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AWACSooner
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FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:04 pm

Source: https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials ... evacuation

I’ve been waiting for years for this to happen. If there’s nothing to it, then fine...press on with your 28” seat pitch F9 and NK. But I think the evac needs to be done in a random setting like a smoke /fumes scenario...not a generic “everyone remains calm an egresses orderly” scenario.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:21 pm

The FAA has had exit standards for a long time. I don't see them rewriting those test standards. They'll be testings those standards for tighter seat pitch. Why they even mention seat width is a mystery. Coach 3x3 seating with ~17 inch wide seats has been the standard for a long time with 757/737/727/707/DC-8. https://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.c ... s-dc-8-52/
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:26 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The FAA has had exit standards for a long time. I don't see them rewriting those test standards. They'll be testings those standards for tighter seat pitch. Why they even mention seat width is a mystery. Coach 3x3 seating with ~17 inch wide seats has been the standard for a long time with 757/737/727/707/DC-8. https://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.c ... s-dc-8-52/


Shoot even some A320s are fitted with 17” seats and a wider aisle. Plus the sub 17” A330s. 767s and A350s out and about. Pitch is much more the problem than width.
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:33 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The FAA has had exit standards for a long time. I don't see them rewriting those test standards. They'll be testings those standards for tighter seat pitch. Why they even mention seat width is a mystery. Coach 3x3 seating with ~17 inch wide seats has been the standard for a long time with 757/737/727/707/DC-8. https://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.c ... s-dc-8-52/


Shoot even some A320s are fitted with 17” seats and a wider aisle. Plus the sub 17” A330s. 767s and A350s out and about. Pitch is much more the problem than width.


Aisle width matters for evacuation, seat width not so much unless it increases the number of seats and thus people to evacuate.

Seat pitch may possibly slow movement towards the aisle, it's worth studying.
 
bgm
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:34 pm

Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:
 
cokepopper
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:38 pm

Locking bins would help.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:41 pm

Nope. Let's push it all the way down to 69cm. Spirit's 71 is still far too luxurious.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:43 pm

Turnhouse1 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The FAA has had exit standards for a long time. I don't see them rewriting those test standards. They'll be testings those standards for tighter seat pitch. Why they even mention seat width is a mystery. Coach 3x3 seating with ~17 inch wide seats has been the standard for a long time with 757/737/727/707/DC-8. https://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.c ... s-dc-8-52/


Shoot even some A320s are fitted with 17” seats and a wider aisle. Plus the sub 17” A330s. 767s and A350s out and about. Pitch is much more the problem than width.


Aisle width matters for evacuation, seat width not so much unless it increases the number of seats and thus people to evacuate.

Seat pitch may possibly slow movement towards the aisle, it's worth studying.


It may be worth studying but we can't ignore there have been recently certified planes. What were the seat pitch and width for 787/A350/CS100 certifications? I don't think there are going to be any revelations.
 
ltbewr
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:05 pm

They also need to have a cross-section of people including 'persons of size', with mobility and other special needs, if have service and comfort animals, most trying to bring their oversized carry ons with them. Make it really real.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:05 pm

They need to do a descending rewards scheme for these tests. It has to MATTER getting off. First 50 get $100, next 50 get $20, last 50 get 0. Something like that.

They also should have board via normal procedure (jet way), with belongings that belong to them that they stowed, and have it be as real as possible, thinking maybe not a V1 rejection, but at least a spool up and evacuation on a runway (obviously at a less busy airport say FWA or something like that). If half the doors are blocked (per the standard), I bet you don’t hit the 90 second threshold.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:12 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
They need to do a descending rewards scheme for these tests. It has to MATTER getting off. First 50 get $100, next 50 get $20, last 50 get 0. Something like that.

They also should have board via normal procedure (jet way), with belongings that belong to them that they stowed, and have it be as real as possible, thinking maybe not a V1 rejection, but at least a spool up and evacuation on a runway (obviously at a less busy airport say FWA or something like that). If half the doors are blocked (per the standard), I bet you don’t hit the 90 second threshold.


Wasn’t there a similar study that followed British Airtours Flight 28M? It proved that human nature intervened and the 90 second threshold is under ideal circumstances. They gave a cash reward to the first off and people were climbing over each other, jamming the isles.
 
