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zeke
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:34 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
Is this enough of an issue that I should change by flight from a 737 -800 to a CRJ900 on Wednesday? Is there any chance inspections will have started by then? Also, is a 737-900ER considered a NG? Thank you!!


I would avoid driving to and from the airport, that will be far more dangerous than taking the flight.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Andy33
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:26 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
Is this enough of an issue that I should change by flight from a 737 -800 to a CRJ900 on Wednesday? Is there any chance inspections will have started by then? Also, is a 737-900ER considered a NG? Thank you!!


Impossible to give a meaningful answer without knowing which airline is involved. Some airlines have quite heavily used 737NGs - lots of shortish journeys racking up the cycles, while others use their on longer runs so fewer cycles in the day. Also some have younger fleets than others.
Yes, the 737-900ER is an NG, but this model appeared later in the NG's lifecycle so it is unlikely any planes have reached the stage where they might be at risk. In fact 737-700, 737-800, and 737-900s are all NGs
 
CWL757
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:30 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
Is this enough of an issue that I should change by flight from a 737 -800 to a CRJ900 on Wednesday? Is there any chance inspections will have started by then? Also, is a 737-900ER considered a NG? Thank you!!

This is a bit extreme don't you think? The 73NG is absolutely fine. Nearly every plane in the sky has had some sort of issue. As already mentioned, driving to the airport is way more dangerous. (the 739 is an NG by the way)
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
1989worstyear
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:53 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
How different are these NG assemblies compared to an older variant, like the -300 or or even Jurassic? Do they share any common parts of design features etc...?

I'm not well versed on the structures side of things.


The 737NG has a new bigger wing and thicker fuselage skin since the plane was designed to fly higher, faster and farther. Thicker skin was needed when the airplane max altitude (service ceiling) was raised from 37,000ft to 41,000 feet. The thicker skin and higher payload resulted in loads changing through the entire fuselage structure. The 737NG was also developed in CATIA unlike airplanes from the 1980s. On the structure side it is very different.


Thanks for the detailed response.

I know the late '80s are usually referred to as an extension of the '90s and not the real '80s, but wasn't Airbus using CATIA in 1987 during the A320 design phase?
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:


Can anybody point to the FAA order which specifies which NGs are to receive the inspection?

Over the coming days, we will work closely with our customers to implement a recommended inspection plan for certain airplanes in the fleet.

Built in xxxx-xxxx? More than xx,xxx cycles?
 
Flashy16
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:04 pm

I don’t think I have quoted correctly....I promise I will get off this forum shortly....to the poster that asked which airline,I am flying Delta and it’s a 737-800 (then a 900 ER in next flight, but can’t change that!). Thank you!
 
sxf24
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:09 pm

This is not the first time there’s been a model with picklefork “issues.” I haven’t seen anyone mention the other notable type flying around today...
 
WIederling
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:48 pm

sxf24 wrote:
This is not the first time there’s been a model with picklefork “issues.” I haven’t seen anyone mention the other notable type flying around today...


... don't let us die unenlightened !?
Murphy is an optimist
 
bgm
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:56 pm

sxf24 wrote:
This is not the first time there’s been a model with picklefork “issues.” I haven’t seen anyone mention the other notable type flying around today...


The 767?
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:52 am

Few issues found. More detail:. FAA recommending inspection at 26,000 FC.

https://m.timesofindia.com/business/ind ... 372286.cms

Low incidence of findings. So far 3 problem aircraft. All in 36,000+ FC aircraft, all US based.

I see the inspection takes an hour with a boroscope. So at least airworthiness can be determined quickly.

These issues happen. For example, hundreds of CFM-56 engines on the A320 and 737NG are undergoing inspection because a seal wasn't heat treated correctly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-460972/

Lightsaber
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planecane
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:34 am

lightsaber wrote:
Few issues found. More detail:. FAA recommending inspection at 26,000 FC.

https://m.timesofindia.com/business/ind ... 372286.cms

Low incidence of findings. So far 3 problem aircraft. All in 36,000+ FC aircraft, all US based.

I see the inspection takes an hour with a boroscope. So at least airworthiness can be determined quickly.

