Norwegian will close its short-haul MAD base in January 2020.

ARN and PMI are zeroed-out since October 26 (end of summer season), and CPH, KEF, LPA, TFN after the first week of January. In addition, Norwegian flies seasonally to CTA and DBV which will also be cut by the end of the season.

The only remaining short-haul destinations will be LGW and OSL.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/2 ... juste.html

Durante la temporada de invierno, la aerolínea dejará de operar las rutas entre el aeropuerto Adolfo Suárez Madrid-Barajas con Estocolmo y Palma de Mallorca, que cesarán su actividad el 27 de octubre, y Copenhague, Reikiavik, Tenerife Sur y Gran Canaria, que finalizarán el 8 de enero.

Wow... I expected someone would capitalize the gap left by Thomas Cook, Ryanair bases and Norwegian bases at the Canaries, but I certainly didn’t see it being Norwegian doing a U turn.

I expected Vueling to shift some production down there so some more European bases (CDG/ORY) could be transferred to the LEVEL brand but now it seems harder.

Norwegian was announced to be moving from T2/T1 to T4 before summer but it never came to fruition. Norwegian setup in MAD was far from ideal... huge checkin area at the northern side of T2 public area, when most passengers had to walk all the way south to the non-Schengen side of T1. I guess if they’ll continue like that now...

Aisak wrote:

Wow... I expected someone would capitalize the gap left by Thomas Cook, Ryanair bases and Norwegian bases at the Canaries, but I certainly didn’t see it being Norwegian doing a U turn.

I expected Vueling to shift some production down there so some more European bases (CDG/ORY) could be transferred to the LEVEL brand but now it seems harder.

Norwegian was announced to be moving from T2/T1 to T4 before summer but it never came to fruition. Norwegian setup in MAD was far from ideal... huge checkin area at the northern side of T2 public area, when most passengers had to walk all the way south to the non-Schengen side of T1. I guess if they’ll continue like that now...

Yeah, incredibile! Maybe it's too late for them as well about canary traffic. I guess Fr will celebrate!

So OSL + LGW and JFK,LAX and BOS for long haul?

I'm interested to see if they'll increase the flights a day between MAD and OSL/LGW.

Aisak wrote:

Wow... I expected someone would capitalize the gap left by Thomas Cook, Ryanair bases and Norwegian bases at the Canaries, but I certainly didn’t see it being Norwegian doing a U turn.

I expected Vueling to shift some production down there so some more European bases (CDG/ORY) could be transferred to the LEVEL brand but now it seems harder.

Norwegian was announced to be moving from T2/T1 to T4 before summer but it never came to fruition. Norwegian setup in MAD was far from ideal... huge checkin area at the northern side of T2 public area, when most passengers had to walk all the way south to the non-Schengen side of T1. I guess if they’ll continue like that now...

Vueling will not grow in Madrid in the foreseeable future, the strategy is that MAD belongs to IB, and BCN to VY. It is limited actually because of “scope clauses” in the Iberia’s pilot agreement, that forbid using more than 5% of IB code in VY flights but only from Madrid, in BCN they use IB code in all flights.

I think Iberia, Air Europa and Ryanair will be the winners of Norwegian retirement in Madrid.

Going to start a battle here, but this is truly asked in the spirit of "really wanting to know how much we can know based on the facts".

What percent of this decision is based on the MAX grounding, and what percent is based on all other factors? I truly don't know the details of how we got to this point, and I would like to know how much the grounding has affected Norwegian as a company on the whole.

SIVB wrote:

I think Iberia, Air Europa and Ryanair will be the winners of Norwegian retirement in Madrid.

Ryanair is dropping 7 routes this winter from MAD: Bratislava, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Ouarzazate, Vilnius and Wroclaw. And reducing LPA/TFS/ACE.

There is probably too much competition in some secondary routes.

Maybe it would be a good time for Wizz Air to considering opening a base in MAD.

How many planes did they have in MAD and where do you think they'll go? FR @MAD must be celebrating.