MKIAZ
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:13 pm

ltbewr wrote:
They also need to have a cross-section of people including 'persons of size', with mobility and other special needs, if have service and comfort animals, most trying to bring their oversized carry ons with them. Make it really real.


I think the idea (at least I hope the idea) is that theoretically, the plane can be evacuated in X seconds. While they realize that in reality the actual time would be more like 2X seconds due to all those factors mentioned.

The number of evacuations each year where people die due to not getting off in time is extremely extremely small. Everything is a trade off.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:15 pm

bgm wrote:

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:

Yah I know...it's too early on a Sunday morning...I'm such a looser ;)
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:17 pm

Airlines like Spirit and Frontier may be hurt by tighter seat restrictions the most.

I’m sure it’s safer in the long scheme of things if people were able to buy a cheap fare and survive flying (and an evacuation if necessary) than drive because wider seats are too pricy.

Indeed it’s a trade off.
 
WIederling
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:19 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
They need to do a descending rewards scheme for these tests. It has to MATTER getting off. First 50 get $100, next 50 get $20, last 50 get 0. Something like that.


You'd have a set of pushy executive types "I've ordered a taxi, let me through"
and other low life wielding their carry-on in front of the plane in no time.

To your unending surprise the larger set of evacuees will take longer or not make it at all.
Murphy is an optimist
 
smokeybandit
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:29 pm

Evacuation plans of a small space can never efficiently take into account passenger panic
 
blueflyer
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:55 pm

bgm wrote:
Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:

I think the test should be performed using weekday package vacationers on the way to Vegas. 25% of the plane in a wheelchair... Let's see how long it takes to evacuate that plane!
 
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keesje
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:56 pm

19 Inch width per passenger, (including armrests), a seat pitch of minimal 31 inch and aisles of 20 inch, seems a sensible responsible benchmark for flights longer than 100 minutes. Minimums not averages. Name and shame those who don't, so people know before they buy a ticket.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Max Q
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:23 pm

cokepopper wrote:
Locking bins would help.



I don’t think so, people will be standing in the aisles desperately trying to open a locked bin, blocking others while the aircraft
burns up around them


In fact it would make things worse
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
OmerMaz
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:33 pm

Could this foil FR's evil masterplan seating of the 8-200 ?

Jk
 
rbavfan
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:33 pm

cokepopper wrote:
Locking bins would help.


Yes it would. How about an automated system that if the plane is in evac mode all bins auto lock and the FA's note this multiple times before the landing.
 
kabq737
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:48 pm

Max Q wrote:
cokepopper wrote:
Locking bins would help.



I don’t think so, people will be standing in the aisles desperately trying to open a locked bin, blocking others while the aircraft
burns up around them


In fact it would make things worse


I don’t think we know either way for sure yet. It seems to me that the appropriate solution would be to test extensively before coming to conclusions.
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DFW17L
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:54 pm

The tests are real. I was going to volunteer when I worked at The Lazy B, but was told sprains and broken limbs do occur during testing. They also test at maximum passenger load, meaning tight pitch, width, and all-Econ. No thanks.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:55 pm

The FAA has had exit standards for a long time. I don't see them rewriting those test standards. They'll be testings those standards for tighter seat pitch. Why they even mention seat width is a mystery. Coach 3x3 seating with ~17 inch wide seats has been the standard for a long time with 757/737/727/707/DC-8.


Possible answer here... Quite apart from any comments about flyers becoming too fat, as slimline seats become the norm many of them don't have integrated fold down tray tables. Many tray tables, even in first class, are mounted in the armrests. This makes the armrest/tray table housing wider at the expense of seat width. I'm not a fat guy but I do lift weights and my hips and thighs are therefore fairly large. Due to the cramped conditions caused by seat size and by me actually working out and taking care of myself, I barely fit inside a coach seat. I usually have to literally squeeze myself in. I know one guy at the gym who is a serious bodybuilder, not an ounce of fat on him, and he has trouble getting into and out of airline seats on the best of occasions. I can't imagine how easy (or, how hard) it might be during an emergency when he's literally friction wedged in there.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:56 pm

blueflyer wrote:
bgm wrote:
Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:

I think the test should be performed using weekday package vacationers on the way to Vegas. 25% of the plane in a wheelchair... Let's see how long it takes to evacuate that plane!