These issues happen. For example, hundreds of CFM-56 engines on the A320 and 737NG are undergoing inspection because a seal wasn't heat treated correctly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-460972/

Lightsaber


Thanks for posting that article. You would think that it would be easier to find information on something like this. Perhaps, I don't know, an easy to find link on the FAA website.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
WIederling wrote:
zeke wrote:
Other parts are designed for safe life, they are designed to exceed the life of the aircraft without redundant load paths, like landing gear and this pickle fork.

I'd put the pickle fork(s) in the fail safe area.?
there is a bunch of them distributed over the wingbox length ( every frame there seem to have one).

I may have misinterpreted the available 3d drawing !?


Yeah, I've also been trying to imagine what this part is exactly - if it is describing just a couple of large parts, then I'm guessing it's maybe a vertically placed reinforcement of front and rear spars, with the "fork" running out at the top and bottom flanges outside the fuselage. If there are a bunch of them, then it sounds more like a finger-plate - a horizontal "comb" extending out of the fuselage onto the wing skin, with the "fork" running out to the stringers.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
highlanderfil
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:36 pm

Glad I found this thread. As a super nervous flyer, I tend to favor the “get me off this plane, where is the nearest Amtrak station?” thought trail until the Xanax kicks in. I’ve got a few NG flights (DL and AK) coming up soon, so, naturally, my blood pressure has been somewhat elevated by this bit of news. Reading the opinions of the informed helps a lot.
 
basspaul
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:48 pm

mga707 wrote:
MBSDALHOU wrote:

And why on earth is it called a pickle fork?!


A pickle fork is a piece of cutlery. Small, two-pronged fork. Useful for spearing pickles in a jar, or if one is classy, on a plate. I'd just use my fingers. This part resembles one blown up to many times the size.


During the design phase, often the designers will start using nicknames for parts based on what they look like. I've worked with "church fittings", "hockey sticks", "diving boards", "flimsy bracket", etc. Sometimes the operators come up with the names, the "hell hole" on the Bell 205, 212/412 for example.
 
sealevel
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:40 pm

Are test frames still in place for the NG and MAX ? Thought their job was to beat the frame to failure to confirm
cycle life expectations of critical components.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:37 pm

Sealevel,

The test frames were run to 2X cycles and hours to validate the design.

But issues are found. Take the A320 wing corrosion issue that ended up effecting 7% of the fleet (hundreds of A320s):
http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/3402061/C ... rbus-wings

It is possible, due to the tiny number of issues found, the pickle fork issue is a poor batch of aluminum, heat treat, coating, or damage upon install (not following process). If you see my link above, only 3 aircraft found with the issue.

Corrosion is tested to determine material properties. Sometimes it is a bad grounding path creating weaker parts as there is a ground loop.

I didn't get excited about the A320 issue (far more minor than the A380 incompatible thermal expansion issue that requires a titanium part put in between at a high cost per airframe).

Even the MD-80 was found to need doublers. Problems are found in every aircraft. For example, the C-series, errr... A220 needed a few dozen brackets in the tail replaced. Early 767s need new pressure bulkheads, but at cycle lives beyond what their Airbus competitors are certified for.

Another example, the 737 needs a brutal bulkhead inspection at 85,000 cycles. I was shocked to find out 733s were getting that inspection. But hey, if a heavy maintenance on an A320 is only good for 20,000 cycles (a third of certified life), having 25,000 cycles to go was enough to have enough economic benefit.

It takes a while to really find the root cause and an economical repair for these discoveries. For example, the E190 wing spar cracking was a terrifying find:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1403321

21,000 cycles and 33,000 hours for that set of three E190. So even earlier, but other than time and cost to impliment an inspection and fix, a non-issue.

Lightsaber
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mrbots
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:38 pm

It's impossible to have a completely accurate estimate to guarantee every frame will last to a certain amount of cycles, there's to many variables and there's too much variance in those variables, especially for something so highly and variably stressed as the load transfer point between the wing and the fuselage. A minor variance in the metallurgy, an edge cut just a little bit sharper due to a worn die or cutting tip, a hard landing, severe turbulence, minor corrosion, etc. will all effect the amount of cycles the wing root can take before forming cracks. Fatigue is fickle and hard to predict exactly when it will happen. There's a reason we're still discovering new fatigue issues to this day. It's not just Boeing or the aircraft industry. At least metal fatigue is fairly easy to detect and repair. Anyone know how CFRP reacts as it ages and how involved the repairs are?
 
sealevel
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:08 pm

Thanks Lightsaber for the data, happy monday!
 