SIVB wrote:

Vueling will not grow in Madrid in the foreseeable future, the strategy is that MAD belongs to IB, and BCN to VY. It is limited actually because of “scope clauses” in the Iberia’s pilot agreement, that forbid using more than 5% of IB code in VY flights but only from Madrid, in BCN they use IB code in all flights.

I was not talking about MAD but the Canaries when talking about Vueling filling the gap. I don’t think they have any base down there.

And about Vueling in MAD, I’m one of those thinking that they should not have flights at MAD. Co-operating the MAD/BCN air shuttle was a mistake in my opinion...

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Going to start a battle here, but this is truly asked in the spirit of "really wanting to know how much we can know based on the facts".

What percent of this decision is based on the MAX grounding, and what percent is based on all other factors? I truly don't know the details of how we got to this point, and I would like to know how much the grounding has affected Norwegian as a company on the whole.

I think that's a really hard question to answer with certainty, but I expect that the MAX plays a relatively limited role in this. Certainly, the challenges with both the 787 and MAX have globally affected Norwegian, but it's mainly their long-haul operations that have seen the impact. Some simply aren't viable without the economics of the MAX, which is why you've seen them pull back. However, this reduction is about shorthaul ops, and I suspect that is tied more directly to DY's current financial situation, the end of the season, and their decisions to expand too much, too quickly.

MAD-JFK has been rumored to be getting axed.

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

konrad wrote:

How many planes did they have in MAD and where do you think they'll go? FR @MAD must be celebrating.

Iberia will benefit the most:

ARN: Iberia and Air Europa (seasonal for cruises)
CPH: Iberia Express, Ryanair and Air Europa (seasonal for cruises)
CTA: Ryanair
DBV: Iberia
KEF: Iberia Express (seasonal), Icelandair (seasonal)
LPA: Iberia, Air Europa and Ryanair (FR reducing flights b/c of their LPA base closure)
PMI: Iberia Express, Air Europa and Ryanair
TFN: Iberia Express, Air Europa and Ryanair (FR reducing flights b/c of their LPA base closure)

Iberia flies all those routes except CTA (yet I2 flies seasonal MAD-PMO). Iberia will become the only airline between Madrid and Sweden year-round and will have a monopoly in Dubrovnik (which is up to 3 daily in August).

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Going to start a battle here, but this is truly asked in the spirit of "really wanting to know how much we can know based on the facts".

What percent of this decision is based on the MAX grounding, and what percent is based on all other factors?

To parse this out of the MAX grounding you'd really need to know yield by route, and how the MAD routes compare to avg Norwegian routes (and better, all other routes). I don't think that can be answered with public info.

Cointrin330 wrote:

MAD-JFK has been rumored to be getting axed.

And MAD-BOS was quietly not loaded for S20.

I guess IB Is celebrating the news n looking ansiouxly for more planes n slots to cover the gap...

How many planes did they have in Madrid? What will they do with them now? Will they just park them?

It is 4 B737 based in Madrid. Honestly, they set up a base there, just pointing at the map and looking at it as a main airport. Same they did with many other places with different luck. Low cost traffic Scandinavia-Madrid is rather limited. All the premium high-yielding customer have choices with OneWorld (IB, I2 and Finnair). Scandis love the Spanish coast. Madrid is fun and has tones of cultural spots to holiday, but that's not among the top options for Scandinavians when they think of Spain. All main D8 routes in Madrid faced strong competence from different players:

CPH: Ryanair and Iberia Express
ARN: Iberia
HEL: Finnair
OSL: Iberia (or Iberia Express in the past).
LPA/TFN/PMI: Ryanair, Air Europa and Iberia, most of them with far more frequencies per day.

Loads on their three long-haul routes are good. Yields, as pretty much everywhere they fly, must be terrible.

Who thinks Norwegian had any chances of success in Madrid? Hard not to see this coming.Of course MAD could have been just a D8 destination as other places in Spain are for them (i.e Bilbao), but never a base.

IB and pals will be even happier if Norwegian cuts MAD-LAX, JFK, BOS (which someone up thread said had been canned?)