“I need a SkyCap with 16 wheelchairs to gate A4, please”.
 
rbavfan
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:59 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
Airlines like Spirit and Frontier may be hurt by tighter seat restrictions the most.

I’m sure it’s safer in the long scheme of things if people were able to buy a cheap fare and survive flying (and an evacuation if necessary) than drive because wider seats are too pricy.

Indeed it’s a trade off.


Really have you been in coach on AA& UA lately
 
rbavfan
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:08 pm

keesje wrote:
19 Inch width per passenger, (including armrests), a seat pitch of minimal 31 inch and aisles of 20 inch, seems a sensible responsible benchmark for flights longer than 100 minutes. Minimums not averages. Name and shame those who don't, so people know before they buy a ticket.


So your saying if the flight is less than 100 minutes it's OK if they cannot get out. This question is about safety, not comfort.
 
bennett123
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:12 pm

Smokybandit

A real test would involve writing off the plane.

Not going to happen.

Some sort of financial incentive to getting off first involves some risk as well.

Also interested to know how realistic is the 90 second rule.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:14 pm

rbavfan wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Airlines like Spirit and Frontier may be hurt by tighter seat restrictions the most.

I’m sure it’s safer in the long scheme of things if people were able to buy a cheap fare and survive flying (and an evacuation if necessary) than drive because wider seats are too pricy.

Indeed it’s a trade off.


Really have you been in coach on AA& UA lately

No but they can live making money off of the front of the plane ;) . I did both at least a couple a years ago; 32B felt a smidge tight for me legroom wise.
 
bgm
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:14 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
bgm wrote:
Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:

I think the test should be performed using weekday package vacationers on the way to Vegas. 25% of the plane in a wheelchair... Let's see how long it takes to evacuate that plane!

“I need a SkyCap with 16 wheelchairs to gate A4, please”.


And yet, the miracle of flight is truly a miracle for those 16 wheelchair-bound passengers. Once they arrive at their destination, they can walk (or even run!). Hallelujah!
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:15 pm

Yes it would. How about an automated system that if the plane is in evac mode all bins auto lock and the FA's note this multiple times before the landing.


My only concern would be that an idiot or two wouldn't hear the locking warning or wouldn't care and would stand there jiggling the overhead bins while everyone behind them got burned into crispy critters. Seriously, a lot of people are so dumb and self-centered that I could see that happening.
 
rbavfan
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:16 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Airlines like Spirit and Frontier may be hurt by tighter seat restrictions the most.

I’m sure it’s safer in the long scheme of things if people were able to buy a cheap fare and survive flying (and an evacuation if necessary) than drive because wider seats are too pricy.

Indeed it’s a trade off.


Really have you been in coach on AA& UA lately

No but they can live making money off of the front of the plane ;) . I did both at least a couple a years ago; 32B felt a smidge tight for me legroom wise.


But the point is if they limit the pitch AA & United would be affected as well.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:02 pm

Are the cabin tests conducted in a smoke mode at all?
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lightsaber
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The FAA has had exit standards for a long time. I don't see them rewriting those test standards. They'll be testings those standards for tighter seat pitch. Why they even mention seat width is a mystery. Coach 3x3 seating with ~17 inch wide seats has been the standard for a long time with 757/737/727/707/DC-8. https://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.c ... s-dc-8-52/

The are benchmarking old standards. Isle width and seat pitch need to be benchmarked.

As to those wanting a reward system or add person's of size, there is margin already. Many people already get hurt in these tests. The FAA avoids these tests when possible. They are scary. In today's high liability environment, analysis should be used. 28" pitch (27"?) Will be defined for analysis as well as different seat widths/isle widths. That data is needed for MS-21/C919.

Some of the posts here want volunteers hurt. The extremes are done by leaving time margin.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:27 pm

bgm wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
I think the test should be performed using weekday package vacationers on the way to Vegas. 25% of the plane in a wheelchair... Let's see how long it takes to evacuate that plane!

“I need a SkyCap with 16 wheelchairs to gate A4, please”.


And yet, the miracle of flight is truly a miracle for those 16 wheelchair-bound passengers. Once they arrive at their destination, they can walk (or even run!). Hallelujah!