VSMUT
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:38 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
How different are these NG assemblies compared to an older variant, like the -300 or or even Jurassic? Do they share any common parts of design features etc...?

I'm not well versed on the structures side of things.


The 737NG has a new bigger wing and thicker fuselage skin since the plane was designed to fly higher, faster and farther. Thicker skin was needed when the airplane max altitude (service ceiling) was raised from 37,000ft to 41,000 feet. The thicker skin and higher payload resulted in loads changing through the entire fuselage structure. The 737NG was also developed in CATIA unlike airplanes from the 1980s. On the structure side it is very different.


Thanks for the detailed response.

I know the late '80s are usually referred to as an extension of the '90s and not the real '80s, but wasn't Airbus using CATIA in 1987 during the A320 design phase?


I believe most designs have been converted to digital designs today, almost certainly the A320 included. Even the latest Il-76 has been redone in CATIA.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:38 pm

highlanderfil wrote:
Glad I found this thread. As a super nervous flyer, I tend to favor the “get me off this plane, where is the nearest Amtrak station?” thought trail until the Xanax kicks in. I’ve got a few NG flights (DL and AK) coming up soon, so, naturally, my blood pressure has been somewhat elevated by this bit of news. Reading the opinions of the informed helps a lot.


Alaska's aircraft are spring chickens compared to many other airlines. Very few 'cycles' in comparison and one of the youngest fleets in the industry...only exceeded by two 'new' carriers (NK and F9)
 
highlanderfil
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:57 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
highlanderfil wrote:
Glad I found this thread. As a super nervous flyer, I tend to favor the “get me off this plane, where is the nearest Amtrak station?” thought trail until the Xanax kicks in. I’ve got a few NG flights (DL and AK) coming up soon, so, naturally, my blood pressure has been somewhat elevated by this bit of news. Reading the opinions of the informed helps a lot.


Alaska's aircraft are spring chickens compared to many other airlines. Very few 'cycles' in comparison and one of the youngest fleets in the industry...only exceeded by two 'new' carriers (NK and F9)
Good to know. I do have one on a 738 (the other Delta one is a 739, so I can assuuuuume I’m good there?), so not sure about that one, but I guess if I get really panicky, there are 757 flights on the LAX-DTW route, as well.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:40 pm

I am much more concerned about the frequent failures of the Chemtrail systems. You never know when it´s gonna give up the ghost. MTBF is really a concern.
 
OneX123
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:04 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
I don’t think I have quoted correctly....I promise I will get off this forum shortly....to the poster that asked which airline,I am flying Delta and it’s a 737-800 (then a 900 ER in next flight, but can’t change that!). Thank you!


Howdy sir -- while this question may not be taken seriously in the context of this forum (some people get testy behind the computer screen) for someone who may not fly that much I think it's understandable.

This is purely my opinion -- but my opinion is to not worry about it. I flew on a DL -900ER this morning and am on an AA -800 on Thursday. It's perfectly safe and there are much bigger dangers out there...

Let's let the professionals do their work and they'll come to a decision much more accurately than can be found here.

Safe travels my friend!
 
Jacob2877
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:06 pm

Thanks for all the posts. I realize this is a technical
Civil forum but I also am traveling Southwest Airlines in a few weeks. I guess the fear I Have is flying on a 737 with this issue and the aircraft is an older or higher used over 35K flight cycles, and the wings are going to snap off mid flight. Obviously I’m probably being a little ridiculous but that is what these cracks would ultimately lead to. When you read about the technicians statements how this should “never happen” and “expletive that “it’s serious” etc.,It does make me a little leery of flying this particular aircraft.

I did look into some other airlines to take that have airbus but it’s definitely costly and I want to trust everything people are saying on this forum and trust the industry. It’s just a little hard when you already have a slight fear of flying! Thanks all for responding and commenting. I enjoy learning the technical aspects of aircraft.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:13 am

hiflyeras wrote:
highlanderfil wrote:
Glad I found this thread. As a super nervous flyer, I tend to favor the “get me off this plane, where is the nearest Amtrak station?” thought trail until the Xanax kicks in. I’ve got a few NG flights (DL and AK) coming up soon, so, naturally, my blood pressure has been somewhat elevated by this bit of news. Reading the opinions of the informed helps a lot.