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chepos wrote:

IB and pals will be even happier if Norwegian cuts MAD-LAX, JFK, BOS (which someone up thread said had been canned?)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, us in the BOS thread noted that LGW, CDG and FCO had been loaded a while back, but MAD had not and still hasn’t been as of time of writing this comment, this news may partly explain why, but the others were loaded a while ago, so might be a separate issue. Either way, no BOS-MAD as of right now.

I have to wonder if Air Europa might take advantage, particularly for short-haul destinations. With LATAM likely to switch its Spain partner from IB to UX, the opportunity is there.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

lesfalls wrote:

So OSL + LGW and JFK,LAX and BOS for long haul?

I'm interested to see if they'll increase the flights a day between MAD and OSL/LGW.

More likely they'll cancel their long haul operations out of Madrid as well, funneling that traffic through Gatwick.

I hope they don't do it in the next 3 weeks ... I'm scheduled to fly BOS-MAD soon!

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Going to start a battle here, but this is truly asked in the spirit of "really wanting to know how much we can know based on the facts".

What percent of this decision is based on the MAX grounding, and what percent is based on all other factors? I truly don't know the details of how we got to this point, and I would like to know how much the grounding has affected Norwegian as a company on the whole.

I'm guessing the MAX grounding played a very large part. I flew a wet leased 320 last week and it was a horrible product in terms leg-room, amenities and unprofessional crew. If Madrid was an unprofitable base for them this move makes a lot of sense if it allows them to regain control over all of their own operations.

Aisak wrote:

Wow... I expected someone would capitalize the gap left by Thomas Cook, Ryanair bases and Norwegian bases at the Canaries, but I certainly didn’t see it being Norwegian doing a U turn.

This closure was actually announced about 2 weeks ago, so before Thomas Cook closure.

Blerg wrote:

How many planes did they have in Madrid? What will they do with them now? Will they just park them?

NAX have 18 MAX aircraft parked, because of that they need to wet-lease capacity to maintain schedule. With this closure they will be able to end some expensive wet-lease contracts.

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

Why come up with such a puerile comment?

Let me surmise...you’re either a troll or you’re an arch capitalist who dislikes upstart airlines and whose idea of “free” markets is a lack of competition, with the result that the majors dominate and fares rise

If you’re gonna post, write something sensible, or don’t write anything at all. You’re welcome

adamh8297 wrote:

And MAD-BOS was quietly not loaded for S20.

I don't see that flight staying.

Iberian Peninsula-BOS has exploded over the last few years. From only Iberia flying MAD-BOS (at some point even seasonal only), there are now 5 routes: IB and DY on MAD-BOS, Level and DY on BCN-BOS and TAP on LIS-BOS.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Have Air Europa got any aircraft spare or for delivery soon in the 150-200 seat range ? Their Madrid network to non-Spanish cities in Europe is modest at the moment. I suspect that even with Latam moving to Skyteam, we are unlikely to see Air Europa going for a big shorthaul expansion

The issue with UX is that those European flights are filled with connections and low-of-the-barrel O&D competing with Ryanair, easyJet, etc. Corporate traffic overwhelming prefers Iberia and the local legacy (let's say, MAD-FRA, business traffic will fly Iberia or Lufthansa).

So UX ends up being in a no man's land. Venturing in smaller markets like MAN, BER, etc. competing with Iberia (and maybe some low-cost carrier) is risky. For instance they tried MAD-GVA a couple of years ago and they chopped it (despite only having Iberia, easyJet and Swiss and being a natural market for connections to LatAm).

Aisak wrote:

SIVB wrote:

Vueling will not grow in Madrid in the foreseeable future, the strategy is that MAD belongs to IB, and BCN to VY. It is limited actually because of “scope clauses” in the Iberia’s pilot agreement, that forbid using more than 5% of IB code in VY flights but only from Madrid, in BCN they use IB code in all flights.

I was not talking about MAD but the Canaries when talking about Vueling filling the gap. I don’t think they have any base down there.

And about Vueling in MAD, I’m one of those thinking that they should not have flights at MAD. Co-operating the MAD/BCN air shuttle was a mistake in my opinion...