Soooooo...every flight from NYC to Florida?
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:00 pm

blueflyer wrote:
bgm wrote:
Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:

I think the test should be performed using weekday package vacationers on the way to Vegas. 25% of the plane in a wheelchair... Let's see how long it takes to evacuate that plane!


That's pretty much the reason only able bodied adult passengers can sit in the exit row, they're much more likely to be straight out the exit than blocking it.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:38 pm

What would be most effective is for a set of pilots and flight attendants working for the FAA to choose a flight at random, approach the gate, and remove the crew. So now they have a plane full of real passengers, baggage, etc to run the test. Reject the takeoff, claim something like a fuel leak, and order the evacuation. That's the only way I think you can get the most reliable data.
 
9Patch
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:32 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
What would be most effective is for a set of pilots and flight attendants working for the FAA to choose a flight at random, approach the gate, and remove the crew. So now they have a plane full of real passengers, baggage, etc to run the test. Reject the takeoff, claim something like a fuel leak, and order the evacuation. That's the only way I think you can get the most reliable data.

You may get reliable data but you'll also get sued.
That would be a very expensive test.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:54 pm

9Patch wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
What would be most effective is for a set of pilots and flight attendants working for the FAA to choose a flight at random, approach the gate, and remove the crew. So now they have a plane full of real passengers, baggage, etc to run the test. Reject the takeoff, claim something like a fuel leak, and order the evacuation. That's the only way I think you can get the most reliable data.

You may get reliable data but you'll also get sued.
That would be a very expensive test.


That would be like an early Christmas for the nearest ambulance chaser attorney.

On a related note, who do they get to play the passengers for these tests?
 
YIMBY
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:12 am

Isn't the exit door and slide the bottleneck, not the aisle and least the seat?

Not being able to take brace position and having your head the first thing where flying objects hit may be a considerably larger risk. Should safety helmets be given to tall people?

In any case it is very important to test, in addition to gathering real world experiences.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:35 am

bgm wrote:
Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.

*to OP: affect is the verb, effect is the noun :smile:


In a country where 1 out of 3 is obese, seat width does matter when it comes to safety.
That means that on a B787 with 3-3-3 seating, you have 100% chance of an obese person occupying a set of three seats.

Chances are real that in a test with a realistic scenario with a random selection of people, young and old, fat and thin, and not the usual athletes that aircraft manufacturers typically hire, the evacuation times reauired for cerrification may not be met by large margins on most aircraft.
All it takes is for an old guy or a fat person to get stuck in the aisles and everybody behind them is stuck. Heck, the way the seat-armrest interface is designed, anybody can have their coat or something else stuck. How many times haven't I gotten stuck on an armest. Then you have the earphone chords lying around, etc...

The recent Sukhoi Superjet accident demonstrates just how critical evacuation times are.

3-3-3 on a B787 or 3-4-3 on a B777 is not safe.
For that matter, the denser configurations are not safe on Airbus aircraft either, but they are rare, not the norm.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:51 am

A genuine question -- what's the situation, if during a fire drill in an office block, someone gets hurt? Are lawsuits a thing, in a situation like this?

Because if there is a mechanism for fire drills in buildings to be exempt from litigation from somebody, who was accidentally hurt in the process, there must be a way to exempt aircraft fire drills from the same.
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Max Q
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:59 am

rbavfan wrote:
cokepopper wrote:
Locking bins would help.


Yes it would. How about an automated system that if the plane is in evac mode all bins auto lock and the FA's note this multiple times before the landing.



You could announce it a thousand times, passengers don’t pay attention and they don’t care anyway, they want to take their stuff with them, they won’t give up on that
easily no matter how dangerous the situation
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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lugie
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Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:49 am

rbavfan wrote:
cokepopper wrote:
Locking bins would help.


Yes it would. How about an automated system that if the plane is in evac mode all bins auto lock and the FA's note this multiple times before the landing.