Alaska's aircraft are spring chickens compared to many other airlines. Very few 'cycles' in comparison and one of the youngest fleets in the industry...only exceeded by two 'new' carriers (NK and F9)


That doesn't make every AS aircraft young. AS has some 20 year-old 737NGs, too.
 
sodbuster
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:24 am

The aircraft that was found with the crack was undergoing freighter conversion in Shanghai.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:36 am

Jacob2877 wrote:
Thanks for all the posts. I realize this is a technical
Civil forum but I also am traveling Southwest Airlines in a few weeks. I guess the fear I Have is flying on a 737 with this issue and the aircraft is an older or higher used over 35K flight cycles, and the wings are going to snap off mid flight. Obviously I’m probably being a little ridiculous but that is what these cracks would ultimately lead to. When you read about the technicians statements how this should “never happen” and “expletive that “it’s serious” etc.,It does make me a little leery of flying this particular aircraft.

I did look into some other airlines to take that have airbus but it’s definitely costly and I want to trust everything people are saying on this forum and trust the industry. It’s just a little hard when you already have a slight fear of flying! Thanks all for responding and commenting. I enjoy learning the technical aspects of aircraft.


It’s just as likely, or even more likely, that airbus flight will suffer a dual engine failure due to flying into a flock of birds.

The odds are incredibly slim to the point of being statistical noise and ultimately shear chance. Would you pay $200 right now for a lottery ticket that guaranteed a 1 in 800 million chance of winning a billion dollars? If you think you will win that ticket I would advise just not flying on the iteneray in question.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
ryanov
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:13 am

You're likely LESS safe on a CRJ, which is likely operated by a regional airline crew, which generally have poorer safety records than mainline airlines. Also, you should probably avoid taking a shower before skipping either type of flight, as I bet it's more dangerous.
 
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zeke
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:55 am

lightsaber wrote:

But issues are found. Take the A320 wing corrosion issue that ended up effecting 7% of the fleet (hundreds of A320s):
http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/3402061/C ... rbus-wings


Surface corrosion is not comparable to this cracking issue at all. I don’t know of any aircraft type in service that has not had surface corrosion.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
kalvado
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:37 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
It’s just as likely, or even more likely, that airbus flight will suffer a dual engine failure due to flying into a flock of birds.

Probably you're off by a pretty large factor
We lack the data for the current problem. 3 frames with the problem found - out of how many inspected? 100? 1000?
Assuming 1 out of 100 737's has a problem is probably reasonable. How long a plane would last before the crash once cracking started? 1000 cycles? Or to give a benefit of doubt 10 000 cycles?
Then crash probability due to this problem is about 1 in a million, conservatively.

Two dual engine failures due to birdstrikes on AIrbus are 10 years apart; with 6000 in service and say 1000 cycles per frame a year - that is a 1:60 million probability, 60 times lower than the value above.

Feel free to share your estimates...
 
Flashy16
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:40 pm

So I did some research on my own with what I could find online and Delta appears to have relatively ancient 737-800s. I haven't switched to the CRJ, but I am having some sleepless nights...... huge ,huge fear of flying that normally I can deal with, but my trust has been a bit damaged with the Allegiant issues and the 737 MAX - I just feel extremely anxious again. The pickle fork issue seems very serious, however rare and I actually can't believe any airline would get in an unchecked NG plane right now, especially an older one. Is there any chance at all that some inspections will have taken place by tomorrow of these old Delta planes if it only takes an hour?! Thank you.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:03 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
So I did some research on my own with what I could find online and Delta appears to have relatively ancient 737-800s. I haven't switched to the CRJ, but I am having some sleepless nights...... huge ,huge fear of flying that normally I can deal with, but my trust has been a bit damaged with the Allegiant issues and the 737 MAX - I just feel extremely anxious again. The pickle fork issue seems very serious, however rare and I actually can't believe any airline would get in an unchecked NG plane right now, especially an older one. Is there any chance at all that some inspections will have taken place by tomorrow of these old Delta planes if it only takes an hour?! Thank you.


