:53 am

DWC wrote:
It's actually very bad for consumers.


The world is becoming one OLIGOPOLY, BAD ! BAD ! BAD ! BAD !
See Econ Competition 101 or 201, whatever...
Where are Regulators seeing perfect competition is maintained ?
Going the FAA's way of certification ?



Spot on mate! I call it END-STAGE CAPITALISM
The U.S. Government btw and also, is a corporate plutocratic oligarchy, and those same companies control regulation, and the media so we are driving quickly toward the end. I think its good because this is not sustainable. We should not be afraid, and we should not go gently into the night.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:07 am

With new technology and so many point to point nonstops that once required a stop over in a hub system. I’m sure Delta is realizing that direct nonstops are not as profitable as routing pax through alliance partners hub. One big problem is the Delta pilots as it undoubtedly raises questions on international pilots job security.
 
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vhqpa
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:21 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:04 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand



Aside from other issues mentioned all those airlines have their own brand recognition in their own markets. I highly doubt they would willingly abandon their own brands to essentially become franchisees for a foreign airline.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
DWC
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:34 am

vhqpa wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand

Aside from other issues mentioned all those airlines have their own brand recognition in their own markets. I highly doubt they would willingly abandon their own brands to essentially become franchisees for a foreign airline.

That is only one of the obstacles on this fancy buy-outs.

chinhimlai is also on a similar QR spree acquiring OW jewels : this actually betokens what DL & QR are up to.
LH have a cosy phalange of airlines of their own & keep growing not just because of the demise of AB or Adria.
Regulators will see to it this crazyness does not happen, we don't want any new Standard Oil or AT&T monopolizing the world of civil aviation.

Alliances was the way to go, in a modernized form so as to satisfy all players, where each decides for itself like SQ, DL, LH, AF-KLM do.
Any big airline playing Uncle Sam to the rest of the crowd is actually diminishing competition & working against consumers/citizens. The fact is some airlines like LH, the US3, QR or EK have become so large they are playing oligopolistic pricing & strategies.
How that was let to happen shows how weak sound market economy tenets have become.

Conversely the new AA have been actively working at destroying their brand & strengths, have virtually abandonned JKF & BOS to DL, while severing international flights from ORD, diving DL's DTW the leaderhip in the lakes region too. DL's current hub network is so strong, UA's is not bad but comes second, that I don't see any US airline able to compete effectively with DL. As to AA, other than DFW & MIA, both well positionned, CLT, PHL, PHX are distant thirds in the grand scheme.
 
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ZKNCL
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:00 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:08 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand


Congratulations to the 6 or so people who completely missed that this was an obvious joke and felt the intrinsic need to try deconstruct this.
 
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SCFlyer
Posts: 578
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:21 pm

QR doesn't exactly have a track record of running equity airlines well either. Although, QR's record is not as bad as SR/EY's track record on equity.
SQ doesn't have a great record on equity either (e.g VS, NZ/AN (indirectly via NZ stake), VA). SQ's investment in UK (Vistara) is questionable considering it took years for them to post a profit.

Getting back on topic, although not perfect, the likes of DL and LH has slightly better track records on operating/managing equity carriers.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7791
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:26 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
J343 wrote:
I regularly fly AA100/AA101 at least twice a year and often will be under a BA ticket, I have argued with AA ground staff at JFK with regards to baggage allowance where a BA ticket gives me 2x32kgs with AA only giving 2x23kgs.


There is nothing to argue about there. You claim to be a frequent flyer, so you should know that the operating carrier's baggage rules apply irrespective of where and how you purchased your ticket. Even if you purchase with BA, AA's baggage policy applies. Arguing with the ground staff?? They do not make the baggage rules, they only enforce the rules.


No, they don't, not for itins originating or ending in the U.S. You're more than seven years out of date on this one - the U.S. DOT changed the rules for marketing carrier baggage allowances January 2012.

Start at the bottom of page 35. https://www.transportation.gov/sites/do ... 0FAQ_2.pdf
 
johns624
Posts: 2734
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:43 pm

ZKNCL wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Soon will we see:
Delta Latin (ex-LATAM)
Delta UK(ex-Virgin Atlantic)
Delta Europa (ex-Air Europa)
Delta Arabia (ex-MEA)
Delta Indian (ex-Jet Airways)
Delta Pacific (ex-Korean Air)
Delta China (ex-China Eastern)
Delta African (ex-Kenya Airways)
Delta Australian (ex-Virgin Australian)
Westjet and AeroMexico operated under Delta Mainline and Delta connection brand


Congratulations to the 6 or so people who completely missed that this was an obvious joke and felt the intrinsic need to try deconstruct this.
Don't be so sure. He's the same poster who thought that EXT should be rebuilt with 6 runways and be the major airport in the UK. In a current thread, he said that MIA should add another runway and new terminal for DL & LATAM at the cost of 10's of billions of dollars. He's also come up with several other off-the-wall ideas.
 
umichman
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Delta will create a mega global alliance?

Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
J343 wrote:
I regularly fly AA100/AA101 at least twice a year and often will be under a BA ticket, I have argued with AA ground staff at JFK with regards to baggage allowance where a BA ticket gives me 2x32kgs with AA only giving 2x23kgs.


There is nothing to argue about there. You claim to be a frequent flyer, so you should know that the operating carrier's baggage rules apply irrespective of where and how you purchased your ticket. Even if you purchase with BA, AA's baggage policy applies. Arguing with the ground staff?? They do not make the baggage rules, they only enforce the rules.


No, they don't, not for itins originating or ending in the U.S. You're more than seven years out of date on this one - the U.S. DOT changed the rules for marketing carrier baggage allowances January 2012.

Start at the bottom of page 35. https://www.transportation.gov/sites/do ... 0FAQ_2.pdf


The rule only requires the marketing carrier must disclose the fee differences between it's flights and other operating carriers. It doesn't say that the exact same fees and allowances must apply to all flights.

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