First of all, I think this system should work the other way round - locked bins shouldn't be an "opt-in" but "opt-out", i.e. the lock engages as soon as the plane starts approach procedures, whether that's an emergency landing or a completely normal one. The bins should then only be unlocked after a successful landing, during taxi-in (or maybe even after engine shut-off, could also remedy the scourge of idiots getting up, grabbing their hand luggage and blocking the aisles as soon as the plane pulls into the gate, long before the seatbelt sign is switched off).
If you had to engage the system only once you're facing an actual emergency, I bet it would end up not being engaged in most cases - there might be an electronics failure preventing the activation or, in the heat of the moment, an FA might just forget about it altogether.

Second, and more generally, I'm not quite sure if such a system would actually improve evacuation times. It would have to be repeatedly and emphatically mentioned throughout the security demonstration and even then you have to expect 50+ % of passengers not to pay attention.
Those people will most likely, in the event of an emergency stand in an aisle, desperately trying to pry open the bins and end up blocking those aisles for a much longer time than if they had just gotten up, grabbed their bag, and made a dash for the exit - however immoral and dangerous such behavior may be (obviously not condoning that; I wear my passport, phone and wallet on my body during takeoff and landing so I can leave the rest behind if it comes down to it).
Q400 E175 E190 CRJ7 CRJ9 CRJX MD88 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 B733 B73G B738 B739 B748 B764 B772 B77W B788 B789
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW IAD YYZ SJO PTY
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:56 am

25.09.2019 Barnaul, Russia
Boeing-767
334pax+10 crew.

TOGA after touchdown, landing with hot brakes (unclear, may be jam)
wheel fire.

evacuation through rafts. started with good order, but than some smoke from wheel enter cabin.
49 minor injuries, including one spinal taken to hospital and a pair of light bones fractures.

no video, only passengers rumors about panic, may be somedoby has been pushed out from raft.


total evacuation time reported as 3 min.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:01 am

bgm wrote:
Of course it's going to affect* evacuations when you have Americans getting fatter and fatter, and seat pitch getting tighter and tighter. The simple fact is it will take each passenger longer to get out of their seat, not to mention there are now more people to evacuate through the same exits. So the 90 seconds requirement may be harder to maintain. Curious to see what the results are.


Juast wondering - are these evacuation tests carried out with a representative sample of the population with regard to size and age? Or can manufacturers hire, say, a bunch of local field and track teams to carry out the test?
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:05 am

I don’t think the approach would be to certify “x” as the minimum pitch. I think regulators might say “y” the the minimum distance between the front of the seat squab and the nearest part of the seat back in front. The important thing, if we’re talking about safety, is having a clear space to move through in a hurry. 31” in a 1980s seat is very different to 31” on an Acro seat. Pitch is not consistent between seat models, so a poor choice for a safety regulation.

Posters need to be clear if they are conflating safety with comfort. If we are really taking about safety, seat manufacturers and airlines will simply select a seat with a short seat base. Careful what you wish for...
 
SpoonNZ
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:22 am

Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:34 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
In a country where 1 out of 3 is obese, seat width does matter when it comes to safety.
That means that on a B787 with 3-3-3 seating, you have 100% chance of an obese person occupying a set of three.

That is not how this works at all! Actual number is more like 70% (1-0.667^3)
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1017
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:50 am

Nothing will change until a real -word incident demonstrates the current standards are insufficient.
You can simulate until the cows come home, nothing will be as reliable as real world data from a real life incident.

The current standards would appear to be sufficient, as no incident has caused fatalities because of them.

For those screaming, but what about the likes of Spirit, Ryanair, Southwest, etc squeezing more and more in. The seating configs they use are tested and certified before they can use them, if they weren't they couldn't use them.

Listen to the briefings, make a note of your surroundings, follow the instructions and in the unlikely event you're involved in an incident, you'll more than likely be just fine.
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 560
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: FAA testing if airplane seats are too close to effect safe evacuation

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:52 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Nothing will change until a real -word incident demonstrates the current standards are insufficient.
You can simulate until the cows come home, nothing will be as reliable as real world data from a real life incident.

The current standards would appear to be sufficient, as no incident has caused fatalities because of them.

For those screaming, but what about the likes of Spirit, Ryanair, Southwest, etc squeezing more and more in. The seating configs they use are tested and certified before they can use them, if they weren't they couldn't use them.

Listen to the briefings, make a note of your surroundings, follow the instructions and in the unlikely event you're involved in an incident, you'll more than likely be just fine.

this year we have this demonstration.

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