Sorry Aisak, I thought you meant in MAD!

Vueling has bases in TFN and LPA, TFS was a base but it only lasted a couple of years. I don’t know if they can benefit from this, because having a base in the Canaries means early departures back home or late arrivals into the islands, which is not very efficient for tourists.

About VY in MAD, it was a big base (relatively) before the merger with Clickair. They have already left major markets and currently only fly year round to BCN and CDG (IB flies to ORY) and IBZ and MAJ during the summers, which are not big markets for IB. The creation of IB Express definitively put a question mark for VY in Madrid, but time will tell.

TheLion wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

Why come up with such a puerile comment?

Let me surmise...you’re either a troll or you’re an arch capitalist who dislikes upstart airlines and whose idea of “free” markets is a lack of competition, with the result that the majors dominate and fares rise

If you’re gonna post, write something sensible, or don’t write anything at all. You’re welcome

Or somebody who disagrees with the business practices of certain upstart airlines....

SCQ83 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

And MAD-BOS was quietly not loaded for S20.

I don't see that flight staying.

Iberian Peninsula-BOS has exploded over the last few years. From only Iberia flying MAD-BOS (at some point even seasonal only), there are now 5 routes: IB and DY on MAD-BOS, Level and DY on BCN-BOS and TAP on LIS-BOS.

Here were the Iberian Pennisula flights for S19. DY did not serve BOS-BCN.

IB MAD-BOS
DY MAD-BOS
Level BCN-BOS
TP LIS-BOS
DL LIS-BOS

Also I believe all S4 flights from BOS continue on to LIS or OPO from TER or PDL so its direct service.

SIVB wrote:

Vueling has bases in TFN and LPA, TFS was a base but it only lasted a couple of years. I don’t know if they can benefit from this, because having a base in the Canaries means early departures back home or late arrivals into the islands, which is not very efficient for tourists.

Vueling tried some say... "leisure UK routes" from its base in TFS a while ago. They flew TFS-BHX and TFS-MAN, both with terribly bad loads. The reason Vueling and I2 are on the islands is to connect to Spain mainland, mainly to BCN/MAD where they fly early departures from both TFN and LPA. Same wih IB Express which currently flies up to 7 flights per day between LPA and MAD. They used to fly TFS-LHR some time ago, but that's it.

Eikie wrote:

TheLion wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

Why come up with such a puerile comment?

Let me surmise...you’re either a troll or you’re an arch capitalist who dislikes upstart airlines and whose idea of “free” markets is a lack of competition, with the result that the majors dominate and fares rise

If you’re gonna post, write something sensible, or don’t write anything at all. You’re welcome

Or somebody who disagrees with the business practices of certain upstart airlines....

Which business practices are these then, and what affect do they have on your life?

Sure looks like a lot of Europe airlines are being government subsidized lately apparently.

Where is the capacity being moved to?

Probably nowhere, with again a few NG's leaving the fleet.

[*]

EIBPI wrote:

Where is the capacity being moved to?

Question answered 10-11 posts up

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

But Why?.!.
Why all the hate. Why.
I really don't get it.
This should be an aviation fans forum. Why all the hate against Norwegian. Nobody is forcing people to fly (*OR WORK*) with them.
Why hoping that they go bust, meaning that many people will lose their jobs and the travelling public will have less choice.... I just don't get it.

oldannyboy wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

But Why?.!.
Why all the hate. Why.
I really don't get it.
This should be an aviation fans forum. Why all the hate against Norwegian. Nobody is forcing people to fly (*OR WORK*) with them.
Why hoping that they go bust, meaning that many people will lose their jobs and the travelling public will have less choice.... I just don't get it.

especially since if some airline exit the market the prices for the route will go up.

It's not have to be hate, it's can just be economic. They are still in red this year, even they have made many moves to became profitable. They are going to need fresh equity again in beginning of next year, time shows they get it or not.

oldannyboy wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

But Why?.!.
Why all the hate. Why.
I really don't get it.
This should be an aviation fans forum. Why all the hate against Norwegian. Nobody is forcing people to fly (*OR WORK*) with them.
Why hoping that they go bust, meaning that many people will lose their jobs and the travelling public will have less choice.... I just don't get it.