Get a grip. The frames are getting checked. Frames over 33,500 cycles in the week and frames above some 22,000 cycles during the year. We will not see a crash because of this problem.
 
Flashy16
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:21 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Flashy16 wrote:
So I did some research on my own with what I could find online and Delta appears to have relatively ancient 737-800s. I haven't switched to the CRJ, but I am having some sleepless nights...... huge ,huge fear of flying that normally I can deal with, but my trust has been a bit damaged with the Allegiant issues and the 737 MAX - I just feel extremely anxious again. The pickle fork issue seems very serious, however rare and I actually can't believe any airline would get in an unchecked NG plane right now, especially an older one. Is there any chance at all that some inspections will have taken place by tomorrow of these old Delta planes if it only takes an hour?! Thank you.


Get a grip. The frames are getting checked. Frames over 33,500 cycles in the week and frames above some 22,000 cycles during the year. We will not see a crash because of this problem.



Thank you so much! It's relieving to hear that checks are within the week. Wish my flight wasn't tomorrow, but I guess there is a chance it will have been checked. Do you think the articles have been dramatic about the seriousness of the crack location - is there truly any sort of real chance a wing will just "fall off?"

My luck has not been great with flying compared to most. Have lost many family, friends and neighbors (including babysitting for the children at the time their mother was killed) in commercial and private flights. My cousin even walked into a propeller! I don't get any comfort from statistics and this sort of issue on my exact plane is very nerve wracking to me.
 
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ssteve
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:42 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
So I did some research on my own with what I could find online and Delta appears to have relatively ancient 737-800s. I haven't switched to the CRJ


Switch to the CRJ... if you have a middle seat and you're not particularly tall.. Otherwise there's no rational reason to switch.
 
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caoimhin
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:46 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
Do you think the articles have been dramatic about the seriousness of the crack location - is there truly any sort of real chance a wing will just "fall off?"


Articles are most certainly overly-dramatic to the extent that they cause unnecessary fear and anxiety in the public. As much journalism across many sectors is lurid and shamelessly sensational, I think this shouldn’t surprise you.

Is the issue significant enough to warrant the investigation that is underway? Of course. Is there cause for you to envision a situation in which a wing on your aircraft falls off? Certainly not.

Remember that there are around 7,000 737NGs delivered. This issue has not been the cause of any aviation incidents with any of them.
 
Austin787
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:13 pm

Boeing is in a pickle right now :mrgreen:
 
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trpmb6
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:17 pm

WIederling wrote:
mga707 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

What is the difference between Classic and NG?


Big difference in the wing. -100 through -500 had basically the same wing. Different and longer wing on the NGs.


Is this in a way another case/kind of grandfathering fallout then?
( fuselage and wingbox did not change from Classic to NG, established functional design. can be kept as is.)


No way grandfathering is linked to this at all.

People seem to get worked up about the change product rule and "grandfathering". Rest assured that all of the fuselage and wing are reanalyzed for new loads.

While the investigation is ongoing, I suspect this is a material or process issue. Bad batch from a new supplier or some sort. Who knows.

Media companies make money by getting views and clicks. Keep that in mind anytime you read an article. Far better to go and see what the FAA is doing/saying. Read the actual ADs / ACs whatever they release in response.
 
WIederling
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
mga707 wrote:

Big difference in the wing. -100 through -500 had basically the same wing. Different and longer wing on the NGs.


Is this in a way another case/kind of grandfathering fallout then?
( fuselage and wingbox did not change from Classic to NG, established functional design. can be kept as is.)


No way grandfathering is linked to this at all.


new info:
Boeing has stated that Classic, NG and MAX are each a different design in that place.
Murphy is an optimist
 
2175301
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:55 pm

Austin787 wrote:
Boeing is in a pickle right now :mrgreen:


Stick a fork in it...

In all seriousness; this is almost certainly a bad batch of parts or a process issue with likely limited number of aircraft affected.

Also, just finding cracks are not an issue. Lots of cracks in lots of places are OK (in fact - all metal parts have cracks in them if you look close enough). They are only a problem if they grow too long; and inspections are designed to find them and remediate them before they get that long (notice how this issue was found at about 1/3 of the design life).

