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GuillaumePhilly
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Boeing settles MAX deaths - $1.2+ million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:02 pm

Looks like Boeing has settled the first cases around the 737 Max Lion Air crash.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airline-news-boeing-lawsuit--2640631202.html
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited spelling in title
 
sincx
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:05 pm

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
 
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Tugger
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:12 pm

Sounds about right.

Tugg
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LAXintl
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:12 pm

Probably reasonable for Indonesia.

Even U.S government and agencies such as the FAA have a price of a life when calculating cost-benefit rule changes and such. Latest figure FAA has been using is $6mil for U.S. citizen. Other agencies have their own estimates - for example, $6.9mil by the EPA.

Really a very basic yet important statistical and actuarial thing.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:12 pm

sincx wrote:
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."


No. Do a Poisson (or cashflow essentially) analysis, not a linear one :)
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:15 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
sincx wrote:
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."


No. Do a Poisson (or cashflow essentially) analysis, not a linear one :)


Essentially what Ford did with the Pinto. This is still done in many industries, but it was dragged into the public eye with the Pinto fires.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:25 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Probably reasonable for Indonesia.

Even U.S government and agencies such as the FAA have a price of a life when calculating cost-benefit rule changes and such. Latest figure FAA has been using is $6mil for U.S. citizen. Other agencies have their own estimates - for example, $6.9mil by the EPA.

Really a very basic yet important statistical and actuarial thing.

Exactly. If a life is too highly values, then swaddle everyone in cotton and halt so much economic activity industry stops. Value a life too low, and that is a problem.

When the US was on the gold standard, a life lost per $1 million spent was acceptable. It wasn't pay out a million, it was 'don't investigate a factory/firm' if loss of life was below that. Practices were considered safe. Inflation adjusting, that would be one life lost per 737 built or per year flown. Huh, we grounded the MAX when it was still better than the old standard.

I shouldn't be flippant, but life has to have an actuarial value. The $1.2 million seems about right. I would negotiate it up, but that is just my opinion.

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flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:29 pm

I believe an analysis in the uk after several run red lights on the railways effectively put the value of a life at £15million. The CQC (care quality commission) in the uk also put a value on ‘quality time’ and use this to determine what the amount of money to spend on drugs should be, 1month in pain being valued at less than 1month happy.
1.2million usd does seem low. (admittedly haven’t clicked the link as I’m on my phone)

Fred


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Cubsrule
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:45 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
I believe an analysis in the uk after several run red lights on the railways effectively put the value of a life at £15million. The CQC (care quality commission) in the uk also put a value on ‘quality time’ and use this to determine what the amount of money to spend on drugs should be, 1month in pain being valued at less than 1month happy.
1.2million usd does seem low. (admittedly haven’t clicked the link as I’m on my phone)

Fred


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What folks seem to be missing is that, clickbaity thread title aside, the article says no such thing. It says that Boeing settled for at least $1.2 million per person. And a settlement in a wrongful death lawsuit only represents the "value" of the life in a lawsuit with the peculiar set of facts. So if liability is extremely doubtful and the parties settle a wrongful death case for $50,000, that in no way means that the decedent's life was only worth $50,000 or anything of the sort.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ikramerica
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:50 pm

sincx wrote:
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

That’s only true, Tyler, if you can hide it from regulators or the press. Which is hard if the Scranton branch finds out.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:11 pm

Since we are all over this as Boeing's value of human life, is anyone going to bring up the IATA value which each plane ticket represents?
Is it even listed on e-tickets conditions of travel?
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 741_1.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/27/air-cra ... -work.html
https://www.airpassengerrights.eu/en/ai ... dents.html
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:40 pm

I know for a fact that my personal life insurance policy is below 1.2 million usd.
learning never stops.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:50 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
I know for a fact that my personal life insurance policy is below 1.2 million usd.

True. My family would prefer I perish in a plane crash than a car crash.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:50 pm

GuillaumePhilly wrote:
Looks like Boeing has settled the first cases around the 737 Max Lion Air crash.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airline-news-boeing-lawsuit--2640631202.html


This is such a clickbait headline that is inflammatory.

Every life has a monetary value, there are industries out of it.
Last edited by jbs2886 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:04 pm

Folks in Boca Chica village, where SpaceX is building and launching stuff were just appraised at $3 million each.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:05 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
GuillaumePhilly wrote:
Looks like Boeing has settled the first cases around the 737 Max Lion Air crash.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airline-news-boeing-lawsuit--2640631202.html


This is such a clickbait headline that is inflammatory. It’s offensive TBH.

Every life has a monetary value, there are industries out of it.


I do agree. The title is a bit insensitive. Guillaume could have been a bit 'gentler' about it.
learning never stops.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:08 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
GuillaumePhilly wrote:
Looks like Boeing has settled the first cases around the 737 Max Lion Air crash.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airline-news-boeing-lawsuit--2640631202.html


This is such a clickbait headline that is inflammatory. It’s offensive TBH.

Every life has a monetary value, there are industries out of it.