Because they aren't "real." They subvert market realities. To some extent, they are destined to go bust.....their economic model is unsustainable, and in the meantime all the do is hurt the marketplace with their unrealistic economics.

oldannyboy wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

Nobody is forcing people to fly (*OR WORK*) with them.

Numbers show not enough people are willing to fly with them, or, at least, not for prices norwegian needs to stay afloat without resorting to begging extended loans and such.

And nobody is forcing people to work for them directly, but they do influence the jobmarket (negatively).
Jobs as a pilot (and in a lesser sense as cabin crew) is not an infinite amount. And while there are shortages in some area's of the world, not all potential pilots are eligible for those jobs, mostly because of the wrong nationality.
Nice to see UA having trouble finding pilots, but Jean-Pierre from Paris will never be one of those. Other factors might be age, education, language, etc.
So norwegian might very well be one of the few, if not only option. Besides by applying unrealistic fares, they influence everyone's aviation job as the competition has to follow not to lose customers.

SteelChair wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Heres hoping this is just the next step in their eventual exit from the marketplace.

But Why?.!.
Why all the hate. Why.
I really don't get it.
This should be an aviation fans forum. Why all the hate against Norwegian. Nobody is forcing people to fly (*OR WORK*) with them.
Why hoping that they go bust, meaning that many people will lose their jobs and the travelling public will have less choice.... I just don't get it.

Because they aren't "real." They subvert market realities. To some extent, they are destined to go bust.....their economic model is unsustainable, and in the meantime all the do is hurt the marketplace with their unrealistic economics.

And oh yeah, its not hate. Its just business.

SteelChair wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

But Why?.!.
Why all the hate. Why.
I really don't get it.
This should be an aviation fans forum. Why all the hate against Norwegian. Nobody is forcing people to fly (*OR WORK*) with them.
Why hoping that they go bust, meaning that many people will lose their jobs and the travelling public will have less choice.... I just don't get it.

Because they aren't "real." They subvert market realities. To some extent, they are destined to go bust.....their economic model is unsustainable, and in the meantime all the do is hurt the marketplace with their unrealistic economics.

And oh yeah, its not hate. Its just business.

Because instead flying a CRJ for any regional airline dba UA/DL/AA Express for $1500 a month gross, whilst needing food stamps to feed your kids, is REALISTIC wages.
Or maybe you think so because this scam is hidden behind the silver spoon of any of the large un-challengeable US3 majors, and it has become the accepted norm in the US.
Ha Ha. Give me a break.

I say that most of the "haters" here instead care to comment simply because Norwegian has attempted at entering the job market in the US, and has attempted at subverting some of the given assumptions. Otherwise no one would be giving a freakin' toss about their market practices if the "allegedly underpaid" pilots and crews were Thai or Vietnamese....
Be honest guys.

https://www.hosteltur.com/131656_el-cie ... lotos.html

50 redundancies 100 unpaid leave according to pprune.org poster

PatrickZ80 wrote:

lesfalls wrote:

So OSL + LGW and JFK,LAX and BOS for long haul?

I'm interested to see if they'll increase the flights a day between MAD and OSL/LGW.

More likely they'll cancel their long haul operations out of Madrid as well, funneling that traffic through Gatwick.

The problem with operating more LGW flights is finding suitable slots to feed Norwegian Air UK longhaul operations there.

Long haul operations are not "out of Madrid" but rather "into Madrid" from other operating bases as the 787s are not MAD-based and there is no crew base at MAD.
These flights tend to operate quite late in the afternoon/evening so I don't know if Norwegian really expected too much feed from the Norwegian Air Shuttle 737 base at MAD anyway....

Let's remember the legal entity closing the MAD base is Norwegian Air International (the Irish one: IATA/ICAO D8/IBK)
The longhaul flights are listed as Norwegian Air Shuttle (IATA/ICAO DY/NAX although problably operated by Norwegian Long Haul.) so not related to the MAD base as it's simply a destination for them