I'm not saying this is not an issue. At the least it likely requires an expensive repair during a D-Check for the affected aircraft. But, it's not something that unusual or totally unheard off.

All will be fine in the end,

Have a great day,
 
richierich
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:07 pm

Flashy16 wrote:
My luck has not been great with flying compared to most. Have lost many family, friends and neighbors (including babysitting for the children at the time their mother was killed) in commercial and private flights. My cousin even walked into a propeller! I don't get any comfort from statistics and this sort of issue on my exact plane is very nerve wracking to me.


Wow - it does sound like you have had some bad luck and odd coincidences in your life. I literally know only one person who died in a plane crash (owner of my flight school) and sadly that was only because his passenger that day may have shot him in a murder/suicide event.

Anyway, luck is a funny word. The airline industry didn't get to be this safe based on "luck". It is safe because of the hard work of some very dedicated individuals involved in the design of aircraft and infrastructure to the maintenance to the operations. Yes, there are sadly crashes from time to time, and those are obviously awful and tragic. We mourn the loss of those who perished, but from each crash there are lessons to be learned and improvements to be made. The picklefork issue (is it one word, or two?) is not insignificant but I firmly believe that those who inspect and are responsible for such things are getting out ahead of this before it is a problem. I cannot guarantee that nothing will ever happen - no human can - but I have to think that safety is paramount and nobody would be letting these planes fly if they thought otherwise. The best I can say is that I would have no reservations AT ALL about getting on a B737NG right now (something I would have been less apt to say about a Max, circa March or April).

At the risk of preaching to you, Flashy, you have to do what is right for you. Obviously you are a nervous flier and clearly that goes well beyond the pickle fork (I went with two words just to keep my spellcheck happy). If changing to a different plane type will help you sleep, go for it. Nobody has the right to belittle you for that. However, I will add that I don't think it will make your flight any more or less safe because they're all safe these days. I always read the emergency card, pay attention during the safety briefing, know where my exits are and my life jacket is...this is not to scare me but to comfort me as the chances I will ever need to rely on that knowledge is infinitesimally small.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Flashy16 wrote:
So I did some research on my own with what I could find online and Delta appears to have relatively ancient 737-800s. I haven't switched to the CRJ, but I am having some sleepless nights...... huge ,huge fear of flying that normally I can deal with, but my trust has been a bit damaged with the Allegiant issues and the 737 MAX - I just feel extremely anxious again. The pickle fork issue seems very serious, however rare and I actually can't believe any airline would get in an unchecked NG plane right now, especially an older one. Is there any chance at all that some inspections will have taken place by tomorrow of these old Delta planes if it only takes an hour?! Thank you.


Get a grip. The frames are getting checked. Frames over 33,500 cycles in the week and frames above some 22,000 cycles during the year. We will not see a crash because of this problem.

Do you have a link to the AD?

Late edit:. AD to be issued today!

Leeham has 22,600 FC and within a week for 32,000 FC.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/30/boein ... er-pickle/

I just found India requires at 26,000 FC.

https://www.asianage.com/amp/india/all- ... racks.html

I posted a prior link from another source noting, for India, 26,000 FC.

4 Pickle forks per aircraft.

Lightsaber
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Flashy16
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:55 pm

richierich wrote:
Flashy16 wrote:
My luck has not been great with flying compared to most. Have lost many family, friends and neighbors (including babysitting for the children at the time their mother was killed) in commercial and private flights. My cousin even walked into a propeller! I don't get any comfort from statistics and this sort of issue on my exact plane is very nerve wracking to me.


Wow - it does sound like you have had some bad luck and odd coincidences in your life. I literally know only one person who died in a plane crash (owner of my flight school) and sadly that was only because his passenger that day may have shot him in a murder/suicide event.

Anyway, luck is a funny word. The airline industry didn't get to be this safe based on "luck". It is safe because of the hard work of some very dedicated individuals involved in the design of aircraft and infrastructure to the maintenance to the operations. Yes, there are sadly crashes from time to time, and those are obviously awful and tragic. We mourn the loss of those who perished, but from each crash there are lessons to be learned and improvements to be made. The picklefork issue (is it one word, or two?) is not insignificant but I firmly believe that those who inspect and are responsible for such things are getting out ahead of this before it is a problem. I cannot guarantee that nothing will ever happen - no human can - but I have to think that safety is paramount and nobody would be letting these planes fly if they thought otherwise. The best I can say is that I would have no reservations AT ALL about getting on a B737NG right now (something I would have been less apt to say about a Max, circa March or April).