I do agree. The title is a bit insensitive. Guillaume could have been a bit 'gentler' about it.


I’m more bothered by the insinuation that Boeing did something wrong here.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:35 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

This is such a clickbait headline that is inflammatory. It’s offensive TBH.

Every life has a monetary value, there are industries out of it.


I do agree. The title is a bit insensitive. Guillaume could have been a bit 'gentler' about it.


I’m more bothered by the insinuation that Boeing did something wrong here.


Agreed. And it wouldn't matter if Boeing paid out 1.2 trillion. Some people would still cry foul.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:36 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I’m more bothered by the insinuation that Boeing did something wrong here.


Agreed. Guillaume has an agenda and his shameful thread should be removed.

After all, this was not an offer from Boeing, this was an accepted settlement. The headline could also read "Victim's families put a price tag on their loved one's lives".
 
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AerolineasAR343
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:54 pm

Ha! No way I'm worth that much.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:01 am

It is interesting to see how people value their own life, as in their life insurance. Less than 10% have life insurance exceeding $ 1M

In the US, the payments out in Worker's Comp for a workplace fatality are dismally low. There are factors but in Washington State it is less than $5K/month. So a $ 1M payout takes 200 months to receive, so over 15 years.

This $1.2 M per death considering Indonesia wages sounds in line with other settlements, the lawyer cited that other cases in Indonesia plane crashes were on the order of 600K.

The lawyers have lots of formulae for these things that have been regularly used in court. Factors such as annual earnings, age, dependents, etc come into play. In the US, a bank executive would be able to claim a far higher value than say a student. The country of the Airline, the location of the accident, etc. also play into the value.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:39 am

jbs2886 wrote:
GuillaumePhilly wrote:
Looks like Boeing has settled the first cases around the 737 Max Lion Air crash.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airline-news-boeing-lawsuit--2640631202.html


This is such a clickbait headline that is inflammatory.

Every life has a monetary value, there are industries out of it.


The Reuters article that Fliegerfaust copied with no original or transformative comment of his own had this title:

Boeing settles first Lion Air lawsuits for at least $1.2 million apiece: sources
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:52 am

If you got paid by the airline in a plane crash, can you also get paid by the life insurance policy? In other industries, it would be considered double dipping.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:00 am

AerolineasAR343 wrote:
Ha! No way I'm worth that much.


Is it a coincidence that being from Argentina made me think the exact same? 1.2 mill seems a lot, with or without devaluation. Don't tell my girlfriend!
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!
 
SWADawg
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:47 am

ikramerica wrote:
sincx wrote:
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

That’s only true, Tyler, if you can hide it from regulators or the press. Which is hard if the Scranton branch finds out.

You just broke the first rule of Fight Club!
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
Texas77
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:50 am

IPFreely wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
I’m more bothered by the insinuation that Boeing did something wrong here.


Agreed. Guillaume has an agenda and his shameful thread should be removed.

After all, this was not an offer from Boeing, this was an accepted settlement. The headline could also read "Victim's families put a price tag on their loved one's lives".


yeah, this is a bit of a shameful, revisionist history way of looking at this. even if some companies have to look at what a lost life might "cost them", it is not like those of us who HAVE JOBS suddenly become robots who only view a human life with a dollar value, it is just an unfortunate part of some businesses that it is a real impact, and thus they have to deal with it. construction companies, the military, DOCTORS- they all have to think about the same things, but we don't think of them as some corporate monsters who only count the bucks and don't care about people
 
gokmengs
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:09 am

jbs2886 wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

This is such a clickbait headline that is inflammatory. It’s offensive TBH.

Every life has a monetary value, there are industries out of it.


I do agree. The title is a bit insensitive. Guillaume could have been a bit 'gentler' about it.


I’m more bothered by the insinuation that Boeing did something wrong here.

Sure, what would be the correct thread title and post? Something other than Reuters did? Would you like “MCAS victims to receive 1.2 million USD” please enlighten us
Edit: typo
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Boeing puts a price tag on your life-- $1.2 million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:16 pm

gokmengs wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:

I do agree. The title is a bit insensitive. Guillaume could have been a bit 'gentler' about it.


I’m more bothered by the insinuation that Boeing did something wrong here.

Sure, what would be the correct thread title and post? Something other than Reuters did? Would you like “MCAS victims to receive 1.2 million USD” please enlighten us
Edit: typo


The way the title reads now is good. The inflammatory 'Boeing decides what a life s worth' part is gone.
learning never stops.
 
aeropix
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Re: Boeing settles MAX deaths - $1.2+ million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:48 pm

If the "price" in the title does turn out to be accurate (at least on average) then the total cost of ALL those lives lost will be equivalent to the list price of just ONE of Boeing's wide bodies more or less. Seems very little financial incentive to increase safety if the total "cost" of these two completely fatal accidents is so cheap in comparison to the retail price of their products.
 
Confuscius
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Re: Boeing settles MAX deaths - $1.2+ million USD

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:08 pm

$1,200,000 equals to 17,033,760,000 Rupiahs. :eek:
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