At the risk of preaching to you, Flashy, you have to do what is right for you. Obviously you are a nervous flier and clearly that goes well beyond the pickle fork (I went with two words just to keep my spellcheck happy). If changing to a different plane type will help you sleep, go for it. Nobody has the right to belittle you for that. However, I will add that I don't think it will make your flight any more or less safe because they're all safe these days. I always read the emergency card, pay attention during the safety briefing, know where my exits are and my life jacket is...this is not to scare me but to comfort me as the chances I will ever need to rely on that knowledge is infinitesimally small.



Thank you so much for such a kind reply! So flying on a 20 yr old (I think all delta 737-800 that old) NG would not bother you even though checks on that age are being done within a week? That is reassuring although I don’t know if I can feel better!

The plane has been at my regional airport for 22 hrs. Any chance the check would happen there or would it always be at a hub (this plane is going to Altanta).
 
Jacob2877
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 pm

Recently, I noticed many articles referencing the 3 out of 15 aircraft were 737-800 and some commentators were speculating this was a result of heavier loads with extended fuselage and wings. Curious, if anyone has heard or read anything different. Could it be possible that the directive gets clarification and only 737-800 are affected and not all 737 NG
 
9Patch
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:18 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Yeah, I've also been trying to imagine what this part is exactly - if it is describing just a couple of large parts, then I'm guessing it's maybe a vertically placed reinforcement of front and rear spars, with the "fork" running out at the top and bottom flanges outside the fuselage. If there are a bunch of them, then it sounds more like a finger-plate - a horizontal "comb" extending out of the fuselage onto the wing skin, with the "fork" running out to the stringers.


Image

Figure 1. 737 NG pickle forks reinforce the frames attaching to the forward and rear wing spars. The influence of a flexing wing can be seen in the picture. Source: Leeham Co based on a patent drawing.
https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/30/boein ... er-pickle/
 
smokeybandit
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:07 am

Pickle Fork goes on my "If I ever formed a band I'd name it..." list.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1944
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:30 am

Jacob2877 wrote:
Recently, I noticed many articles referencing the 3 out of 15 aircraft were 737-800 and some commentators were speculating this was a result of heavier loads with extended fuselage and wings. Curious, if anyone has heard or read anything different. Could it be possible that the directive gets clarification and only 737-800 are affected and not all 737 NG


That would make no sense to only inspect the 738. If only three out of the fifteen aircraft were 738s, that means that there are 12 that would be either a 736, 73G or 739. Given that the 736 was produced in such small batches, that would put an average of six each on the 73G and 739 (more than the 738). Likely it will be identified which actual frames will be effected down the road and traced to either a metal impurity or a production error.
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Jacob2877
Posts: 10
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:25 am

No they found only 3 out of 15 inspected 737-8 showing cracked pickles.

Also what about the southwest 737-7. Is that what 737-g is? Thanks
 
mga707
Posts: 191
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:06 am

Jacob2877 wrote:

Also what about the southwest 737-7. Is that what 737-g is? Thanks


Yes, 'G' being the seventh letter. '73G' is shorthand for 737-700.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:06 am

9Patch wrote:
Image

Figure 1. 737 NG pickle forks reinforce the frames attaching to the forward and rear wing spars. The influence of a flexing wing can be seen in the picture. Source: Leeham Co based on a patent drawing.
https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/30/boein ... er-pickle/


Thank you so much. Weird it took the thread this long to clarify what we're taking about. (Should have guessed Leeham would have details...)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
asdf
Posts: 437
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Re: 737NG Pickle fork issue

Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:20 am

zeke wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

But issues are found. Take the A320 wing corrosion issue that ended up effecting 7% of the fleet (hundreds of A320s):
http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/3402061/C ... rbus-wings


Surface corrosion is not comparable to this cracking issue at all. I don’t know of any aircraft type in service that has not had surface corrosion.


Its not compareable
and its completely off topic

but well ... as a moderator you can do that ....

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